Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Xcore]

First, I agree with the core subject of these threads and there's nothing I can add that hasn't already been said. I've experienced the ability delays during beta and release and I'd like to see them fixed for all classes.

 

However, your statement that all you see is indifference and incompetence caught my eye. I work for a major software company and have a better understanding of how decisions are made on the inside than most.

 

In general, the designers, developers, and, more importantly, the project managers, aren't necessarily indifferent to their customer base, but development schedules are planned weeks and months ahead of time and unless the bug is catastrophic (i.e. like a forgotten time bomb held over from beta that unexpectedly locks everyone out simultaneously) the development team will focus on their milestones and pencil in feature changes and bug fixes to future milestones.

 

No v1 software is ever fully baked. Sales and marketing set the release schedule, not the developers. To get v1 out the door, some key features are always pushed back to the next release because they just aren't stable enough and need more time. It's the nature of the beast. In my experience, v3 is usually what the developers intended v1 to be.

 

As Bioware alluded to, bug fixes are never simple. A fix here has a cascading effect on other aspects of the application and all of that has to be mapped out, spec'd, coded, and tested; all the while making sure the fixes are compatible with the ongoing development. This takes time and introduces complications that have to be worked through.

 

For good or bad, companies are not going to make their development schedules or list of updated/new features public, let alone publicly guestimate when bug fixes are going live. Could you imagine the subscriber uproar if the feature or bug fix doesn't go live when promised?

 

I'm not saying people shouldn't feel frustrated. We, as subscribers, have invested time and grown attached to the game so the lack of control over things like bug fixes is intense. However, it's silly to think that Bioware is indifferent because, from a business perspective, they provide a service and that service will only be successful if their subscribers are happy so it stands to reason that they want to fix these issues, too. It just takes time.

 

Oh, I fully agree. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you are saying. The indifference and incompetence is primarily directed at the lack of communication. Don't give me that excuse of "not wanting to stir things up", "not wanting to respond until fully ready etc."

 

Ignoring the single largest series of threads in this fashion is inexcusable. If this were Amy other line of business such action would be impossible. "Incredibly" poor of Bioware how this thread is handled. Where some might say I sound "entitled" or "obnoxious" I should point out that it Is the contrary. Through lack of proper communication of such a vocal and well supported thread(s) displays itself as the epitome of "obnoxious", almost as though they are "entitled" to my/our monthly fee.

 

Very poor display of indifference. Incompetence comes in once you realize that Bioware actually and honestly believes that they are able to successfully run an MMO in this fashion.

[ktkenshinx]

I don't understand why people are accusing Bioware of not looking into this problem when a Bioware representative has actually said that they are actively looking into it.

 

This is one of the few threads that Bioware has directly addressed. This should be heartening! I will continue to post in this thread encouraging people to look to the Bioware response as a source of hope and strength. Complaining about the issue was decisive early on because it rallied a Bioware reaction, a very specific and targeted reaction at that. But now it is just unfair to expect Bioware to offer a day-by-day, blow-by-blow account of their programming attempts at fixing the problem.

 

Bioware is working on it. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt; the game hasn't been out for a month and within a week Bioware has already said it was going to work to fix this. This makes me optimistic, and it should make others optimistic as well.

[Radagastimus]

If the game is truly designed as you describe, how many subs will be lost in the first six months? If they informed players that combat is working as intended how many players will be lost in the first month?.

 

Indeed more communication between development teams and customers is really poor at this point. Community will suffer because of this and people will go away. Same thing happened when STO launched and it did not get any better until they finally managed to change executive producer of that game. After that things started to happen and game really improved quite much.

 

Having cool animations is great but when it is made like they are on SWTOR at moment it is no good design. WOW gameplay feels fluidic and it also has autoattack what this game does not seem to have at all and i miss autoattack at times. WOW animation cuts when next spell is cast is not that good thing but the combat works. One game that i could name that has managed to make animations versus cooldowns work very well is AION combat feels fluidic and its also spectacular since animations are great. Combo system in AION is also pretty good since it lessens the need of too many keybinding altho in other hand it sometimes make it feel bit of button mashing. I also expected better graphics on game that launches on 2011 but since game is otherwise entertaining its not that bad since its still decent.

