'End' game silliness.

[Shadysketchy]

there is a problem when people participate in discussions without employing the capability of reading comprehension.

 

how did you miss the fact that i have stated that progression should come through progression of story through expansions at an even pace - not making people repeat the same worn-out dungeon for 30 times ?

 

 

 

surely - not everyone likes to do anything particular. but, also not everyone has to oblige with the small majority that rushes to achievements - like you.

 

excuse me but its your problem that you rushed to level 48. you may argue you are not rushing, but that's your perspective. apparently game was designed properly for a progression speed of the majority of gamers, and not you.

 

its not anyone else's problem that you rush through things and then get bored. society just cant keep you satisfied, wherever you go.

 

this was also stated in my original post. however apparently reading comprehension lacked there again. or you just dont see yourself falling in that group.

 

 

 

anyone who did raiding in wow would easily tell you the percentages and the gear progression rate. and these are lucky numbers if you end up in good guilds too - some were not that lucky.

 

if someone is not aware of concepts like spreadsheets, places like elitistjerks and what talk goes on there, s/he should not talk about progression/mmo/endgames in grand fashion.

 

 

 

yes - instead 95% of the players should be obliged and entire resources be spent for some 5% selfish minority who were hardcore rushers/progressers enough to be able to see molten core in vanilla wow. even when wow was at its most hardcore point actually.

 

this is actual blizzard statistic. your segment is basically 5%, and you want everyone else to be b**ches to you.

 

we dont want that.

 

 

 

because your 5% segment wants everyone else to be subjected to the same gameplay. the rest, does not want that. you also demand the resources of entire development to be spent satisfying you.

 

your hobby does not supersede others'.

 

 

 

until expansion comes. and only true in games like everquest/wow which are timesinks for exploiting the progressive desires of some hardcore minority. so that they can be kept subscribed with a carrot that slowly drops.

 

 

 

congrats - you are a minority even among the minority that is the hardcore progressives. your kind is rare to chance against. and you are lucky. most of the hardcore raiding guilds quit when their progression was complete in the servers i played in wow. they went to other games.

 

so basically you are among the rare small percentage out of the 5% that has seen wow endgame raids. exceptions dont make a rule.

 

and excuse me if we refuse to have entire game designed around your ridiculously small population numbers.

 

 

 

wooooooooooow. seems like a lot of fun !! ................ ehhh ....

 

 

 

no it wouldnt.

 

naturally in any game, reaching end of a game, would end the game. also your character. in games that continue the story with expansions, you character gets carried to the next expansion.

 

only in everquest/wow timesinks, your character spends more time in 85 than level 84. and that is simply because a huge repetitive timesink is introduced into the game at that end point.. its not that there is 'much more to do' at that point - you do the same thing over and over and over.

 

normally the story should continue into new storyline and environments with a new book/expansion.

 

 

 

'somewhat interesting' does not suffice as 'entertainment'. a lot of things are somewhat interesting in life. yet, you rarely do any of them 40 times.

 

 

 

so basically you just want to reach the max point. so, you are an achiever - not a player. you want to achieve the highest point you can come to, and stay there. and that's your poison.

 

that's also our poison - it poisons games.

 

 

 

 

considering what you said above, it seems to be THE factor. for, if it was chance of dropping of great stuff, purples dropping randomly while you were questing would give you the same satisfaction. if it was progression, progressing while leveling is much more noticeable and engaging than seeing your progression in endgame spreadsheet statistics.

 

basically you are playing to max yourself out and achieve.

 

 

 

respect does not mean that i should see them as valid and i should oblige by them.

 

i respect these inclinations. but, these inclinations dont respect me. see, here you are, just continuing the trend of demanding that games should be entire progressive timesinks with huge repetitions in the end so you can feel maxed out.

 

 

 

yes. democracy is actually really annoying - especially when it allows people like your guildie, who is playing a game for achieving 'being unkillable', and is not satisfied because he is not able to achieve being more unkillable through this or that.

 

basically he was not playing the game for star wars, or environment, or social amenities, or creativity. he was playing it for maxing out and topping out.

 

 

 

and that is the sentence that summarizes the entire problem : you people play games for hardcore progression. and you want everyone else to fit in your preferred progression scheme, or else.

