"This game is new" isnt an accept excuse for the games problems

[dharh]

so EQ(a game stuck in 1999) is the standard for MMOs today right?

 

No. Stop trying to make standards where there are none.

[PatrickHenley]

What is the best? To play the game as soon as it is good enough to be released or to wait two more years for all the features to be fully implemented?

 

Usually, and I don't know if it's the case here, companies want to release the game as soon as posible to make the money needed to be able to continue the developement. Who would like to invest millions and pass 10 years to develop a game without any profit nor any proof that the game will be a succes at it launch? The mmo business is too risky to take such a faithful decision and i wouldn't.

 

But.... I don't want them to wait 10 years anyway... I want to play it as soon as it is playable. I don't care to play 15$ a month to play it... I pre-ordered it because I wanted to try it as soon as possible even if it was not completed yet. On the next months I will be happy for every bugs they will fix and for every features they will add. That's how I want to play an mmo... I want it to evolve as long as I play and i don't expect it to be finished when it is released cuz i was the guy screaming and crying on their forums for this game to be released as soon as possible.

 

This said, Those who complaint that this game isn't finished aren't sane... would you play a finished mmo? Nope... because you want it to evolve and "finished" mean it won't evolve anymore else you wouldn't want to pay 15$ a month for this.

 

There's bugs... yes... plenty of them... but who broke your arm to buy this game as soon as it was released? Most of us know how the mmo business work and we knew it was going to be this way. I bought it anyway and I think you did too...

 

DO NOT BUY A MMO AT IT'S RELEASE IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO WAIT.

 

Yes, you can consider yourself screwed because this game isn't exactly what you expected to be.

 

But, you can also consider yourself warned because, when the next mmo will come in stores, it is going to be the exact same thing. So wait a couples of years before you buy the game if you want to play something that looks more finished.

[monegames]

I think that it's unfair to judge SW:TOR based on WoW, after WoW has been out for years. If you're going to compare to WoW, do so on Vanilla Launch WoW. Can you even remember that far back? Of days where Ret Paladins had to refresh seals, warriors didn't wield giant two-handed weapons in each hand, people didn't have 150,000 HP, or do 30,000 DPS.

 

I think SW:TOR is well above the curve for MMO's on their launch dates. Bravo, and I can't wait to see what the future holds for this game.

 

ok so i bought the Madden series for 7 years and then comes along an new game in the same genre Backbreaker(who lacked features and gameplay was not up to par with the comp(Madden). I should just keep playing the Backbreaker series till it has time to catch up to madden right? guess what Backbreaker isn't ever gonna catch up cause it wasn't profitable enough to "come on they are just starting out" or "its new give them some time". they don't have time when a single game dominates the market share like madden or wow does. people will compare the 2 and choose the most complete one unless they provide something new and TOR only has VO and that ends at lvl 50.

 

Now let me say that I love the game and will continue to play it but they either need to allow mods for most of these features or put them out asap. the reason WoW now has the features it does is because of the mods they allow. they get to take the most popular ones and incorporate them directly into the game.

[dharh]

ok so i bought the Madden series for 7 years and then comes along an new game in the same genre Backbreaker(who lacked features and gameplay was not up to par with the comp(Madden). I should just keep playing the Backbreaker series till it has time to catch up to madden right? guess what Backbreaker isn't ever gonna catch up cause it wasn't profitable enough to "come on they are just starting out" or "its new give them some time". they don't have time when a single game dominates the market share like madden or wow does. people will compare the 2 and choose the most complete one unless they provide something new and TOR only has VO and that ends at lvl 50.

 

Now let me say that I love the game and will continue to play it but they either need to allow mods for most of these features or put them out asap. the reason WoW now has the features it does is because of the mods they allow. they get to take the most popular ones and incorporate them directly into the game.

 

MMORPG genre vs crappy madden game

 

Good comparison yo.

[monegames]

MMORPG genre vs crappy madden game

 

Good comparison yo.

 

the comparison isnt mmo vs madden its mmo vs mmo and football vs football, and how people look at similar products. Madden is the king of Football and Backbreaker tried take people away from Madden and failed. even though people bash madden as much as WoW is bashed. WoW is the king of MMORPGs and SWTOR is after the same thing as Backbreaker.

