Dungeon Finder Needed Badly.

[kanelex]

This is something I, and many others, NEVER want to see. I am SO GLAD they haven't implemented some kind of dungeon finder system into this game, it is one of the biggest community destroyers. I've seen it happen in other MMOs and I never want to see it here.

 

If we take WoW, for example, the LFG system there just trows you in with a bunch of random people from other servers and then, the results of that is, that no one in the group ever talks to one another unless a mistake happens, and when it does, insults and blame starts flying around like angry birds and everyone in the group just disbands and re-queues. Why? Because finding a group is so easy that it requires little to no work aside from pushing a button. So there's no incentive for players to actually make an effort to "work" together to complete the instance after something goes wrong.

 

A system like this is also a major Heaven for Trolls and Joe-cools. Meaning, they can do and say anything within the group without any fear of repercussions. Here, If someone is an *** in the group and then tries to find another group afterwards in /general, I can almost guarantee you they won't. IE: Server reputation matters. Something that has been missing in the MMO world for a long time, long time.

 

Allowing people to work together and communicate to form their own groups in order to run flashpoints is a great thing. Something I myself enjoy very much doing. Not only does it allow people to get to know each other better, but it also allows the community to become tighter with one another.

 

LOL!

 

Server reputation is a joke. Who gives this server reputation ? Say someone does something in a group that you dont like what do you do ? Do you try to go out there and dmg their server rep ? maybe your in the wrong. Who decides and tracks this server rep ? Are you going to blast this person in General Chat and tell everyone how bad he is ? That isn't very community building.

 

I think people over estimate how 'social' people want to be. I have real life friends. If i'm in a group I am trying to get the job done not make friends. I have no time for virtual friends. Perhaps some do but if you have played lots of mmo's like I have how many of those ppl do you still talk too ?

 

If the group is not doing well and that person feels like its your fault and they are the type of person to throw insults imaginary server rep is not going to stop them. I find it funny that people think server rep is some kind of Jerkface shield. If your a jerkface then your a jerkface.

 

On the other side those that are casual players and can only play for limited time should be left in the cold even tho if a LFG was added ppl like you could choose not to use it and still user general chat /who. When you want to prevent others from doing something when you can still do what you want to do that's called being selfish - step one to being a jerkface.

[Crassius]

I've played up to Corellia, and I'm a lvl 50 tank. I've done every single Flashpoint and Heroic I've been able to so far (I've skipped a few AREA4 though, because even I couldn't find a group - most people didn't even know they exist). Haven't touched the 50 exclusive stuff yet, since I like to do it in the order its meant, regardless of my level. I've also played about 15 MMORPGs in my time, so I'm not a complete noob to the mechanics.

 

Finding groups for Heroics and Flashpoints (other than the first few ones) is much too hard. I could do it because I happen to have ALOT of time on my hands, and because I'm both patient and determined to do them. And last but not least, because starting at lvl 10 I've been tank specced and geared, and thus only need a healer and two "whatevers" to do them. Unless its a DPS race, which it often isn't, you even get along with multiple healers or tanks. But in all the time I think I only ended up in that configuration ONCE.

 

Now while this may have worked for me, it was mostly due to the fact that I am tank spec and due to the fact that I have several hours daily to play. I've been LFGing for HOURS for heroics. Flashpoints was less annoying. It seems if you LFG as a tank, there's always some patient DPS who grabs the occasion and starts a group.

 

I've also been using the LFG tool that we currently have EXTENSIVELY, and over all the time I've played I've got invited ONCE because of that. Most people don't use it or even know it exists. The best thing about it, is that it cuts off your comment, so you can't for instance write the flashpoint and your function, without shortening it. It is actually the worst LFG tool I have ever had the misfortune of using. And mostly in vain, too.

 

Often during my play I thought of how other people would find these situations. How hard would it be for a casual DPS player? Someone who maybe has 30 min to 2 hours a day? Does he want to sit in the Fleet for 30 mins and longer writing LFG, LFG, LFG? Hardly!

