Sabbathius
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1.1.2 is not live yet, it's on the test server.
Current version is 1.1.1a as of 2/2/12.
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I wouldn't say PT is simple at all. Mara may be harder but my sin and ptech require about the same measure of finesse, just in different ways.
I actually find for me it's the exact opposite. There's precious little room for finesse with PT, simply because you don't physically have tools for finesse. And the rotation being predictable on a Sin? It's even more predictable on a PT.
I mean, as a PT, you will set the target up with a DoT. No ifs or buts about it. You will then Rail shot it, and do your best to get another Rail Shot as fast as possible, using Punch and Flame burst without letting your heat go overboard. That's about it. That's your whole rotation, PvE or PvP.
Keeping yourself alive vs battlemaster troopers, sages and scoundrels is a ***** without stealth, knockbacks or roots.That's what I meant when I said the class is very simple. You just don't have the tools to deal with these situations, where a Sin does. You have to depend on the other guy being bad, or the help of your teammates, to survive many of these situation. For you to live, the other guy has to screw up.
Mara is a good example of this. An average Mara, when I'm on my PT, doesn't even raise my pulse. I don't even bother to shield or pop cooldowns. A competent Mara? My goal is to get him to execute range for the next guy to come along before he kills me. If he's competent in the least and has his cooldowns up, it's curtains unless I get help. As a Sin, if push comes to shove I can always escape with force cloak, and force sprint while cloaked and grab the heal boost and be back in the fight a few seconds later, where a PT would have just died and be out of it for 20-30 seconds to rez/run back.
Maybe it's just me, I totally admit that. But that's just how I feel about the class. I'm leveling 3 chars more or less simultaneously right now - Sin, PT and Mara. And my OP is a few levels behind, though I'm not too crazy about him (and not because of the nerf, which I feel is actually a buff, I can stunlock amazingly well now).
All too often I'm playing a PT, and I keep pressing the keys bound to abilities that I would have on Sin or Mara to deal with a situation at hand. Only to realize I'm a PT and don't have those tools. But it's never the other way around, I never catch myself thinking "Oh, dang, this would have been so sweet if I was on my PT!" It never happens.
But again, that's just me, my personal experience with the class, how I feel about it. It's entirely possible the class just isn't for me in the long run. I mean I play a Mara and enjoy it, at least some of the time. But a Jugg by mid-20s was driving me crazy. Just doesn't have the same feel to it at all.
EDIT: The only exception to this general rule is the Grapple-Jet Jump combo. Which is fairly unique. Sometimes you need to split 2 people up. Say Operative and healer. What a PT can do is Grapple the Operative, and Jet Jump the healer. Operative ends up 30m away and rooted, while you and whoever else was there stomp the healer into the ground. But this is fairly rare.
On occasion you can do cool stuff, like grapple the ball carrier into the flames, get the ball, jet jump the enemy near spawn and cap. Yeah, it's a golden moment. But it's a highly situational thing. I mean, I'm aware of this stuff, it's neat, and very strong and a pain to try to counter. But it's just a gimmick that really only works in one WZ well.
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It's pretty reasonable to expect the same from a tank from assassins, and dunno, I would expect the 10% heal from overcharge and 12% from harnessed darkness to be huge, espescially with the low CD on harnessed. Though this might not take effect until wither procs HD, but 12% of 15k + 10%, thats 3k heal, which is pretty solid especially considering you're doing 5k over the channel of force lightning anyway.
Except remember than in Warzones you have a -30% healing debuff. So that 3xHarnessed Darkness Force Lightning will NOT heal you for 12%, it'll heal you for 8%. And that Overcharge Saber will not give 10%, it'll give 7%. Etc., etc.
I tested the Harnessed Darkness, and it is indeed 8%, according to my calculations, in PvP. Haven't tested the Overcharge Saber yet, don't have it, but it's a safe bet. And Dark Charge heal is also cut by 1/3rd.
