On the Two Fundamental Issues of SWTOR's Success

[Shaede]

Got as far as the OP saying the changes made recently in WoW are "advances" and improvements. That must be why WoW is bleeding subscriptions every month since Cataclysm's launch....

 

If you had bothered to read further, or paid attention to the post, you might have noticed that I said that not all of the changes (in either genre) have been positive (for everyone). Heck, take a look at Dragon Age II. There are certainly issues with Cataclysm and beyond that demand attention. This thread isn't about why or why not World of Warcraft will succeed in the future, though. It's an analysis of SWTOR as it relates to its main sources of inspiration. If you paid attention to my argument, you would have noticed that Cataclysm's specific features are irrelevant to SWTOR, as SWTOR does not take inspiration from a WoW model that new (even if, in the future, it could learn from Cataclysm's mistakes).

 

It's short-sighted to overlook features such as automated group finders or dual specs that are in high demand from SWTOR fans because of their success in WoW. Whether or not you like all these demands is beside the point, really.

 

yet another "waaaaahhh WoW has this, you must have it too to be good" drooling.

 

You literally wrote a convoluted wall of text relating two entirely different games to another entirely different game and why one of them needs to apparently be like the other two. Yea i mean ok.

 

Read slower and use a dictionary if you don't understand some of the words.

 

(These kinds of responses are inevitable, I guess)

 

Thoughful post. Posting to rate.

 

Appreciated!

Edited January 3, 2012 by Shaede

[inseeisyou]

TL;DR

 

If you want your post to be taken seriously and read objectively, a little tip I would provide for you is don't lead off by calling folks who enjoy the game "zealots".

[Shaede]

TL;DR

 

If you want your post to be taken seriously and read objectively, a little tip I would provide for you is don't lead off by calling folks who enjoy the game "zealots".

 

Perhaps you could quote where I said that people who enjoy SWTOR are zealots? I don't remember writing that.

[Aryzyra]

Nice posts. Agree about the light/dark and companion affection issues. Most concerned with the functional issue of ability bloat. Development is conceptually behind on that front.

[Merced]

You deign to tell me i need a dictionary when you make the rather flawed logical assumptions that any feature is "in demand" when you have no means to even begin to prove that. The same features that arguably took the soul out of WoW are the ones you're so fervently championing to be included in to this game. You won't even go so far as to say these things are why WoW is successful or why it will remain so but demand they be added to SWTOR or it will suffer as a consequence. Ridiculous.

[HavenAE]

Part 1: The Dated Nature of the Game

 

For reference, Knights of the Old Republic was released in 2003. Its sequel came out at the very end of 2004, less than one month after the initial release of World of Warcraft that November. That makes this genre, in its original form, about 8 years old. In that time, both genres have evolved vastly. SWTOR was officially announced in October 2008, though the game had apparently been in some development for at least 2 years by that point. This puts the design phase somewhere around 2006, just before the release of World of Warcraft's first expansion in January 2007 and Mass Effect just a month later. Inspiration from both Mass Effect and Burning Crusade can be seen all over SWTOR.

 

The Burning Crusade made some new changes to World of Warcraft on release. Questing was organized into "hubs" more efficiently than in the "vanilla" world, and new "mini-game" quests were added to break up the normal kill quests. Also, daily quests were added for the first time for the more casual players at the level cap. We see all of these features prominately in SWTOR.

 

Mass Effect cleaned up the dialogue scenes from KOTOR, adding the familiar rotary dialogue menu now seen in SWTOR. Like Mass Effect, the options were organized with the "good" choices often at the top and the "bad" ones at the bottom. Sub-menus were placed on the left side of the menu, if available.

 

SWTOR is largely a combination of The Burning Crusade and Mass Effect with some exceptions. More about this in part 2.

 

 

 

And this is what people need to understand when saying, Oh this game isn't current.

 

Think of how MMOs are developed. In 2006 this game was starting to come together. decisions were made on what it would include and how they would go about forming a foundation that would be built upon POST LAUNCH.

 

Because thats how MMOs operate, they build a foundation launch it, then build upwards from there. People have either forgotten that or didn't know it to begin with. Regardless of which that is EXECTLY what happens with EVERY-SINGLE-MMO every to be launched. Personally I'm going to go with the lattrer reason because WoW brought a lot of people into this genre that know absolutely nothing, although they like to think they do.

 

 

Anyway back to the point.

