"This game is new" isnt an accept excuse for the games problems

[Gidoru]

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

 

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

 

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?

Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

 

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

 

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Gidoru

[Thorun]

Good post but the fanbois will be in here soon insulting you and telling to you go back to wow or something silly like that.

[lykor]

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

 

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

 

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?

Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

 

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

 

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

 

Although I agree completely with you, you will get tons of hate and flame posts.

 

Start counting

 

But again, don't blame Bioware. EA is the one to blame.

Edited January 1, 2012 by lykor

[Lonewolf]

You miss some fundamental points when making your statement.

 

Everyone keeps judging an MMO, namely SWTOR, based on WoW's 7yrs of development, without considering its not humanely possible to produce that same content and polish over 4yrs of CREATING an MMO

 

Creating an MMO takes time and effort to develop world, assets, sounds, graphics, the game engine and much much more.

 

If you carry on to introduce LFD tools, tons of endgame content and lots more what people have been asking you risk overshooting either your budget or your time frame to release the game, for reference look up the game DAIKATANA.

 

The reality is that people judge SWTOR on WoW's 10yrs of development, not including the 3-4yrs of development time it had just simply creating the game.

 

You cannot I REPEAT CANNOT judge a game based on any game that preceded it, unless you provide it with the same time to grow and develop.

 

Its like a expert pianist criticising an amateur pianist for being no good.

 

Time and resources is something people miss here, and it is a critical reason why NO you can't compare this game to WoW as it is now.

 

And no you can't just claim that because X game had Y features before it then the developers should automatically introduce it at the games inception. It takes time to develop and introduce these things, have some patience.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Lonewolf

[Nabroleon]

It would also help if you listed the flaws and fundamental features missing.

[Bloodtau]

I posted about this a few days ago. Being knew won't give it immunity from ANYTHING. It's in a market where more complete and fun games are the same price (or cheaper). It could have been new years ago and stood a chance, but it no longer can. Cut it from the start or don't cut it at all.

[Zones]

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

 

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

 

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?

Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

 

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

 

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

 

Considering you listed no flaws I'm going to guess you're one of those people who lists every single feature wow has that swtor doesn't as a flaw?

[skyvortex]

I think people are starting to understand how good of a game WoW actually is.

This game would have been awesome if it were released in 2003 but alas, thats not what's happening.

 

Love it or hate it, WoW set a standard, possibly killing the genre in the process.

Don't get me wrong, i'm tired of WoW and have been for several years, i just happen to like MMOs and will play the best available.

 

What sucks is that i'm a huge Star Wars fan now nobody will touch a star wars IP for a MMO for a very, very long time. They had so much to work with and they blew it.

Even more disheartening is that i convinced people to buy the game.

 

After 7 years i wont go back to Warcraft. The PvP there has been screwed up for a very long time so there is the paradox. I like MMOs so much that i refuse to go back to the leading game but this is virtually unplayable in a lot of cases.

 

The people that defend it with their last breath aren't actually arguing for the game, they are trying to convince themselves its not as bad as they actually know it is.

[Gazzzenn]

here's a hint into game design on this scale.

 

get the game to work first then start adding features.

 

features can be added at will, however should bioware wait to add such features means the game is not gonna go live.

 

mmo's should not be compared to other games they are living breathing games that need alot of support to work.

 

i could point out many a film that really shouldn't have been released if you like, badly edited piss poor scene continuity amoung other things, wooden actors that should have stayed in their previous jobs, cgi that would make a kid with crayola think he's awesome as he did a better job at the tender age of 4, crap scripts that should have been binned the moment they were read and burned just to be sure they never grace a cinema screen.

 

so the game isn't fully ironed out yet some problems and some issues are still present in the game big deal the fact is it has not been tested on this scale yet and even with all the beta testing it went through bugs still slip through the cracks as now were starting to really push the games boundaries to the point of breaking.

 

this is a new game and while your right it is not an excuse it is a valid reason to have patience, they can't release bug fixes for a shoddy film they can release bug fixes for a game that is the core difference you forgot.

 

and it's not being batted about as if to say it's an excuse, if you are so skilled that you can debug this games code for every viable computer build and make it bug free and i mean completly bug free then apply for a job with bioware and stop assuming it's an easy thing to do.