[dharh]

the comparison isnt mmo vs madden its mmo vs mmo and football vs football, and how people look at similar products. Madden is the king of Football and Backbreaker tried take people away from Madden and failed. even though people bash madden as much as WoW is bashed. WoW is the king of MMORPGs and SWTOR is after the same thing as Backbreaker.

 

First of all. The way in which MMOs work isn't even remotely the same as a console game such as madden. You can make a comparison on competition, sure, but you can't make a comparison on completeness. There is not a single MMO that has been released as in the same manner as a madden game.

 

Madden may be the king of console football and WoW may be the king of MMORPGs but after that neither have much to do with each other. To compete with Madden is not the same as to compete with WoW.

 

For one thing, Madden IS ALL ABOUT ITS FEATURES. It's realism to real football, its teams, its physics, etc. It's all about making it feel like you're playing/coaching a football season.

 

MMORPGs on the other hand are about _many_ different things. Gameplay. PVP. Story. Features from one MMO to the other are almost trivial.

 

Second, I daresay if Backbreaker made a game with the exact same features and everything as the latest Madden, they might actually be a success.

 

But time and time again, MMOs that are as polished and having the same features as WoW fail to make any headway. Rift Failed. Aion Failed. You know whats going to kill WoW? WoW itself. Nothing else will do the trick. What killed EQ? CLUE: it wasn't WoW.

 

Finally, SWTOR is not after WoW players. It's after Star Wars lovers, however many that may be. So far, its a huge success.

 

Will SWTOR be a success in 6 months to a year? I don't know and neither does anyone else. What I do know is that I wont be going back to WoW because I never played that crap game for more than 3 months.

Edited January 1, 2012 by dharh

[JDSH]

Ability delay due to animations.

Thats all i need, it's a gamebreaker.

 

This ^

[quaesitor]

Agree with the OP 100%. If you want to beat an established rival, you have to be better than them in more than just one way - even if it's a big way (see: voice acting/story). You have to be smarter, faster, and prettier. You have to be willing to do everything your rivals do (see: "standardized" features) and then more (see: innovation).

 

And you have to do it yesterday. Every minute that you spend developing is a minute your rivals are ALSO spending on development. And if they're already ahead of you...?

 

I just don't see how anybody could argue against these simple ideas.

 

I really want this game to succeed, but I'm not going to keep shoveling cash at it in a naive hope that it will.

 

People can blither about how the game is only a week old, but that's not really true. Most of us downloaded the launch client back in November, and it didn't really change THAT much even from the build before it. The largest patch so far has been - what, like 40 MB? Patching means improvements. It means additions. Not patching means...not improving, and not adding.

 

IMHO, whether anyone likes it or not, the developers have very little time (another month, maybe two?) to start rolling out some stuff with real substance before people start leaving in droves.

 

Personally, I'm gonna give it until my birthday in February.

[monegames]

First of all. The way in which MMOs work isn't even remotely the same as a console game such as madden. You can make a comparison on competition, sure, but you can't make a comparison on completeness. There is not a single MMO that has been released as in the same manner as a madden game.

 

madden has a yearly release where they upgrade a small amount of content and add a new feature or two, sounds just like a WoW patch to me.

 

Madden may be the king of console football and WoW may be the king of MMORPGs but after that neither have much to do with each other. To compete with Madden is not the same as to compete with WoW.

 

For one thing, Madden IS ALL ABOUT ITS FEATURES. It's realism to real football, its teams, its physics, etc. It's all about making it feel like you're playing/coaching a football season.

 

MMORPGs on the other hand are about _many_ different things. Gameplay. PVP. Story. Features from one MMO to the other are almost trivial.

 

WoW has better Gameplay and PvP at the moment since TOR has the ability delay bug and the fact that i cant stay connected to the server for more than 15 minutes.

 

Second, I daresay if Backbreaker made a game with the exact same features and everything as the latest Madden, they might actually be a success.

 

But time and time again, MMOs that are as polished and having the same features as WoW fail to make any headway. Rift Failed. Aion Failed. You know whats going to kill WoW? WoW itself. Nothing else will do the trick. What killed EQ? CLUE: it wasn't WoW.

 

EQ got stale to many and WoW was refreshing it was both WoW and EQ. WoW came out at the right time.

