Exactly how are you supposed to counter a scoundrel's burst?

[thespareaccount]

The issue is that your class shouldnt be able to kill a full defensive heavy armor tank in 2 seconds. A light armor wearer sure, but not me with a shield, heavy armor, etc. Not saying I should be able to out DPS you either, just I shouldnt die that fast to any 1 person.

 

Couldn't use the quote button?

 

From the top:

 

-All of my fights can't be 1v1s, it's just not possible. A lot of my battles are me trying to sneak up on an important target during a big battle. I can't control when that warrior does his AoE ground pound move (I don't know the name of that ability). If he does it when I'm close, he knocks me out of stealth. It's part of the game.

 

-And if you force me to vanish or flashbang away that's a victory for you. It's hard for me to go toe-to-toe in a slugfest against anyone let alone a Juggernaut or a Powertech. All of my fighting tactics rely on that devastating stealth opener. It's just the way the class is.

 

-No, scoundrels/operatives are not helpless out of stealth. But all of my DPS is front loaded. After I do that combo, I need to clean up FAST before a friend of yours decides to help you out. If I can't do that combo, I'm almost certainly going to get killed.

 

-You're playing as a marauder, not a juggernaut. I would hope the tank spec would be more "tanky" than the DPS spec.

 

-1v1 is where we shine. This is not a problem. It's the way the class is designed.

 

-Yes flashbang is very useful, but it's a very situational ability. The stun range is limited, and there's a good chance that someone that uses their CC break or isn't affected is going to come after me and kill me. This happens all the time, believe me.

 

-Point taken, flashbang is very useful.

 

Look, we can do this all day. Different classes are different, and there's a Glass Cannon class in every game. The best advice I can give the people in this thread is to actually play the class and evaluate yourself before making knee-jerk reactions and demands that such and such a class be nerfed and such and such a class be buffed. The other thing we haven't talked about it how there's no warzone brackets and the lower levels (most of the player base) is lumped in with the 40s and 50s. That's obviously going to skew things in the direction of the direction of the higher level players.

 

I've said my piece on this subject, and other Scoundrels and Operatives have come in and stated a lot of our weaknesses. There's even an open thread on the scoundrel forum about how to beat us. It has a lot of good advice and you can read it here.

[ursusarctus]

Couldn't use the quote button?

 

From the top:

 

-All of my fights can't be 1v1s, it's just not possible. A lot of my battles are me trying to sneak up on an important target during a big battle. I can't control when that warrior does his AoE ground pound move (I don't know the name of that ability). If he does it when I'm close, he knocks me out of stealth. It's part of the game.

 

-And if you force me to vanish or flashbang away that's a victory for you. It's hard for me to go toe-to-toe in a slugfest against anyone let alone a Juggernaut or a Powertech. All of my fighting tactics rely on that devastating stealth opener. It's just the way the class is.

 

-No, scoundrels/operatives are not helpless out of stealth. But all of my DPS is front loaded. After I do that combo, I need to clean up FAST before a friend of yours decides to help you out. If I can't do that combo, I'm almost certainly going to get killed.

 

-You're playing as a marauder, not a juggernaut. I would hope the tank spec would be more "tanky" than the DPS spec.

 

-1v1 is where we shine. This is not a problem. It's the way the class is designed.

 

-Yes flashbang is very useful, but it's a very situational ability. The stun range is limited, and there's a good chance that someone that uses their CC break or isn't affected is going to come after me and kill me. This happens all the time, believe me.

 

-Point taken, flashbang is very useful.

 

Look, we can do this all day. Different classes are different, and there's a Glass Cannon class in every game. The best advice I can give the people in this thread is to actually play the class and evaluate yourself before making knee-jerk reactions and demands that such and such a class be nerfed and such and such a class be buffed. The other thing we haven't talked about it how there's no warzone brackets and the lower levels (most of the player base) is lumped in with the 40s and 50s. That's obviously going to skew things in the direction of the direction of the higher level players.

 

I've said my piece on this subject, and other Scoundrels and Operatives have come in and stated a lot of our weaknesses. There's even an open thread on the scoundrel forum about how to beat us. It has a lot of good advice and you can read it here.

 

Thing is your not a glass cannon.

 

Glass cannons dont get vanishe , multiple stuns , ae mezz , medium armor , heals , stealth , evasion , purge

 

Second your point is that 2vs1 can kill you , if a friend of his come to assist? which other class can go 2vs1 in this game rly.

 

again your not only frontload dmg , your damage abilities are all anytime , it has nothing to do with stealth.

 

Your only stealth ability is the kickback ( the stealth back stab does the same dmg with the normal , apart the tactical advantage thing).