So all that self-healing? In PVP? It's not that impressive. Nice to have, but not impressive.
Oh, and one last thing, back on topic of PT vs Sin. The build many people use as PT, the so-called Carolina Parakeet build, which is a hybrid of Shieldtech and Pyro. For now, it works. And it is GREAT. You do very decent damage, and your survivability goes way, way, WAY up.
But tell me this, what's to stop Bioware from doing to that build what it is doing to Assassin hybrid builds next patch? Answer: NOTHING. Not a darn thing. For all we know, it's already in the pipe. Unless they specifically set out to just screw Assassins, in which case you should roll a PT anyway.
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Except the flame DoT lasts just as long as you locked them out for and all it took was pressing 1 button.
Except many classes have ways of getting rid of DoTs. Off the top of my head - Sin=Force Shroud, OP=Evasion, Merc=Cure, etc., etc.
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DPS, as in EFFECTIVE DPS, definitely go with PT.
Currently I'm Pyrotech, and aside from Rocket Punch and Flame Burst, all of my attacks are 30m range. That's HUGE. And the closer I get, the more damage I do. And if you go Shieldtech up to Jet Jump, you can close the gap instantly every 15 seconds. Though you'll sacrifice some DPS for it. But not much.
Self-healing on a Sin? Honestly we can't say yet. When next patch goes live, Wither will properly trigger Harnessed Darkness. Currently, it does not. Without it, it's impossible to say how effective it will be.
Heal from Dark Charge attacks is weak, and doesn't scale with gear AT ALL. Yeah, idiotic, I know. So don't count on that being much.
If you want passively self-healing melee, go Annihilation Marauder. The crits of their DoT ticks heal them for 2% of their total HP. And popping Berserk makes their next 6 DoT ticks crit automatically, PLUS heal the TEAM for 1% of their health every tick. And you can pop Berserk when you build 30 Fury, or just pop Frenzy (3 min CD, 2.5 min talented) and get the full stack instantly. From time to time I get the 75k healing done medal in Warzones on my Marauder because of it. I've never been within a shouting distance of that on my Sin. But doing effective damage on a Mara is much more dicey than on a PT, and much more complicated. Don't play a Mara if you are the type to punch the monitor or throw a keyboard, because you'll be dead broke in a week.
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This!
Also, this...
Although I wish we could use tumult in PvP like Maul does twice in the video.
My current favourite is this:
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The only way I would recommend an assassin for you is if you have to have a lightsaber or like to stealth.
Assassin has many more disruption tools than a Powertech. Off the top of my head, some scenarios:
1. You are the last survivor of the door defense in Voidstar. Help is coming, but not fast enough. You have 3 enemies going for the door. As a PT, you can hope to DoT them up, run around hoping they chase you, etc. But they pull you in, chain CC and kill you very quickly. Even Shieldtech PT can melt quick with focus fire of 3 people.
As a Sin, you are in stealth, and door looks clear. Out of the 3 people coming, you sap one. He's out of it for 8 seconds. Second gets Whirlwinded, and is also out for 8 seconds. Third can't possibly kill you alone. When the other two come out of CC, you vanish, using Force Shroud to get rid of any DoTs on you. Now you sap the guy you were fighting, Electrocute the guy you sapped, and kite the guy you whirlwinded as he's got a full resolve bar, popping all your defensive cooldowns and making liberal use of force slow and force speed. This should buy you MORE than enough time for reinforcements to arrive.
Yeah, yeah, they could all trinket, they could all have max resolve, blah blah. Odds are, some of them at least have their trinkets used up.
A PT can never hope to pull this off. Lacks the CC to lock out 3 people for nearly that long, lacks escape mechanics to drag out the fight, lacks defenses to outlast focused damage from 3 opponents. This situation HAPPENED Saturday. This is not a fictional, imaginary scenario that never occurs.
Assassin just has a much bigger toolbox. Though if I could have just one char in this game, I'd go with a PT or a Sorc. Sorc, probably. Better toolbox than a Sin, and less resource management than a PT.