[Antifaith]

Considering you listed no flaws I'm going to guess you're one of those people who lists every single feature wow has that swtor doesn't as a flaw?

 

Ability delay due to animations.

Thats all i need, it's a gamebreaker.

[Gidoru]

Considering you listed no flaws I'm going to guess you're one of those people who lists every single feature wow has that swtor doesn't as a flaw?

 

If you would bother to actually read what i have written, you would note the part in which i state this post is directed at those who make excuses for this game agaisnt constructive criticism or valid concerns. As such my intent was clearly not to list SWTORs flaws or missing features. Perhaps you should take the time to understand and consider what you are responding to before making thoughless remarks.

[snakester]

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

 

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

 

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?

Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

 

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

 

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

 

 

The third post in this whole thread says most of what I want to, I suggest people read that it's a very valid retort.

 

However, I want to address one thing. Features.

 

You don't want to release a MMO with the amount of features that your comparison (WoW) has. If this game was released with all kinds of features like WoW then there will be no room for the hard core players. WoW is designed for a casual player right now and is so extremely watered down it ran a lot of people away from it.

 

Over time it is going to have more features added in. Look at Rift and Aion for example. Sure Aion was buggy but both of those had a lot of the features already built in, especially Rift. But both failed.

 

Just have patience, if you are a starwars fan then just give it time. If you want this game to be like your precious wow it will, it will just take some patching and expansions. I personally enjoy the game how it is, it feels like a new game and not a reskinned wow which seems like what everyone that supports your argument wants it to be.

[skyvortex]

and it's not being batted about as if to say it's an excuse, if you are so skilled that you can debug this games code for every viable computer build and make it bug free and i mean completly bug free then apply for a job with bioware and stop assuming it's an easy thing to do.

 

Do you know why Oldsmobile went out of business?

One word, "crap".

 

And i don't have to be an engineer to know it either.

[Zeodic]

The people that defend it with their last breath aren't actually arguing for the game, they are trying to convince themselves its not as bad as they actually know it is.

 

You know I keep seeing things like this and its sort of a pot and kettle comment.

 

I cant defend it because I am trying to convince myself that I am enjoying the heck out of a bad game. You can't abuse it then beacuse you are just trying to deny that you hate the heck out of a good game...

 

Is'nt circular logic fun?

[Zutar]

Please, everyone needs to realize that this is an MMO. MMOs are NEVER released bug free and with all features in. MMOs are always in the work, heck, WOW still have patches and updates no? EQ does after his zillions expansions and more than 10 years of existing.

 

Would it be fair for a single game to release like this? No

 

But an MMO, yes, most of bugs are going to be fix in next weeks/months and that is fair enough.

[Gidoru]

here's a hint into game design on this scale.

 

get the game to work first then start adding features.

 

features can be added at will, however should bioware wait to add such features means the game is not gonna go live.

 

mmo's should not be compared to other games they are living breathing games that need alot of support to work.

 

Firstly, can you list for me the successful MMOs that you have developed? In the probable case you cannot, ill withhold considering your 'expert' opinion and insights into making a MMO.

 

Futhermore, features can certainly be added later. It is a pity however that players (subscribers) make or break a MMO. It is also a pity that players are not very forgiving. They will not wait a year for you catch up in features. Seeing as the goal for this game is to make a successful and long lasting MMO, i dont think the "add features later" approach is acceptable.

 

i could point out many a film that really shouldn't have been released if you like, badly edited piss poor scene continuity amoung other things, wooden actors that should have stayed in their previous jobs, cgi that would make a kid with crayola think he's awesome as he did a better job at the tender age of 4, crap scripts that should have been binned the moment they were read and burned just to be sure they never grace a cinema screen.

 

so the game isn't fully ironed out yet some problems and some issues are still present in the game big deal the fact is it has not been tested on this scale yet and even with all the beta testing it went through bugs still slip through the cracks as now were starting to really push the games boundaries to the point of breaking.

 

this is a new game and while your right it is not an excuse it is a valid reason to have patience, they can't release bug fixes for a shoddy film they can release bug fixes for a game that is the core difference you forgot.