 

In fact you got like 3-4 melee attacks out of stealth spammable and like 4 more from range .

 

Also you get 2 abilities for energy regen , that keeps you with plenty of energy to have great sustain .

 

How i know this , cause i had a freaky lvl 50 operative in beta and the same bs was happening back then.

 

Spare me the ******** rly

[KismetTKM]

This reminds me of the time, back in feudal Japan, when the samurai were always whining about ninjas being OP.

[rlpirate]

Thing is your not a glass cannon.

 

Glass cannons dont get vanishe , multiple stuns , ae mezz , medium armor , heals , stealth , evasion , purge

 

Second your point is that 2vs1 can kill you , if a friend of his come to assist? which other class can go 2vs1 in this game rly.

 

again your not only frontload dmg , your damage abilities are all anytime , it has nothing to do with stealth.

 

Your only stealth ability is the kickback ( the stealth back stab does the same dmg with the normal , apart the tactical advantage thing).

 

In fact you got like 3-4 melee attacks out of stealth spammable and like 4 more from range .

 

Also you get 2 abilities for energy regen , that keeps you with plenty of energy to have great sustain .

 

How i know this , cause i had a freaky lvl 50 operative in beta and the same bs was happening back then.

 

Spare me the ******** rly

 

i think u have just /thread. hi5

[Ganan]

think important to point out that unlike many claims here, shoot first DOES NOT necessarily fill resolve bar...

you can skip the talent that gives its 3s knockback if you want to, leaving you free to open with 4k+ dmg to combo right after with flash and nutkick

 

also slows and roots are not affected by resolve... so after that 3s opener of free high burst you still wont escape from the attacker unless you pack powerfull knockbacks.

 

and ofc a powerfull combo is to: first shot-> backblast->vital shot-> vanish rinse and repeat after bar is gone.

or even continue the string with dodge/curtain whip+sucker before vanishing if you are feeling lucky.

 

all this is releavnt in 1v1 wo wich most tanking setups can endure really, but yeah.. it is a most powerfull class no doubts there, not gonna say overpowered too early in the game for that.

 

all in all having the pvp ability ready is key, if the attacker has the knockback talent things become easier to counter, especially in group enviroment.. if he doesnt... well its tricky even with the cooldown ready... and the best thing is to be a tank-ish char

Edited January 2, 2012 by Ganan

[GothicSaint]

Survive the stun (no, you don't die in 3 seconds), cc him back and compensate, if your CC breaker is up, it is becoming a joke, since you become immune to his CC.

 

I'd say, once I break free, I can burst the dude back for just as much and can CC him three times, since leg shot goes through resolve. He can pop his vanish to counter it and waste me (unless I am fast with bubble or put corrosive dart on him), but then he will just get shredded by teammates, with no way to escape.

 

It only looks op, but without his stealth opener Ops is nothing, Assassins on the other hand don't even really NEED stealth.

 

It looks like a duck ,quacks like a a duck but you still say it's NOT a duck.

 

I've been nuked by this class more than once. that opening stun they use is to long and the dps during it is to high by the time you come out and try to counter he has a healthy lead on killing you.

 

It needs to be brought down to give the victim a chance to fight.It shouldnt be I get near instajibe, then I just need to hit you with 3 more abilities and I'm done with ya.

Edited January 2, 2012 by GothicSaint

[Caeliux]

Couldn't use the quote button?

 

From the top:

 

-All of my fights can't be 1v1s, it's just not possible. A lot of my battles are me trying to sneak up on an important target during a big battle. I can't control when that warrior does his AoE ground pound move (I don't know the name of that ability). If he does it when I'm close, he knocks me out of stealth. It's part of the game.

 

-And if you force me to vanish or flashbang away that's a victory for you. It's hard for me to go toe-to-toe in a slugfest against anyone let alone a Juggernaut or a Powertech. All of my fighting tactics rely on that devastating stealth opener. It's just the way the class is.

 

-No, scoundrels/operatives are not helpless out of stealth. But all of my DPS is front loaded. After I do that combo, I need to clean up FAST before a friend of yours decides to help you out. If I can't do that combo, I'm almost certainly going to get killed.

 

-You're playing as a marauder, not a juggernaut. I would hope the tank spec would be more "tanky" than the DPS spec.

 

-1v1 is where we shine. This is not a problem. It's the way the class is designed.

 

-Yes flashbang is very useful, but it's a very situational ability. The stun range is limited, and there's a good chance that someone that uses their CC break or isn't affected is going to come after me and kill me. This happens all the time, believe me.

 

-Point taken, flashbang is very useful.