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Honestly? Darth Maul. I just can't say no do a double-bladed lightsaber. If another class got it instead, I'd have made that class instead.
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I have a Powertech and a Sin in low-mid 40s, so take this for what it's worth.
Powertech is a very, very simple class. Probably involves less skill than any other class I played so far. Merc has to deal with interrupts, a PT doesn't. Sorc is squishier and mostly stationary, a PT is mobile.
Also, in my view at least, PT is a very shallow class. You have exacty two CCs. One stun, 4 sec, 60 sec CD. And Carbonize (which I don't have yet), which is 2.5 sec AoE stun on 45 sec CD. That's all your tools. You have no way to buff your mobility, unless talented (like the talent deep in Prototype tree or Jet Jump deep in Shieldtech tree). You have no escape mechanisms. You do get Grapple, which is a pull attack, but it's a cheese move for getting people into fire/acid or interrupting their casts or yanking the ball carrier, not much use elsewhere.
Your defenses as a PT are rather weak and cooldown based. Your shield is 12 sec duration, reduces all damage 25%, and 2 min CD. Two minutes is a rather long time. Your second one, Kolto Overload, is 3 min CD and heals you for 15% of your HP over 10 seconds. Three minute CD is even longer. In a 15 min match, you'll use it a max 4 times, usually only 1-2 because most of the time it doesn't make any difference.
Having said that, in terms of ease of play vs effectiveness, it is by far the BEST char I have. It is SO EASY to play that it is virtually impossible to screw up. You run around and you shoot people. You are wearing heavy armor, and all your best attacks can be done while moving, which is something no other class has. I routinely rake up more medals and do more damage with my Powertech than I do on my Sin.
I highly recommend the class, if you can stand its horrible simplicity. Personally I can only take it in small doses.
Assassin has WAY more tools. You have the exact same 4 sec stun. You also have AoE knockback on 20 sec CD, which is invaluable. You have Force Speed and Force Cloak to catch up/escape. You can spec into Force Pull if you choose. You have Spike, which is a short 2 sec knockdown on 30 sec CD, can only be used from stealth but also without stealth if you spec for it. You have Whirlwind, which is 2 sec cast CC that lasts 8 seconds, can be instant cast if you spec for it.
Assassin is infinitely more complex to play to its full potential.
I'll give you a quick example. You are standing on the ramp in Huttball. Enemy group is passing by you with the ball. As a PT, you really have one option here - Carbonize and AoE them. You'll do some damage, you won't kill anyone, and they will butcher you in a few seconds as they go by. As a Sin, you stealth to them and do an AoE knockback. At least half the group will end up knocked over the edge, possibly even into the pit. That's a loooong walk. That's one example where Sin has a huge impact where PT has none.
Carrying the ball is another example. Suppose you are in front of the last burner, fire just went out. But you see 3 people standing there watching you. As soon as you start to cross, they will CC you. Fire will turn back on, and you will die. As a PT, you're dead. Unless you are specced into Jet Jump and they give you a target to jump to. But that's really no different from what any warrior can do, nothing special. As a Sin, you can pop Sprint and hope to cross before the CC catches you, and you'll probably make it. Or you can pop Force Shroud, which is 100% resist to tech and force. It won't stop all of the CC, but it'll stop most. If you get charged by a warrior while crossing even with Shroud on, you'll still get rooted, but not many people know it and not many warriors will sacrifice themselves like that.
Personally I leveled both so far. PT I play when I don't feel like doing any work at all, but still want to get tons of medals and look like the big hero. Assassin I play when I'm feeling nasty, because I can totally ruin another team's day by basically being a lil' bastid.
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If you cant see what a class is capable of with buffs, what makes you think seeing it without them will make any difference?
Because most videos are of a guy using consummables fighting a guy who doesn't. That makes for a rather lopsided presentation.