[Zakumene]

Where some might say I sound "entitled" or "obnoxious" I should point out that it Is the contrary.

 

 

The sense of your entitlement and obnoxiousness comes from your incessant demanding of Bioware to officially respond to you and your thread and fix your problems now now now.

 

You police this thread 24/7 constantly seeking validation. Good luck with that.

[Blackfriar]

No but your comment sure is.

 

This game reacts no different than games like LoTRO and others. If you like WoW, which btw is a dumbed down version of most combat systems, then too bad. This isn't WoW and I personally do not have problems with the combat system.

 

No. I played LOTRO for years. I've got a full stable of characters all at Level 75 and all fully raid spec'd. I've raided all the big raids and done it all. But after two years, all my intial wave of friends had quit, all of my second wave of friends had quit and even my guild leader and her husband (both lifetime members) hadn't been on for 45 days...

 

I needed a break and there was nothing left there for me... So here I am at SWTOR and the combat is like mud. I die because of delays. I need to interrupt and my force kick doesn't go off half the time.

 

Many times when I cast a spell the animation is noticeably delayed or the spell is noticably delayed. The trooper Mortar Fire animation is grossly out-of-sync. All through combat abilities, results and animations are all grossly out-of-sync. Or they just don't fire. Or the cool-down doesn't register and they can't be used. Or, even less fun, they've cooled down but the icon says they're still in cool-down and have many minutes to go even though the cooldown is just a couple of seconds.

 

Then there is the healing. It's like Rune-Keeper healing in LOTRO. Hard to master as it's anticipatory. But in LOTRO you can anticipate who's going to need healing -- the tank. Well, here you don't know because at least a third of the tanks can't tank. Not that they can't tank in other games. Just not in this game because the aggro-management tools of the tanks is second-rate. Especially for the Jugs/Guards.

 

So we need fast heals, like a mini. Where we can target and go. Not build up... But none of my healers really has a good set of fast heals. Even when I move up the skill trees.

 

So, like LOTRO? Sorry. LOTRO is head-and-shoulders above SWTOR in mechanics.

[Zakumene]

No. I played LOTRO for years. I've got a full stable of characters all at Level 75 and all fully raid spec'd. I've raided all the big raids and done it all. But after two years, all my intial wave of friends had quit, all of my second wave of friends had quit and even my guild leader and her husband (both lifetime members) hadn't been on for 45 days...

 

I needed a break and there was nothing left there for me... So here I am at SWTOR and the combat is like mud. I die because of delays. I need to interrupt and my force kick doesn't go off half the time.

 

Many times when I cast a spell the animation is noticeably delayed or the spell is noticably delayed. The trooper Mortar Fire animation is grossly out-of-sync. All through combat abilities, results and animations are all grossly out-of-sync. Or they just don't fire. Or the cool-down doesn't register and they can't be used. Or, even less fun, they've cooled down but the icon says they're still in cool-down and have many minutes to go even though the cooldown is just a couple of seconds.

 

Then there is the healing. It's like Rune-Keeper healing in LOTRO. Hard to master as it's anticipatory. But in LOTRO you can anticipate who's going to need healing -- the tank. Well, here you don't know because at least a third of the tanks can't tank. Not that they can't tank in other games. Just not in this game because the aggro-management tools of the tanks is second-rate. Especially for the Jugs/Guards.

 

So we need fast heals, like a mini. Where we can target and go. Not build up... But none of my healers really has a good set of fast heals. Even when I move up the skill trees.

 

So, like LOTRO? Sorry. LOTRO is head-and-shoulders above SWTOR in mechanics.

 

You should try Skyrim. ALso, something about an arrow to the knee?

