Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Cyanna]

Signed.

 

How can I be held responsible as a healer when my abilities don't fire when I hit the keys?

 

You no fixy, you no get my money!

[Yestreen]

well my sage has an allegedly instant ability called force wave, but force wave has a 2-3 second animation and the effect does not happen until after animation, and the animation drags on beyond the GCD so i cannot use another ability, even though the GCD says i can.

 

 

Sounds like for this ability BW has a choice: It can either let people cast after the GCD despite the fact the animation has not finished, or they can turn the ability into a 'channeled' spell that ends as soon as the animation ends.

 

They must do one or the other if they want to make the combat feel responsive. Instead, they have decided to do a half-and-half effort and the result is the combat system we have now.

[AlexRose]

I think bioware's intention is to have a slow paced, story based old-school RPG.

 

Honestly I really dont know what their intention is in this regard. I read a 5 days old Q&A with Stephen Reid:

 

Q: Ability Delay. Have you guys discussed this internally, and if so, is there an ETA for a fix on this issue?

 

Hey! It has been discussed internally, and we'll talk about it publicly soon. It's not a simple issue so we don't want to issue a quick, off-the-cuff response.

 

Then someone posted a CS mail how they perceive combat and how nothing is wrong with it ... bah.

[asbalana]

I think bioware's intention is to have a slow paced, story based old-school RPG.

 

I think that if a player can forget PVP exists and never do it, and the PVE content is balanced around the slow, animation watching combat, then The game could be enjoyable, for some.

 

Bioware just needs to make a statement that this is the intention of the game and combat, and delete the GCD timer and delete Off-gcd abilities.

 

I hope that is not true. If so, the game is stillborn. Also the pace of the game and the pace of combat are two different things.

 

I think that I am like almost everyone else who has posted and discussed the issues. I want the game to be a smash and have a long rich life. In the one statement made by the devs in the four incarnations of this thread, it was not said that the game was working as intended. The fact that there were multiple issues was identified.

 

I think that BW is looking into the issue. I don't know if anything will come of it. I think that the lack of comment by BW is due to the facts that there are more than one related issue at play (hard job to fix) and the launch of the game over the Christmas / New Year holiday season.

 

BW has allowed this thread to run over 500 pages. It could have been stopped by one stastement - working as intended.

[ciqq]

/Push

[AERHAE]

You know we have this ability delay problem.

But we also have this problem to where the UI will not respond at all with any command,which leads to the player constantly haveing to reset the UI just to do anything.

This is gamebreaking and incredibly frustrating.

I really dont know which is worse,ability delay or the ability delay to reset the ui just so you can go through more ability delay's

Incredible.

[Khoranth]

I hope that is not true. If so, the game is stillborn. Also the pace of the game and the pace of combat are two different things.

 

I think that I am like almost everyone else who has posted and discussed the issues. I want the game to be a smash and have a long rich life. In the one statement made by the devs in the four incarnations of this thread, it was not said that the game was working as intended. The fact that there were multiple issues was identified.

 

I think that BW is looking into the issue. I don't know if anything will come of it. I think that the lack of comment by BW is due to the facts that there are more than one related issue at play (hard job to fix) and the launch of the game over the Christmas / New Year holiday season.

 

BW has allowed this thread to run over 500 pages. It could have been stopped by one stastement - working as intended.

 

I think they are trying to find the best way to word 'working as intended' in order to keep as many subs as possible, for as long as possible.

 

I don't consider the game stillborn, I would still play it, but then again i think pen & paper RPG's out of a book are fun.

 

Of course, not many people are like me and think that. I see swtor holding at 1-2 million subs, with players who either really love starwars ( and are stubborrn), or enjoy old school RPG's, or both ( like me ).

 

I have no illusion that this game will ever come close to WoW in subs though, not with the way combat is, fast-paced only players will not enjoy this game.

 

i like fast and slow paced games. So as long as i pretend PVP does not exist, get an honest answer from bioware that combat is working as intended, I will stay subb'd.

[Spynnal]

Timing, as they say, is everything. And sadly, timing is a little off in SW:TOR at the moment.

 

Love the game. Won't quit over this. However, eventually, none of their attempts to balance L50 advanced classes will ultimately work if the timed usage of abilities is off for certain moves on certain classes.

 

They can definitely alter the timing, even if it's a large undertaking, if changes in other MMO's over time are any indication.

[Saporah]

It's interesting... NC Soft were having the same problem when testing GW2 but they already fixed it. It's in their blog. Check it out!

