Coming 7.4 GTN changes on the PTS

[Darkestmonty]

22 minutes ago, OlBuzzard said:

@Darkestmonty ..  Yeah I kind of knew that!  Part of what I posted was somewhat rhetorical (sorry ... totally my bad.  I should have said something about it).  BUT ... again you are quite correct.  

BTW... thanks again for the screen shots.  I'm quite certain it will benefit a lot of other folks.  The QOL stuff is the best thing IF it functional  (and it seems to be).  

The debate over who get stuck with the processing bill will more than likely never get resolved.  IMO many of the upcoming changes are probably beneficial.  (Although there might be a couple I would personally change).  I'm not on the team so that is not for me to decide.

BTW...  (my last time I'll bring this up since very few will like it) ... Heavy taxation being paid by those who are buying ASSUMES that EVERYONE who IS buying (expensive items) is a whale and NEEDS to be taxed.  (NOT GOOD) !!

I appreciate your post by the way!

I don't see the devs changing anything about taxes or posting fees.

I'm just hoping some UI changes are made, they ditch the Buy limit and swap it to an option to increase Favorites instead.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Darev]

On 10/28/2023 at 5:14 AM, Spikanor said:

who tells you there need to pay big money for it.

like in any MMO you play for the first time you have that type of problems that you cant buy a lot of things at the same time that also counts for skills.

so what is the basic 101 lesson you learn is how to make money in the game.

that means you look for stuff that you can sell.

this game drops a lot of grey crap stuff so thats all something there can sell.

same go's for armor piece's and weapon drops there can sell.

and when there learn crew skill's there can sell craft materials on the GTN to other players.

thats all things there learn from the start and what you learn in any new MMO game you play.

and not forget the story line missions /  planet story missions and side missions there can compleet also.

Do you remember, a few months ago, I made a new toon and posted in the forum the amount of credits I earned, in game, from just doing missions?  It was to point out that players new to the game, rolling their first toon, aren't exactly rolling in credits.

My results were as a subscriber.

F2P players would be worse off.

Without looking up the thread, I think I stopped around level 50, after doing at least 4-6 planet's worth of class story.

it was like 1.2 million or something.

I didn't buy anything.

I didn't use quick travel.

I didn't buy gear.

Please don't pretend  that for a first time player there's enough credits going around to even keep up with gear on a planet by planet basis.

 

If you want to go through and do the experiment yourself to try to prove me wrong, please do so and report your results like I did.

[Darev]

Today is the first day I downloaded PTS and of course it's offline right now.

Today is also the first time I'm looking at this thread.

I understand the changes to the listing fees.    Whatever.   That doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.

 

What I don't like is this "buyer pays the tax" thing I'm seeing people post about.

So if I, as a buyer of items on the GTN, see something listed for a million credits, I'm charged a tax on top of it?

So the price I see isn't what's coming out of my toon's "pocket?"  (that's too much like real life)

I don't understand the reasoning for this change.  At all.

Raise lower the tax rate of the item.   Ok.  again, I understand that.

But changing how it works?  I don't understand and, at least to me, it seems completely uneccesary.

 

[Darkestmonty]

14 minutes ago, Darev said:

Do you remember, a few months ago, I made a new toon and posted in the forum the amount of credits I earned, in game, from just doing missions?  It was to point out that players new to the game, rolling their first toon, aren't exactly rolling in credits.

My results were as a subscriber.

F2P players would be worse off.

Without looking up the thread, I think I stopped around level 50, after doing at least 4-6 planet's worth of class story.

it was like 1.2 million or something.

I didn't buy anything.

I didn't use quick travel.

I didn't buy gear.

Please don't pretend  that for a first time player there's enough credits going around to even keep up with gear on a planet by planet basis.

 

If you want to go through and do the experiment yourself to try to prove me wrong, please do so and report your results like I did.

1.2 million on release 2011/2012 would have been a lot of credits even at level 50.

But if you want credits to match current levels of inflation in any MMO, you have to take part in the player economy buying and selling items.

over a decade after release, a player will never farm enough credits from PvE only content to equal todays inflation levels.

