"This game is new" isnt an accept excuse for the games problems

[Zeodic]

However with that being said........when i started playing World of Warcraft a month after its launch i was amazed.

The Old Republic doesn't amaze me. Far from it.

 

I agree with most of your point however this one stood out to me. No SWTOR isnt amazing but its a perspective thing. We have played so many MMO's over the years we act negatively to all new game launches if they dont stack up to our favorite current game. We are incapable of waiting to see what anything becomes anymore because we are all getting more and more trapped into the instant gratification mindset.

[skyvortex]

If you bought a PC with everything needed but a PSU and the seller didn't tell you until after you got home and said, "its new...give it time" what would you say.

 

Corporations get away with whatever the consumer lets them.

[Lonewolf]

Originally Posted by skyvortex

However with that being said........when i started playing World of Warcraft a month after its launch i was amazed.

 

Plus you were amazed by WoW because no doubt it was your first forays into an actual MMO. The rest of us old skoolers were like you complaining it was just like EQ and lacked alot of its features.....

 

Oh the irony

Edited January 1, 2012 by Lonewolf

[Gazzzenn]

I agree with most of your point however this one stood out to me. No SWTOR isnt amazing but its a perspective thing. We have played so many MMO's over the years we act negatively to all new game launches if they dont stack up to our favorite current game. We are incapable of waiting to see what anything becomes anymore because we are all getting more and more trapped into the instant gratification mindset.

 

hard to disagree with that, i like the whole instant thing in fps games, but i utterly loathe it from rpg games, having played all types for coming on 20 years from the first warcaft game in the early 90's and fps games of all types and many others i expect the least instant gratification from rpg's, when i get that i stop playing them.

[Kalfear]

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

 

You know, if your going to pull the "Talk down to others" card

 

Maybe you might wanna, I dont know, have a CLUE about what your preaching?

 

Just a suggestion

 

Im 2005 the MMORPG genre had been around for 14 years already, produced multiple highly successful titles.

 

This WOW game you think revolutionalize the MMORPG genre, it didnt have a SINGLE NEW OR ORIGINAL CONCEPT IN IT at release!

 

The only thing primitive here is your understanding of MMORPG history.

 

Not that I completely disagree with you thread title.

 

To some stuff, its not a proper or thought out responce

To others however its bang on the money

 

But none of that changes fact that you are not MMO knowledgeable enough to speak down to anyone else posting, and thus shouldnt do it.

 

Primative, YIKES!

JUST YIKES!

[skyvortex]

I agree with most of your point however this one stood out to me. No SWTOR isnt amazing but its a perspective thing. We have played so many MMO's over the years we act negatively to all new game launches if they dont stack up to our favorite current game. We are incapable of waiting to see what anything becomes anymore because we are all getting more and more trapped into the instant gratification mindset.

 

I was amazed at the smoothness of it. Like your first taste of really, REALLY good tequila after tasting junk for a long time.

[SnaggleFox]

I'm just ganna go ahead and poke holes in the OP because I'm bored.

 

 

1: Many movies are in fact incomplete when they go to theaters. Many scenes are cut out to make the movie shorter, which is then sold in extended editions for more money when put onto DvD/Bluray.

 

2: Many people buy cars without parts, including engines to work on them as a hobby.

 

I just wanted to point that out ^_^

 

Next, no MMO is EVER complete. There will always be bugs, and always more content to come until the game shuts down.

 

I believe this game has more than enough excuses to be incomplete or buggy. BW is new to the MMO scene. The fact that they went straight from RPGs to AAA MMOs is a daunting task they undertook. And I think they did quite well.

 

People need to understood this game wasn't made to be the next big MMO. BW didn't make the game with "Lets get 13 million subs and beat WoW" in mind. The game was created to continue the KOTOR story line. Not to beat every MMO out there.

 

SWTOR is meant for the Star Wars fans, the people who love the Star Wars story, universe, etc...

 

I'm guessing... (my opinion) on why BW made this game a MMO instead of an RPG is because:

 

1: They wanted to make money. Just like any sensible company. And MMOs can be a huge profit.

 

2: They wanted to bring KOTOR fans together. Which I believe they did by adding all the voice acting and such, successfully creating a good storyline.

 

 

Now, people need to understand they're working on patches. It's not like the devs are sitting around laughing at people's problems with the game. It's holiday season right now, BW employees have lives to and most are probably with family and friends. The release date was horrible, probably a ploy by EA to make more money. But the point is they're working on fixes, and that doesn't mean every bug will be fixed in the next 5 minutes. You all need to learn some patience and wait. Unsub if you're unhappy with the game's state and come back in a couple months.