 

Backbreaker had the feature that most of the naysayers were pushing to get(real physics), but it only had that feature the gameplay was its best feature, the reason they are still making the minigames but the secondary features were not there and it failed. Im not saying taht this game will fail and I dont want it to. Most of those failed because their IP stood no chance to WoWs. If they would have had lore to back them up along with the features they would have made a real dent in WoW's sub base.

 

 

 

Finally, SWTOR is not after WoW players. It's after Star Wars lovers, however many that may be. So far, its a huge success.

 

They are after the WoW player and the Starwars fan and the bioware singleplayer fan.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Artthen
removed quote of removed post

[Dianoia]

Games are not about features. They're about having fun. So no, it doesn't need to have all of the features of every MMO ever that you like, so long as the experience is fun.

 

If the lack of a feature or features prevents you from having as much fun as you do in another game, then go play the game you enjoy more.

 

I agree that there are features in other MMOs that would be great to have in this game. The reason people compare vanilla WoW to this, is because vanilla WoW has 10+ years of development time, testing, bug fixes, optimization, and creation under its belt. If this had 10+ years of development time, it would still be missing features, because WoW would have added more features in their development time.

 

Really, this whole "missing features" thing is becoming a dead horse. There are twenty billion other wish list/QQ posts about this same issue. Yours gives nothing new, insightful, or constructive that none of the others had. At all.

[Scathan]

Not even close. I'm not arguing from a bias point of view. I wanted this to be a great game just as much as anyone.

But unfortunately that isnt the reality of it.

Reality.

Or you simply have lower standards. Yes i agree it WoW years to get where it is now. You cannot deny the polish.

However with that being said........when i started playing World of Warcraft a month after its launch i was amazed.

The Old Republic doesn't amaze me. Far from it. The sad truth is it is

clunky

unresponsive

poorly coded so it doesn't run well on most machines regardless of your high end PC (doesn't effect everyone signifying the poor coding)

linear

lacking in options and customization

small minded

cumbersome (questing)

lack of a deep endgame

story is a bad WB show

and buggy.

 

It sucks i know but i'm not putting my head in the sand and lying to myself telling myself its actually ok.

Reality.

 

I hear a lot of that "gimme gimme" generation crap. I'm 37 years old, educated, and have been playing video games since my first DOS console BEFORE the intellivision.

I'm too old and have been disappointed too many times not to call "crap" when i see it.

 

 

Im allowed to have an opinion too yes?

 

I find the game to be very smooth, I like the way it feels, It is definitely better than anything besides wow itself, and i would say it is on par.

 

The game is linear, toted as a bad thing, i disagree, They told you forever that this was a game with a story. Sorry to say it, but a story has a beginning a middle and an end, It starts and keeps going until it ends, However, there are tons of quests that could also be done and had great stories independent of your class quest. So how is it linear again?

 

It can be unresponsive, but i only run into those issues in pvp.

 

What type of options and customizations? if we are talking in relation to wow, well.. herp a derp there is plenty more, I can customize my gear, My character is far more customizeable than wow.

 

Small minded; simply an opinion, and a nebulous one at that, moving on.

 

questing is not cumbersome, i quested from 1-50 and enjoyed it the whole time, and it was more challenging than any quests wow had to offer, actually having to use my cooldowns and cc for solo content? insanity.

 

How can you say there is lack of a deep endgame? people are barely starting to hit endgame, i myself hit 50 about 3 days ago, im waiting for the rest of the server to catch up so i can experience it.

 

story: thats your opinion, stop acting like what you say is fact.

 

Its buggy, but ive played worse, wow release for example, Skyrim. Bugs can be fixed.

 

smart 37 year olds can still act like entitled children. What you need to understand is that just because you are dissatisfied with the game, that does not mean that everyone else agrees with you, you arent sticking your head in the sand? well that's fine, neither are we. I am not denying there are issues, But i find it is a good game in spite of them, and worth sticking around for, and enjoying in the meantime.

[dharh]

madden has a yearly release where they upgrade a small amount of content and add a new feature or two, sounds just like a WoW patch to me.

 

 

WoW has better Gameplay and PvP at the moment since TOR has the ability delay bug and the fact that i cant stay connected to the server for more than 15 minutes.