  

5 minutes ago, Darev said:

What I don't like is this "buyer pays the tax" thing I'm seeing people post about.

So if I, as a buyer of items on the GTN, see something listed for a million credits, I'm charged a tax on top of it?

So the price I see isn't what's coming out of my toon's "pocket?"  (that's too much like real life)

I don't understand the reasoning for this change.  At all.

Raise lower the tax rate of the item.   Ok.  again, I understand that.

But changing how it works?  I don't understand and, at least to me, it seems completely uneccesary.

 

Buyer tax can be up to 14.95% and everyone seeing that let out a "what the f...". nearly 15% for higher cost auctions seems a bit too high.

Seems like the devs are relying on the GTN too much when it comes to being the games primary credit sink.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Spikanor]

2 hours ago, Darev said:

Do you remember, a few months ago, I made a new toon and posted in the forum the amount of credits I earned, in game, from just doing missions?  It was to point out that players new to the game, rolling their first toon, aren't exactly rolling in credits.

My results were as a subscriber.

F2P players would be worse off.

Without looking up the thread, I think I stopped around level 50, after doing at least 4-6 planet's worth of class story.

it was like 1.2 million or something.

I didn't buy anything.

I didn't use quick travel.

I didn't buy gear.

Please don't pretend  that for a first time player there's enough credits going around to even keep up with gear on a planet by planet basis.

 

If you want to go through and do the experiment yourself to try to prove me wrong, please do so and report your results like I did.

let me tell you this.

back in the old day's before there turn on the credit booster you need to sell stuff on the GTN to earn credits to buy skills and medic packs a lot and also gear from the vendors or buy mods from other players since you need then hard for your story line missions. ( yea medic packs you need to buy since there was no companion you get at the starting level that has the heal option that was for most class in chapter 2 there get the one.)

it was also back then you need to run a lot of side missions for the exp and credits.

now is it compleet easyer since you not have to buy skills anymore, you can set your first companion on heal mode, and the enemy's are super easyer also then there are back then and can compleet most of the story in crap gear what you get from drops or rewards.

and there have boost the credit rewards also on a lot of points still. ( i still not know why the credit booster is still on when we have a inflation problem at all)

that means also you not spent credits anymore on skill's or medic pack's anymore and mod's to upgrade your armor with since the missions have become weaker.

in other MMO's you need to work on your gear from the start more since you cant compleet most of the missions with weak crap gear.

there you pay for skills and not get then for free.

there you need to buy potions since without then you get trouble's with you skills more since there use mana and you need a lot of mana potions at the start.

also on the side note what you forget also:

a F2P player in this game has always the worst luck in this game since there have the most restrictions you can think about and also the worst one's there are.

thats why this game gets less new players since there threat the new players that not wane pay with real money for a game there not know like crap.

edit: i can make more then 1 mill credits a day if i wane by only using 2 crew skills and sending only 2 companions on crew skill missions to earn a lot of credits from it.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Spikanor

[TrixxieTriss]

7 hours ago, Darev said:

Today is the first day I downloaded PTS and of course it's offline right now.

Today is also the first time I'm looking at this thread.

I understand the changes to the listing fees.    Whatever.   That doesn't really matter in the scheme of things.

 

What I don't like is this "buyer pays the tax" thing I'm seeing people post about.

So if I, as a buyer of items on the GTN, see something listed for a million credits, I'm charged a tax on top of it?

So the price I see isn't what's coming out of my toon's "pocket?"  (that's too much like real life)

I don't understand the reasoning for this change.  At all.

Raise lower the tax rate of the item.   Ok.  again, I understand that.

But changing how it works?  I don't understand and, at least to me, it seems completely uneccesary.

 

The buyer won’t see the tax separately & it won’t be added on top after the sale. 
All the buyer will see is the final price including the tax. 
But if you’re the seller & you want to list for 1 million credits, you’ll have work out the tax that will be added on top first & reduce your price so it shows 1 million.