 

When you are developing something you have to have a cutoff point. This cutoff point is necessary because if you don't have it, development goes on indefinitely and you never get the foundation launched, trust me I've been there.

 

You have to make decisions at earlier stages on what is going to go into a game and after that you don't add much more beyond your own spin on how you think things should work. You instead go heavily into building phase. Bioware has added another phase that obviously included heavy storyboarding and plot development, as well as all of the voice-over work.

 

That's not an ecuse, but it's a reason. So when you go raging about how this game is ridiculous in that it doesn't have all the aspects of every other new MMO out there that were hurriedly slapped together (rift, aion, AoC, ect..) remember when this game's early design period was.

[HelluvaJedi]

I completely agree. The game is good but you can tell that Bioware did not have a clear idea of what kind of game they wanted to make.

 

When you look at their more recent games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect the difference is clear. The "BioWare" game elements in SWTOR pale in comparison to those from DA and ME, and in some ways even to KOTOR itself.

 

SWTOR can be something special, but I believe it lacks focus at this point in time.

Edited January 3, 2012 by HelluvaJedi

[Xcore]

Great post, congratulations to the OP on (I dare say) the best and most valuable post I have ever seen on swtor.com (pre and post wipe).

 

Thank you for the read, very accurate and insightful.

[Shaede]

Nice posts. Agree about the light/dark and companion affection issues. Most concerned with the functional issue of ability bloat. Development is conceptually behind on that front.

 

That's another good point, and I think, comes packaged with UI issues. At this moment, SWTOR doesn't seem equipped to deal with it, but it's something that could easily be implemented within the next year.

 

You deign to tell me i need a dictionary when you make the rather flawed logical assumptions that any feature is "in demand" when you have no means to even begin to prove that. The same features that arguably took the soul out of WoW are the ones you're so fervently championing to be included in to this game. You won't even go so far as to say these things are why WoW is successful or why it will remain so but demand they be added to SWTOR or it will suffer as a consequence. Ridiculous.

 

I'm not sure how to respond to this, or if I even should. I'm not here to get into petty arguments with others who read whatever they want into my posts. It's obvious that you're very passionate about this subject and you perceive me as, for some reason, attacking SWTOR or championing something that you find vile. I recommend that you take a step back and look at what I actually said, because I can assure you, that I never once suggested that SWTOR continue to emulate WoW. Again, I recommend you read what I wrote slowly and carefully before accusing me of holding positions that I don't. You're just attacking phantoms.

 

When you are developing something you have to have a cutoff point. This cutoff point is necessary because if you don't have it, development goes on indefinitely and you never get the foundation launched, trust me I've been there.

 

You have to make decisions at earlier stages on what is going to go into a game and after that you don't add much more beyond your own spin on how you think things should work. You instead go heavily into building phase. Bioware has added another phase that obviously included heavy storyboarding and plot development, as well as all of the voice-over work.

 

I agree with everything you just said. Part of the point of this thread was to highlight how long ago this game was actually designed. That is precisely why it feels dated. But, understand or not, that's still an issue. Bioware now has to race to innovate this game and make it relevant in a market that's moved on. They didn't make a bad MMO by any means, but they didn't revolutionize it out the door, either (such as Guild Wars 2 claims to do). Honestly, with the size an MMO is, it's hard to get away with revolutionizing anything (Arena.net has had an unprecedented amount of autonomy).

Edited January 3, 2012 by Shaede

[Casil]

Great read. I've said previously that I can't shake the feeling that Bioware developed their MMO using a "how-to" guide that's 5-6 years out of date. It's great to see it so nicely articulated and explained.

 

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game for what it is, of course. I'm just really hoping that going forward, Bioware takes a page out of Trion's (RIFT) playbook and releases substantive content on a blazingly fast schedule. Rift's gameplay may not be everyone's cup of tea, but you can't deny they introduce new contents and mechanics to their game at a rate that puts most studios to shame.

[Zombull]

Good grief, OP. TL;DR doesn't even begin to say it. Stop typing so much and go play.

[Shaede]

Great post, congratulations to the OP on (I dare say) the best and most valuable post I have ever seen on swtor.com (pre and post wipe).

 

Thank you for the read, very accurate and insightful.

 

Thanks! That's a huge compliment!

 

I've been meaning to write something like this since last summer, but I never got around to it. I'm glad I held off until after the wipe!

