Agreed. Good response. Edit: I had to laugh at this, as anyone who has done the 10 stat datacrons would. Not only did we go half way around the galaxy we endured the buggy mess that was the MGGS so that some of us coud survive long enough to get through the door and get our datacrons. (we averaged 3 out of 4 successes, with one person consistantly dying due to bugs on the final grapple to the door.) So yeah, not only will we do NM and HM. We will do just about anything to get 1 more point to squeeze out of our toons.

If you have a day, and can finish both weekly's, both dailies, and have 1000/1000 comms.... It takes 1 day to gear up.

I think it would take a minor act of god for that to happen. Better players pay attention. They understand that huttball isnt about medal farming, but ball movement. (Thats why most of them fail miserably at it.) Better players dont sit four deep at mid, when its the only turret you hold. (sadly that seems to be a new thing...) Better players fight on the doors, and dont get drawn away for stealthers to plant bombs behind them..... The list goes on and on. And generally if a decent player makes a mistake like that, its not often. But rare. Sadly, most pvp players see someone. Run out to kill them. Get owned by the stealther that was tagging along, and lose the objective. The worst part is, they never learn. Gear cant help stupid.

Dont care. Would prefer there was no such thing as pvp gear, or pvp stats. Its... annoying and terrible. Would prefer to see access to new styles, or new craftable styles, or new vanity pets, new whatever. honestly, I just like getting a shiny. Basically, I want a reward. Why? Because Im paying to play this game, and I like carrots. Its really that simple. I dont need or want faceroll gear. I actually like playing against people on even footing. When I win, Id like to know I won because Im good at my class. Not because my gear laughs at someone. Kind of why I stopped playing a concealment op once I got BM gear. If I fight anyone that doesnt have BM gear, they are gonna get facerolled. Its not skill. Its just gear, spec, and consumables.

Its called... you need professional help. Immediately get in your car, check your city map, and transport yourself to the fleet. Approach a doc bot, describe your symptoms, and take the medication he prescribes. Then go outside and see the sun. Its big, yellow, and shiny. Just dont stare at it too long.

OR Maybe some of us just really enjoy the reward aspect of the game? /shrug To reiterate, I ground out my gear the hard way. Im not an advocate for forcing anyone down that path. It sucks massively. However, that aside... I wouldnt mind something shiny after pvping, and winning x amount of games.... or scoring x amount of objective points.... Even in competitve sports, players get salaries, trophies, and supermodel girlfriends. If nobody got paid in the nfl, if there was no incentive to be the best of the best... Sunday game time would be more of a comedy show, and less of a competitive event.

Interesting. Because a DPS Jugg thats halfway decent can 9k you in a single smash.

Force leap, choke, force push, force leap, smash. Oh look at that... 0/13/28 I can now insure that I never ever ever get knocked back again, after I force leap to you, with my improved force leap and 100 percent push back immunity, I wont even get into my insta crit smashes.... Seems like it would be easy, but.... He force chokes you, you trinket, and pushback, he force pushes you, leaps, and smashes. Your eating the smash one way or another on any halfway competent player.

True. I like gear though. I dont care if its just unique styles with no mods... Schematics, crafting materials... I just want something at the end of the road when pvping... because honestly, sitting around and flexing my epeen got boring after the first year in wow. So.... While I may not care if I get an advantage in gear. I would like something to show at the end of my day. And no, since Im paying for this game, winning isnt enough.

Couple of points: 1) Getting facerolled in pvp by gear is not fun, no matter how you look at it. While I have taken the time to grind out the valor, and the tokens to get the gear, I still remember when fifties in Champ/BM gear where facerolling low levels. And I still remember when I was grinding BM gear and that small hump was sometimes the difference between winning and losing. Of course, nothing is nearly as fun, as getting an entire group of fresh fifties, and having to take on a group of all BM's. Loads of laughs all around. (End sarcasm) The point being, I can understand why getting people pvp gear earlier on, is a bit more..... appealing, then constantly being facerolled by peoples gear. However.... 2) I actually spent the time grinding the valor requirements, and getting token drops, first from bags... which sucked, and then being able to spend WZ/Merc Comms on em, which still sucked at times. The fact that all of that is pretty much meaningless now, makes me wonder.... whats the reward for pvp? Dont get me wrong, its fun in and of itself. But not several hours fun. And much like I enjoy seeing either my guildies, or I get a drop at the end of a good boss fight... I also enjoy seeing a reward for being successful at something and putting time in. If its simply, welcome to fifty, spend a million credits and get some gear.... It kind of detracts from the reward system. There has to be some kind of carrot there.

