Seasons was one of the worst things to happen to PVP

[Jettsett]

I've never seen people less willing to PVP. Every single day I expect to see people randomly /stuck rather than fight back when somebody attacks them. You try to fight people and they throw a grenade and run away from you without even attacking you once, unless they happen to be joined by another teammate mid run, but even then that's not a guarantee. You see people huddling in spawn or at a single node rather than fight one or two people away from it because they don't want to risk dying. These people then proceed to get angry or call you toxic if you keep trying to fight them when they choose to do nothing back. They wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the fact they want rewards for nothing, and I'm certain that less people would've left the game if they didn't have to play with people who act like this. It's not fun to be with or against them.

If seasons are here to stay, I feel like there should be at least some kind of requirement to get rewards that go past just showing up and AFKing at a node or playing a certain amount of games. It should be tied to actually doing protection, healing or DPS. It doesn't have to be high, but people are quite literally refusing to fight. It's ridiculous.

[Lord_Malganus]

Pvp is a sad joke.

[krackcommando]

iunno. i’d /stuck like that all the time if i knew how salty it would make you. or at least stop hoarding my nades. 🤔

never understood the try hardery of throwing nades in regs… other than maybe cybertechs who want to make the game more grindy/expensive. 

 

[Lord_Malganus]

Those players know the game is designed to not have to actually play to get "stuff" like Cosmetic rewards and tech frags.

Seasons give those that actually play Pvp fish in a barrel to rack up kills and wins.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Lord_Malganus

[Darkestmonty]

my biggest issue with PvP is /kick was removed.

/kick could not be spammed

/kick could be canceled by healing a team mate, damaging an enemy, or gaining attacker/defender points

/kick needed at least 50% of the team to vote to kick the player

With all those protections and ways to cancel the /kick vote by playing the game, the only people who were ever kicked were those that were AFK.

 

With out that option, we now have a steady stream of players hiding in corners the instant the game looks like a loss to leach free points for the dailies, weeklies, and PvP season. It's even an issue in Arena when your team mate refuses to drop stealth and fight because they don't think the match making is fair so they sit there in stealth until the timer runs out.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[krackcommando]

13 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

my biggest issue with PvP is /kick was removed.

/kick could not be spammed

/kick could be canceled by healing a team mate, damaging an enemy, or gaining attacker/defender points

/kick needed at least 50% of the team to vote to kick the player

With all those protections and ways to cancel the /kick vote by playing the game, the only people who were ever kicked were those that were AFK.

 

With out that option, we now have a steady stream of players doing absolutely nothing to finish the dailies, weeklies, and PvP season.

that only requires 2 o 3 in arenas, and it got abused to high heaven by kicking ppl who were already dead so they could not fight.

it also isn't solving anything in wzs except an actual afk or stuck person. aaand how do you distinguish from the guy afking at a node from the guy guarding? suppose 4 ppl just wanna troll the guy guarding or they're upset with him for w/e reason. he just sucks? /kick? no dude. /kick was abused 3x for every time it actually worked. and the most egregious offenders (in 8m always) are not dumb enough to sit there. they just walk into combat. respawn. go back to their corner and troll.

edit: also, y'all know the dude created a brand new account to seed this *cough* discussion the same day it was posted, right?

Edited August 27, 2023 by krackcommando

[Darkestmonty]

Just now, krackcommando said:

that only requires 2 o 3 in arenas, and it got abused to high heaven by kicking ppl who were already dead so they could not fight.

it also isn't solving anything in wzs except an actual afk or stuck person. aaand how do you distinguish from the guy afking at a node from the guy guarding? suppose 4 ppl just wanna troll the guy guarding or they're upset with him for w/e reason. he just sucks? /kick? no dude. /kick was abused 3x for every time it actually worked. and the most egregious offenders (in 8m always) are not dumb enough to sit there. they just walk into combat. respawn. go back to their corner and troll.

I only saw it used in Arena once successfully when a team mate refused to help and stealthed around for the whole first match.

Easy fix, you can't /kick someone who is dead and removing AFKers is a benefit to any team.

[Lord_Malganus]

10 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

With out that option, we now have a steady stream of players doing absolutely nothing to finish the dailies, weeklies, and PvP season.

Exactly. They are using the way the game is designed to benefit them.