And I’m with you on this, the change in the system to make the buyer pay it & not the seller is totally unnecessary. Because it’s change for the sake of change & has absolutely no beneficial purpose for doing it. All it will do is confuse people & make it harder for sellers to work out the prices & rounding  it out to a nice neat number. 

They could have kept it as it was & had the tax come from the seller as it is now. Less work load for them to do, which means it costs the Broadsword less. 

The only changes they needed to make was adding the proposed listing fee amounts to the deposit system. Anyone cancelling would have lost the deposit fees & any items that don’t sell because they time out would be refunded. This unrefundable fee system for unsold items is going to negatively affect the market & hence the game.

Then all they needed to do is add the progressive tax system into the UI to show sellers how much tax they’d be paying on a sale in the different tax brackets.

It would have been half the work load, it wouldn’t piss players off or confuse them. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

10 hours ago, Darev said:

What I don't like is this "buyer pays the tax" thing I'm seeing people post about.

So if I, as a buyer of items on the GTN, see something listed for a million credits, I'm charged a tax on top of it?

So the price I see isn't what's coming out of my toon's "pocket?"  (that's too much like real life)

I don't understand the reasoning for this change.  At all.

Raise lower the tax rate of the item.   Ok.  again, I understand that.

But changing how it works?  I don't understand and, at least to me, it seems completely uneccesary.

 

 

It doesn't actually work this way, so, from the buyer's perspective, nothing changes in terms of the tax. In both the current system and 7.4's system, the tax comes out in the middle, after you pay and before the seller gets the credits. As a buyer, the price you see is the price you pay in both systems. So from the perspective of who pays the tax, that hasn't changed. If the buyer pays it now, then they always paid it.

 

That's why there's been pushback in this thread on the "buyer pays the tax" comments. If you look at the thread the developers posted for the GTN changes, they didn't even mention the "buyer's fee" in the "Buying" section at all, it's listed in the "Selling" section with the other changes for sellers, because sellers are the ones that actually have to care about it and account for it when pricing.

[DeannaVoyager]

22 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

What do you define as a "credit seller"?

What criteria do you use to call out certain sellers as "credit sellers" by name?

I'm being serious, please tell me what makes certain GTN users obvious "credit sellers".

Credit seller = someone who makes credits inside game and sells them outside of the game for real money. A lot of sale runners do this, but so do people who use their game time for crafting augments and playing the GTN. 

I am not calling out anyone by name. I follow the GTN. When you see same person listing pages of high value items from a never ending supply, this is what you call "flooding the GTN", when it happens month after month, sometimes years, it's not difficult to conclude they should be maxxed on credits several times already - unless they sell their credits to make room for more. Seller anonymity will protect them from being discovered in the future. And when buyers are forced to buy the cheapest item instead of letting us choose the seller, they will be untouchable. They will be rewarded for this kind of behaviour and the casual seller who only wants to sell 1-2 items will end up selling nothing. So your ranting about non-refundable fees is pretty insignificant with this problem. You just don't see it yet.

 

Devs, let us see the seller name and choose the seller we want to buy from. I don't want to give my credits to people who are exploiting the game.

 

[Spikanor]

40 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

Devs, let us see the seller name and choose the seller we want to buy from. I don't want to give my credits to people who are exploiting the game.

here is maybe a idea.

can the devs not do something with the account from the person what is doing that since there can look where the credits go and if it go's to a place there not know about and its not something in the game then there can take action to that account?

[Darkestmonty]

5 hours ago, Spikanor said:

here is maybe a idea.

can the devs not do something with the account from the person what is doing that since there can look where the credits go and if it go's to a place there not know about and its not something in the game then there can take action to that account?

I agree with you, that's a devs responsibility not a players. Here is why I asked how to spot these credit sellers, I've been accused of being a credit seller because I sell "high valued items month after month".

I've been accused of being a credit seller just for selling stacks of 20,000 of reagents,  datacrons, hypercrates, and name changes constantly.