 

 

EQ got stale to many and WoW was refreshing it was both WoW and EQ. WoW came out at the right time.

 

Backbreaker had the feature that most of the naysayers were pushing to get(real physics), but it only had that feature the gameplay was its best feature, the reason they are still making the minigames but the secondary features were not there and it failed. Im not saying taht this game will fail and I dont want it to. Most of those failed because their IP stood no chance to WoWs. If they would have had lore to back them up along with the features they would have made a real dent in WoW's sub base.

 

 

They are after the WoW player and the Starwars fan and the bioware singleplayer fan.

 

Madden doesn't have a monthly/weekly patch that fixes bugs. Features and content don't get added monthly, you have to wait a year. Madden is also teeny tiny compared to WoW.

 

WoW has better 'gameplay' but SWTOR has better story. WoW has more responsive PvP, I guess, but its still terrible.

 

EQ didn't get stale so much as Gates of Discord/Omens of War drove everyone off.

 

I still submit that WoW will be the only thing to kill WoW and the new expansion seems to be doing the trick.

[Matte_Black]

Do you know why Oldsmobile went out of business?

One word, "crap".

 

And i don't have to be an engineer to know it either.

 

Ummm, actually it was shut down because it's product was aimed at an over saturated market share it shared with other divisions of it's parent corporation. Oldsmobile lost a distinct identity between Buick, Cadillac and GMC. Product wise, their products, along with Pontiac which suffered a similar fate had been delivering better cars over their recent past. It simply made more sense to sell what we're basically the same cars in four flavors(Cadillac, Chevy, Buick and GMC) instead of six and stream line operations.

 

if their is a lesson to be taken by the example, it's that BioWare should not try to make the same game as WoW but, make one with the universally favored features of it and take a different direction on some of the more controversial features, as they seem to have done.

 

As far as "missing" features go I see a few categories:

1. Features they could not finish for release
   
2. Features they intentionally decided against that players are on both sides of the decision on
   
3. Features that need to mature with the life of the server
   
4. Bugs and true flaws.
   

 

Alot of complaining posters need to properly identify which category their indicated flaw actually falls into.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Matte_Black

[FerrusPA]

TOR has one big feature: Cutscenes and Voice Acting.

 

What, pray tell, is keeping Blizzard from copying this one feature and putting it in their next big patch or Addon or whatever? They have been doing semi-cutscene stuff since Lich King, after all. All that's left to add is choices for the player to make.

 

I'm not saying having cutscenes like TOR does would vastly improve WoW. What I'm saying is if you go onto the battlefield with exactly one feature, don't expect to hold up too well.

Edited January 1, 2012 by FerrusPA

[PibbyPib]

I continue to be amazed at how infantile and whiny people can be and apparently not feel the least bit self-conscious about it.

[Xerkius]

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

 

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

 

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?

Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

 

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

 

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

 

Exactly!

 

I myself have no problems nor any regrets for actually buying the game, it is really really good and I love it.

 

But the problem is, am I going to continue playing the game?

 

honestly I don't think so because it is indeed missing some fundamental features for modern mmos which for me are addons and macros.

 

I promise you, I really want to continue loving the game but BioWare need to close these gaps. BioWare no doubt succeeded in pulling us in, I hope they succeed in keeping us playing.

 

/love BioWare

[Sunsoar]

BioWare/EA tricked us hardcore by releasing this garbage. It needed a few more months of polish and completion for sure. Nothing like real world dynamics to get your data though. We pay to test now.

[Bowlan]

These pretzels...are making me thirsty!

[SubScene]

Don't blame bioware,i agree,and also,people have said the same thing you have said multiple times,say something new please?

[MrKenjisan]

I can see your point in all this, and I am not necessarily disagreeing with it either.

 

But what constitutes what features should and should not be in the game at launch? I see all the problems most people point out, and yes, they should be fixed. When I play a game, I guess I expect certain elements to be there, but there is a lot of debate about what should and should not be in the game.

 

Yes, it being a new game is not a completely justifiable point to all the bugs and game play issues. A lot of different things (sorry to generalize) make up an MMO. I might just not be able to see it, but I have no clue what all those things are. I've played many different MMOs and they all seem somewhat different.

