Dear Broadsword .. update to GTN has ruined my game.

[SoyElSenado]

19 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

The benefit of stopping the previous issues of the old GTN was worth the buyers always buying the cheapest first with anonymity for both parties.

Huh? This doesn’t make any sense. You can get all those benefits and have the same new GTN they made, while still allowing players to select the price of the item they buy. The WoW AH does this and it works great. It’s not mutually exclusive. Only being able to buy the lowest price item is ridiculous. 

[TrixxieTriss]

5 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

Huh? This doesn’t make any sense. You can get all those benefits and have the same new GTN they made, while still allowing players to select the price of the item they buy. The WoW AH does this and it works great. It’s not mutually exclusive. Only being able to buy the lowest price item is ridiculous. 

💯 this 👆

[Savyl]

54 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

ore I think about it, the more it seems this is could be their plan all along. It’s not about fixing the economy for the players. It’s about driving crafters from the economy & fixing it for their CM sales. 

I actually considered this too.

[juliushorst]

It's another example of fixing something that wasn't broken, trying to re-invent the wheel, coming up with a triangle and calling it a better wheel. Same as the interface, same as gearing, same as scaling.

Luckily they improved all those things after they got negative reception. Hopefully they'll do the same with GTN.

[Darkestmonty]

6 hours ago, SoyElSenado said:

Huh? This doesn’t make any sense. You can get all those benefits and have the same new GTN they made, while still allowing players to select the price of the item they buy. The WoW AH does this and it works great. It’s not mutually exclusive. Only being able to buy the lowest price item is ridiculous. 

or just have players buy the cheapest possible. Why would I want to avoid buying the cheapest items just because I noticed one for 1,999,998 credits, one for 1,999,999 credits, then a third one for 2,500,000 credits.

Why should I be insulted that two players have undercut each other 1 credit at a time until they dropped the price from 2,500,000 credits to 1,999,998 credits? Let undercutters drop the price, it works out for me as a buyer.

Forcing the cheapest to be bought also stops credit sale transfers. Certain services would let players set up trash auctions for 3 billion and buy it making the credit transfer look legitimate. Sure the player lost some bought credits due to the GTN tax but it helped hide the fact that they were buying credits.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[SoyElSenado]

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

or just have players buy the cheapest possible. Why would I want to avoid buying the cheapest items just because I noticed one for 1,999,998 credits, one for 1,999,999 credits, then a third one for 2,500,000 credits.

What you want to do and what you are or are not "insulted" by is not the only consideration. Many players as you have seen in this thread and in the several others about the GTN changes do not like the 1 credit undercutting. These players used to be able to buy the original/higher priced version to avoid patronizing sellers they felt to be doing a scummy practice. Now that autonomy is removed from them. It clearly makes a huge deal to these players, and I don't know why you are unable to empathize with them.

I actually am more in line with you and generally used to just buy the lowest priced item too, mostly because I just didn't pay attention to whether someone was undercutting or not. But the fact that you and I view it that way doesn't mean that needs to be imposed on everyone else - it does not benefit the wider player base to force people to buy the cheapest item and disallow player autonomy. Why take away the option/ability from people who really care about this when it benefits nobody other than the developers who get to cut a corner in coding the GTN?

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

Forcing the cheapest to be bought also stops credit sale transfers. Certain services would let players set up trash auctions for 3 billion and buy it making the credit transfer look legitimate

No it doesn't. That issue is already addressed by the change that doesn't show the seller name on the GTN, which brings us back to my earlier point that not allowing player autonomy in purchasing items brings no benefit. Even if we were to pretend seller names showed, forcing the lowest price item to be purchased only adds a slight inconvenience to credit sellers. Literally all they'd need to do is make sure the buyer lists an obscure item that is not for sale in any quantity beyond 1. Either way I would not be shocked if credit sellers either just stopped doing auction purchases for sales entirely, or if they require the sale to be done live so that the seller makes sure to buy the exact listing, in which case again, the lowest price forced purchase doesn't matter.

 

[Darkestmonty]

56 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

What you want to do and what you are or are not "insulted" by is not the only consideration. Many players as you have seen in this thread and in the several others about the GTN changes do not like the 1 credit undercutting. These players used to be able to buy the original/higher priced version to avoid patronizing sellers they felt to be doing a scummy practice. Now that autonomy is removed from them. It clearly makes a huge deal to these players, and I don't know why you are unable to empathize with them.

I actually am more in line with you and generally used to just buy the lowest priced item too, mostly because I just didn't pay attention to whether someone was undercutting or not. But the fact that you and I view it that way doesn't mean that needs to be imposed on everyone else - it does not benefit the wider player base to force people to buy the cheapest item and disallow player autonomy. Why take away the option/ability from people who really care about this when it benefits nobody other than the developers who get to cut a corner in coding the GTN?