I personally do not have to buy directly from the CM since I have years of stock saved up from trading, but some players will spend hundreds on the CM so they can turn around and quickly sell their purchases on the gtn.

There are credit sellers on the GTN, but players can not spot the difference between a credit seller selling CM items and whales who spend hundreds a month doing the same thing to earn credits on the GTN.

Personally I love the fact that we can only buy the cheapest items on the GTN. It stops people from exploiting 3 billion credit player made dyes or other junk items and saves me a click by arranging by price (which doesn't always work the first time).

I always buy the cheapest so I don't care if names are shown or not, but limiting players to only buying the cheapest sale does stop at least one exploit.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[OlBuzzard]

** Why are credit sellers even in the game? (they should be banned).
** Name calling like Whales is nothing more than an attempt to belittle someone because of .. WHY?  
** People who know how to make money (credits) are always hated.
** Taxation on sales is a ridiculous way to solve any issue.  Stop the inflated influx of credits at the source and the problem will eventually be solved.  It didn't happen overnight, and it WON'T be solved overnight either.  Taxing higher cost items applies to everyone who is purchasing (so even those who have very little to begin with have the more expensive items pushed even further out of reach).  Remember the transaction is being taxed (Not based on the size of the persons stack of credits on hand).
** The nonrefundable fee makes sense (time lapsed non-sold items will auto refund... )  This is one time that @TrixxieTriss is simply wrong. 
** Items being sold should ALWAYS list the seller ... period! 'Nuf said!!!

IN the end ... just clean up the UI (pretty much as @Darkestmonty is suggesting) and that will be a good place to START.  IMO this entire overhaul will need to be redone a bit in the future anyhow.  It should be noted that there are always a few changes that need to be done.  It should also be noted that very little changes to the newer UI stuff has been done since it was released.

Edited November 3, 2023 by OlBuzzard

[DeannaVoyager]

2 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

There are credit sellers on the GTN, but players can not spot the difference between a credit seller selling CM items and whales who spend hundreds a month doing the same thing to earn credits on the GTN.

Speak for yourself. Just because you can't spot a difference doesn't mean it can't be spotted by someone less blind. 

 

2 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

Personally I love the fact that we can only buy the cheapest items on the GTN. It stops people from exploiting 3 billion credit player made dyes or other junk items and saves me a click by arranging by price (which doesn't always work the first time).

So you don't like free market, because you don't want to read the item description and think for yourself if the item is worth the prices it's listed for? If someone buys a dye for 3 billion it's their own fault, and I bet they never make the same mistake again. But you don't force everyone to buy at certain price from certain seller and justify it by protection against stupidy. It sounds like North Korea to me. But hey, you want to keep supporting exploiters after 7.4? feel free. And by the looks of it I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that you are one of those people who benefit for the forced sales. That's why you want anonymity protection for exploiters so badly.

 

7 hours ago, Spikanor said:

here is maybe a idea.

can the devs not do something with the account from the person what is doing that since there can look where the credits go and if it go's to a place there not know about and its not something in the game then there can take action to that account?

 

They've done it in the past, and some of them have been banned. But they can't have eyes everywhere, and what better way to catch suspicious activity than waiting for players to report those accounts. If we can't see the seller names again, we can't report them. If we can't report them, we won't be able to get the dev's attention on them either.

[Spikanor]

30 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

They've done it in the past, and some of them have been banned. But they can't have eyes everywhere, and what better way to catch suspicious activity than waiting for players to report those accounts. If we can't see the seller names again, we can't report them. If we can't report them, we won't be able to get the dev's attention on them either.

 

like the devs can stop the credit sellers for good its more a cat and mouse game there playing.

you know that there are privet groups on facebook and discort where players sell and buy credits with real money since thats how it go's in the other MMO's and there cant stopt then also.

i give no damm about the credit sellers at all since i wane see there focus on other things what is more importent for the game then something like this.

if there wane remove the sellers name from the GTN then let then do it for some reason there think its good.

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

** The nonrefundable fee makes sense (time lapsed non-sold items will auto refund... )  This is one time that @TrixxieTriss is simply wrong. 