[Drakaras]

Ah. So it's not just me. I thought it was just my perceptions of things... I was even wondering if something had gone wrong with my computer. I didn't spend all that money buying an over-clocked epean to play like I'm wading through knee-deep mud in the 100-meter dash....

 

So, thanks for the thread, this was good to know.

 

I'm so happy that I've found this thread as well. I though it was something wrong with my settings... I've tried different settings for queued skills... Checked my internet connection, FPS, lag spikes, etc.

The one thing I knew is that something didnt feel right at all...

As a former DAOC, LOTRO, WoW, AoC, Warhammer, Rift... player I knew something was wrong with combat but I couldnt say what... ehehe, after 10 years playing MMOs looks like I'm still a noob...

Thanks so much OP.

I hope they fix this very soon.

[WarTornPanda]

Distraction

Instant

Range: 10m

Interrupts the target's current action and prevents that ability from being used for 4 seconds.

 

Was using this today and I realized that not only does this automatically interrupt whatever you're doing, but it will instantly cast regardless of your characters current animation.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most classes get an ability like this? Should check it out.

 

That being said, there is also a datacron in Alderaan where you need to ride the manta ray to get to it. As I was riding up, I noticed that my camera wouldn't automatically track back to center behind my character.

 

It seems to me that both of these issues could be remedied fairly quickly if Bioware wanted to do it.

Edited January 3, 2012 by WarTornPanda

[emptyage]

I also would like to see more of a response from the developers on this issue.

 

Having raided in WotLK heroics, I understand the need to have a tight combat system. I miss the way it felt to have my rogue's abilities set up and executed so precisely. It was truly a pleasure.

 

In this game, I thought the problem was just a new class that I would have to get used to, and that was why I was having so much trouble in PvP especially. It was only until I read this thread that I put things together and realized that my mounting issues were part of the same overarching problem.

 

I hope this get's resolved quickly. It may only deeply affect a small amount of the player base that wants to really excel with the combat system. However, that small group has a profound impact on the success and failure of the game. Watching amazing PvP and PvE videos created by professionals encourages casual gamers to try to raise their game. These are the people that created websites like shadowcraft and elitist jerks. Without this small minority, websites like this will be few and far between. These are the people who inspired me to start raiding. They should be heard!

 

-Hench, lvl 30 Sniper

Edited January 3, 2012 by emptyage

[Zakumene]

Having raided in WotLK heroics

 

 

LOL'd when I read this; EVERYONE raided in WoltLK heroics, they were a joke.

[Blackfriar]

....

 

It just appeared on the JK that because all abilities were melee with some animations involved it was horrendous. There is one ability (I forget its name) that you get early on that is channelled. God forbid you don't let that thing finish before moving because it is essentially a channelled DOT. The last "tick" is constantly not applied (because I move when the cast bar finishes).

 

Yeah. I know what you're talking about as I blow it quite frequently thinking it's done when it's not...

[Xcore]

Instant cast means when it casts - its instant, so no cast bar, so no need to stand still while casting it. Does it say "as soon as you press this button the buff is applied and the animation following it is just for show" in the tooltip? It still fits the description for "instant cast". The buff lining up with the animation is broken how exactly? Can you still use another ability immediately after the invoked GCD is over?

 

If you are pressing a button and committing 1.5 seconds of GCD - then explain how it matters if the damage/buff is applied in the beginning or the end of the 1.5 seconds - since you keep the beneficial mobility associated with the "instant" portion of the ability.

 

Sure it matters: everything matters (Blizzard focuses on such details in fact)

 

1) You're racing for World First on X Boss

2) This is 4 night of attempts, 300 wipes so far

3) Phase 4, 12 minutes in, enrages timer any second now. He's at 2%...

4) Your MT dies, not yet enraged Boss. You've never gotten this far! (no-one has)

5) You battlerez him during combat instantly (well...delay but w/e) because you're amazing!

6) He gets up without any buffs, taunts the boss back onto himself as to not wipe the raid due to the boss' frontal AOE breath.