No it doesn't. That issue is already addressed by the change that doesn't show the seller name on the GTN, which brings us back to my earlier point that not allowing player autonomy in purchasing items brings no benefit. Even if we were to pretend seller names showed, forcing the lowest price item to be purchased only adds a slight inconvenience to credit sellers. Literally all they'd need to do is make sure the buyer lists an obscure item that is not for sale in any quantity beyond 1. Either way I would not be shocked if credit sellers either just stopped doing auction purchases for sales entirely, or if they require the sale to be done live so that the seller makes sure to buy the exact listing, in which case again, the lowest price forced purchase doesn't matter.

 

People who work the GTN sell faster, people who buy from the GTN get cheaper prices. The only groups that are being upset are those who want to feel superior judging undercutting as a sin, scammers who were trying to sell player crafted dyes for 3 billion because of the buggy GTN, and players who were using the GTN to try and hide their real life credit purchases.

there is no reason to cater to any of the above groups.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[AFadedMemory]

1 hour ago, SoyElSenado said:

No it doesn't. That issue is already addressed by the change that doesn't show the seller name on the GTN, which brings us back to my earlier point that not allowing player autonomy in purchasing items brings no benefit. Even if we were to pretend seller names showed, forcing the lowest price item to be purchased only adds a slight inconvenience to credit sellers. Literally all they'd need to do is make sure the buyer lists an obscure item that is not for sale in any quantity beyond 1. Either way I would not be shocked if credit sellers either just stopped doing auction purchases for sales entirely, or if they require the sale to be done live so that the seller makes sure to buy the exact listing, in which case again, the lowest price forced purchase doesn't matter.

A person could theoretically by pass the name blocker by putting a code in the sale price. Example: Credit seller is selling 100,000,000. After they receive real world currency they tell the client to post a specific item for 100,005,741. Sure there is a risk that some other person copies the listing in hopes of getting "Free" credits but 1. if the item/code are regularly changed and the buyer is already at the GTN checking prices it's not that big a risk. 2. the poster was attempting to break the terms of service so they can't really go to BS if they didn't get the credits and the buyer has been paid real world money at that point.

BS can monitor the prices player are buying items and ban suspicious activity, but that takes time, and if they "Make a wrong" call it could cause bad PR

Easiest solution auto set system to sell lowest price first

Edited December 11, 2023 by AFadedMemory

[Darkestmonty]

34 minutes ago, AFadedMemory said:

A person could theoretically by pass the name blocker by putting a code in the sale price. Example: Credit seller is selling 100,000,000. After they receive real world currency they tell the client to post a specific item for 100,005,741. Sure there is a risk that some other person copies the listing in hopes of getting "Free" credits but 1. if the item/code are regularly changed and the buyer is already at the GTN checking prices it's not that big a risk. 2. the poster was attempting to break the terms of service so they can't really go to BS if they didn't get the credits and the buyer has been paid real world money at that point.

BS can monitor the prices player are buying items and ban suspicious activity, but that takes time, and if they "Make a wrong" call it could cause bad PR

Easiest solution auto set system to sell lowest price first

exactly. Lowest sold first fixes a few issues and simplifies the system. The only legitimate people it upsets are sellers who are angry they were undercut or buyers that see undercutting as a sin even though they are saving credits.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[AFadedMemory]

8 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

exactly. Lowest sold first fixes a few issues and the only people it upsets are sellers who are angry they were undercut or buyers that see undercutting as a sin even though they are saving credits.

Easiest solution does not equal best solution. It will take time to see if the issues it prevents are worse the the issues it causes.

Edited December 11, 2023 by AFadedMemory

[SoyElSenado]

40 minutes ago, AFadedMemory said:

Easiest solution auto set system to sell lowest price first

It isn't though. The easiest solution to that is the seller names being removed. Which, as you have correctly pointed out, can be defeated by the credit sellers having the buyer list a very specific item price. But then that goes to my previous point: the lowest possible price solution solves nothing because the credit sellers simply just tell the buyer to list an obscure item that is not for sale on the GTN. They can list the price for whatever they want because nobody else is buying it.

Again, I actually like the GTN changes except for this one thing. I don't agree with removing player autonomy for zero tangible benefit whatsoever. The SWTOR revamped GTN is effectively a carbon copy of WoW's AH revamp from 3 years ago minus  requiring players to purchase the cheapest items. It works completely fine in WoW and players are very happy with it because they have the autonomy to do what people here are asking for and select the price they want to pay for an item.

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

who want to feel superior judging undercutting as a sin

 

there is no reason to cater to any of the above groups.