When was the last time you saw a video where the guy who posted a video is fighting someone...and that someone pops a grenade? Ever seen it? I've been watching videos of SWTOR since beta, and I haven't seen one like it.
The problem is, what I see very often in videos is class + crew skill vs class alone. That doesn't mean much to me. And in quite a few Marauder videos I watched, if the Marauder DIDN'T use a heal pack, he'd have lost at least 30% of the fights shown in the video. And the guys he was fighting didn't use heal packs, whether by choice or because on cooldown I cannot say.
That's why I'd be VERY curious to see a "Marauders are fine!" video WITHOUT consummables. Obviously fighting people also not using consummables. No adrenals, no medkits, no nothing. Pure class vs class. If your premise is that CLASS is fine, PROVE it! If your premise is that class+consummables is fine vs any other class WITHOUT consummables, well, duh, that's a no-brainer.
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OK, first things first. This is for a PUG with morons. Which is 99.98% of all PUGs.
1. Protection medals (3)
DO NOT GUARD. Using Guard gets you killed. You take 50% of the damage that moron you just guarded and going to take, and he'll probably just jump into fire or stand in acid.
These medals are: 2.5k damage prevented, 5k damage prevented and 10k damage prevented without dying once.
Key here is to use taunt, and AoE taunt, without dying. Stay back enough to taunt, but don't get in too deep. If you are going to be slaughtered, run. Key here is to stay alive. If you die, you go back to square one, as the last medal is 10k damage prevented without dying. Use Force Cloak if you have to.
2. Healing medals (1-2)
There's a certain consummable that works in WZs. Whether intentional or not, I don't know. It gives a 2.5k heal medal instantly, and with luck can give you 5k heal medal too. I'm not going to tell you what it is, find it yourselves.
3. Defender medals (2)
Fairly simple. When fighting, fight people near the ball carrier, near the gun turret, etc. Doesn't work on Voidstar, I don't think. But could be wrong. 1k defender points, and 3k defender points.
4. Killing medals (3-4)
One for killing blow, very easy to get. One for a solo kill. Sometimes that's hard to get, as people join in on an easy kill rather than go for objectives. One for damaging 10 people who later die. And one for damaging 25 people who later die. If you damaged him, and he dies, it counts.
5. Damage medals (1-3)
One for doing 75k damage. Easily attainable. Even a level 10 can do that much rather easily in a standard match. One medal for doing 2.5k damage in one hit. This may be possible, depending on your spec. If you are Darkness, you are probably out of luck, though you might get lucky with an Assassinate crit. And one medal for 5k in a hit. This one you're probably not getting, at least I've never gotten it yet on my Sin (but he's not 50 yet, so there's hope).
In an average game, you should have 9-12 medals with this setup.
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With the right pet and the right setup, any spec of any class is viable for leveling. SWTOR has some of the easiest leveling in current MMOs. Roll your face on the keyboard, and you level. I've leveled as a tank Sin with R2V8 droid to heal me, as a healer Operative, etc., etc. Anything works.
Having said that, I don't recommend leveling Shieldtech. Too slow. And I too leveled AP to a certain point. But around 32, I think, I switched to Pyro and haven't looked back.
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Probably around 500k.
Honestly, I don't see myself playing this game a month from now. My main is in the 40s, will likely be 50 by then. Level 50 content is rather unimpressive, and I don't feel like grinding PvP for gear. I'm guessing most people will be the same.
Then, factor in the new releases. Such as ME3, possibly Diablo 3, Torchlight 2, etc., etc. They will also release just around the time when SWTOR will start getting mighty boring.
Yeah, I'm gonna go with about 500k in 3 months.
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Is my logic wrong here?
Yes. Don't focus on getting to 50. Do all in your power NOT to get to 50. Make an alt. Make a lot of alts. Level 50 right now is a horrible place to be. Hardly any content, horribly unbalanced PVP and RNG bags. Don't do it. Save yourself pain and aggravation.
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Good god, stop with the "cooldowns" nonsense.