You can look for heroics while on the planet, but I've met MANY people who don't even bother. They just do the solo stuff. They skip Flashpoints.

 

That is a fact, at least on my server (which happens to be one of the most populated ones). So, in regard to that, clearly something isn't working right if a large amount of people are skipping the group content because its too inconvenient and easier to just do the solo stuff, and move on. And there is alot of group content all in all. Content that a large amount of people don't even see.

 

The Bonus Series Heroics are even worse. Bonus Series don't take long to finish, and if you can't find a group while you play the solo quests, are you gonna go back on the planet, only to spam LFG for that one, or two, Heroic 4? I kid you not, I HAVE DONE THAT! After about half a dozen visits on different occasions I decided, being 10 levels higher then, that I would just attempt to solo it. Ironically I found another player who would join (mind you, its a 4 man heroic). Turned out I could have soloed it, even without companion. Clearly not as intended? Because, believe me, I've been trying to do it the INTENDED way. And hard.

 

So this is to Bioware, and I hope for your own sake that one of your employees is reading this thread: You will need to implement an LFG tool. One that is for Flashpoints AND heroics. It doesn't have to be as automatic as WoW's one, but it needs

 

 

• to have an option where people can SELECT (not write like a note) an existing Flashpoint or Heroic. Preferably a Heroic from one's quest list, and a Flashpoint, well, from all of them.
   
  
• people to have to select a predefined role (DPS,TANK,HEALER), or it will just lead to confusion with incomplete groups
   
  
• to be SERVER WIDE, not just zone based
  

 

 

It does NOT need to be (at least at this point) CROSS-SERVER, or a fully automatic group assembler. But in my personal opinion it would be preferable if the groups were built automatically, and then the group could sign up for more people/would automatically be signed up and listed.

 

---

 

People seem to confound cross-server LFG tools with those restricted to the server, according to all the "social" bickering. Having to spam LFG for groups isn't social. It's for many people spam and ANTISOCIAL if you have some determined ones really spamming it on. Let's presume people have a discussion, and every third or fourth line is some guy spamming, in caps: "LFG MANDALORIAN RIDERS NEED TANK!!!!!!!". How is that social please?

 

The social part, which would be the interaction of the group itself, is still the same. Even if tbh its pretty minimal almost all the time. After all its hard writing one's memoirs and tanking 4 elites and 2 strong mobs at the same time with very limited means.

 

Where it COULD become more antisocial is if the LFG tool was made cross server. But even that, IN MY OPINION, is preferable to sitting in queues for HOURS at certain times. But I see that argument there, and I'd prefer if grouping was made smooth and fast, and, for now that we have many players, not cross server.

 

For PVP, however, cross server is a necessity, IMHO. It brings more diversity, more balance, less waiting time, less Huttball and let's be logical about it: hardcore pvpers would certainly prefer varying, interesting and balanced/challenging matches, or not? I'll compare it to Battlefield 3 there, which I play alot: The most boring/annoying matches are those where you get annihilated at the spawn points, turn, after turn, after turn. Exactly as annoying are the matches where you steamroll everything, and where every enemy dies without you even having to lift a finger.

 

---

 

I do feel that there's really no use for discussing this matter, AT ALL. I've been observing the same pattern on several MMORPGs, and as astounded as I am right now, but the lack of a proper LFG tool is very unprofessional from Bioware. It's astounding how some aspects of the game are done thorough with so much thought, and others are just kind of "slapped on" with crossed thumbs.

 

There's really no reason to wait and hope to implement the LFG tool at the "perfect time". People are becoming frustrated because they can't do content without sacrificing a hand and an eye for it, and then they're too high/it has become uninteresting or they (a small minority who is stubborn) walz through it with a much higher lvl). In a theme park MMORPG, like this one is, it is a necessity. Especially with the huge amount of group content, outside of Flashpoints.