7) Raid obviously needs to quickly rebuff their MT.

8) However due to animation delay on the Instant cast buffs, tank dies instantly.

 

9) You throw your keyboard through your fishtank - fish flopping everywhere now.

10) In rage, you punch your $300+ monitor, it is now broken.

11) You rage on Vent, calling everyone a f***** and blame the healers

 

12) 8 min have passed... You're bleeding and the fish are dead and you regret the monitor ordeal.

13) Anonymous hops on your vent channel, "Hey guys, X guild just downed X boss!, trolololol"

 

14) You quit SW:TOR

 

 

My point is - ZERO POINT FIVE SECONDS IS A ******* LONG TIME

 

 

Hey, are you a Bioware developer by any chance?

Edited January 3, 2012 by Xcore

[Monkertrol]

Hey, are you a Bioware developer by any chance?

 

nah, he's just a fan boy that trolls these forums looking for anything that challenges them or this game.

 

This issue is vital to the success of this title, and the way it's been largely ignored is very frustrating.

[sdream]

Hey, are you a Bioware developer by any chance?

 

Hehe, I'm surprised you haven't learned to ignore this guy yet?

[Ahlin]

LOL'd when I read this; EVERYONE raided in WoltLK heroics, they were a joke.

 

btw he probably meant hardmodes. Which, if you did them as they come out, was quite difficult.

[Merouk]

The fix for this is, unfortunately, to redo all the animations to match the casting times and durations for a lot of the abilities:

 

- If the tooltip says it's instant, the animation should instantly deliver the effect; no more jumping up first, flexing, crouching, whatever.

 

- Animation should last exactly as long as the ability cast time, otherwise.

 

To go along with this fix, they also need to queue up target information with each ability. For example, if we queue up dmg-on-target, self-heal, focustarget-shield, each spell should queue up with the target it's intended for, so that we can change targets while stuff is still in the casting queue.

 

Unfortunately, changing the animations requires WAY too much effort on their part, which is why they won't do it. Which is why the game will lose subscriptions and fail - they all like to believe it won't, but the shoddiness of the combat system makes me not want to group or PVP at all, and I'll go through the various storylines in a couple months. After that, if the combat isn't fun, screw it.

[Blackfriar]

I have noticed this phenomenon from time to time as well, although I play a Sage (caster) and it seems far more irksome for melee fighters. I urge everyone to be patient as the development team irons out this issue as it is NOT a simple fix and will require a large investment of time and resources.

 

When you're doing the 'pebble throw' do you ever have no pebble-animation but get the dps? I've had that quite a few times on my sage. It really throws me off my game because I'm trying to figure out what's going on instead of keeping my focus on the combat...

[Lightforce]

Just want to thank you for making this incredible good post, it explains all the "problems" i v been having while healing hard mode. I senced there was a problem but couldn t quite put my finger on it.

Biowere plz make this your top priority, cause nothing is more important then this!!!

Not even queues, and i am a guy who has to wait 45min+ sometimes, just to point out how important this is!!

[Tinkersw]

Sure it matters: everything matters (Blizzard focuses on such details in fact)

 

1) You're racing for World First on X Boss

2) This is 4 night of attempts, 300 wipes so far

3) Phase 4, 12 minutes in, enrages timer any second now. He's at 2%...

4) Your MT dies, not yet enraged Boss. You've never gotten this far! (no-one has)

5) You battlerez him during combat instantly (well...delay but w/e) because you're amazing!

6) He gets up without any buffs, taunts the boss back onto himself as to not wipe the raid due to the boss' frontal AOE breath.

7) Raid obviously needs to quickly rebuff their MT.

8) However due to animation delay on the Instant cast buffs, tank dies instantly.

 

9) You throw your keyboard through your fishtank - fish flopping everywhere now.

10) In rage, you punch your $300+ monitor, it is now broken.

11) You rage on Vent, calling everyone a f***** and blame the healers

12) 8 min have passed... You're bleeding and the fish are dead and you regret the monitor ordeal.