Force Shroud WITHOUT 11 points into Darkness is 3 seconds of tech/force resist. You still eat everything else thrown at you. And 3 seconds is by no means a big deal.
Deflection is a +50%, true, but on 2 min CD. Unless you only intend to be combat effective for 12 seconds every 2 mins, that's not the answer.
Any other defenses? Nope. That's nowhere NEAR enough, for the kind of damage we do and wearing light armor. Go browse Marauder defensive cooldowns and cry. Oh, yeah, and they get medium armor, not light.
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You want to be in 10m range, but not in 4m range. You only step into 4m to Rocket Punch (every 9 seconds) or Quell (every 8 seconds). That's it. Other than that, you have no business being in 4m range of anything.
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Good question. I don't believe it does. For example, on my Sin when I do Wither (30% slow) and Force Slow (50% slow) on the same target carrying the ball, the target should be slowed 80%. It doesn't look like it works. So I'm guessing same applies here.
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I leave when:
In Voistar, the whole team goes to one door at start on defense.
In Alderaan, the whole Empire team goes left as we land.
My team has 3 or more people under level 14.
Those are guaranteed losses. I don't even need to look at the other team. So far, 100% accuracy.
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they have heals and good defence buffs that lower your atk by 20% and that http://www.torhead.com/ability/6HsgY8K/saber-ward which is a better version of what sins have, catch em without these and they drop like flies
By the same logic, catch a Sin out of stealth with defensive cooldowns down, he'll probably drop fast too. Just saying.
Cloak of Pain lasts up to 30 sec, 60 sec CD. Talented, your Retaliation strikes shorten the active cooldown by 3 seconds. Though most people skip that one, there's better stuff to put points into.
Saber Ward, yeah, 3 mins, almost nobody uses it except when doing something important.
You also forgot Obfuscate, 90% accuracy reduction for 6 sec, though it doesn't work on force/tech attacks I believe, and again 60 sec CD.
Then there's Undying Rage, 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds, 90 sec CD. Long-ish, but you only use it when you're about to die.
And finally, there's Force Camouflage, which talented makes you immune to all damage for 4 seconds, and on 45 sec CD.
Then there's the CC, like Force Choke and Intimidating Roar. And of course the silly high damage they can do. As Annihilation they do 80% of their damage with DoTs. As Carnage, Gore ability lets them ignore 100% of armor for 6 seconds, on a 15 sec CD. Etc., etc.
I don't know man, I don't think you can really compare a Deception Sin to a Marauder, any spec. They are WAY more survivable. The only thing Sins have better is the escape mechanism, but even that is debatable.
For instance, as a Mara you can do Force Camo->Fury->Predation. With Anni spec, Predation is an 80% speed boost for 10 seconds. For comparison, the scooter you get at 25 is a 90% boost. Yeah... Considering Camo allows them to take off in any direction, odds are pretty good they'll ditch you.
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Ravage is a moot point. Unless they will also make it immune to interrupts, you won't be getting it off in PvP anyway. I mean, what else are people you're fighting going to use their interrupt for? We have nothing else that's channeled, short of choke, which will CC them anyhow.
Even if they make it castable on the move, it'll just be interrupted on the move and that's it.
If they make it castable on the move and uninterruptible, people will save their CC to break it.
And if they make it castable on the move, uninterruptible and immune to CC, the class would become overpowered.
So, a moot point. Speed up the animation and leave it as is.
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Good video man... represent Marauders. Some people still believe this class sucks. lol.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say something.
Set up a match, where the enemy team at the start of the match will mark you with a gold star, and will never ever directly attack you or CC you. In this scenario, I believe any class, absolutely any class, can get 500k+ damage done. This is more or less what happens in the video. A person is running around, uncontrolled, not getting focused, doing as he pleases.
I'm not knocking you OP, by the way. Great video. And it's great that you get to fight people like that. I wish I could too. On the server I'm on though, anyone who is squishy and can do high DPS dies first. Same principle as in PvE - first kill weaks, normals and strongs and only then the elite. Cuts down on incoming DPS.