 

That's the last about LFG tools from me in the SWTOR forum. You can find my next post in the Guild Wars 2 or Secret World forums, if they lack one. It's kind of a hobby of mine which started with Warhammer, and took over to RIFT.

 

Warhammer needed a cross server PvP scenario tool, with a similar balance like WoW's. They acknowledged in the end that it would be advantageous, but that it could cause problems (read: bugs, much work, ...). And so people got massacred in BGs by premades if they wanted a numerically balanced PvP playground. Out of 10 games you got annihilated 8, or 9 times by a premade, if you joined casually. Oh, people COULD have built premades themselves and what not, are the arguments of the naysaysers. Well, surprise, people didn't. They just stopped playing. Yes there were other reasons as well, but I think a large amount of people would have enjoyed balanced battlegrounds when "The Zerg" was out again. It would have significantly slowed Warhammer's "fall", if I may say so, if those were a real alternative. As in all BGs there in the same availability, with good balance and what not.

 

RIFT implemented LFG tools, as far as I know. Unfortunately I stopped playing exactly because they had none, and I was tired of spamming DPS WARRIOR LFG soandso for HOURS, while doing trivial achievement stuff (which got boring fast). But you know how it is. Once you stop playing a game because something sucked, you don't automatically return if its fixed. Maybe you're playing something else. Maybe you're done with MMORPGs in general. Maybe you just don't want to restart investing time and money in what might end up as a huge disappointment again.

 

The same mistake over and over. I've discussed it with several people in both those games. I've asked them, do you like the BGs? Do you get steamrolled all the time as well, if you join alone? Rare is the one who disagreed. But they were always in a premade, telling people to "build them themselves". Well, surprise, some snappy comment doesn't fix the problem. It's pragmatic thinking that does.

 

I'm really amazed I'm seeing this in such a prestigious title as SWTOR. There's no other way to put it, but to say that it's simply not professional. Homework not done, and every day without an LFG tool people will become more and more incontent. When will you implement one? After 10% left? After 20%? More? How many will come back?

 

---

 

If you're read through all this either you're a Bioware Employee and its your job, or you must be really bored. Either way, I've done what I can. I feel I wrote and argued logically and if it doesn't work out with SWTOR for me, there's other MMORPGs at the horizont. I'll probably make a Republic char to play the storyline sometime, but othre than that, we'll see.

 

At least the whole story thing comes across well. But with the rather small amount of class-story content, in comparison, it does get old after the first playthrough on one side.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Crassius

[Thrage]

The only dungeon finder I want to see is one that only pulls from your own server.

 

Pulling from multiple servers removes all accountability for actions and people become even less cordial than they would be in the first place, and considering this is the internet, that's saying a lot.

[Lasarith]

What i find Funny - is the LFG esseles in chat from about 5+ ppl who never seem to relise to team up with each other (bar one or two)

 

Needs to be a extra seperate channel for LFG added that way -can find others rather then spamming Global in the hope to find ppl to group with.

[Norbix]

So I was in imperial fleet for about 15 minutes today just talking to people and sniping cheap epics from the GTN when I noticed the same people were spamming the chat LFG the entire time.

 

Sort of sucks that some people abandon questing to sit in the fleet and spam chat to find a group for something.

[KillerPuffin]

LFD brings the worst up of people. Seriously. I don't want to do something together with people who don't communicate at all, people who leaves after a wipe, people who get mad after a wipe and writes in full caps about how much the entire group, except him, sucks.

 

So no. I rather not want a LFD tool in this game.

[Occams_Razor]

I wonder if it would be a valuable compromise to make the LFG system a little more robust in the following ways:

 

Make flagging as LFG as it is now possible. Add the ability to flag for a certain role or roles and for specific flashpoints/operations. Now, make it possible to search for people based on those flags. Also, it might even be possible to partially automate the process (tank role is selected by the person who just flagged for the flashpoint you have been flagged for for x amount of time, you get a notice saying "Hey, someone's looking for a group for the thing you're looking for!" Then you can open your Social window, check out if they fit the bill and perhaps invite them to a group.