We can agree to disagree. I have no problem with that. 1) Clearing 2 dots, requires 1 button push. Having leveled an operative, Juggernaut, and Sorc to fifty, and a BH to 44, having healed on the BH, the Sorc, and the Operative. I can say that removing a set of dots requires no loss in battle awareness. Especially if your a h alfway decent healer, who can be bothered to look at his raid frames. /shrug Why people resist this is beyond me. 2) I have no real number 2, the number 1 just looked really cool. I guess we agree to disagree. It does, and it is channeled. And if you arent watching your targets and what they are doing, when they are doing it, I honestly dont know what to say. Yes, I did a specific dot build, that reduced the cost of corrosive dart. Again, I didnt just pull this out of my butt. I leveled as lethality on the back end of the forties. I know the spec, and I know its strengths and weaknesses. Im speaking from experience of pugging pvp to valor 50. Im speaking of running HM PvE's were everyone isnt overgeared. Further, in order to be effective as lethality, you have to roll into and out of cover. You have no gap closer. Your skills have varying degress of range, TA's decay in 10 seconds, AND you have to get to melee range to get TA's in the first place. How this makes sense as good design baffles me. But if you like it, run with it. Unviable? I never said it wasnt viable. I said it was lackluster, counterintuitive, and was underperforming. Being viable isnt the same as being worthwhile. Anything you do on a lethality operative, I can do ten time better on a sorc, or a bh.... /shrug. Thats proof in and of itself. Apparently you felt you did need to comment on that again. If you are attempting to use stealth without improved stealth, you will get seen. Dotted or insta cast, dragged out of it, and yes, you will probably lose the fight unless you get help. I do it all the time to sins and operatives that think they can. /shrug I guess you play against bad players. The two decent lethality specced Operatives that I have played with and against never use stealth unless to escape. Its not worthwhile. Ok. /shrug It specifically states internal damage. Which apparently is poison damage. Either way, its linked directly to dots, which are removable with one button push. I could argue this all day long, but the simple fact is, against any reasonably competent player, you are easily countered. I promise you, if you meet up with me and any of the people I normally pvp with, you're ignored. Your damage is easily nuetralized, your burst is non existant, and if you get close enough to do melee damage, the concealment op lurking near us will destroy you, since you're about the only target he can destroy with ease. The whole point is, lethality works well when its not noticed. But its counterintuitive, because you have to get to melee range to get your TA's so you can get your Burst. You will get noticed, and destroyed. /shrug Viable does not equal worthwhile. This is the part that people dont seem to get. I am viable as an operative. I am outstanding as a sorc. I destroy as a BH, and am invaluable as a BH healer. If you can only be viable as a class then your class has issues. But hey, people keep resisting it. Keep saying its fine. Dont push for fixes to the class. Let it all stand as it is. Stroke epeens and say how great people are because they can make the class viable. Thats just accepting mediocrity in the class design.

A couple of things. 1) The AOE fear will drop you where you stand, and you will remain in stealth. However, anyone who walks near you will see you. 2) I have run into the same issue of popping evasion on the mauraders bleed dot, and it isnt removed. 3) Using sheild probe will not prevent you from being pulled out of stealth. Any status effect on you, will pull you out of stealth, even if the damage isnt applied to you. So, if you are dotted, and they remain, and even if the sheild eats the damage, you will get pulled out of stealth. 4) Toxic scan: Removes negative Tech or Physical Abilities. However, it doesnt appear to work as intended. Ive hit it and still had interrogation probes on me, hit it and still had maurader dots on me, etc. I have no idea why. 5) The tooltip for Cloaking screen reads: For 10 seconds you become virtually undetectable. The trade off for that, was that you could not be healed at all. However, in reality. You are easily detected by stealth scans, AOEs will knock you out of stealth, etc. Its not much of an escape tool, if it means you can be healed AND you can be spotted with realitive ease. 6) Shield Probe is a joke. Im mostly confused here. Maurader "vanish" works better. Plus they get a sheild that reduces all damage by 99 percent? for 10 seconds, plus they get saberward, plus they get a movement speed buff WITH their stealth they dont have to spec into, PLUS they have force jump, and intercede... oh and they have medium armor. But all of our escape tools are easily countered. I assume it was to make up for the burst that we no longer possess.

Interesting that you chose to respond to that, and not his extremely long post, in which he details alot of what he is talking about.