Please explain this statement, as thats not what I actually said. Because under the proposed system on the PTS, time lapsed non-sold items do not auto refund. Once you list at item, you pay the fee & you never get it back. It doesn’t matter if it sells or not. If you don’t believe me, then try it on the PTS & you will see. 

Edited November 3, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Nee-Elder]

Instead of the same 5 people  bickering with eachother for the ummteenth  time,  some of you ( and everyone else ) might enjoy this NEW  info post from  one of the actual decision makers  --> https://forums.swtor.com/topic/931783-74-gtn-preview-live-on-pts/?do=findComment&comment=9784332

[Darev]

2 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Please explain this statement, as thats not what I actually said. Because under the proposed system on the PTS, time lapsed non-sold items do not auto refund. Once you list at item, you pay the fee & you never get it back. It doesn’t matter if it sells or not. If you don’t believe me, then try it on the PTS & you will see. 

Another change I'm not terribly fond of.

I understand that it's a "listing" fee, or even (another word for it) a "GTN USAGE/ACCESS FEE" but all that's potentially going to do, for me as a seller, is to stop selling "little" things.

I can make / list Grade two PVE space parts (as an example) and list them.  Maybe 5 of each.  I re-list them over and over until they sell, no matter how long it takes.  When they sell, I make more.  

Now, with this change, if they don't sell after a couple of re-lists, the fees are approaching what I sell them for?

(I don't know what the actual fee % is, I'm just pointing out I don't like the concept).

So for "little stuff" if it doesn't sell fast enough it isn't worth crafting/selling?

That's what I'm seeing out of this change.

[Darkestmonty]

4 minutes ago, Darev said:

Another change I'm not terribly fond of.

I understand that it's a "listing" fee, or even (another word for it) a "GTN USAGE/ACCESS FEE" but all that's potentially going to do, for me as a seller, is to stop selling "little" things.

I can make / list Grade two PVE space parts (as an example) and list them.  Maybe 5 of each.  I re-list them over and over until they sell, no matter how long it takes.  When they sell, I make more.  

Now, with this change, if they don't sell after a couple of re-lists, the fees are approaching what I sell them for?

(I don't know what the actual fee % is, I'm just pointing out I don't like the concept).

So for "little stuff" if it doesn't sell fast enough it isn't worth crafting/selling?

That's what I'm seeing out of this change.

this is where "buy orders" become useful when they are added. Lesser desired items will have buy orders filled instead of people randomly placing auctions up which may not sell for weeks.

[OlBuzzard]

3 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Please explain this statement, as thats not what I actually said. Because under the proposed system on the PTS, time lapsed non-sold items do not auto refund. Once you list at item, you pay the fee & you never get it back. It doesn’t matter if it sells or not. If you don’t believe me, then try it on the PTS & you will see. 

If there is NOT an auto refund on items that don't sell that IS a BIG MISTAKE!  (I'm glad you pointed that out! Which is ALSO why I brought it up in the first place.)  NON-refundable should only apply on sales that are COMPLETED or on perhaps on canceled orders (usually done when there is a lot of undercutting pricing going on).  If an item is posted ... left and is not sold (time lapses) then there should definitely be a refund since there was no transaction that took place.

That being said:  I honestly don't see that many changes being made on what is currently on the PTS.  The team isn't concerned about philosophical debate.  (And I can understand that).  What I AM concerned with is easy to use and accessibility of the GTN to the player base.  The new format will take some getting use to.  But, it does not seem to be overwhelmingly difficult.

It should also be noted that @Darev brings some interesting points to the table as well.

BTW...  I'm never upset with folks asking me questions (as long as they are willing to be civil and listen to the answers).  At the end of the day we may still disagree ... BUT we can all bring SOLID input to the table if we can just stop, listen, learn and pay attention!

😉

[Darcmoon]

3 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

this is where "buy orders" become useful when they are added. Lesser desired items will have buy orders filled instead of people randomly placing auctions up which may not sell for weeks.