 

and it's not being batted about as if to say it's an excuse, if you are so skilled that you can debug this games code for every viable computer build and make it bug free and i mean completly bug free then apply for a job with bioware and stop assuming it's an easy thing to do.

 

I nor anyone else owes Bioware any patience. If this game were free or did not have a monthly subscription fee, then certainly they would be entitled. However people subscribing to this game are paying for service and content. If Bioware cannot provide it they will stop playing.

As for why one does not simply 'stop playing if you dont like it' . As i have said, many people including myself WANT to like and play the game, however it is difficult to justify doing so if you find fundamental flaws. Futhermore another concern for many players is that they WANT to play a popular and successful MMO. As such there is a concern not just for ones own enjoyment, but perhaps that of others, in so far as it provides more people to play with.

[Sinister-Sith]

The people that defend it with their last breath aren't actually arguing for the game, they are trying to convince themselves its not as bad as they actually know it is.

Or they know that all of the majour issues are going to be fixed in time, and choose not to whine and complain about it on the forums... especially when there's 93120310392103913209 million topics expressing the same ideas, opinions, hatred, etc.

 

All-in-all, I think this is a FANTASTIC game. It is absolutely amazing in almost every way.

 

As far as this game being virtually "unplayable"... no. Not by a long shot! Sorry to say. I have had NO hindering issues playing this game. I spent $150 on the CE, and I will fork over my $15 monthly subscription until the very end!

[Nabroleon]

If you would bother to actually read what i have written, you would note the part in which i state this post is directed at those who make excuses for this game agaisnt constructive criticism or valid concerns. As such my intent was clearly not to list SWTORs flaws or missing features. Perhaps you should take the time to understand and consider what you are responding to before making thoughless remarks.

 

Welp, I fail to see the point of starting a whole thread about something most people know already.

[Eegorr]

You miss some fundamental points when making your statement.

 

No, I think you are missing a few

 

Everyone keeps judging an MMO, namely SWTOR, based on WoW's 7yrs of development, without considering its not humanely possible to produce that same content and polish over 4yrs of CREATING an MMO

 

This statement is false. If we run with WoW as the example, lots of the time spent has been spent creating new content for the different expansions -- content that is not used at all any longer (who runs AQ40 these days) but that still took a lot of time to develop. Another thing that does take time is to come up with what ideas work and do the proper research, but once this research has been done other companies can leach off of that work -- it's not patented thank god.

 

 

Creating an MMO takes time and effort to develop world, assets, sounds, graphics, the game engine and much much more.

 

This is absolutely true. MMOs take more time to develop than most games -- but it's still not an excuse to ship an incomplete product.

 

If you carry on to introduce LFD tools, tons of endgame content and lots more what people have been asking you risk overshooting either your budget or your time frame to release the game, for reference look up the game DAIKATANA.

 

This holds for any type of development and is part of the business. Again, it's no excuse for shipping an unfinished product.

 

The reality is that people judge SWTOR on WoW's 10yrs of development, not including the 3-4yrs of development time it had just simply creating the game.

 

Of course they do. They should.

 

You cannot I REPEAT CANNOT judge a game based on any game that preceded it, unless you provide it with the same time to grow and develop.

No, because that game has done lots of the heavy pulling for you already. You can pick and choose what you want and what you think works without putting as many resources into it -- an LFG tool (which I hope they never add) can be copied quite easily if you just take it as is.

 

Its like a expert pianist criticising an amateur pianist for being no good.

 

No, it's like buying a car that you start with a crank because that's what we did with early cars.

 

Time and resources is something people miss here, and it is a critical reason why NO you can't compare this game to WoW as it is now.

 

And no you can't just claim that because X game had Y features before it then the developers should automatically introduce it at the games inception. It takes time to develop and introduce these things, have some patience.

 

I agree that we should have paitence and that things will pan out and come along. Howevel, I agree 100% with OP that you shouldn't be making excuses for shipping an unfinished product. All MMOs evolve, but mostly through content. When new game mechanics are added, then these should be tried and tested and they should function completely at launch. We demand this of most other products, but not software for some weird reason.