Oh no, I read it. I agree with most of it. Unfortunately my agreement would probably get you more negative responses than positive. Any time someone points out a weakness, or issue, or states the class has problems and really needs to be redesigned if they dont want High Burst/low to moderate sustained... they generally get told to l2p, nothing wrong here. /shrug We can tell em water is wet, and the sky is blue. Doesnt mean they will believe it.

Stealth Nerf: 1) An overall nerf to stealth and stealth based classes. 2) A nerf done in a sneaky fashion, so as not to be noticed except by an irritated player whose class was specifcally affected by said stealth nerf. Also known as a Ninja Nerf, Marriage Proposal, or Retarded Move By Devs.

Hey Mobius. Hope things are well. While Im glad that Lethality works for you, and dont get me wrong, I Really am glad it does... It says some things about the people you are playing against, particularly the healers. The dots are removable. And any healer that isnt terrible, will remove them. Yes, in pugs they may stick around for some time, again, it generally shows the state of the healers, not the effectiveness of the spec. You shouldnt be required to play against idiot healers to be effective. Lethality is a bastardized range spec. It was created specifically for snipers, and shoe horned into Operative. The problem is, operatives lack any range and all but get rid of their melee usefullness by taking lethality. Also, go back and look at the talent tree... boosts to Carbine burst, overload shot, and cull (all ranged skills.) Range on all skills? 10 meters to 30 meters.... Its an attempt at mid to short ranged, with the one caveat that your ta generator is melee ranged. Thats just bad design. Further: Your melee abilities lack any real punch, which means using them is not a good energy trade off. I didnt say it was a bad thing, I said it creates issues, specifically with your TA generator being on melee. Cull was not made to be spammed, it hits exactly the same amount of times it does on a sniper, actually less. The sniper version is channeled, yours is not. However, if you only have 1 ta, you get half the Cull that a sniper gets, from a third of the range. Assuming you have the energy, which you might not have, since your corrosive dart costs 20, your grenade costs 20, your shiv costs 15.... thats over half of your energy right there. Thats great, provided you have cooldowns. Add in, explosive probe, orbital strike, snipe, or any other skill (and if you arent using them, you really arent playing the class to its potential, and your dps is going to be subpar.) And your energy isnt quite so limitless anymore. I disagree. You arent anything like a concealment operative. You lack improved stealth, unless you grabbed it, in which case, you had to give up other talents such as more cunning (which equals a net dps loss.) Thats the whole problem with lethality, its counter intuititive. Your trying to be a short ranged class that melees. You cant, you either be one or the other. Weakening Blast: Deals 502-588 damage, causes the target to take 30% additional damage from the agents next 10 poison effects. It has no effect on Cull, at all, whatsoever. Cull does a white damage, and additional damage based on how many poison effects you have present. Nothing else. As of before the last patch, countermeasures was still broken. It didnt work. If they fixed it, great. Thats slightly useful. However, when faced with a ranged class like Sorc, Bounty Hunter, or even Sniper. Your additional CC break wont matter very much when they hammer your paper thin defenses into the dirt, and you shortly thereafter. . I destroy dps and damage in warzones, and it means nothing. Pugs are bad. Against any halfway competent premade, this class gets destroyed, or worse.... ignored. Ive built lethality around a concealment hybrid, around a med hybrid, and around a dot specific. Any way you build it, I can do it better on a BH, sorc, or even sniper. Thats the problem. Not if the class can be played. But if it can be played on the level with other classes. And dont even get me started on pve, and enrage timers. Yes it does, because its half the cull of a Snipers. The snipers is channeled. Yours is not. The snipers doesnt require a TA. Yours does, you have 1/3rd the range of the sniper. In all likelyhood, by the time someone notices a sniper, its very possible its too late. You get to be up and in their face. This makes a huge difference. Overall, Im not trying to convince you that you shouldnt play an operative, or like the operative, or anything of the sort. I have, however, played this class. Extensively. With great love and affection. That doesnt mean it cant be improved. And if we refuse to recognize its weaknesses, and ask for them to be shored up, the class is ultimately doomed to stagnation.

So what you are saying is he hit you with one attack, and it killed you. Not two attacks, not ten attacks, but one attack, one time? Which would be total horsecrap, since its on a 9second cooldown. bad troll is bad.

So the solution is... dont play pvp until you get pvp gear, which you need to play pvp for? Wow. Circle logic comes full circle.