And how long before they add in the ‘buy orders’?  7.3 had was the update where the new taxes were added.  That went live on June 13. While we don’t know exactly when 7.4 will drop we can say there will be about a 6 month difference between the two updates.  I don’t see them adding the ‘buy orders’ any time soon.  How many people will give up on the GTN and selling items that aren’t guaranteed sells in that time?  
 

2 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

If there is NOT an auto refund on items that don't sell that IS a BIG MISTAKE!  (I'm glad you pointed that out! Which is ALSO why I brought it up in the first place.)  NON-refundable should only apply on sales that are COMPLETED or on perhaps on canceled orders (usually done when there is a lot of undercutting pricing going on).  If an item is posted ... left and is not sold (time lapses) then there should definitely be a refund since there was no transaction that took place.

That being said:  I honestly don't see that many changes being made on what is currently on the PTS.  The team isn't concerned about philosophical debate.  (And I can understand that).  What I AM concerned with is easy to use and accessibility of the GTN to the player base.  The new format will take some getting use to.  But, it does not seem to be overwhelmingly difficult.

It should also be noted that @Darev brings some interesting points to the table as well.

BTW...  I'm never upset with folks asking me questions (as long as they are willing to be civil and listen to the answers).  At the end of the day we may still disagree ... BUT we can all bring SOLID input to the table if we can just stop, listen, learn and pay attention!

😉

There isn’t an auto refund unfortunately.  The fee is paid just to post the item and you don’t get it back. I agree the way you said it should work is the better way. I also have very little faith they will make changes to it at this point. I’d say none but the did change the stronghold fees after people complained so I’m hopeful but fully prepared to be disappointed. 

[OlBuzzard]

2 hours ago, Darcmoon said:

And how long before they add in the ‘buy orders’?  7.3 had was the update where the new taxes were added.  That went live on June 13. While we don’t know exactly when 7.4 will drop we can say there will be about a 6 month difference between the two updates.  I don’t see them adding the ‘buy orders’ any time soon.  How many people will give up on the GTN and selling items that aren’t guaranteed sells in that time?  
 

There isn’t an auto refund unfortunately.  The fee is paid just to post the item and you don’t get it back. I agree the way you said it should work is the better way. I also have very little faith they will make changes to it at this point. I’d say none but the did change the stronghold fees after people complained so I’m hopeful but fully prepared to be disappointed. 

Quite correct on both points.  I'm quite certain that some of the points that I've made seem a bit curious (at best).  However, please consider the following:

** The past experiences of the PTS.
** Solid input / feedback from a host of others (also in the past).
** The importance of what has been said (in the past PTS feedback) AND particularly today.  A LOT of what has been said here and in the PTS section are ALL valid points (from a certain point of view).  
** Non-refundable deposits (someone should REALLY pay attention to this one)
** Ease of the use and intuitive accessibility of the new UI.

Any NUMBER of valid points could be added to this list.

In the end...  (as you have pointed out) just HOW MUCH can we legitimately expect to find its way into the proposed new system?  I'm not trying to start or finish anything with the development team.  Frankly, I'd much rather prefer to be on a more friendly basis.  Yet the simple fact is this ridiculous wall that frequently stands between gamer and developer, and all too often seems to define the legitimacy of any feedback regardless of how well intended or researched.

BTW... I want to thank both @TrixxieTriss and @Darkestmonty for their patience in putting up with my somewhat odd means of bringing a couple of those valid points out into the open for discussion. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by OlBuzzard
typo

[Darkestmonty]

3 hours ago, Darcmoon said:

And how long before they add in the ‘buy orders’?  7.3 had was the update where the new taxes were added.  That went live on June 13. While we don’t know exactly when 7.4 will drop we can say there will be about a 6 month difference between the two updates.  I don’t see them adding the ‘buy orders’ any time soon.  How many people will give up on the GTN and selling items that aren’t guaranteed sells in that time?  
 