 

see, your gameplay, does not leave room for others' gameplay. its either/or. if anyone is given any freedom/liberty, your illusion of having maxed out through grinding effort in endgame, will shatter.

 

if otherwise, people will be subjected to a long unrewarding grind.

 

 

 

quite. and it is the new phenomenon in gaming.

 

and it is just another pointer how mmos do not need to be leveling maxed-out repetitive grindfests like wow or everquest.

 

 

 

how many people other than hardcore progressives who rushed through, or 'not rushed through' and got to 50 are pissy as of this point in swtor ?

 

noone. millions playing the game and enjoying the story and its progression.

 

progression is possible without repetitive endgame dungeons.

 

 

 

you work the stuff off of 95% majority people - people who enjoy progression of a story at a normal pace, rather than maxing out and grinding in the endgame dungeons for months.

 

because, the latter group, is a very small minority despite the apparent segmentations within themselves - there may be people grinding 12 hours in one boss, there may be people who meet 2 weeknights for 4 hours each to make 2 raids a week. (which group i was also raiding in by the way).

 

neither group can come close to the 95% 'casual' majority which does not like grinding/repetition.

 

therefore, arrangement of 'endgame' instances/content to be 4-5 times runs for this group, would prosper a game.

 

 

 

surely. repeating the same instance 40 times is MUCH better.

 

 

Wow

 

Might I suggest that you condense your thoughts into a more compact, and direct response; to make this discussion easier for all parties involved?

 

Anyway, you're still ignoring what's realistic for the Developers. These demands might be more reasonable for a company as wealthy as Blizzard; but they are simply outlandish for a much lower-profit studio, like BioWare

Edited January 1, 2012 by Shadysketchy

[Enako]

@OP You realy don't "get" MMOs , so I am guessing you at least work in the industry, if not BW/EA directly.

 

Mass story telling is very difficult, it becomes impossible when everyone wants to be "The Chosen One" . You cannot base a game on mass story telling of a personal nature. You can tell a meta story that everyone has a role (however small) in and let the player come up with the details of their story. BW style of story telling doesn't work in a mass enviroment.

 

you are very, very wrong.

 

mass story telling easily works when you drop the 'hey you saved the galaxy' concept. then all players become participants in a big storyline, and moreover they feel that everything is falling in place.

 

bioware's only error is, making all their recent rpgs - and even swtor - so that the player is supposed to be the center of the galaxy. that is not only unrealistic and cheap feeling, but also would not work in a massively multiplayer setting as you said.

 

however if all players are just participants in a grand story, like how it really is in star wars story, and even lotr story, you can make it easily work. in both of these stories noone was the single handed savior - everyone had a role to play, and the end result came through group effort.

 

The allure of "Endgame" is the social aspect of the game.

 

numerous non-wow/eq clone games contrast your proposition.

[Enako]

Wow

 

Might I suggest that you condense your thoughts into a more compact, and direct response; to make this discussion easier for all parties involved?

 

despite the person i replied to in that long post has not brought any new propositions i have not addressed in my original post, i had replied to it point by point out of respect. for him and for any of the same perspective that may read the thread later.

 

i wont do it again.

 

Anyway, you're still ignoring what's realistic for the Developers. These demands might be more reasonable for a company as wealthy as Blizzard; but they are simply outlandish for a much lower-profit studio, like BioWare

 

that much lower profit studio has been pumping out grand story games like mass effect 1, 2, dragon age 1, 2, in the last few years. to the point of 1 game per year recently.

 

with the backing of ea, they can do it much better than what blizzard can.

[WarTornPanda]

i am appalled at the fact that how people, who are in the minority hardcore segment of gaming, think that only their money exists, and noone else other than them pay for games.

 

excuse me, your segment - and my former segment by the way - is just 5%. a measly 5%, even in then-existing rather hardcore gaming crowd of vanilla wow - tbc. all kinds of segments that came to wow, ranging from ex starcraft players to ex everquest players, to ex ultima online players, fit in that.

 

and, from among this entire playerbase of already veteran gamers, ONLY 5% saw wow's endgame raids in vanilla and tbc.

 

a pathetically low amount from among even largely veteran gamer population.