13) Anonymous hops on your vent channel, "Hey guys, X guild just downed X boss!, trolololol"

 

14) You quit SW:TOR

 

 

My point is - ZERO POINT FIVE SECONDS IS A ******* LONG TIME

 

 

Hey, are you a Bioware developer by any chance?

 

Funny!!!

I have pretty much given up Xcore, feel bad but I dont see any hope here.

[AlexRose]

8) However due to animation delay on the Instant cast buffs, tank dies instantly.

 

Lol. Yes but at least it was a nice animation (an he died with stile - like goblins in wow).

Edited January 3, 2012 by AlexRose

[TheHeadCapper]

Why can't people post something without putting in a sensationalist title.

 

Not even going to read the post, the title scream narrcasicm.

[AlexRose]

Why can't people post something without putting in a sensationalist title.

 

Not even going to read the post, the title scream narrcasicm.

 

So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish.

[Zakumene]

btw he probably meant hardmodes. Which, if you did them as they come out, was quite difficult.

 

EVERYONE did WOTLK hardmodes. WOTLK was the epitome of "loot pinatas".

[Zakumene]

Sure it matters: everything matters (Blizzard focuses on such details in fact)

 

1) You're racing for World First on X Boss

2) This is 4 night of attempts, 300 wipes so far

3) Phase 4, 12 minutes in, enrages timer any second now. He's at 2%...

4) Your MT dies, not yet enraged Boss. You've never gotten this far! (no-one has)

5) You battlerez him during combat instantly (well...delay but w/e) because you're amazing!

6) He gets up without any buffs, taunts the boss back onto himself as to not wipe the raid due to the boss' frontal AOE breath.

7) Raid obviously needs to quickly rebuff their MT.

8) However due to animation delay on the Instant cast buffs, tank dies instantly.

 

9) You throw your keyboard through your fishtank - fish flopping everywhere now.

10) In rage, you punch your $300+ monitor, it is now broken.

11) You rage on Vent, calling everyone a f***** and blame the healers

 

12) 8 min have passed... You're bleeding and the fish are dead and you regret the monitor ordeal.

13) Anonymous hops on your vent channel, "Hey guys, X guild just downed X boss!, trolololol"

 

14) You quit SW:TOR

 

 

My point is - ZERO POINT FIVE SECONDS IS A ******* LONG TIME

 

 

Hey, are you a Bioware developer by any chance?

 

Refresh my memory - which buffs are actually defensive? 5% endurance increase? If you wiped because your tank died and 5% endurance was the difference between win and loss - then you didn't deserve the win.

[cameronelkin]

INSTANT CAMERA MOVEMENT is an issue as-well and in my opinion is just as important as the delay on the abilities.

 

Currently when holding the left or right mouse button down there is acceleration applied to the rotation of the camera and we need an option to turn this off. At the risk of sounding like a wowfan World Of Warcraft has an option to use direct mouse input and this is desperately needed in SWTOR as-well if it is to attract the highly skilled players that form the base of all great mmo's.

 

To describe the problem in detail to someone who may not know what im talking about mouse acceleration causes the camera movement of your character to react to the speed at which you move your mouse as well as the amount that you move it.

 

So if you move your mouse quickly while holding down the mouse button its going turn your character a different amount of degrees then if you move your mouse slowly over the same distance on the mouse-pad.

 

This is very bad as it doesn't allow for a consistent feeling of control and any accuracy of control over the movement of your character but for someone who doesn't know what is causing it then they will probably just put it down to lag.

 

When acceleration is off the same amount of mouse movement on the mouse-pad will always result in the same amount of movement on screen regardless of how fast you move your mouse allowing you to perform consistent turns that feel instant and connected to your mouse.

 

Imaging for a second that the steering wheel in your car turns the wheels of the car a different amount depending on how quickly you turn it and not by how much and you turn it and you might get a better idea of what im talking about.