 

Look, we can do this all day. Different classes are different, and there's a Glass Cannon class in every game. The best advice I can give the people in this thread is to actually play the class and evaluate yourself before making knee-jerk reactions and demands that such and such a class be nerfed and such and such a class be buffed. The other thing we haven't talked about it how there's no warzone brackets and the lower levels (most of the player base) is lumped in with the 40s and 50s. That's obviously going to skew things in the direction of the direction of the higher level players.

 

I've said my piece on this subject, and other Scoundrels and Operatives have come in and stated a lot of our weaknesses. There's even an open thread on the scoundrel forum about how to beat us. It has a lot of good advice and you can read it here.

 

You guys need to read what real players are saying like this post ^^

 

If we fail to unload and you have help, 9-10 times we don't succeed and die.

 

OP/Scoundrel melee is like a Yellow Jacket Bee, once it stings it dies, if it fails in the mission to sting it dies.

 

That is what a rogue class does, it infiltrates a and trys to kill that till death.

 

OP/Sco is not a Healer

 

OP/Sco is not a Tank

 

OP/Sco is not a support even though would could done hybrid

 

It's a BURST DAMAGE 1VS BURN DOWN CLASS

 

Only move we have to save our *** is,

http://www.torhead.com/ability/V73X4H

 

After than have 3 minutes to wait so either we failed and need to go to next target, or we are geting hunted down and get killed due to use not geting away long enough.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Caeliux

[Monterone]

There's an operative on our server who really is a good player, but his skill just bluntly displays how amazingly powerful this class is.

 

I'm a healer sorcerer and I usually run with an immortal juggernaut that guards me. We have mostly champion gear and what is not is either purple slotted 126 mods, raiding gear or crafted purples. The operative just made valor 60 the other day so most of these encounters with him were when he was in champion gear.

 

With a fresh force bubble on me I go down in 2 hits. I don't have time to cast more than one ability if I even get a chance to get one off. My guildie tank says I'm coming over and guards me, says -- you're good now, I got you guarded. I bubble myself. Pop comes the operative out of stealth, kills me in 3 hits now, turns around and kills the juggernaut with close to 20k health in 4 hits.

 

Let me repeat that -- he takes out a well geared tank + healer combo in approximately 10 seconds... by himself.

 

I'd love to make one myself but it's really just a matter of time before they're brought in line. Operatives and their mirrors have been best guarded secrets.

[Lokai]

news flash this game is NOT balanced around 1 vs 1...game will NEVER be balanced around 1 vs 1 and nothing you can do about this and yes, this is how rogue classes work... but with right set up is pretty easy to shut down.

 

1: trooper/BH with stealth scan do wonders to counter this.

2: healer/tank combo will tear this combo apart, do to gaurd, and healing among other things.

3: throw in actual 8 vs 8 or even 6 vs 6 and this tactic falls apart since moment they pop out of stealth they get stunned and ripped apart because were foolish enough to appear behind enemy lines.

 

is no differant then a rogue in WoW popping out of stealth and killing casters ...

 

get pvp gear

stack expertise

get friends

stop pugging

[Jarfunkz]

Stunlock, -4000, -3000, -3000, finally regain control.

 

Wut.

 

Throw out stealth detectors (team mates stagger them).

[Powerr]

same results every game, not balanced for 1v1s. yet the pvp isnt competitive. dear god..

 

as for operatives/scoundrels, you have to just accept death

[MorluCa]

news flash this game is NOT balanced around 1 vs 1...game will NEVER be balanced around 1 vs 1 and nothing you can do about this and yes, this is how rogue classes work... but with right set up is pretty easy to shut down.

 

1: trooper/BH with stealth scan do wonders to counter this.

2: healer/tank combo will tear this combo apart, do to gaurd, and healing among other things.

3: throw in actual 8 vs 8 or even 6 vs 6 and this tactic falls apart since moment they pop out of stealth they get stunned and ripped apart because were foolish enough to appear behind enemy lines.

 

is no differant then a rogue in WoW popping out of stealth and killing casters ...

 

get pvp gear

stack expertise

get friends

stop pugging

 

You are a joke, stop posting and play on your operative. It should not take 2-3 people to counter 1 class. What if there's 2-3 operatives? What do you do then? Do you quit or bring 5-6 people to counter the 3 operatives.

 

We run with our pre-made and win roughly 95% of our games but there's 1 pre-made with 4 Operatives that absolutely stomps us on anything other than huttball. We just can not survive them no matter what. One of our 50's rolled an Operative just cause we'll need one to compete down the road.

[Draccman]

Theres an operative on our server, rank 60 and hes starting to get battlemasters gear and he says he consistently crits for 8k on his opener. I dont see how anyone can be stupid enough to defend that damage like that is balanced.