 

who would pay monthly subscription to follow a good story ? pretty much rest of the population.

 

the same people who paid endless amount of cash for kotor 1/2, mass effect 1/2, dragon age 1/2. they are still paying and buying these, by the way.

 

the only drawbacks to these games was that, a new one of them was not coming out every 6 months.

 

thats the delusion of hardcore progressives. you only think your segment exists. whereas you are in the minority. even in veteran gamer crowd.

 

Ignorance is bliss. You assume it would work because no one has tried to launch an MMO with no end-game. What you don't realize is that they KNOW it won't work. A lot of people would pay $60 for a story, but you need to justify a monthly subscription after that. Good luck with that...

 

Everyone should just let this thread die. It's pretty clear that this guy isn't reasonable and really, REALLY enjoys watching himself type.

[twistedtime]

you are very, very wrong.

 

mass story telling easily works when you drop the 'hey you saved the galaxy' concept. then all players become participants in a big storyline, and moreover they feel that everything is falling in place.

 

bioware's only error is, making all their recent rpgs - and even swtor - so that the player is supposed to be the center of the galaxy. that is not only unrealistic and cheap feeling, but also would not work in a massively multiplayer setting as you said.

 

however if all players are just participants in a grand story, like how it really is in star wars story, and even lotr story, you can make it easily work. in both of these stories noone was the single handed savior - everyone had a role to play, and the end result came through group effort.

 

 

numerous non-wow/eq clone games contrast your proposition.

 

 

And raiding is that sense of saving the world, its how developers end their stories. Because that's what mmo's of this nature require, an endgame. You simple cannot remove it and replace it with what your calling for. Can't you see that your creating your own paradox here? Story cannot suffice by itself if your missing the gameplay which needs raiding and the repetition.

 

"numerous non-wow/eq clone games" - were not talking about those games in this thread.

 

Basically what your attempting to do is remove the mmo from the equation and make this a single player experience with dlc.

Edited January 1, 2012 by twistedtime

[Enako]

Ignorance is bliss. You assume it would work because no one has tried to launch an MMO with no end-game. What you don't realize is that they KNOW it won't work. A lot of people would pay $60 for a story, but you need to justify a monthly subscription after that. Good luck with that...

 

ignorance is bliss ? for you ?

 

lotro does that. the number of expansions (books) lotro has put out, eclipses almost all games out there combined - within a reasonable margin of exaggeration.

 

not even talking about eve. or swg.

 

again - to stress it out : lotro does that.. they keep their subscription with content. not repetitive endgame hooks that cater to 5% minority.

 

Everyone should just let this thread die. It's pretty clear that this guy isn't reasonable and really, REALLY enjoys watching himself type.

 

i cant even begin to interpret what you are trying to say here ... but i will keep civility. at the wake of your ignorance.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Enako

[Enako]

And raiding is that sense of saving the world, its how developers end their stories. Because that's what mmo's of this nature require, an endgame. You simple cannot remove it and replace it with what your calling for. Can't you see that your creating your own paradox here? Story cannot suffice by itself if your missing the gameplay which needs raiding and the repetition.

 

"numerous non-wow/eq clone games" - were not talking about those games in this thread.

 

if so, there would be no need for expansions. if the 'endgame' is what works, why is not that endgame remaining there forever, and instead an expansion is coming up ?

 

it apparently doesnt work. then, why not drop that 'endgame' and allocate the immense resources spent to making repetitive things less painful for players, to making new grand stories instead ?

 

mmos do not require an 'endgame'. it is what wow/eq clones had invented to keep people hooked, for some time.

 

Basically what your attempting to do is remove the mmo from the equation and make this a single player experience with dlc.

 

your perspective on multiplayer is gravely limited since you seem to think that 'massive multiplayer' means '20 man raid grinding'.

[Enako]

in any case i will be leaving this discussion for the game for now. thanks to all who participated.

[EzoEo]

it doesnt.

 

it applies to all everquest/wow clones in the market. not all games are wow clones.

 

lotro, for example, pumps out new expansions (books) like there's no tomorrow. granted, they are sitting on lotro lore and have already made content.

 

but its not like the outfits like bioware, blizzard, which also have huge resources and also well established lores, cannot put out content fast enough.