 

Maybe there is a different understanding between what Bioware thinks an MMO should be and what the majority thinks it should be. Who is to say which side is right? The customer because ultimately they make it possible for the game to continue, or the creator, for without them, the game would not exist? Its basically a chicken and the egg scenario.

 

I do have my disappointments with this game, one, it not feeling particularity massive. That may be my fault, maybe Bioware was always clear it wouldn't be massive in the sense of EVE or SWG. The point is, what constitutes what should be there, and what can wait? I don't mean that as a rhetorical question either, just for me, I can never tell.

Edited January 1, 2012 by MrKenjisan

[pipda]

That car analogy here.

 

WoW 7 years ago would be crushed by WoW today. People can hate on WoW all they like, but WoW really pushed the MMO genre forward. They are responsible for a ton of developments in the genre and bringing some that other games came up with to the forefront.

 

If WoW 2 released today, I am pretty sure they would look at their past and find their best success and failures and make sure the game they put out either had or didn't have those, respectively of course.

 

No excuse for modern "AAA" developers to release a game today with out looking at their predecessors and building upon. TOR didn't improve any of the modern MMO elements, they didn't even have them, even in a poop version.

 

Every time I see someone say WoW was released 7 years ago, I think "do we have to wait 7 years for TOR to catch up and will it still be 7 years behind WOW?"

 

Every time I see TOR is WOW in space I think, I wish! ToR could use half the features WoW has.

 

Sure TOR just released, sure there are bugs...even some pretty major ones we saw in Beta...we can deal with bugs, we laugh about them in a few months. But *** the lack of functionality?! This game feels like f2p indy crap once you move past the VO.

Edited January 1, 2012 by pipda

[Morcova]

The third post in this whole thread says most of what I want to, I suggest people read that it's a very valid retort.

 

However, I want to address one thing. Features.

 

You don't want to release a MMO with the amount of features that your comparison (WoW) has. If this game was released with all kinds of features like WoW then there will be no room for the hard core players. WoW is designed for a casual player right now and is so extremely watered down it ran a lot of people away from it.

 

Over time it is going to have more features added in. Look at Rift and Aion for example. Sure Aion was buggy but both of those had a lot of the features already built in, especially Rift. But both failed.

 

Just have patience, if you are a starwars fan then just give it time. If you want this game to be like your precious wow it will, it will just take some patching and expansions. I personally enjoy the game how it is, it feels like a new game and not a reskinned wow which seems like what everyone that supports your argument wants it to be.

 

I have an idea how about the game with the amount of features that Rift had?

 

Trion was is a tiny company and had the smarts to include basic mmo features.

 

Hell is it too much to ask for a customisable ui?

[pipda]

I have an idea how about the game with the amount of features that Rift had?

 

Trion was is a tiny company and had the smarts to include basic mmo features.

 

Hell is it too much to ask for a customisable ui?

 

Boom! I played Rift for a few months, the end game grind killed me on it.

 

Morcova smacks the nail all over its head on this one.

 

Rift really took a lot of MMO functionality we expect in 2011 and put it in their game at release, it abuses TOR when you put the two together.

[Aramyth]

I keep seeing the same things said over and over about which version of WoW we should be comparing SWTOR to and the real answer is both. The car analogy in itself is complete bull because that's an entirely different product and market. You're not going to have Toyota runnin to your house going "we updated the breaks in your car!".

 

Everyone also seems to forget that wow hasn't been in development for 7 years, it's been live for 7 years. It was announced in September 2001 and you can bet they had already been working on it by then, so it's been in the works for 10 years at least.

 

Now people keep saying features are missing but someone had to decide what a finished product for SWTOR would be, otherwise they could just keep going and going in the development process and this is true for EVERY GAME. It was most likely decided a few months in early development of what features and standard the game needed to have to be required for launch. Now you can always go back and say we need to add this feature etc but someone has to put their foot down and say NO because the game has to meet deadlines.

 

Just saying.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Aramyth

[monegames]

It would be fine if those were decided early on, but that only goes for major features like how crafting works, but many things were added and then removed late in beta. things like the color matching, full modding gear, assassin/shadow range nerf(ranged force attacks were 15m now their only 10m) were put in and taken out late in the beta and many beta testers, myself included gave poor feedback on their removal. I have learned from those that Bioware does not listen to negative feedback on the feel of the game, only to themselves and their beloved "metrics".