 

Good grief, OP. TL;DR doesn't even begin to say it. Stop typing so much and go play.

 

Thanks for not reading and responding anyway.

 

Just be warned; any thought developed enough to have much value is going to take some attention span in order to access.

[Tewnam]

I don't see why not. One can't discuss a game's mechanics without discussing the game's mechanics. If the mechanics come from a previous game, it can be helpful to discuss what worked or didn't work for that game.

 

Also, part 2 is up. Thanks for the comments, everyone (if you actually read my posts).

 

You're not comparing it to WoW because of a mechanics basis. If that were true, then you would go further back to games from which WoW's mechanics were derived. You're comparing it to WoW either because WoW is popular or because WoW is all you know. WoW, like its own successor MMORPGs, is an amalgamation of mechanics from previous games. The problem is that far more people were introduced to the MMORPG market through WoW, and they have little or no knowledge of those predecessor games which influenced WoW's design.

 

Also, just because a mechanic doesn't work for a particular game doesn't mean that it won't work for another. Additionally, as you say, WoW may have "evolved" out and developed new mechanics, but there is no conclusive evidence that those new mechanics were a benefit to the game as a whole. From a simplistic view, the playerbase of the game has only declined since the release of Dungeon Finder. Would you, therefore, then conclude that the "evolution" of Dungeon Finder was a benefit or a detriment to the game? I personally would say that it is a contributory cause, but not a sufficient one.

[Enderbsd]

Thanks for not reading and responding anyway.

 

Just be warned; any thought developed enough to have much value is going to take some attention span in order to access.

 

 

 

 

Look buddy, i understand you alone are the smartest person in the world when it comes to all things MMO (and probably all video games).

 

Lucky for us you decided to take your vast knowledge and expertise and post about it in these forums instead of applying it to your own video game(s) you create. We all know that if you actually created any sort of game yourself, or were in charge of any sort of video game business that it would be the best in the world with your foresight on board.

 

So please keep critiquing people you do not agree with by assuming anyone that doesn't instantly recognize how amazingly awesome you are; from reading your multi-page novel of opinions.

 

 

 

 

Also: Cool story bro

 

 

inb4 grammar / spelling retorts

[Shaede]

I'm going to need to break your post down and respond to it in fragments.

 

You're not comparing it to WoW because of a mechanics basis. If that were true, then you would go further back to games from which WoW's mechanics were derived. You're comparing it to WoW either because WoW is popular or because WoW is all you know.

 

To quote what I said about this:

[sWTOR] leans heavily on WoW's quests hubs, talent trees, instances, raids, and battlegrounds for support in its new environment. Sure, these all predate WoW in various ways, but this unique combination and application of all these features is still WoW.

 

I picked WoW because the core mechanics of SWTOR are the same as WoW, not because it was popular. It was EA who picked WoW and the model because it was the most successful MMO on the market. You're grasping at straws here and I'm not sure why. In what way are SWTOR's mechanics so fundamentally different from WoW's?

 

WoW, like its own successor MMORPGs, is an amalgamation of mechanics from previous games. The problem is that far more people were introduced to the MMORPG market through WoW, and they have little or no knowledge of those predecessor games which influenced WoW's design.

 

So, are you saying that SWTOR's basic mechanics are from EQ or UO? If so, I would challenge that claim. As I've said multiple times, there is a direct lineage between these games, but SWTOR does not play anything like EQ or UO. Yet, it does play almost exactly like WoW. I don't understand why it's so hard for some people to see the same mechanics supporting both games? Are you blinded by a hatred of WoW? I don't get it.

 

Also, just because a mechanic doesn't work for a particular game doesn't mean that it won't work for another. Additionally, as you say, WoW may have "evolved" out and developed new mechanics, but there is no conclusive evidence that those new mechanics were a benefit to the game as a whole. From a simplistic view, the playerbase of the game has only declined since the release of Dungeon Finder. Would you, therefore, then conclude that the "evolution" of Dungeon Finder was a benefit or a detriment to the game? I personally would say that it is a contributory cause, but not a sufficient one.

 

I never once argued that the changes to either Blizzard's or Bioware's games have all been positive. Where did I say that? A lot of people seem to be finding that claim, but when I look, it's nowhere to be found. I can only find myself saying that both genres have undergone both positive and negative changes.

 

This seems to me like a common misreading from fans who are so against many of WoW current features that they see any mention of them as suggestions to put them into SWTOR. Again, I never suggested that. Instead (and quite opposed to that reading), I suggested that SWTOR innovate into something new.