 

Basically, I think the concern that General and the current LFG option are not robust enough is valid. While they are mostly functional, I wouldn't want to have to rely on them solely for my ability to explore group content. That being said, I certainly don't want to deal with cross-server issues, and I prefer not to have auto-generated groups because I really don't see it as necessary with a proper LFG tool available. It also allows players to retain a much greater level of control over who they end up grouping with.

[Sendrel]

You will need to implement an LFG tool. One that is for Flashpoints AND heroics.

 

I read your wall of text! That was a very well thought out post.

 

Just wanted to comment on a couple points. I think its important that whatever route BW decides to go when implementing a LFG tool, that they make it as robust as they possibly can. The HEROIC 2 & 4 content should be included along with flashpoints. I enjoy doing them (and do as many as I can), but, at times, you've got to be pretty motivated to get a group set up in order to get them done.

 

It doesn't have to be as automatic as WoW's one...

 

Scott Hartsman (developer for EQ2 and Rift) has stated publicly that the bulletin board style LFG tool they implemented for EQ2 was a resounding failure. And that the reason that it failed was that it didn't auto-group players. Essentially, people want to group, they just don't want to be the guy who starts the group.

[Lasarith]

Just thinking (yeah i know dangerous:p )

 

A- LFG Channel,

 

B- just go to the Flashpoint entrances (mill) and get groups thier (idear anyway)

[Norbix]

Just thinking (yeah i know dangerous:p )

 

A- LFG Channel,

 

Never works because it becomes a global trade/barrens chat.

 

B- just go to the Flashpoint entrances (mill) and get groups thier (idear anyway)

 

People don't want to go out of their way and stop questing in order to attempt to find a group. If there were shuttles to flashpoints in the worlds that might help.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Norbix

[Reecelol]

No. It ruins the community. Look at wow.

 

you have nothing to base this on. again.

 

communities ruin communities. not game functions. try separating fact from fiction. the "community" will be there with/without a lfg/lfd/lfr system. everyone didnt just fall out of the sky alone like a newborn.

[Leverage]

I don't see what a dungeon finder has to do with the destruction of community. Can you elaborate on your strange comment?

 

there is a difference between cross server dungeon finders and same server dungeon finders.

 

i agree that cross server LFGs does ruin community.

 

however, a LFG feature that was within the same server would be wonderful.

[SpaceHamster]

Okay, this thread has become just a bunch of arguing over the fact that LFG tools have destroyed the "community" of a game or not. The fact of the matter is that more convenience in a game and more accessibility saves time and makes more people want to play that part of the game. Implemented LFG tools for dungeons would make going to dungeons more viable and faster as opposed to the, stop questing - going to base - posting in the general chat for HOWEVER long - and then finally going into the dungeon. Then there is always the chance it doesn't work out,

 

and if it doesn't work out, you have to go back out, and start the process of finding people again. It's annoying, takes too long, and its almost like spamming. Pressing a button to join a dungeon que, and continuing to quest or do whatever you were doing makes the process much easy and accessible to people who just want to go to some damn dungeons.

 

The argument that it destroys community has no weight at all. Iif anything you meet more people more frequently, it depends on the type of person you are that dictates whether or not you make friends while playing. If you're a douche, you're not going to make many friends, simple as that. We shouldn't all have to sit around spamming chat to find groups. It's 2012, group ques are standard at this point and should be implemented asap.

[foofad]

If the game can't survive a modest gesture of convenience like a dungeon finder, then there is something else wrong. Waiting around while trying to fill a group for a dungeon is not fun. It is the worst kind of not fun - the kind that you can not fix or expedite with the tools available to you. Spamming LFG in general and combing /who for people who are LFG is a waste of time that could be spent enjoying the otherwise fun game. Further, you can't even do something else at the same time (other than craft) if you're looking for a flashpoint group because all there is to do at the fleet is dance in the Cantina.