 

One of the elements that makes Guild Wars 2 combat feel different from other games is that many skills have their own unique animations, and the skill functionality is often based on the animations themselves. With a robust animation-blending system, we are able to easily transition between skills. In our previous demos, this was shown through chain skills, such as the warrior sword combo in the first skill slot: Sever Artery leads to Gash, which flows into Final Thrust. We realized that this system did not need to be reserved just for chain skills but could apply to the entire game. There were skills such as Savage Leap, which moved the player into range of their target, and big control attacks like Shield Bash, that you wanted to be able to quickly follow with another skill. The problem was that the animations for these skills had follow-through that was preventing players from using another skill until the animations were finished. You could stun or chase someone, but it was hard to capitalize on it.

 

Our programmers added technology to our skill data to allow us to specify a point in an animation at which the player could start moving again. This made skills like Savage Leap not only more functional but tremendously fun to use. This technology came in right before gamescom, so we were able to showcase it with a few important skills in that demo. Now that the technology has evolved, not only does it allow players to specify when they can start movement but it also allows us to transition into queued skills so that we can improve responsiveness. We went through every skill in the game and set up these animation breakout timings and the results were fantastic, but we didn’t stop there. I know many people have also noticed the more polished nature of the animations in the G-Star demo. Since we were able to go back and polish it, we also took a look at the impact of the new blending changes and made some timing changes to existing skills in order to give them more-appropriate anticipation, swing time, and follow-through to match the smoother feel that we were achieving with the blending. This really shines with things like big hammer swings, which now have slow buildups, quick attacks, and somewhat lengthy follow-through, depending on the skill. Ultimately, it creates a much more visceral and immediate system, which helps us straddle the line between action game and RPG.

Read More!

[stupidhero]

It's interesting... NC Soft were having the same problem when testing GW2 but they already fixed it. It's in their blog. Check it out!

 

 

Yeah - they're using a PROPRIETARY engine after all ;D

 

Guess which $200m project did opt for a 3rd party engine :>

[Etravex]

For those of you who are still questioning whether their is an initial ability delay ( as to whether it exists or not) there is a quick way for you to personally check it on your own character.

 

1. Log into the game and hotkey your 60 minute racial buff (everybody gets one at the start of the game).

 

2. Make sure you don't currently have the buff (check your buff bar if you have it right click on it to remove it).

 

3. Now target yourself and click on the buff. Don't pay attention to your character or his or her animation just watch your buff bar and observe how long it takes for the buff to be applied. This is labeled as an instant cast (Hence it should be applied right away), but notice that it takes a fraction of a second between hitting the ability and when it's applied.

 

This is only pre-ability delay and only puts an emphasis on pre-ability character responsiveness.

 

The effects are even more severe when dealing with tying strings of abilities together in combat and with the addition of casting abilities.

 

From my own personal observations I believe Bioware has tied the execution of abilities and their effects to animations instead of a strict internal clock. In other words, you are waiting for the animation to play to a certain point before you see the fruition of that ability. The problem with this is that the GCD is strict and set to an internal clock (a flat 1.5 seconds). There seems to be a great deal of conflict between the strict GCD and the inconsistent animations. I've noticed that animations vary in speed (sometimes the same ability and same animation takes longer to perform) because of latency or our general connection to the server. So sometimes the animation plays fast and we don't recognize a problem with character responsiveness, but in a situation where latency is an issue the animations struggle and therefore the execution of that ability is delayed.

 

I haven' t done extensive testing, but from what I've performed so far this seems to be the problem. If Bioware was to tie the execution of abilities to a strict internal clock (same clock the GCD is tied to) then I believe the majority of character responsiveness would improve dramatically. Animations should not be taking priority; they are to inconsistent.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Etravex

[Zaarek]

I completely agree, this issue is game breaking. I know this game isn't just about PvP but go ask those Warhammer employee's of yours how pvp lag and poor balance work out for an MMO. Right now you can't even comment on class balance as the other glaring issues, this one topping the list, overshadow any other balance concerns.

[Khoranth]

I completely agree, this issue is game breaking. I know this game isn't just about PvP but go ask those Warhammer employee's of yours how pvp lag and poor balance work out for an MMO. Right now you can't even comment on class balance as the other glaring issues, this one topping the list, overshadow any other balance concerns.

 

I think it is not game-breaking, but it is PVP breaking, and competitive PVE breaking. I think the game could still be enjoyable as a slow paced , old school RPG. As long as the content is designed around the slow style of combat they implemented.

 

Of course having slow, turn-based combat, and having no competitive PVP, or high end PVE probably limits your customer base, but clearly: combat is working as intended.

[samdbtto]

 

From my own personal observations I believe Bioware has tied the execution of abilities and their effects to animations instead of a strict internal clock. In other words, you are waiting for the animation to play to a certain point before you see the fruition of that ability. The problem with this is that the GCD is strict and set to an internal clock (a flat 1.5 seconds). There seems to be a great deal of conflict between the strict GCD and the inconsistent animations. I've noticed that animations vary in speed (sometimes the same ability and same animation takes longer to perform) because of latency or our general connection to the server. So sometimes the animation plays fast and we don't recognize a problem with character responsiveness, but in a situation where latency is an issue the animations struggle and therefore the execution of that ability is delayed.