 

Don't me a laugh as you mention LOTRO. The game has not had a decent expansion since Mines of Moria and last two "expansion" were released with missing content.

 

Rise of Isengard was released as bug ridden mess with all the new instances put out as a cotent patch some 2 months later( quite odd how it was the same week that SW:TOR launched don't you thing ?).

 

Turbine also don't pump out new books "like there's no tommorow" and you might get lucky to have 3 updates per year.

 

SW:TOR has been live for less than a month and there is atleast 8 Flashpoints, 2 raids and PvP warzones. So there is enough content to last for a quite a while yet.

[twistedtime]

if so, there would be no need for expansions. if the 'endgame' is what works, why is not that endgame remaining there forever, and instead an expansion is coming up ?

 

it apparently doesnt work. then, why not drop that 'endgame' and allocate the immense resources spent to making repetitive things less painful for players, to making new grand stories instead ?

 

mmos do not require an 'endgame'. it is what wow/eq clones had invented to keep people hooked, for some time.

 

 

 

your perspective on multiplayer is gravely limited since you seem to think that 'massive multiplayer' means '20 man raid grinding'.

 

Ok, this is my last attempt on you.

 

1. There is still a need for expansions with endgames, I.E. WoW and all its clones with their extended content. You propose a player does enough quests and the final quest giver says...good job i guess and your done. God forbid a player gets to that point before your wildly unrealistic rate of DLC has pooped out another addition because there's no repetition so that player has literially nothing to do. Period. Nothing.

 

1(1/2) Oh here's something I really didn't want to get into, how does this games economy work if there is no endgame or need for repetition gear wise? How does the crafting system work if noone needs to buy armor because their are only quests and they give quest rewards? Why should anyone join a guild because what purpose would that serve at all? There's no pvp too because that's endgame content and godforid a player has to grind experience or valor or anything there.

 

2. Good luck coming up with a new grand story at the unreasonable pace that you are trying to acomplish. What's making these stories worth while to the people when so much gameplay is being neglected? Why not just watch a damn movie?

 

3. Propose to me how your system truely works. I promise its 100 times easier for me to ripe this thread apart then for you to conjure a miracle solution to supplement an endgame in WoW like mmo's without changing them into something completely different.

 

FML he left???? omg... i can't believe i wasted my time typing this....someone just say...give me a pat on the back.

Edited January 1, 2012 by twistedtime

[AlkalineKitten]

End Game as it is today is the ruination of the MMO Genre. In a game like SWTOR that gives you an unprecedented high quality of game play and grouping opportunities with Heroic Zones and mid level flashpoints, to see so many come on here and say “I’m 50 now what” just tells me there not here for a real RPG experience.

 

 

I'm not really understanding this point. Other games also offer grouping opportunities in instanced content and grouped quests.

 

As for the "real RPG experience", part of the appeal of an MMO, of paying $15, is getting a continuous stream of content. Personally, when I play MMOs, it saves me money, because I pay $15 a month vs 60-120 for whatever new consoles games hit. I tend to tune the rest of gaming out, for better or worse.

 

If there is no "post-cap content" (let's not call it "endgame", since some people miss the point), then people don't have a reason to keep their fifteen a month going.

 

I don't care if it's raids, PvP, new planets, gear to grind for (even cosmetically), new titles...you need a system to keep people hooked, because even if ToR isn't "designed" for the WoW/EQ type of MMOer, they surely want a reason to keep people pumping money into it, no?

 

I find the people asking about Life at 50 entirely reasonable. They aren't demanding a new raid, right now. They want to know what the plan is.

 

With so many other MMOs before it's time, it's reasonable to expect ToR to have some sort of plan. Right now Bioware has stressed the Legacy unlocks, new planets, and a "whole team dedicated to PvP", so people want more details.

 

It's natural.

 

The blind drones who slam against these people are the offenders, not the level cap inquiries.

Edited January 1, 2012 by AlkalineKitten

[oflow]

if there is an end to leveling there has to be an end game.

 

Your point makes no sense. Stop making excuses for BW.

[Darkhosis]

That's the biggest problem. People think SWTOR is suppose to be WOW, Rift, or whatever and be a gear grind running the same dungeons/flashpoints to death earning stupid raid currency.