[Culveren]

Do you know why Oldsmobile went out of business?

One word, "crap".

 

And i don't have to be an engineer to know it either.

 

Actually it was incorporated into the rest of GM because it lost its distinction as a brand. The heads of GM were at fault, not the engineers. Oldsmobile lost its way which in conjunction to cost cutting measures and re-badgeing (a major cost cutting tactic no longer employed to the same extent by GM)

 

It really is a shame considering how awesome the late 60s and early 70s cutlasses, 442s, and Hurst 442s were.

 

So your analogy is "one word, crap."

 

There are a whole slew of reasons why oldsmobile is no longer around, and it all stems from how far gm executives had there heads up their asses. Then GM shows off the CTS-V coupe, ZR1, ZL1, and the volt and you can see that their engineers can build great cars, so long as the higher ups will let them. Just wish they would build the Ciel.

[Gidoru]

I'm just ganna go ahead and poke holes in the OP because I'm bored.

 

 

1: Many movies are in fact incomplete when they go to theaters. Many scenes are cut out to make the movie shorter, which is then sold in extended editions for more money when put onto DvD/Bluray.

 

2: Many people buy cars without parts, including engines to work on them as a hobby.

 

I just wanted to point that out ^_^

 

Next, no MMO is EVER complete. There will always be bugs, and always more content to come until the game shuts down.

 

I believe this game has more than enough excuses to be incomplete or buggy. BW is new to the MMO scene. The fact that they went straight from RPGs to AAA MMOs is a daunting task they undertook. And I think they did quite well.

 

People need to understood this game wasn't made to be the next big MMO. BW didn't make the game with "Lets get 13 million subs and beat WoW" in mind. The game was created to continue the KOTOR story line. Not to beat every MMO out there.

 

SWTOR is meant for the Star Wars fans, the people who love the Star Wars story, universe, etc...

 

I'm guessing... (my opinion) on why BW made this game a MMO instead of an RPG is because:

 

1: They wanted to make money. Just like any sensible company. And MMOs can be a huge profit.

 

2: They wanted to bring KOTOR fans together. Which I believe they did by adding all the voice acting and such, successfully creating a good storyline.

 

 

Now, people need to understand they're working on patches. It's not like the devs are sitting around laughing at people's problems with the game. It's holiday season right now, BW employees have lives to and most are probably with family and friends. The release date was horrible, probably a ploy by EA to make more money. But the point is they're working on fixes, and that doesn't mean every bug will be fixed in the next 5 minutes. You all need to learn some patience and wait. Unsub if you're unhappy with the game's state and come back in a couple months.

 

You clearly misunderstand.

 

The question is not, whether there are movies or cars that are incomplete. Nor is the question would you watch a movie that is incomplete.

 

The question is more so, is it acceptable to have an incomplete movie for which the justification of its lack of completion is simply that the movie is new. To which i am suggesting the answer is no.

 

 

I am also fully aware that an MMO is is never truly 'complete' as it is constantly evolving. I quite sure that in my original post i did not use the word 'complete' but rather it was used by those that were replying. Instead i said "lack features" or "is flawed"

 

As for whether or not the game lacks content, i was, as i stated originally, not trying to address that point, but rather address the use of certain excuses to block out(in the minds of those providing the excuses anyway) valid or constructive criticism.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Gidoru

[skyvortex]

Actually it was incorporated into the rest of GM because it lost its distinction as a brand. The heads of GM were at fault, not the engineers. Oldsmobile lost its way which in conjunction to cost cutting measures and re-badgeing (a major cost cutting tactic no longer employed to the same extent by GM)

 

It really is a shame considering how awesome the late 60s and early 70s cutlasses, 442s, and Hurst 442s were.

 

So your analogy is "one word, crap."

 

There are a whole slew of reasons why oldsmobile is no longer around, and it all stems from how far gm executives had there heads up their asses. Then GM shows off the CTS-V coupe, ZR1, ZL1, and the volt and you can see that their engineers can build great cars, so long as the higher ups will let them. Just wish they would build the Ciel.

 

Wrong.

Its because american car companies put out junk and Oldsmobile was the first to hit.

CO's answer to shareholders, shareholders answer to income.

Yes, i understand your point.

 

To the poster above, i played EQ1 and SWG before WoW.

You seem to lack reading comprehension. The context was within the playability not the features.

Edited January 1, 2012 by skyvortex

[Eegorr]

Define incomplete product

 

You spout it alot in your retort but don't even define what you consider to be an incomplete product.

 

To me this is a VERY complete product with regards to an MMO, so I am not quite sure what you expect.