I mean, you are in here belittling these guys and acting as the arbiter of whose opinions should and should not be ignored. If that isn't feeling superior and judging I'm not sure what is.

[Darkestmonty]

17 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

It isn't though. The easiest solution to that is the seller names being removed. Which, as you have correctly pointed out, can be defeated by the credit sellers having the buyer list a very specific item price. But then that goes to my previous point: the lowest possible price solution solves nothing because the credit sellers simply just tell the buyer to list an obscure item that is not for sale on the GTN. They can list the price for whatever they want because nobody else is buying it.

Again, I actually like the GTN changes except for this one thing. I don't agree with removing player autonomy for zero tangible benefit whatsoever. The SWTOR revamped GTN is effectively a carbon copy of WoW's AH revamp from 3 years ago minus  requiring players to purchase the cheapest items. It works completely fine in WoW and players are very happy with it because they have the autonomy to do what people here are asking for and select the price they want to pay for an item.

I mean, you are in here belittling these guys and acting as the arbiter of whose opinions should and should not be ignored. If that isn't feeling superior and judging I'm not sure what is.

"hey, I just bought 12 billion credits from your website, I posted 4 auctions of basic crafting supplement at 3,000,000,001 credits, can you buy those please."

They just bypassed the lack of names on auctions.

  

17 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

I mean, you are in here belittling these guys and acting as the arbiter of whose opinions should and should not be ignored. If that isn't feeling superior and judging I'm not sure what is.

because from a real life business perspective, developer time, money spent, etc, a more complicated system which opens up exploits is pointless.

Right now the system is simple. Lowest priced sells first. Allowing people to buy higher priced items opens up exploits and possible scams. This is the real reason I believe a lot of "undercutting is a sin" people are against the new system, it stops them from exploiting loopholes in the old GTN.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[AFadedMemory]

56 minutes ago, SoyElSenado said:

It isn't though. The easiest solution to that is the seller names being removed. Which, as you have correctly pointed out, can be defeated by the credit sellers having the buyer list a very specific item price. But then that goes to my previous point: the lowest possible price solution solves nothing because the credit sellers simply just tell the buyer to list an obscure item that is not for sale on the GTN. They can list the price for whatever they want because nobody else is buying it.

Adaptability is great ha ha ha!

I'm not well versed in the subject but I heard that some items have lost the ability to be sold in the GTN is this possibly a reason? Either way I would still argue that force cheap sell is a stronger deterrent then just no name.  It puts greater strain on both the credit buyer and the credit seller. The seller now has to find an obscure item that is easily obtainable, probably multiple items to avoid being undercut and people camping on the gtn to get free credits. The buyer now has to trust someone breaking ToS, obtain some obscure object, and hope someone doesn't undercut or copy their listing.

Edited December 11, 2023 by AFadedMemory

[DeannaVoyager]

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

"hey, I just bought 12 billion credits from your website, I posted 4 auctions of basic crafting supplement at 3,000,000,001 credits, can you buy those please."

They just bypassed the lack of names on auctions.

  

because from a real life business perspective, developer time, money spent, etc, a more complicated system which opens up exploits is pointless.

Right now the system is simple. Lowest priced sells first. Allowing people to buy higher priced items opens up exploits and possible scams. This is the real reason I believe a lot of "undercutting is a sin" people are against the new system, it stops them from exploiting loopholes in the old GTN.

You seem to know a lot about credit selling and exploiting loopholes... Just saying.

[arunav]

On 12/8/2023 at 2:28 PM, TrixxieTriss said:

I have decided to stop crafting & selling dyes until they address this travesty of a system. I’m sure I won’t be the last. This will ultimately be bad for buyers as more & more sellers drop out, there will be less choice & less competition. Eventually prices will go up way more than they ever were before. Broadsword you’ve been warned this is likely to happen. The blame will fully be yours if you ignore player feedback!

There's a decent-enough chance BS doesn't really care. The new GTN is less friendly to sell on generally. If fewer and fewer crafted dyes are available, players will either have to make crafting characters, level them, get mats, and make their own... OR buy one of the CM dyes. Did I mention these new shiny ones that cost more than any dye from the past 10 years?

Also, they happened to take away all leveling greens, blues, and other random stat cosmetic items from the GTN, preventing their posting and effectively removing them from the game. 

I think we're just starting to get a taste of how much more the CM will be emphasized going forward.

Edited December 11, 2023 by arunav

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, DeannaVoyager said:

You seem to know a lot about credit selling and exploiting loopholes... Just saying.

knowledge is a sin... just saying.

  

9 minutes ago, arunav said:

There's a decent-enough chance BS doesn't really care. The new GTN is less friendly to sell on generally. If fewer and fewer crafted dyes are available, players will either have to make crafting characters, level them, get mats, and make their own... OR buy one of the CM dyes. Did I mention these new shiny ones?