 

Look buddy, i understand you alone are the smartest person in the world when it comes to all things MMO (and probably all video games).

 

There's a troll in every thread. Here, have a cookie.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Shaede

[Norumaniac]

"As a result, it was easy for Warcraft to evolve into an MMO where the player can become lost in a world larger than themselves. The player could play some unknown human paladin or tauren shaman and get involved in the overarching war for dominance between the various factions. The important characters be NPCs rather than the players themselves. The player could become a single unit in a much larger fight, much like an RTS.

 

The Bioware games have much more difficulty converting into an MMO. If the player is the central force that everything revolves around, the world as a result feels much smaller. It's more difficult to be immersed in a game world filled with other players, who themselves, are points from which the universe also revolves around. Seeing a group of bounty hunters, for example, who are all "Grand Champion of the Great Hunt" reduces the player's own accomplishment of the feat to near meaninglessness. It becomes a mere rank that marks your progression in the game (imagine, for instance, if there were many Shepards running around the galaxy. The Illusive Man would be pleased, but the player would feel his role to be undermined)."

 

Completely agree.

 

 

"If you want to get more powerful, you have to kill lots and lots of things.

 

Though that might sound like a dark side only route to power, it's actually the only route to power available to any character, light or dark, in an MMORPG. Sure, some missions have you killing droids, and perhaps that's not immoral. Certainly, though, many quests have you killing sentient beings."

 

Again, i agree.

 

Great post, ty.

[Shaede]

Great post, ty.

 

Your welcome!

 

I'm glad there are those out there that understand that I am not trying to make an argument for why SWTOR should be like WoW or why SWTOR sucks. This is a topic I love discussing (game philosophy), I just don't like having to argue against words that are put in my mouth.

 

Also, thanks to everyone who rated this thread! It's a nice ego boost. =)

[Vihazur]

You're not comparing it to WoW because of a mechanics basis. If that were true, then you would go further back to games from which WoW's mechanics were derived. You're comparing it to WoW either because WoW is popular or because WoW is all you know. WoW, like its own successor MMORPGs, is an amalgamation of mechanics from previous games. The problem is that far more people were introduced to the MMORPG market through WoW, and they have little or no knowledge of those predecessor games which influenced WoW's design.

 

 

I've been playing MMOs since UO, and I don't know if this is as true as people make it out to be. Before WoW, MMOs were all quite different. There were no quest hubs, for example. There was barely any questing at all. WoW didn't copy any particular MMO, so much as take elements from all different MMOs, from EQ, to AO, to DAOC, and the put a unique spin on it.

 

 

Yeah, I'm saying WoW was somewhat unique, which I know might be hard to swallow these days, but I think it's true, at least compared to all the MMOs that imitated its mechanics, afterwards. WoW was a lot more different from any of the games it took ideas from, than games like TOR or Rift are different from WoW.

 

 

To the OP, just want to chime in with another 5 stars. A lot of good points, and very well written - surprisingly easy to read, given the length.

[Shaede]

I've been playing MMOs since UO, and I don't know if this is as true as people make it out to be. Before WoW, MMOs were all quite different. There were no quest hubs, for example. There was barely any questing at all. WoW didn't copy any particular MMO, so much as take elements from all different MMOs, from EQ, to AO, to DAOC, and the put a unique spin on it.

 

 

Yeah, I'm saying WoW was somewhat unique, which I know might be hard to swallow these days, but I think it's true, at least compared to all the MMOs that imitated its mechanics, afterwards. WoW was a lot more different from any of the games it took ideas from, than games like TOR or Rift are different from WoW.

 

Exactly! You can always tell whose followed the industry and who hasn't from comments like this. Lots of people seem to think that what WoW is now is what an MMORPG is. They also seem to think that what MMORPGs were before WoW were a lot like WoW. The truth is, WoW introduced an enormous number of innovations. Sure, it was designed primarily by fans of games like EQ, but the steps it took beyond its predecessors cannot be overstated.

 

WoW had the first open persistent online world that was not segmented by loading screens. The technology was absolutely revolutionary when it first appeared. Now people just yawn at it. WoW also standardized questing as we know it today. MMORPGs simply did not have the kinds of steamlined quest systems we see packaged in every MMO today. Those only scratches the surface!