 

Go back and play every MMO that has been created in the last 8yrs at their inception if it was possible and advise me on whether you consider them incomplete or not when they were released.

 

And besides its a ridiculous statement anyway, as by its very nature an MMORPG is never 'complete' its always being updated.

 

Don't you see what you are doing, you are defining a games completeness based on a game which has been updated and polished over 10+yrs

 

Thats like me complaining that a singleplayer game doesn't have the same content as one released 4yrs ago which now has 5 addon packs, and then complaining that they released an 'INCOMPLETE PRODUCT'

 

Do you not see yourself saying this? Its so black and white to me, its so infuriating that others are completely blind to it

 

Maybe we are just talking past each other. I'm not saying that an MMO should have everything it will ever have at launch. That goes against everything an MMO is. I am saying that what's in there should work. I am agreeing with the OP that you cannot hide behind the fact that MMOs take a huge ammount of time and resources to develop and claim that it's ok to ship an incomplete product.

 

The fact that other MMOs have done this in the past is completely irrelevant. Two wrongs still don't make a right.

 

So, my definition of incomplete here is that the stuff that is in there should be working. Currently, combat is not working with the castbars not synching with their animations. Taris still crashes for a lot of people. There are plenty of bugs in the crafting system (try crafting on alts and switching between them and see what happens). Lips often do not move in cut-scenes.... etc.

 

None of these are game-breaking in the sence that I believe they can be fixed quite soon and until then I can enjoy the game. My whole point is that you shouldn't be making excuses for shipping a buggy product. Bioware isn't doing this either, they are taking responsibility and trying to fix it, it's the fans that get behind it.

 

I think a correct attitude is: Yes, it is buggy in several areas, and no it shouldn't be, they should be fixing it soon.

 

I'll restate, that I am enjoying the game, and I will be staying for a while just because I enjoy the stories so much. I can accept that there are bugs, but I will never defend them.

[Lonewolf]

Maybe we are just talking past each other. I'm not saying that an MMO should have everything it will ever have at launch. That goes against everything an MMO is. I am saying that what's in there should work. I am agreeing with the OP that you cannot hide behind the fact that MMOs take a huge ammount of time and resources to develop and claim that it's ok to ship an incomplete product.

 

The fact that other MMOs have done this in the past is completely irrelevant. Two wrongs still don't make a right.

 

So, my definition of incomplete here is that the stuff that is in there should be working. Currently, combat is not working with the castbars not synching with their animations. Taris still crashes for a lot of people. There are plenty of bugs in the crafting system (try crafting on alts and switching between them and see what happens). Lips often do not move in cut-scenes.... etc.

 

None of these are game-breaking in the sence that I believe they can be fixed quite soon and until then I can enjoy the game. My whole point is that you shouldn't be making excuses for shipping a buggy product. Bioware isn't doing this either, they are taking responsibility and trying to fix it, it's the fans that get behind it.

 

I think a correct attitude is: Yes, it is buggy in several areas, and no it shouldn't be, they should be fixing it soon.

 

I'll restate, that I am enjoying the game, and I will be staying for a while just because I enjoy the stories so much. I can accept that there are bugs, but I will never defend them.

 

Fair points but think your find that buggy game releases are now the NORM not the exception

 

I look at Skyrim for example or any of the many MANY game releases this year, which are then patched and updated.

 

Get used to buggy, 'incomplete' games is what I am trying to say, its the norm

 

Hell go look at Skyrim ADDONS to identify how many features it lacked which people created, but people still accept it for what it is, a decent story driven RPG, I think you expect too much from your MMO's which unfortunately causes you to dislike them.

 

The only loser here is you, you miss out on enjoying things because you have such high expectations

Edited January 1, 2012 by Lonewolf

[SnoggyMack]

Maybe we are just talking past each other. I'm not saying that an MMO should have everything it will ever have at launch. That goes against everything an MMO is. I am saying that what's in there should work. I am agreeing with the OP that you cannot hide behind the fact that MMOs take a huge ammount of time and resources to develop and claim that it's ok to ship an incomplete product.

 

A lot of what was launched absolutely works. For many of the complainers, it's for features that aren't there yet. Quality of Life features to boot. Which are always prioritized low in the development process.

 

The major bugs ... like lag and FPS and broken quests are all being worked on. The little stuff that everyone keeps ranting about being "unacceptable" like an LFD tool or a damage meter? They'll get to it when they get to it. It's not essential for gameplay.

 

This game is fine. They're working on bugs and content right now. As the forums rage.