There isn’t an auto refund unfortunately.  The fee is paid just to post the item and you don’t get it back. I agree the way you said it should work is the better way. I also have very little faith they will make changes to it at this point. I’d say none but the did change the stronghold fees after people complained so I’m hopeful but fully prepared to be disappointed. 

You are still panicking about non-refundable posting fees.

You can post an item for literal years without selling before you lose more credits than if you sold now with an 8% GTN tax.

Most buyers do not know the prices of items from week to week. Most sellers aren't much better and I only know 2 sellers out of a whole discord server that even tracks their sales. When 7.4 drops you won't have to compensate for sellers paying taxes, the only thing you will have to compensate for are other sellers undercutting you.

The time between 7.4 and when buy orders goes live is every sellers grace period. You can take advantage of that or fret about losing .008% of your profit compared to the current 8%.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[TrixxieTriss]

4 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

If there is NOT an auto refund on items that don't sell that IS a BIG MISTAKE!  (I'm glad you pointed that out! Which is ALSO why I brought it up in the first place.)  NON-refundable should only apply on sales that are COMPLETED or on perhaps on canceled orders (usually done when there is a lot of undercutting pricing going on).  If an item is posted ... left and is not sold (time lapses) then there should definitely be a refund since there was no transaction that took place.

Ok, thanks for codifying your position on this, which is by the way, exactly the same as mine. So I’m wondering which part of my statement you think that I’m simply wrong?

Edited November 4, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Darcmoon]

1 hour ago, Darkestmonty said:

You are still panicking about non-refundable posting fees.

You can post an item for literal years without selling before you lose more credits than if you sold now with an 8% GTN tax.

Most buyers do not know the prices of items from week to week. Most sellers aren't much better and I only know 2 sellers out of a whole discord server that even tracks their sales. When 7.4 drops you won't have to compensate for sellers paying taxes, the only thing you will have to compensate for are other sellers undercutting you.

The time between 7.4 and when buy orders goes live is every sellers grace period. You can take advantage of that or fret about losing .008% of your profit compared to the current 8%.

I'm not panicking.  I utterly dislike the changes to fees.  You are dismissing anyone who disagrees with you.  You seem to think that repeating over and over again about the difference between the 8% tax and the fees will change how people feel about it.  It may change some peoples minds but others it will not.  Its obvious to me I won't change your mind which is fine.  You aren't changing my mind either.  

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, Darcmoon said:

I'm not panicking.  I utterly dislike the changes to fees.  You are dismissing anyone who disagrees with you.  You seem to think that repeating over and over again about the difference between the 8% tax and the fees will change how people feel about it.  It may change some peoples minds but others it will not.  Its obvious to me I won't change your mind which is fine.  You aren't changing my mind either.  

you dislike the fees because you don't understand the math.

Lose 10,000 to 250,000 credits on a 3,000,000,000 credit sale in 7.4 or lose 240,000,000 credits if you sold now with the 8% GTN tax.

Even if you failed to sell that 3,000,000,000 credit item a few times, it would take you 18 years of continuous posting before you lost more credits than selling with the 8% GTN tax we currently have.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[The-Kaitou-Kid]

7 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

you dislike the fees because you don't understand the math.

Pay 10,000 to 250,000 credits on a 3,000,000,000 credit sale in 7.4 or lose 240,000,000 credits if you sold now with the 8% GTN tax.

Even if you failed to sell that 3,000,000,000 item a few times, it would take you 18 years of continuously posting that item before you lost more credits than selling with the 8% GTN tax we currently have.

 

Again, to be clear, the tax is coming out in the same place in both systems. You can keep repeating this math all you want, make the calculation for 50 years, whatever, it doesn't apply here. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of one of the two systems if you think it does.

 

The tax is still there, taken out in the same way, and sellers are the only ones that have to pay attention to it. Sure, sellers can factor it into their pricing, but they can do that in today's system by increasing their prices by 8%. That doesn't happen for most items, though, because the market will determine the prices.  That, as it's already been pointed out, will then force sellers to account for the current lowest buyout price when listing. So your unit price becomes the post-GTN commission credits in the 7.0 system. It's the same.