 

I haven' t done extensive testing, but from what I've performed so far this seems to be the problem. If Bioware was to tie the execution of abilities to a strict internal clock (same clock the GCD is tied to) then I believe the majority of character responsiveness would improve dramatically. Animations should not be taking priority; they are to inconsistent.

 

If this is a solution how realistic is it for the game devs to implement it? I hope they don't give up due to it being complicated.

[ZioGio]

Honesty and Bioware should probably not be said in the same sentence anymore. I have lost my faith in them in every single way.

 

As I've said before, all I see is Indifference and Incompetence. The inability to communicate properly with their playerbase on serious topics and concerns showcases their inability to run an MMO, it is not wise to invest time and money here.

 

My mood in regards to this topic and Bioware has changes dramatically over the course of 4 unanswered threads on a serious subject. The response in thread 2, page 123 was very lacking and only suggestive of a follow-up shortly thereafter. Which never came, total indifference or incompetence.

 

First, I agree with the core subject of these threads and there's nothing I can add that hasn't already been said. I've experienced the ability delays during beta and release and I'd like to see them fixed for all classes.

 

However, your statement that all you see is indifference and incompetence caught my eye. I work for a major software company and have a better understanding of how decisions are made on the inside than most.

 

In general, the designers, developers, and, more importantly, the project managers, aren't necessarily indifferent to their customer base, but development schedules are planned weeks and months ahead of time and unless the bug is catastrophic (i.e. like a forgotten time bomb held over from beta that unexpectedly locks everyone out simultaneously) the development team will focus on their milestones and pencil in feature changes and bug fixes to future milestones.

 

No v1 software is ever fully baked. Sales and marketing set the release schedule, not the developers. To get v1 out the door, some key features are always pushed back to the next release because they just aren't stable enough and need more time. It's the nature of the beast. In my experience, v3 is usually what the developers intended v1 to be.

 

As Bioware alluded to, bug fixes are never simple. A fix here has a cascading effect on other aspects of the application and all of that has to be mapped out, spec'd, coded, and tested; all the while making sure the fixes are compatible with the ongoing development. This takes time and introduces complications that have to be worked through.

 

For good or bad, companies are not going to make their development schedules or list of updated/new features public, let alone publicly guestimate when bug fixes are going live. Could you imagine the subscriber uproar if the feature or bug fix doesn't go live when promised?

 

I'm not saying people shouldn't feel frustrated. We, as subscribers, have invested time and grown attached to the game so the lack of control over things like bug fixes is intense. However, it's silly to think that Bioware is indifferent because, from a business perspective, they provide a service and that service will only be successful if their subscribers are happy so it stands to reason that they want to fix these issues, too. It just takes time.

[Khoranth]

First, I agree with the core subject of these threads and there's nothing I can add that hasn't already been said. I've experienced the ability delays during beta and release and I'd like to see them fixed for all classes.

 

However, your statement that all you see is indifference and incompetence caught my eye. I work for a major software company and have a better understanding of how decisions are made on the inside than most.

 

In general, the designers, developers, and, more importantly, the project managers, aren't necessarily indifferent to their customer base, but development schedules are planned weeks and months ahead of time and unless the bug is catastrophic (i.e. like a forgotten time bomb held over from beta that unexpectedly locks everyone out simultaneously) the development team will focus on their milestones and pencil in feature changes and bug fixes to future milestones.

 

No v1 software is ever fully baked. Sales and marketing set the release schedule, not the developers. To get v1 out the door, some key features are always pushed back to the next release because they just aren't stable enough and need more time. It's the nature of the beast. In my experience, v3 is usually what the developers intended v1 to be.

 

As Bioware alluded to, bug fixes are never simple. A fix here has a cascading effect on other aspects of the application and all of that has to be mapped out, spec'd, coded, and tested; all the while making sure the fixes are compatible with the ongoing development. This takes time and introduces complications that have to be worked through.

 

For good or bad, companies are not going to make their development schedules or list of updated/new features public, let alone publicly guestimate when bug fixes are going live. Could you imagine the subscriber uproar if the feature or bug fix doesn't go live when promised?

 

I'm not saying people shouldn't feel frustrated. We, as subscribers, have invested time and grown attached to the game so the lack of control over things like bug fixes is intense. However, it's silly to think that Bioware is indifferent because, from a business perspective, they provide a service and that service will only be successful if their subscribers are happy so it stands to reason that they want to fix these issues, too. It just takes time.

 

I do not think bioware considers the combat problem a problem. Don't you think controlling your character is the single most important aspect to ALL video games?