 

The meat of this game is in the middle- not at the end... The hardcore raider and PVPer will be shocked but I am overjoyed. A game actually focusing on what I care about- it's hard to sink in. Unfortunately the tears of the cryers are always saltier and Bioware will probably change just to shut them up.

[VashNKnives]

MMOs should be games that aspire to do it all, such as character creation, story immersion, competitive PVP, masochistic grind, platform action, perplexing puzzles, mini-games, etc. The issue is how much and what types of things do you require of your customers and/or give priority to in the design process.

 

I agree with the OP that MMOs shouldn’t be just endgame grind, but those types of activities shouldn’t be excluded completely. For instance, I detest paying to grind with no real story reason and get tired fast of repeating the same missions for a few percent better stats, but I may want to run it a few times and then let the true raid grinders have their fun while I run off to PVP or play an alt. However, players like me would/will quickly quit if the story just stops and we were expected to just PVP/raid/remake alts. The RPG in MMORPG is just as important as the MMO.

[WolfGangFox]

This is going to blow your mind op.

 

Did you ever stop to think that levels 1-85 are the time sink, and 85 is where the game starts?

 

Yes it definitely blew my mind, but not in a good way. What you said makes no logical scene.

 

The game starts when i hit the play button on the game launcher.

 

You could have said levels 1-85 is a boring time sink and the fun starts at 85. That might have been given a wow factor, but would not have blown my mind. I would have just said, why cant 1-85 be fun, or why cant the entire game be fun?

 

Lets forget some discriminating concepts like hardcore and casual, and look at gamers in general. People that play video games all want to have fun. This includes all types of people that play games.

 

If the content is fun people will want to play that content at least once. To get someone to play content over and over it has to be more than just fun it needs to be extremely fun.

 

Lets use a bouncy ball as an example. If i could only bounce it up and down it would loos its appeal fairly quickly. Now lest add that i can bounce it off the walls and it gets more fun. Add in the ceiling and we have even more fun, but the base line consept is sill bouncing a ball and thats all we are really doing, the same thing over and over just in slightly different ways to get slightly different outcomes.

 

By adding in variation and making something more fun over all everyone has a greater experience. We cannot exclude anyone from anything. If we start doing that we start limiting what can be done. By limiting what can be done we limit the amount of fun we can have with any given game.

[Darkeus]

Thats why Diablo had a huge success and it seems noone learned from it....the randomness kept people coming back for more....the dungeons changed all the times.. the items/looks on gear were completely random and unexpected... noone had the same set at the endgame..

 

Good point....

[SarahR]

Yes it definitely blew my mind, but not in a good way.

 

Lets use a bouncy ball as an example. If i could only bounce it up and down it would loos its appeal fairly quickly. Now lest add that i can bounce it off the walls and it gets more fun. Add in the ceiling and we have even more fun, but the base line consept is sill bouncing a ball and thats all we are really doing, the same thing over and over just in slightly different ways to get slightly different outcomes.

 

 

With your analogy there should be no problem with pvp/raiding being the only part of the game as long as you can "shake it up" once in a while, like WoW's hardmodes where bosses are almost completely different.

[SnoggyMack]

I see a lot of people blabbering about 'endgame'. and i recently noticed that it was a silly, silly concept. ENDgame

 

I agree. Orson Scott Card gets way too much hype for a book I didn't even like.

[Lithorious]

I think you completely forgot to factor in realistic expectations for Content Development, from a Design Team with the aptitude, funding, and size of SWTOR's

 

Please sir, we beg you. Stop posting.

[Vihazur]

For regular games, sure, endgame might seem a bit silly. I like it, when games go on and on, in a sort of sandbox mode, rather than abruptly ending, but I can understand that not everyone is going to feel the same way.

 

 

MMOs are different, though. They're not just games, to be played and discarded. They're extremely social, and players like to feel part of the larger community and all that - something that just fizzles, if it's just a linear revolving door sort of game, that doesn't allow for much of a community to ever form.

 

 

This is where endgame comes in. It gives players much longer-term goals, to pursue with the characters they've developed, to be part of the gameworld, instead of just passing through it.