But does this prove that the class doesn't suck? I don't know that it does. Like I said, give me a 50 of any class and don't attack or CC me in a warzone, and I'll get you 500k. Heck, I've hit 250k in my teens with a few classes.
What I would really, REALLY like to see is some nice clean 1v1s, possibly duels, without consummables of any kind. Class vs class.
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some ppl will prefer deception, some will prefer darkness, if u are in deception you are squishy but you hit hard, if you are darkness, u last longer but hit less hard, and for some gay reason, force/tech attack ignores your shield QQ, so if u have a low dps output, healers will lol at you but melee dps will go "AAW FK NOT THAT GUY AGAIN!"
Healers will LOL at you, that's for sure. But that's if you're trying to kill them. If you are just trying to shut them down, they too will go "AAW FK NOT THAT GUY AGAIN!"
What I mean is, first heal gets zapped, second spiked, third zapped again, then knockback, etc., etc. With interrupt on 12 sec, knockback on 20 sec and spike on 30 sec, plus force pull used to interrupt and pull them away from the fight with sprint, and then the regular CC, you can shut him down for a very long time. Not as long as a Marauder can, with talented interrupt being 6 second CD and charge (which can be done point blank) acting as a second interrupt on 10 sec CD, but it's still quite annoying.
That's essentially your job, as Darkness sin. Not to kill, but to wreck the other team's cohesiveness. They focus, you taunt. They have a healer, you shut him down. He may not die, but he won't be doing much healing with you around. As Deception, you would try to kill the healer. Get burst down in 3 seconds, and that's the end of it.
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An unchecked marauder allowed to roam wild is a terrifying thing
Yeah, wish I could fight people like that. Whenever I play mine, instead of ignoring me everyone turns and whacks me.
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That's interesting. So is it safe to say that while a tank spec may "hit like a wet noodle", it can outlast most classes in a 1v1 fight? I know that ops or scoundrels may go down easier, but how does a tank sith assassin do against an equally geared juggernaut/guardian?
It's honestly hard to say. The way I look at it, aside from your natural tankiness, your Wither (which would be your opener probably) will shave off another 5% off of their damage. Which is nothing to sneeze at.
Then, CC is quite important. Currently Juggs can charge you, knock you back/down, charge you again and force choke. I think that fills up your resolve, but I'm not sure. Haven't touched my Jugg in ages, I prefer a Mara. On the other hand, you can knockback, knockdown (Spike usable out of stealth), Electrocute, etc.
Then, you have to think about just how well your opponent knows your class. If he knows to watch for a triple stack of HD and he knows not to waste time trying to interrupt Force Lightning, and will instead save his CC for it, you won't get much mileage out of it. On the other hand, if you pre-emptively CC him before doing the FL, you might get a full benefit.
It's also not the only heal Sins get. Overcharge Saber will heal you for 10% with talent in Darkness tree. Hits while under Dark Charge itself will also heal you, though it's a static heal that doesn't scale with gear, and someone at Bioware should be fired for it. All in all, I can see a fair bit of passive or near-passive healing while you are doing damage. Can't hurt.
The question is, do these heals + tanking mean it's enough to kill someone not getting heals but doing considerably more DPS? I'm not so sure. I have a Marauder, and I would be very hesitant facing one with all cooldowns up as a tank Sin. Annihilation spec will do 80% of its damage with bleeds. And Carnage will ignore 100% of the armor. In other words, they can counter your defenses rather heavily.
Time will tell. It's all theorycraft at this point.
To people complaining about
in Shadow / Assassin
Posted
Your argument notwithstanding, all other stance-based classes will STILL be able to stance-dance after next patch, without losing all of their energy. Juggs, Powertechs, Marauders, etc., will still be able to do it. We will not. That's not fair. Either give us ours back, or nerf all of theirs as well. Otherwise it's just not an even playing field, even if we are bad.