 

If bioware considered this a problem they would have fixed it before release. just look at this post about GW2:

 

There were skills such as Savage Leap, which moved the player into range of their target, and big control attacks like Shield Bash, that you wanted to be able to quickly follow with another skill. The problem was that the animations for these skills had follow-through that was preventing players from using another skill until the animations were finished. You could stun or chase someone, but it was hard to capitalize on it.

 

Our programmers added technology to our skill data to allow us to specify a point in an animation at which the player could start moving again. This made skills like Savage Leap not only more functional but tremendously fun to use. This technology came in right before gamescom, so we were able to showcase it with a few important skills in that demo. Now that the technology has evolved, not only does it allow players to specify when they can start movement but it also allows us to transition into queued skills so that we can improve responsiveness.

[Loxone]

It's interesting... NC Soft were having the same problem when testing GW2 but they already fixed it. It's in their blog. Check it out!

 

 

Read More!

 

I read this as well and I'm glad you posted it. The Anet staff has some hardcore gamers on it and a lot of pvp experience for them to realize the importance of responsiveness.

[freddiez]

This is not a word processor. Yes there is a schedule or sprint backlog or whatever, but emergent issues that affect core functionality should take precedence and immediately be put into the current sprint. Most modern software development methodology, such as Agile especially, emphasize flexibility and quick response to changing requirements. But with all said and done, I'm guessing all the devs are out on vacation with a skeleton crew in place to deal with the simple issues (missing baby names in the credit etc). I'll give them another week or two...

[Jedi_Wannabe]

I think it is not game-breaking, but it is PVP breaking, and competitive PVE breaking. I think the game could still be enjoyable as a slow paced , old school RPG. As long as the content is designed around the slow style of combat they implemented.

 

Of course having slow, turn-based combat, and having no competitive PVP, or high end PVE probably limits your customer base, but clearly: combat is working as intended.

 

I agree. I wonder if the system is actually working as intended. Not just as designed, but as BW intends for it to run. I remember them making a big deal about the visuals of combat, especially light saber battles.

 

Is having everything tied to animations, and having animations run at different speeds in different circumstances, part of the game design? Are we trying to get BW to fix something that is essentially intended to be broken?

[Canuk]

Does bioware have arenanets number that solution they have is exactly what we need to make this good game...great.

Tired of doing a stun and then trying to use a finisher but i cant because my animation on my instant attack takes 1.5 seconds...do they not realize instant needs to be instant?

[freddiez]

Or they don't consider this an issue at all. Either way...c'est la vie.

[Blackfriar]

Hello...

 

Edited for brevity...

 

P.S.: It is not Latency or FPS Lag... also very important to understand.

 

 

Ah. So it's not just me. I thought it was just my perceptions of things... I was even wondering if something had gone wrong with my computer. I didn't spend all that money buying an over-clocked epean to play like I'm wading through knee-deep mud in the 100-meter dash....

 

So, thanks for the thread, this was good to know.

[Canuk]

Today , 07:04 PM

*

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khoranth

I think it is not game-breaking, but it is PVP breaking, and competitive PVE breaking. I think the game could still be enjoyable as a slow paced , old school RPG. As long as the content is designed around the slow style of combat they implemented.

 

Of course having slow, turn-based combat, and having no competitive PVP, or high end PVE probably limits your customer base, but clearly: combat is working as intended.

I agree. I wonder if the system is actually working as intended. Not just as designed, but as BW intends for it to run. I remember them making a big deal about the visuals of combat, especially light saber battles.

 

Is having everything tied to animations, and having animations run at different speeds in different circumstances, part of the game design? Are we trying to get BW to fix something that is essentially intended to be broken?

⋖I≡≡≡≡≡≡◉I(■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■▸

 

Ohh i hope this is not the case, i left another game because i love this one but this animation lag is gamebreaking for twitch and fun pvp....

[Xneco]

I'm kind of amazed that BioWare seems to have built there game engine off of what Mythic was using for Warhammer because they share a lot of the same (bad) characteristics. Now to be honest SWTOR is a vast improvement over how Warhammer was at it's release, but that was 3 years ago... I was expecting a much more polished game engine by now.

[Zakumene]

3. Now target yourself and click on the buff. Don't pay attention to your character or his or her animation just watch your buff bar and observe how long it takes for the buff to be applied. This is labeled as an instant cast (Hence it should be applied right away), but notice that it takes a fraction of a second between hitting the ability and when it's applied.

 

Instant cast means when it casts - its instant, so no cast bar, so no need to stand still while casting it. Does it say "as soon as you press this button the buff is applied and the animation following it is just for show" in the tooltip? It still fits the description for "instant cast". The buff lining up with the animation is broken how exactly? Can you still use another ability immediately after the invoked GCD is over?

 

If you are pressing a button and committing 1.5 seconds of GCD - then explain how it matters if the damage/buff is applied in the beginning or the end of the 1.5 seconds - since you keep the beneficial mobility associated with the "instant" portion of the ability.