 

 

It can also give a greater sense of purpose to the leveling process - that feeling of working towards something, rather than just leveling up for no reason. I've been through too many MMOs to care about leveling up, just for the sake of leveling up, anymore. I like have something like RvR to give the whole thing some meaning.

 

 

Then there's just the matter of retention. For an MMO to ever grow, it needs to give players reasons to stick around. The longer they do, the more the subs will accumulate, and the more money they can rake in, to keep developing the game, instead of leaving it to languish, while the devs move on to other projects.

[WolfGangFox]

Wow

 

Might I suggest that you condense your thoughts into a more compact, and direct response; to make this discussion easier for all parties involved?

 

Anyway, you're still ignoring what's realistic for the Developers. These demands might be more reasonable for a company as wealthy as Blizzard; but they are simply outlandish for a much lower-profit studio, like BioWare

 

EA/BioWare reported $3.8 billion in revenues for the fiscal year.

 

Activision/Blizzard said it hopes to see revenues of $3.9 billion.

 

Get your facts strait.

 

Now lets look at some history.

 

In 2010 Blizzard made $4.8 billion and $3.9 billion in 2011. That is a loss of 19%.

In 2010 BioWare made $3.6 billion and $3.8 billion in 2011. That is a gain of 5%.

 

So if i look at the numbers BioWare is the stronger company.

 

Regardless. None of this has anything to do with who can make the better game. 3d rate game manufactures can and more often then not come out with great titles that make a lot of money.

[Kabloosh]

I think you completely forgot to factor in realistic expectations for Content Development, from a Design Team with the aptitude, funding, and size of SWTOR's

 

I think its safe to say you can throw all the money in the world at it, but that doesn't mean it will accomplish what it was intended to be used for.

[kalexkhan]

You do realize the cost to develop content is so high, what takes a fully staffed development team 6 months to make, can be completed by the community in a single weekend. And this isn't just a money problem either. Game making isn't factory assemblage that just scales with money once you have a model. Throwing more people at it at a certain point actually makes the process harder not easier.

 

If developers don't put in hooks and gear loops etc. That compel people to do it repetitively it doesn't work. They can,t keep up at all.

 

Bioware could have opted to make a different style game, one with emergent content, and user generated sandbox fun but that would have been completely different, and dare I say even niche.

 

Instead they decided to make this style of game, and we have to live with it, gear grinds and carrots dangling in our faces and all.

Edited January 1, 2012 by kalexkhan

[WolfGangFox]

With your analogy there should be no problem with pvp/raiding being the only part of the game as long as you can "shake it up" once in a while, like WoW's hardmodes where bosses are almost completely different.

 

You are absolutely correct and that is why WoW is such a success.

 

But to say that is the only way is a bit limited. Its like saying i can only bounce the ball off the floor and one wall but bouncing the ball off the other 3 walls and ceiling is stupid.

 

With the inclusion of many different aspects the game becomes better and better. I really wish people would stop excluding things and start including them. The more you have to do the more opportunity you have to have fun, and having fun is why we all play games.

 

Regardless if you have fun in raids, PvP, PvE, crafting, exploring, leveling, exc, exc. We all want to have fun playing the game.

 

Its when you force and restrict people that it stops being fun. Telling someone they can or cannot do something is what takes the fun away from someone.

 

What BioWare is trying to do is to make the leveling portion fun for the people that like it. They have tried to keep the rest of the game similar to industry standards and improve app-on an aspect of the game that has been sorely lacking for a long time.

 

Weather they have succeeded on a grand or overall scale is yet to be determined.

 

So far in my opinion they did succeed in making the leveling portion of the game fun. Weather or not they have succeeded in having a fun max level game has yet to be seen. their are too few players at level 50 to really determine that.

 

I am currently lvl 32 and on alderaan and every planet i have been on has had at least 6 heroic quests (mini raids) and their are 5 maybe more daily flash-points (lower level raids) available to me.

 

If this keeps going like it is their will be a lot of stuff to do at max level.

[Vihazur]

With the inclusion of many different aspects the game becomes better and better. I really wish people would stop excluding things and start including them. The more you have to do the more opportunity you have to have fun, and having fun is why we all play games.

 

I think that with endgame especially, variety is important. Too many MMOs claim to have plenty of endgame, when all they do is keep adding more raid instances.