A true Solo Q not allowing pre-mades would not affect pre-made vs pre-made play.

[krackcommando]

7 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

I only saw it used in Arena once successfully when a team mate refused to help and stealthed around for the whole first match.

Easy fix, you can't /kick someone who is dead and removing AFKers is a benefit to any team.

ok. so the fight is going on on the other side of CW. you control mid and east (the battle is west). there are two guys apparently just standing there at east. which one is afk?

you're in a grp of 4 and you don't like someone on your team solo q'd? bam! /kick

the absolute worst players I ever encountered in s2 were this pair of healer/tank running around in 276 and ~300 gear. I couldn't even ask them nicely if they knew how to gear or suggest that they not queue together b/c they're both ridiculously easy kills, and being on the same team all the time will...you know...be an anchor to the team.

after I kindly made the suggestion, they said something to the effect of "we play the way want. piss off!" your genius /kick would give those 2 the power to kick me. yeah. no. fix the game. don't patch it with kick.

 edit: fix the game as in structure rewards so that you can't just /stuck you way to your seasonal goal. /kick? no. was bad. was mostly useless except for those who used it vindictively for ppl they didn't like in arenas. that crap ain't going away just b/c rated arenas are gone. dude is bad or new and dies too quick (happens to the BEST of us) and a couple of regs/friends vote to kick. you're just flat wrong on this.

Edited August 27, 2023 by krackcommando

[Darkestmonty]

12 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

ok. so the fight is going on on the other side of CW. you control mid and east (the battle is west). there are two guys apparently just standing there at east. which one is afk?

you're in a grp of 4 and you don't like someone on your team solo q'd? bam! /kick

the absolute worst players I ever encountered in s2 were this pair of healer/tank running around in 276 and ~300 gear. I couldn't even ask them nicely if they knew how to gear or suggest that they not queue together b/c they're both ridiculously easy kills, and being on the same team all the time will...you know...be an anchor to the team.

after I kindly made the suggestion, they said something to the effect of "we play the way want. piss off!" your genius /kick would give those 2 the power to kick me. yeah. no. fix the game. don't patch it with kick.

kick can be canceled by doing damage to an enemy, healing a team mate, earning attack points, or earning defender points.

If you are not healing, doing damage to an enemy, earning attack points by picking up energy, turning in energy, capturing a location, being near a location when it is captured, or earning defender points by being near a node your team controls... yeah you deserve to be kicked especially when at least 50% of the team needs to vote to kick you.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Lord_Malganus]

Then kick them.

[krackcommando]

4 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

kick can be canceled by doing damage to an enemy, healing a team mate, earning attack points, or earning defender points.

If you are not healing, doing damage to an enemy, earning attack points by picking up energy, turning in energy, capturing a location, being near a location when it is captured, or earning defender points by being near a node your team controls... yeah you deserve to be kicked especially when at least 50% of the team needs to vote to kick you.

 

already been over this. two guys standing on the node. nobody's attacking it. one is afk. one is actually present and guarding. they're both getting defender points. go on. tell me which one is which?

and encouraged ppl to run orbs in ahg is the height of stupidity. the person might as well be afk for all the good he's doing. the number of ingrates who try to pick up orbs in the midst of a fire fight is mindnumbing. that is entirely self serving. you may get attacker points for the orb, but you're screwing your team over who are either A) dying 3:1 for every orb, or B) have such  control over the map that there is zero need for the points your orb brings in. literally worse than the dude afking on the node. (ok. not worse. the same.)

[Darkestmonty]

a player AFKing on an active node is at least semi-useful compared the player hiding in the corner of the map in bushes where they will never be attacked. That AFK player on the node can be used as bait, can die and eventually be auto-kicked for not leaving the spawn zone.

What's better, the option to kick a player hiding in the corner of the map AFK while not being able to kick an AFKer being bait on a node, or never being able to kick players who AFK anywhere on the map?

We need the /kick vote option back.

[Darkestmonty]

I think I remember vote kicking a dead player in Arena years ago.

When players could /stuck every round in Arena, this guy would /stuck both rounds before the match started if he didn't get on the team he wanted. Guy was a toxic mess so we eventually kicked him while was dead after he did this multiple games in a row.

I feel no sympathy for people who refuse to take part in the game and want to leach win/losses off their team mates.