 

Guild Wars always stands as a great example of an alternative MMORPG. No talent trees, no questing, no persistent online world. Guild Wars 2 even promises to overcome the trinity of tank, dps, and healer. This is the kind of innovation that WoW had on release. Because of its popularity, WoW is seen as a "template" for the whole genre, when in fact, it's always been innovating the genre with the typical Blizzard polish and resulting success.

 

To the OP, just want to chime in with another 5 stars. A lot of good points, and very well written - surprisingly easy to read, given the length.

 

Much appreciated! I'm glad you found it easy to read. One of the reasons I post on forums it to delve into interesting (and often complex or technical) topics without using too much jargon and with as much clarity as possible. As you can see from some of the replies, people are stubborn about reading things into what is written no matter what you do. I'm glad that you found it enjoyable and easy enough to get through!

Edited January 3, 2012 by Shaede

[Blegvad]

Absolutely outstanding OP.

 

Unfortunately, this sort of thinking needed be happening starting in 06. This ship has sailed and it's clearly going to take a considerable amount of time for this game to play like a current generation MMO.

 

Sad really.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Blegvad

[Shaede]

Absolutely outstanding OP.

 

Unfortunately, this sort of thinking needed be happening starting in 06. This ship has sailed and it's clearly going to take a considerable amount of time for this game to play like a current generation MMO.

 

Sad really.

 

I completely agree. As I mentioned in another reply, that's exactly what Arena.net has done with Guild Wars 2. They want to redefine the genre, and that sounds genius to me. Why take on Blizzard when you can cater to a slightly different market? Dodge that bullet, I say.

 

The problem is that Bioware is funded by EA, and so they are going to do what is percieved as safe. WoW's model is seen as safe despite half a decade of failed WoW-clones. I don't think EA's (or any other game company's) investors quite understand what is safe and what is not (take a look at the American economy for proof of that!). Perhaps it's because the market is new, or, perhaps it's because investors don't really have the time to get into anything as consuming as an MMO. Whatever the reason, it's causing hundreds of millions of dollars to get squandered on failed projects.

 

I'm still unsure of whether or not SWTOR has the same doomed fate. Though there has been almost no innovation in what might one day be called "vanilla SWTOR", that doesn't mean that this style of game cannot grow in to such a thing. For that to happen, though, this first year will have to have updates that really set SWTOR apart from the other MMOs on the market. Otherwise, it'll wear down as fast as a single player game.

[Xcore]

Rated, 5...

 

Also, this deserves more time on page 1...

[Blegvad]

I'm still unsure of whether or not SWTOR has the same doomed fate. Though there has been almost no innovation in what might one day be called "vanilla SWTOR", that doesn't mean that this style of game cannot grow in to such a thing. For that to happen, though, this first year will have to have updates that really set SWTOR apart from the other MMOs on the market. Otherwise, it'll wear down as fast as a single player game.

 

 

That would require some evidence that they are willing to think outside the box and/or be ready to quickly bring their game up to current standards. I'm not convinced that this is the case based upon the ULTRA cautious approach they have taken to development, deployment and community relations.

 

Personally, I'm at a place now where the only type of game I can play is a super casual one, so SWTOR fits the bill for the moment and I'm going to stick it out until the first major content patch. If that patch does not bring the UI, LFD and the GTN up to current standards, I'm done.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Blegvad

[JRRNeiklot]

If Bioware based TOR on the BC version of WoW, that's nothing but a good thing. WoW has gone nowhere but downhill since BC.

[Shaede]

If Bioware based TOR on the BC version of WoW, that's nothing but a good thing. WoW has gone nowhere but downhill since BC.

 

I was studying abroad for much of BC, so I didn't experience it nearly as much as vanilla or WoTLK (both of which I was a hardcore raider). WoTLK made a lot of changes to the game, as though Blizzard was experimenting, that had radically varied responses. The dungeon finder in particular got (and still has) a very mixed reaction (even on these boards). I never used the raid finder (my guild was far too elitist for something like that), but I heard fairly positive reviews.

 

I quit just before Cataclysm for reasons unrelated to WoW, and looking back, I'd have to say that WoTLK was probably Blizzard's most successful expansion despite any controversy. One reason Cataclysm wasn't much of a success was the attempt to return to the kind of gaming environment in Burning Crusade, but by that point, many players were used to the accessibility of Lich King and didn't actually want the kinds of challenges players got before then.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Shaede