And I think we're just starting to get a taste of how much more the CM will be emphasized going forward.

there is a gluttony of every player crafted dye available. The new GTN layout makes it easier to sell.

With this I can see 10 different dyes on one page, I can see their lowest price and immediately tell which ones I should try to sell.

with the old GTN I would have to do one of two things:

• search every dye individually then adjust GTN prices from Low to High to see the current price of that dye.
• type in 'dye' and page through about 150 pages of duplicate dyes trying to determine which ones specifically had higher base prices to post

Every item type now works like this. I don't have constantly arrange the GTN from lowest to highest to see how much I should charge for the item I want to sell.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[GuigeekRhadamant]

You mean that thing?

How about making it even LESS clear?

Edited December 11, 2023 by GuigeekRhadamant

[arunav]

Just now, GuigeekRhadamant said:

You mean that thing?

How about making it even LESS clear?

Not sure what you find unclear about it. 

It lists all the relevant information, and even has a sales history to know if you're buying at a reasonable price. 

This actually is an improvement from the old GTN. 

[Anhkriva]

1 minute ago, GuigeekRhadamant said:

You mean that thing?

How about making it even LESS clear?

This is very clear. We clearly have details of how many pieces we have available at what price.

[GuigeekRhadamant]

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

If you click an item on the GTN, a box pops up showing you the next 20 listings and how much are available in each listing at a specific price.

The more you know...

 

Edit : oh no, ok, you're talking about the screenshot I guess: that, I knew

Edited December 11, 2023 by GuigeekRhadamant

[Spikanor]

30 minutes ago, arunav said:

If fewer and fewer crafted dyes are available, players will either have to make crafting characters, level them, get mats, and make their own...

you miss something with it.

remember not all the dye colours there are you can buy from the artifact craft vendor he.

there are some dye schematic's you need to earn by putting effort in to it first since there are bound to the reputation track also and since you need to have the legand rank for it to buy then i see some of then not going to put effort in to it since it can take some month's before you reach legand rank by some reputation tracks so that means dye's like that will no get sold and putting effort to get the crafting schematic is something i not see people do at all anymore.

so if in this case @TrixxieTriss has a lot of the dye's schematic's from the legend rank from the daily missions and daily planets and that was also his market then the buyers are screwt more then him since there not wane put effort in to run that contant to become legend rank with the reputation and spent month's on it to reach it for the dye schematic only.

36 minutes ago, arunav said:

I think we're just starting to get a taste of how much more the CM will be emphasized going forward.

but that can also go back fire to then he if there are less craft items to be sold on the GTN and more CM then people are also can leave the game for good and thats hurting the population and there reputation even more and its also become's closer to shut down the game it self.

[Darkestmonty]

1 minute ago, Spikanor said:

you miss something with it.

remember not all the dye colours there are you can buy from the artifact craft vendor he.

there are some dye schematic's you need to earn by putting effort in to it first since there are bound to the reputation track also and since you need to have the legand rank for it to buy then i see some of then not going to put effort in to it since it can take some month's before you reach legand rank by some reputation tracks so that means dye's like that will no get sold and putting effort to get the crafting schematic is something i not see people do at all anymore.

so if in this case @TrixxieTriss has a lot of the dye's schematic's from the legend rank from the daily missions and daily planets and that was also his market then the buyers are screwt more then him since there not wane put effort in to run that contant to become legend rank with the reputation and spent month's on it to reach it for the dye schematic only.

but that can also go back fire to then he if there are less craft items to be sold on the GTN and more CM then people are also can leave the game for good and thats hurting the population and there reputation even more and its also become's closer to shut down the game it self.

or the sellers that also have the reputation based dyes can step in and sell. At least on Star Forge every player crafted dye can be found on the GTN 24/7.

[TrixxieTriss]

36 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

If you click an item on the GTN, a box pops up showing you the next 20 listings and how much are available in each listing at a specific price.

But you still cant buy them. You can only buy the cheapest one. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Darkestmonty]

3 minutes ago, TrixxieTriss said:

But you still can buy them. You can only buy the cheapest one. 

and?

I don't see undercutting as a sin. I'm not going to stand there expounding on the virtues of posting the highest price so those that posted before me sell first.

I'm going to buy the cheapest one.

What's your limit for undercutting before it becomes a moral sin? 1 credit, 2 credits, 100, 1000, 100,000, 100,000,000?

Edited December 11, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Spikanor]

2 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

or the sellers that also have the reputation based dyes can step in and sell. At least on Star Forge every player crafted dye can be found on the GTN 24/7.

but then we go back he what i told trixxietriss about it all so its still going to become a problem in the end if you craft dye's or weapons or armors in the end there both share the same problem.