 

Making the effort to take a boring part of the game and make it not boring or minimize it into a nonissue is not the antichrist.

 

This is the issue: The only reason the anti-DF pundits can rally around for not having this feature is that it is potentially community destroying. If this is the case, then the solution is to give the community more features and more tools to socialize and community-build, not block an otherwise totally useful and legitimate feature.

 

Incidentally, I would actually suggest that the bad experiences people have with dungeon finders vis a vis people whining, ragequitting, leaving unexpectedly, and generally not being helpful players is not at all a symptom of the dungeon finder itself. In all likelihood, the speed and ease of access to groups that these features afford simply causes you to do more dungeons and thus encounter more people more frequently. The percentage of idiots is pretty much fixed - there are so many people in the game that are going to make you miserable. But the more quickly you encounter individuals, the more often you're going to bump into the ones that ruin groups. This isn't the tool's fault. It's just statistics.

 

Incidentally, this feature is more viable in this game than in other MMOs. If someone is being a bad group member, you can kick them or wait until they ragequit - and as soon as they do, hey presto, you pull out a companion and fill their spot until the dungeon finder can drop in another person to take their place.

Edited January 1, 2012 by foofad

[Lasarith]

Never works because it becomes a global trade/barrens chat.

 

 

 

People don't want to go out of their way and stop questing in order to attempt to find a group. If there were shuttles to flashpoints in the worlds that might help.

 

Okay no problem,

 

-only thing is if thier all heading in that way anyway (flashpoint) would it not be better to get a group thier ??

 

But hey (shrugs)

[xioix]

Some people always argue but we will see a LFD tool.

 

Wait and see.

 

RIFT was a prime example of this. No LFG tool when it came out but guess what is has now?

[Marmerus]

When you can just click a button and enter a dungeon queue, you no longer need to socialize with your server.

 

This means the server slowly degrades into a bunch of people waiting in a queue, never joining guilds, never creating a proper community.

 

Guilds are the foundation of an MMO. Any function that makes success possible without a guild degrades the community.

 

The community grows when you have no choice but to socialize with people to get into raids/dungeons.

That was the dumbest thing I have read today. Everything you just said applies to questing. Do you think they should remove questing because it will lead to people going out alone in the world never interacting with others and just grind quests?

 

Next time think before you type.

[Reecelol]

This is the issue: The only reason the anti-DF pundits can rally around for not having this feature is that it is potentially community destroying. If this is the case, then the solution is to give the community more features and more tools to socialize and community-build, not block an otherwise totally useful and legitimate feature.

 

Incidentally, I would actually suggest that the bad experiences people have with dungeon finders vis a vis people whining, ragequitting, leaving unexpectedly, and generally not being helpful players is not at all a symptom of the dungeon finder itself. In all likelihood, the speed and ease of access to groups that these features afford simply causes you to do more dungeons and thus encounter more people more frequently. The percentage of idiots is pretty much fixed - there are so many people in the game that are going to make you miserable. But the more quickly you encounter individuals, the more often you're going to bump into the ones that ruin groups. This isn't the tool's fault. It's just statistics.

 

Incidentally, this feature is more viable in this game than in other MMOs. If someone is being a bad group member, you can kick them or wait until they ragequit - and as soon as they do, hey presto, you pull out a companion and fill their spot until the dungeon finder can drop in another person to take their place.

 

you my friend have nailed it.

[Sendrel]

This is the issue: The only reason the anti-DF pundits can rally around for not having this feature is that it is potentially community destroying. If this is the case, then the solution is to give the community more features and more tools to socialize and community-build, not block an otherwise totally useful and legitimate feature.

 

I think it would be great if game developers would design tools to promote 'community' on servers instead of just throwing everyone together with an LFG tool that was cutting edge a decade ago and washing their hands.

 

But I think the bigger issue is the internet brings out the irrational in people. I'm pretty sure the anti-LFG folks have seen that the community is basically the same in TOR vs WoW and that a dungeon finder tool wouldn't impact what passes as the community at all. But they've been opposed to it for so long that they'll go on wailing and gnashing their teeth whenever it gets brought up.