 

With that said, and I state this in most my posts, I am enjoying the game very much. But you most certainly CAN demand more of a game released today than 8 years ago. The industry has moved on since then.

[Gazzzenn]

I think people are starting to understand how good of a game WoW actually is.

This game would have been awesome if it were released in 2003 but alas, thats not what's happening.

 

Love it or hate it, WoW set a standard, possibly killing the genre in the process.

Don't get me wrong, i'm tired of WoW and have been for several years, i just happen to like MMOs and will play the best available.

 

What sucks is that i'm a huge Star Wars fan now nobody will touch a star wars IP for a MMO for a very, very long time. They had so much to work with and they blew it.

Even more disheartening is that i convinced people to buy the game.

 

After 7 years i wont go back to Warcraft. The PvP there has been screwed up for a very long time so there is the paradox. I like MMOs so much that i refuse to go back to the leading game but this is virtually unplayable in a lot of cases.

 

The people that defend it with their last breath aren't actually arguing for the game, they are trying to convince themselves its not as bad as they actually know it is.

 

wow set a standard for blizzard not the genre. and they themselves failed to deliver that standard over multiple expansions, they themselves even admited that.

 

while udluar their finest raid came after a long period of a reused naxx it was still in it's own right the best raid to grace that game, thats because it had lore and quests dating back years with dungeons preceding it in classic wow like uldum...or what ever that one is in loch modan. oh and they aren't doing a raid on that scale again so what exactly is there to look forward to in wow when it's most glorious time has long since passed.

 

wow has some great aspects that can not be denied the user interface(default or modded) and reaction of the characters is nigh on perfect.

 

however it seriously lacks the rpg element of the genre, that has been a major thorn for many a player joining the game from other games that have done it far far better.

 

now wow did get the mmo part right then they added cross realm lfd...and for some that caused serious problems whether you seen them or not does not mean they weren't there.

 

like it or loathe it tera could have brought a whole new dimension to the genre with it's non target combat, i was really hoping it would have been better than it was, as a game it had the potential to truly do some good for the genre but some additional features added somewhat ruined the game for pvpers and pvers alike.

 

gw2 will be dropping the whole trinity system so again we'll have a game coming that could either help to revolutionize the genre or find it's self stuck with a system that isn't workable for top teir gaming.

 

wow presents nothing new even it's so called new features aren't exactly ground breaking, and mists of pandaria is offering a side game that was invented in japan in 1995 clearly not a new feature or a feature that many regard as needed or wanted...some do obviously but then we wonder what the hell they are doing spending that much time developing that instead of epic raids that are trully memorable.

 

i don't compare swtor to wow why? swtor has rpg wow does not, it's been a long time since wow had a story worth telling or paying attention to.

[Gidoru]

Welp, I fail to see the point of starting a whole thread about something most people know already.

 

If you would read about 80% of the posts on this forum, you would realize that this is something most people CLEARLY DO NOT know.

[McAvinue]

Let me preface this by saying this isnt a post trashing the game or complaining. This is a post directed at those who that throw around ridiculous and unfounded excuses at the slightest criticism(constructive or not) about this game.

 

The fact that this game is new or just came out is not an excuse for any flaws or missing features.

 

Would you go see a movie that was only 70% complete and had no ending, just because its 'new' ?

Would you buy a car with no engine? I guess thats fine because its new.

 

Bioware knew full well the types of features and content modern MMOs have. They seemingly had plenty of time and resources to develop this game. Players thinking about purchasing or continuing to play this game are completely justified in expecting that any missing content or features should have been present at launch. Moreover, most of them are complaining because they WANT to like the game and continuing playing, it is simply difficult to justify paying a monthly fee or playing a game you know is lacking fundamental features.

 

Futhermore the fact that WoW or any other MMO did not have "X feature" when it was released is not any better an excuse. This game is not competing with WoW of 2005, it is competing with the WoW(and other MMOs) of today. In 2005 MMOs were more primative, and less fleshed out, it was acceptable and common to lack certain features, it is however NOT acceptable today.