[Fireline]

In the early years of the MMO industry, from roughly 1997 to 2001, there were a few big MMOs that had active player populations. By the time we started ArenaNet in the summer of 2000, we knew of at least eighty MMOs that were in development. Based on the success of UO and EQ, publishers were reviewing their portfolios and planning to migrate their existing game franchises to the online world, where they believed they could adopt a subscription model and "make bank". Clearly, it did not work out that way. As more MMOs came into the market, two things changed. First, players now had a choice about which game they would play, and as a result their expectations for polish, content quantity, and service increased substantially. Second, and perhaps more telling for the future of the industry, it became clear that the subscription model forced players to choose a single game, rather than playing many different games.

 

Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true – you know it, and they know it. Gamers may buy the argument that your MMO requires a subscription fee, if you can tell them what they are getting for their money. This is the legacy of games like Guild Wars, Maple Story, and Silkroad Online, all of which introduced new business models into the MMO genre and were quite successful. The subscription model is still perfectly viable, but the pain threshold is very low now. It's no secret that gamers don't want to pay a subscription fee. If you can convince them that your game offers enough value to justify it, more power to you! But be prepared to defend your decision, often and loudly, and back it up over the lifetime of your game.

 

can u justify the sub so far

[Siphaed]

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

 

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

 

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?

Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

 

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

 

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

 

 

 

Exactly what "features" are you claiming that it's missing? Because if this is another one of those semi-whine posts about missing Dungeon Finder/LFG tool, or add-ons, or whatever that people claim are "industry standards". Well, they're NOT industry standards, not EVERY MMO in the world has them, and just because everyone's favorite pet, WoW, has them doesn't mean that game needs them or is going to have them.

 

Maybe, just MAYBE this game is trying to be it's own MMORPG rather than being WoW 2.0. And, if that's what you're wanting, tough luck, go back to WoW.

 

 

Oh, and how it's "not acceptable today" to miss certain features, that is entirely your opinion. Sure, some share your opinion, but NOT everyone. In fact, for some reason there seems to be 100's of thousands of players able to play right now, since early start (even those able to play during the Beta) without those features. It must be a miracle!

[skyvortex]

can u justify the sub so far

 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand cut

/thread

[Gidoru]

You know, if your going to pull the "Talk down to others" card

 

Maybe you might wanna, I dont know, have a CLUE about what your preaching?

 

Just a suggestion

 

Im 2005 the MMORPG genre had been around for 14 years already, produced multiple highly successful titles.

 

This WOW game you think revolutionalize the MMORPG genre, it didnt have a SINGLE NEW OR ORIGINAL CONCEPT IN IT at release!

 

The only thing primitive here is your understanding of MMORPG history.

 

Not that I completely disagree with you thread title.

 

To some stuff, its not a proper or thought out responce

To others however its bang on the money

 

But none of that changes fact that you are not MMO knowledgeable enough to speak down to anyone else posting, and thus shouldnt do it.

 

Primative, YIKES!

JUST YIKES!

 

I could provide the same advice to you.

 

WoW can easily be considered the first "Main stream" MMO. WoW certianly has a lot of firsts, perhaps not in original ideas, but in popularity. It was also the first MMO that many people, including a large segement of SWTOR's community, played.

I never suggested that WoW was the first MMO, nor did i suggest it invented everything. I was simplying trying to put forth the point that in 2005, expectations for MMOs were not nearly as high. Also that overtime features evolved and expanded, to a point now where these things are demanded and expect in modern MMOs, where as before they were not.

 

So please, spare me you smug 'i have played every MMO in the world and know everything about them attitude' because i can assure you, more people here have played WoW than one of your niche unpopular mmos.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Gidoru

[SnaggleFox]

You clearly misunderstand.

 

The question is not, whether there are movies or cars that are incomplete. Nor is the question would you watch a movie that is incomplete.

 

The question is more so, is it acceptable to have an incomplete movie for which the justification of its lack of completion is simply that the movie is new. To which i am suggesting the answer is no.

 

 

I am also fully aware that an MMO is is never truly 'complete' as it is constantly evolving. I quite sure that in my original post i did not use the word 'complete' but rather it was used by those that were replying. Instead i said "lack features" or "is flawed"

 

As for whether or not the game lacks content, i was, as i stated originally, not trying to address that point, but rather address the use of certain excuses to block out(in the minds of those providing the excuses anyway) valid or constructive criticism.

 

Only the first two points were meant for you, the rest was kind of me just going off.

 

Though to get back to your topic, why do you consider the game incomplete? Is it the lack of a LFG system like WoW? Or all the bugs in the game?

 

Personally, I think the game is pretty complete. I'm one of those that don't want to see the LFG put in game. The only things I find lacking are the GTN UI, UI customization (which I'm really not to caring over considering after playing Aion I'm used to little to no customization,) and combat animations.