[KrokodilGena]

I ah didn't read all of the 40 pages, but im sure in there somewhere this was said. Have the LFD tool, but have it pull people from the server instead of cross server that way when you end up with some dumb ***/ninja or whatever else WoW produced in its wake you can just remove him. Even when he/she finds a new group to annoy and piss off people will eventually remember this person and he/she will be getting auto-kicked out of every group, thus hopefully it will keep the *******es in some degree of control and server community will be preserved. Otherwise is just gonna be the days of EQ, EQ2 and DAoC where we all spam the chat with BH LFG for whatever, kinda like now.

[dozerking]

I gave up on finding groups for Flashpoints.

 

My time is too precious to be sitting for 30 minutes on the imperial fleet spamming trade chat. We need a tool that people can use no matter where they are in the TOR universe. This is the only way we can get enough people on each server to see if a group is looking for someone. Only having chat on the Fleet is not good enough.

 

I would be shocked is BW isn't working on something, this is ridiculous.

[TheUnforgiven]

What this game really needs at this point...is a Dungeon Finder. It was a huge success in other MMO's, no reason for it not to be in this game.

 

I disagree that a LFG system is needed at this point, but I do agree that it will be needed in the future. The thing is, will BioWare listen to the vocal minority, or will they listen to the silent majority? The problem with the vocal minority, in this case, is that it suffers greatly from the bandwagon effect. If BioWare really wants to make an informed decision, they need to play games like WoW and see what the silent majority wants.

[netslayer]

there needs to be a LFG tool the one that is in the game isnt working and half of the population dont even use it or dont even know about it, what you have right now is a bunch of level 50 players who probly arent doing anything because it takes way to long to try and even form a group. I myself have not even done flashpoints from 30+ because it is such an inconvenience to sit on the fleet and try to find a group there is no community in this at all.

If some things are not fixed or added this game will lose subs probly subs it cannot even afford to lose in the first place.

[Dubbydubbs]

I agree there really should be a group finder of some sort why spam looking LFG just que like for pvp its simple and can be faster than spamming sometimes all other mmo's have them why not SWTOR:)

[Gazzzenn]

I disagree that a LFG system is needed at this point, but I do agree that it will be needed in the future. The thing is, will BioWare listen to the vocal minority, or will they listen to the silent majority? The problem with the vocal minority, in this case, is that it suffers greatly from the bandwagon effect. If BioWare really wants to make an informed decision, they need to play games like WoW and see what the silent majority wants.

 

if they play wow and use the lfd tool there for any length of time they will not add it here.

 

chances are they will get flamed abused and kicked or see it happening and see the verbal abuse that does go on, i stress that even i didn't see it that often but when it happened it was disgusting to watch.

 

i know and agree that an lfd tool of some kind could work if done right....note i'm saying if done right. that doesn't mean copy wow's lfd tool....i'd never use it ever so it would have already failed to deliver what many want, which is players in queing up.

 

the other thing to consider is how many will use it, i know of far to many in wow that didn't use it due to the way people treated each other even when it wasn't that common, so they never went back, we can not know how many of those players are playing swtor right now and will flat out refuse to use such a feature.

 

so with that in mind i say no to a wow esq lfd tool but i am not saying no to a version that would work for swtor either, as long as it works for this game and isn't some auto grouping spammable feature i say why not.

 

but what could possibly be gained from a tool? some reward? why...just because wow has a reward does not mean swtor should add one, and if it did just exactly what would it reward..there are many a commendation badge and it can't give you them all.

 

to give you an idea i had 4 tanks 3 healers and 2 dps viable for lfd in wow, i always used a dps if i ever went near it, i raided and done pvp on my characters but never would i tank one or heal a dungeon through lfd.

but i did tank and heal hundreds of them with guildies and server formed groups....oddly they were faster to form than waiting in the que of lfd.