[ZUHFB]

6 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

my biggest issue with PvP is /kick was removed.

/kick could not be spammed

/kick could be canceled by healing a team mate, damaging an enemy, or gaining attacker/defender points

/kick needed at least 50% of the team to vote to kick the player

With all those protections and ways to cancel the /kick vote by playing the game, the only people who were ever kicked were those that were AFK.

 

With out that option, we now have a steady stream of players hiding in corners the instant the game looks like a loss to leach free points for the dailies, weeklies, and PvP season. It's even an issue in Arena when your team mate refuses to drop stealth and fight because they don't think the match making is fair so they sit there in stealth until the timer runs out.

haha true, and the 3, or so, times Darth Junkie got kicked on stream where so funny

[TrixxieTriss]

Kick was abused. The same as stuck is also being abuse then & now.  

[Darkestmonty]

3 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

Kick was abused. The same as stuck is also being abuse then & now.  

Other than vote kicking dead players in arena, how else was it abused? Simple fix for vote kicking dead players is to disable it in Arena.

If you aren't near a node guarding earning defender points, near a node earning attacker points, hitting enemies, healing team mates, shielding team mates, all of which immediately cancel the vote kick, what are you doing that is helping your team? How is a person abusing vote kick when you are actively helping your team?

/stuck has a timer on use and a long respawn timer. You can no longer /stuck anytime you want and instantly respawn.

 

You know what is being abused? The lack of a vote kick system. Players who queue up, don't see an easy win, then instantly hide in a corner and AFK the rest of the game.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

Other than vote kicking dead players in arena, how else was it abused? Simple fix for vote kicking dead players is to disable it in Arena.

If you aren't near a node guarding earning defender points, near a node earning attacker points, hitting enemies, healing team mates, shielding team mates, all of which immediately cancel the vote kick, what are you doing that is helping your team? How is a person abusing vote kick when you are actively helping your team?

/stuck has a timer on use and a long respawn timer. You can no longer /stuck anytime you want and instantly respawn.

 

You know what is being abused? The lack of a vote kick system. Players who queue up, don't see an easy win, then instantly hide in a corner and AFK the rest of the game.

i'm gonna try this one more time. then leave you alone to rant away, because clearly no amount of common sense is going to get through.

players, especially random players, cannot be relied upon to judge a vote to kick. it always has been and always will be used to bully other players. you seem incapable of understanding this because you seem to think since you would never do this that it didn't happen ALL THE TIME. it did. pvp gets ppl emotional. they find a focus for their rage at losing, and they lash out at them. that happened A LOT, and no, the person being voted out need not have been dead. it could just be a bad player or a player you don't like in spawn. and I don't give a tom, d.i.c.k., or harry whether that's something YOU personally would do, b/c I've seen it many many times. it has happened around me. it has happened to me, simply because I disagreed with our healer who was buddies with the other two players. pure spite. that's what vote to kick boils down to. that's why players absolutely cannot be trusted with power over others.

I don't know how else to explain this to you, but you have your fun crusading for a meaningless "tool" instead of addressing the far more important macro issues that allow players to gain credit toward their seasonal goals. the latter is clearly the cause, while you're advocating the equivalent of treating an infection by slapping a band aid on it. how do you not see this? really. it's absurd. it's in the first post of this thread.

Edited August 28, 2023 by krackcommando

[Darkestmonty]

how are you continuously getting wrongfully vote kicked if you are

1. near a node defending constantly earning defender points which automatically cancels a vote kick
2. attacking an enemy player which automatically cancels a vote kick
3. guarding a player being attacked which automatically cancels a vote kick
4. healing a team mate which automatically cancels a vote kick

I have played since release and have never been vote kicked successfully. Sure I had a few players get pissed and try to vote kick me but they never succeeded because I was either in combat, guarding a node, or they couldn't get enough people to vote against me.

The better question is... what were you constantly doing that you were not only able to be vote kicked but that 50% of your team voted against you.

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[TrixxieTriss]

3 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

Other than vote kicking dead players in arena, how else was it abused?

That’s exactly how it was abused. And so was booting players to troll them after they died in the last round. We aren’t talking about WZ’s, it was ranked / Arena where it was abused. 

You personally may not have seen or experienced it. But it was a enough of a regular occurrence that there were multiple threads made about it.