 

Lets have a hypothetical wow scenario. Imagine that ambush crit for 80k, how long do you think that would be in the game? Blizzard would surely hotfix something that insane within hours.

[Kordoyn]

I was getting killed by the stun/opened as well. Now with 400 expertise and 19k hp I can actually put up a fight and win occasionally. When I finish off my pvp gear and have 23-5k hp it shouldn't be much of a problem.

 

Tank spec vanguard, here is my strategy

 

As soon as you hear the opener (those knives have a distinct sound, not sure how the scoundrel opener sounds) cc break, pop aoe stun. Gut OP to make it bleed, pop shield, pop medpack, toss sticky nade as an extra timed dmg dealer in case he stealths away. Proceed to make generous use of trinkets/adrenals/pvp buffs to burn him down faster than he gets you. If I survive until his armor penetration buff wears off, I'll win.

[Alzdaman]

This whole argument reminds me of Vanilla WoW rogues and all their defenders.

 

"Warriors can kill me, i'm not OP."

 

And everyone who says, "They're terrible if you're not in a PUG." PUGs are what most of the playerbase will be playing, not Premades. Anecdotal evidence of you getting killed / killing Operatives (Scoundruls) does not make them balanced.

 

There is definitely a balance issue with them. A fix without damaging the rest of the class is definitely a challenge, though.

[Alzdaman]

I was getting killed by the stun/opened as well. Now with 400 expertise and 19k hp I can actually put up a fight and win occasionally. When I finish off my pvp gear and have 23-5k hp it shouldn't be much of a problem.

 

Tank spec vanguard, here is my strategy

 

As soon as you hear the opener (those knives have a distinct sound, not sure how the scoundrel opener sounds) cc break, pop aoe stun. Gut OP to make it bleed, pop shield, pop medpack, toss sticky nade as an extra timed dmg dealer in case he stealths away. Proceed to make generous use of trinkets/adrenals/pvp buffs to burn him down faster than he gets you. If I survive until his armor penetration buff wears off, I'll win.

 

So, we need to use a medpac, trinket, CC breaker, pvp buffs, and stun to beat one opposing character?

 

That's Balance.

[Aniliss]

Haven't read every page but it's so clear who the operatives / scoundrels are in this thread telling people pvp isn't balanced and 1 v 1 and to get friends to help. So they rightfully should be able to do about 10k + damage in 3-5 seconds. That justifies balance. There is always a face roll class in every mmo. Regardless though, the situation is what it is so I just deal with it. If I pop all my cds on my Sith Jugg and chain them correctly I have a chance. I was going to roll an operative too until I realized they were face roll. Decided to roll sniper which seems to have the highest skill cap of any class atm. I know loads of people that are rerolling operative just to be the FoTM lol. They will regret it because operative most likely will be the 1st class to get hit with the nerf bat. Edited January 3, 2012 by Aniliss

[MigSebes]

Stunlock, -4000, -3000, -3000, finally regain control.

 

Wut.

 

Easy.

 

Anti-CC. Stun. Pwn face. AOE if he tries to vanish.

[Megatons]

Whoever says they have problems with juggernauts 1v1 need to ****. With 40% dmg reduction, force scream barrier+relic to boost barrier i was brought down from 100-10% health in 1 stun on my lvl 50 jugg by a scoundrel about 15-20 times during a couple of warzones.

 

If i cant live thrue 1st opener as tank with cds popped tweakz need to happen.

[Letsplayrift]

have an absorb on that eats the whole opener like 99% of people do

 

or be 50

[Kordoyn]

So, we need to use a medpac, trinket, CC breaker, pvp buffs, and stun to beat one opposing character?

 

That's Balance.

 

I never said it was balanced, I was giving advice on how I managed to find a solution that is suitable for me.

 

I have no doubt pvp dmg, not just from OPs/scoundrels will be tweaked hundreds of times. It happens in every MMO.

[Aneu]

My co-leader went emo today and posted this

 

Enjoy

 

[Alzdaman]

I never said it was balanced, I was giving advice on how I managed to find a solution that is suitable for me.

 

I have no doubt pvp dmg, not just from OPs/scoundrels will be tweaked hundreds of times. It happens in every MMO.

 

I know, but you were serving more as an example of how ridiculous people are that say it's balanced. Wasn't directed at you, per se.

[Letsplayrift]

this scoundrel is like the bigfoot, he is a mashup of every strange animal you have ever seen

 

somehow he heals, bleeds you out, and 2 shots you all in the same spec

 

ps. those were different scoundrels

[Stormgnoef]

Warzone/bg were never balanced around 1vs1 in any mmo.Go do some team work instead of soloing everything.