 

Other than that, I would compare your 2 first points to an incomplete DvD would be a scratched disk during production (which easier to avoid than buggy coding) and a machinery malfunction in a car factory which didn't place a specific piece in a car which is also easy to catch before selling than it would be to test every thing possible in a game.

 

Edit: But no, it is not acceptable to be sold an incomplete car/movie. But those are 2 different things that are much easier to control than a complex game.

Edited January 1, 2012 by SnaggleFox

[Eegorr]

Fair points but think your find that buggy game releases are now the NORM not the exception

 

I look at Skyrim for example or any of the many MANY game releases this year, which are then patched and updated.

 

Get used to buggy, 'incomplete' games is what I am trying to say, its the norm

 

Hell go look at Skyrim ADDONS to identify how many features it lacked which people created, but people still accept it for what it is, a decent story driven RPG, I think you expect too much from your MMO's which unfortunately causes you to dislike them.

 

The only loser here is you, you miss out on enjoying things because you have such high expectations

 

I know it's the norm, but we don't have to like it, and we should never allow anyone to use it as an excuse.

 

I have really high hopes for this game. It really has a lot going for it and I'm having great fun playing it. There are some things I'd like to see added to really have it leap ahead of the pack, but that is absolutely not a fault of the current incarnation. I do see the difference between a bug, and disagreeing with a design decision.

 

Thank you for the constructive debate at any rate.

[SaltAU]

You miss some fundamental points when making your statement.

 

Everyone keeps judging an MMO, namely SWTOR, based on WoW's 7yrs of development, without considering its not humanely possible to produce that same content and polish over 4yrs of CREATING an MMO

 

Creating an MMO takes time and effort to develop world, assets, sounds, graphics, the game engine and much much more.

 

If you carry on to introduce LFD tools, tons of endgame content and lots more what people have been asking you risk overshooting either your budget or your time frame to release the game, for reference look up the game DAIKATANA.

 

The reality is that people judge SWTOR on WoW's 10yrs of development, not including the 3-4yrs of development time it had just simply creating the game.

 

You cannot I REPEAT CANNOT judge a game based on any game that preceded it, unless you provide it with the same time to grow and develop.

 

Its like a expert pianist criticising an amateur pianist for being no good.

 

Time and resources is something people miss here, and it is a critical reason why NO you can't compare this game to WoW as it is now.

 

And no you can't just claim that because X game had Y features before it then the developers should automatically introduce it at the games inception. It takes time to develop and introduce these things, have some patience.

 

If you want to compete in the big boys playground, you come prepared. No excuses sorry. None.

Edited January 1, 2012 by SaltAU

[SnaggleFox]

If you want to compete in the big boys playground, you come prepared. No excuses sorry. None.

 

SWTOR wasn't created to compete with WoW. It was created to please Star Wars fans.

 

Get over it.

[Halacs]

My point stands. I get your reasoning but it still fails to explain why so many hang out here after deciding that the game isn't for them. If you find something lacking, why do you sit around and constantly complain about it instead of simply moving on to something that more readily fits your stated requirements.

 

Because we want the game to succeed and are hoping to affect change.

[Nomagon]

SWTOR wasn't created to compete with WoW. It was created to please Star Wars fans.

 

Get over it.

 

LoL at this. I'm a Star Wars fan. Not pleased.

[LeSamourai]

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

 

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

 

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?

Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

 

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

 

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

 

 

Yea, terrible analogies bro. Do car engines, movies, etc CONTINUE to improve with time? Oh, that's right, you are comparing ******** to ********. Nice job bro

 

You are being just as silly as the people you are complaining about. Of COURSE a game can be given a free pass at launch, almost ALL MMOs are for at least a couple months.

 

You guys fail to realize that they need to make some *********** money, they can't sit on their asses with a product, adding in EVERY *********** THING some kid wants. They need to "GET TO MARKET", comprende?

 

Things can EASILY be added in at a later date. Seriously, relax or ****, I don't care which, but I'm tired of reading stupid threads like this OP.

[Fireline]

SWTOR wasn't created to compete with WoW. It was created to please Star Wars fans.

 

Get over it.

 

I think the EA guy was quite pleased anouncing they were going to beat activision in every gaming genre, I do remember very well him saying that BF3 was just the start.

 

If you think that SWTOR is not a direct response to activision's hold on the market you are incredibly naive.

 

Also, they tried it with WAR to, EA is getting IP licenses left and right to try and beat wow at their own game, when what they should probably do is their own MMO that would break WoW in half

Edited January 1, 2012 by Fireline