 

Rift came out this year, and its UI and gaming mechanics were great. Within a short time they also added most of the features people here are complaining about. Do I get credit for comparing two games that came out in the same year, but one is sorely lacking in features and the other is not?

Edited January 1, 2012 by McAvinue

[skyvortex]

You know I keep seeing things like this and its sort of a pot and kettle comment.

 

I cant defend it because I am trying to convince myself that I am enjoying the heck out of a bad game. You can't abuse it then beacuse you are just trying to deny that you hate the heck out of a good game...

 

Is'nt circular logic fun?

 

Not even close. I'm not arguing from a bias point of view. I wanted this to be a great game just as much as anyone.

But unfortunately that isnt the reality of it.

Reality.

Or you simply have lower standards. Yes i agree it WoW years to get where it is now. You cannot deny the polish.

However with that being said........when i started playing World of Warcraft a month after its launch i was amazed.

The Old Republic doesn't amaze me. Far from it. The sad truth is it is

clunky

unresponsive

poorly coded so it doesn't run well on most machines regardless of your high end PC (doesn't effect everyone signifying the poor coding)

linear

lacking in options and customization

small minded

cumbersome (questing)

lack of a deep endgame

story is a bad WB show

and buggy.

 

It sucks i know but i'm not putting my head in the sand and lying to myself telling myself its actually ok.

Reality.

 

I hear a lot of that "gimme gimme" generation crap. I'm 37 years old, educated, and have been playing video games since my first DOS console BEFORE the intellivision.

I'm too old and have been disappointed too many times not to call "crap" when i see it.

Edited January 1, 2012 by skyvortex

[Lonewolf]

incomplete product.

 

Define incomplete product

 

You spout it alot in your retort but don't even define what you consider to be an incomplete product.

 

To me this is a VERY complete product with regards to an MMO, so I am not quite sure what you expect.

 

Go back and play every MMO that has been created in the last 8yrs at their inception if it was possible and advise me on whether you consider them incomplete or not when they were released.

 

And besides its a ridiculous statement anyway, as by its very nature an MMORPG is never 'complete' its always being updated.

 

Don't you see what you are doing, you are defining a games completeness based on a game which has been updated and polished over 10+yrs

 

Thats like me complaining that a singleplayer game doesn't have the same content as one released 4yrs ago which now has 5 addon packs, and then complaining that they released an 'INCOMPLETE PRODUCT'

 

Do you not see yourself saying this? Its so black and white to me, its so infuriating that others are completely blind to it

Edited January 1, 2012 by Lonewolf

[Gazzzenn]

Firstly, can you list for me the successful MMOs that you have developed? In the probable case you cannot, ill withhold considering your 'expert' opinion and insights into making a MMO.

 

Futhermore, features can certainly be added later. It is a pity however that players (subscribers) make or break a MMO. It is also a pity that players are not very forgiving. They will not wait a year for you catch up in features. Seeing as the goal for this game is to make a successful and long lasting MMO, i dont think the "add features later" approach is acceptable.

 

 

 

I nor anyone else owes Bioware any patience. If this game were free or did not have a monthly subscription fee, then certainly they would be entitled. However people subscribing to this game are paying for service and content. If Bioware cannot provide it they will stop playing.

As for why one does not simply 'stop playing if you dont like it' . As i have said, many people including myself WANT to like and play the game, however it is difficult to justify doing so if you find fundamental flaws. Futhermore another concern for many players is that they WANT to play a popular and successful MMO. As such there is a concern not just for ones own enjoyment, but perhaps that of others, in so far as it provides more people to play with.

 

your paying for continued service and content, if you want it all now yesterday last week then your really playing the wrong genre of game.

 

oh i never said stop playing if you don't like it, i didn't even hint at that untill my above remark.

 

i'm sorry but i don't need a degree in game design to know that you need a working product to build on before you build on it...thats common sence....and something that is taught in more sectors than just gaming....

 

do you put the doors and windows on a building that is just gonna fall down? no same principle, you wait till the building works as a structure before doing anything.

 

all bioware have done is create a product in a genre of gaming that relies heavily on patching and updating and alot of support.

 

also and i say this assuming you didn't read it, they have stated there will be a rather large content patch this month...so patience maybe?