Interesting. I see pub teams stacked with healers/grav spammers, far more often than I see sorc stacked teams. So here are my choices. 1) I can play a tracer spam character. (much like your grav spammers.) fun fun fun. That takes really skill. Just one button your way to success. 2) Ooo. I could make a juggernaut whos one trick is slam. 9k damage to everything in sight, as a pbaoe. Another one button my way to success. 3) Or I could choose the class that was nerfed into next week, so I could be an underperforming healer, or subpar dps, and an intelligence check on the rest of humanity. I think a better question you could have asked is... Hey BIOWARE, when you going to get around to fixing some of this so other classes are actually fun to play?

Yeah, thats the truth right there. A good sorc can snag a ball carrier out of the trap, and into the endzone, turning the tide of a game. A good juggernaut can forceleap, force push an enemy ball carrier off the goal line and into the pit, turning the tide, a good Sin Tank can fore pull a ball carrier into the trap.... Goes the same in civil war and void star. Each of these classes has a tool or series of tools that can turn the tide of the game. The operative, has none. There is no tool an operative posses, that can turn the tide of a warzone. Come to think of it, there is no tool an operative posses that can turn the tide of anything. Except it did have burst damage. Now it doesnt have anywhere near what it once was. You can still do moderately well if you have skill. But if you applied that same skill to a class with more utility, you would be amazing. And thats really the difference here.

Only works if you are a healer. Otherwise, your eating a sorcs dots. They are mental, not tech or physical.

And here we come to the cruxt of the argument. The operatives sole purpose in life, is to open, control, and quick kill. It has no other purpose in existance except for that. When you take away from that, and add nothing in return, you have essentially gutted the class. Yes, you may be "viable", but viable isnt enough. You have to be worthwhile. And thats where the operative is seriously lacking. I have never stated in all my arguements that the class was not viable, I simply stated it was substandard. This is a statement of fact, nothing else. With the nerfs it received, and with no subsequent reworking of the tools, its made the class lackluster, and requires entirely too much micromanagement for the same amount of return you can get for ANY other class currently out. The call is not for them to "buff" the class so much as to restructure the tools available to the class since people dont seem to want a high burst/low sustained dps class. (If they did, we wouldnt be even having this conversation.) I could care less how OP a sorc is. I just want to stand on at least semi even footing in any given scenario, and right now, thats not happening. At all. And it needs to change in order for the class to be up to par with other classes. Why people resist this idea, based on warzones is beyond me. I can top damage with lethality spec. Doesnt mean anything. I can top kills with concealment spec. It means nothing. Because all of these stats can be padded. I can spam dots on everyone and get kills/dmg for it. What I cant do, is pull a ball carrier into the endzone. Or leap back into a fight after getting knocked into the pit, or sheild someone getting hammered on, or pull an enemy ball carrier into the traps, or sprint really fast through to the goal line, or any number of other utility factors that all the other classes have. Except one. Which was because we traded it for burst. And then lost the burst. That, is the definition of broken.

I just need to get this straight. What Im seeing here is this: This class has no problems. The reason those of us with ocmplaints are bad, is because we arent rolling into and out of cover. Using a 3 second cast orbital strike, or exploiting bugs to get better damage..... Because from what Im hearing, is that, unless you are willing to find bugs to exploit, or roll into and out of cover (which knocks you out of stealth, if you're in it, and negates the purpose of playing a >stealth< class, to catch up to people, or blow every single cooldown you have simply to kill 1 player... then I need to learn 2 play. Thats an interesting concept, considering I dont have to do that for any other class.

Thats interesting. I crit for 3.4k on a chain lighting at 47, granted its not all the time. But I know you wont hit 3.4k on every Hidden Strike. Commandos in their low forties regularly crit for 3.5k on grav shot. And thats spammable. I could go on and on and on and on.... But why bother. You got it all figured out. Glad it worked out for you.

People will tell you to get gear. And that helps. Some. But really, it only helps if you outgear the others. The truth is, a BM geared Sorc and Operative with equal skill, paired against each other.... the sorc can get away. The sorc can and will dot you to death, knock you into the fire, Snare you and kite you, pretty much beat you up and down the field. I say that, for 2 reasons. 1) Because its true, and you need to accept that the class isnt up to par with other classes or you will get highly frustrated.... Save yourself all the denial and agony, and accept it now. 2) Because if you play strategically, and think of it more like a chess game, you can still do moderately well. You have to think three moves ahead, be aware of everyones position on the field, and react to anything that shifts the balance of a fight. Further, running away is your best friend. You cant win a stand up fight. You HS someone, they will eat the 1.5 second stun, escape out of your deb, and if you use flash grenade, the minute you do any damage to them, it breaks. Peoples screams of control and stuns are an illusion at best. At any rate, Operatives are the wild card. The element that can change everything at a crucial moment. But they arent much more than that. Wish you luck.