Evidence was also presented to BW devs via discord & discussions were more open & robust over there with them.

That’s why vote kick was removed because it was being abused enough that BW had proper data that proved it wasn’t just a handful of people doing it.

And while I agree they could have just made it so you can’t kick dead players, in my experience vote kick never worked  when you really needed it to, especially not in WZ’s. 

4 hours ago, Darkestmonty said:

stuck has a timer on use and a long respawn timer. You can no longer /stuck anytime you want and instantly respawn.

You never could instantly respawn from using stuck in arena. It has always had a timer. That doesn’t mean people don’t abuse it in Arena matches to kill themselves to throw the match. That has been done since the ranked days & is done now because people want to finish the daily etc without actually pvping. Which is abusing the stuck feature. 

[TrixxieTriss]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

players, especially random players, cannot be relied upon to judge a vote to kick. it always has been and always will be used to bully other players

100% this 👆

Its the main reason it was removed. 

[TrixxieTriss]

39 minutes ago, Darkestmonty said:

I have played since release and have never been vote kicked successfully

It’s obvious from your responses that you never played ranked or currently play arena. That is where vote kick was abused. 

But I do agree that vote kick isn’t successful in WZ’s because it requires 50+% of the players to vote to kick a person. Which is nearly impossible unless you’re all in a pre-made together on voice comms. So why keep asking for it back 🤷🏻‍♀️.

Honestly, I never saw vote kick work reliably in WZ’s when we did have it. Even when you had someone AFK hiding in the tunnels in hypergates or AFK in the corner of maps. It didn’t work to remove those AFKers & wouldn’t work any better now.

And it was abused in Arena / ranked. So the easiest fix was to remove it because it caused more issues than it was worth. 

[Darkestmonty]

1 hour ago, TrixxieTriss said:

That’s exactly how it was abused. And so was booting players to troll them after they died in the last round. We aren’t talking about WZ’s, it was ranked / Arena where it was abused. 

You personally may not have seen or experienced it. But it was a enough of a regular occurrence that there were multiple threads made about it.

Evidence was also presented to BW devs via discord & discussions were more open & robust over there with them.

That’s why vote kick was removed because it was being abused enough that BW had proper data that proved it wasn’t just a handful of people doing it.

And while I agree they could have just made it so you can’t kick dead players, in my experience vote kick never worked  when you really needed it to, especially not in WZ’s. 

You never could instantly respawn from using stuck in arena. It has always had a timer. That doesn’t mean people don’t abuse it in Arena matches to kill themselves to throw the match. That has been done since the ranked days & is done now because people want to finish the daily etc without actually pvping. Which is abusing the stuck feature. 

respawn for Warzones, you don't respawn in Arena until the next round. If I remember right, at release, /stuck put you back in the respawn room with no delay like you were killed. It was faster to /stuck than running away, hiding, and healing up or if you wanted to rush back to your end zone in Huttball to stop a ball runner, you could /stuck to instantly respawn back and if you were lucky could leave the room in a few seconds to help defend. This was changed pretty quickly and they added a timer until you could release after using /stuck.

/stuck in Arena always killed you for that round and you had to wait until the next round before you respawned.

I dealt with a player that would constantly /stuck themselves in ranked PvP if they didn't get the team they wanted. That was before they instituted a once per Arena match /stuck rule 2 (?) years ago. He would see the good players on the other team, /stuck before the match started while yelling at everyone on our team for throwing and win trading. He would do the same thing the second round without ever getting the irony he was the only person on our team throwing the game. /stuck made no difference in the outcome of our games because without it he would have walked out into the arena and let himself die while blaming us for the loss.

I don't see the current once per game /stuck in arena as an issue. The lack of /stuck isn't going to suddenly make a person try their best in Arena or Warzone. The current /stuck timer before you can release makes it useless in a Warzone for quickly respawning.

  

1 hour ago, TrixxieTriss said:

It’s obvious from your responses that you never played ranked or currently play arena. That is where vote kick was abused. 

But I do agree that vote kick isn’t successful in WZ’s because it requires 50+% of the players to vote to kick a person. Which is nearly impossible unless you’re all in a pre-made together on voice comms. So why keep asking for it back 🤷🏻‍♀️.

Honestly, I never saw vote kick work reliably in WZ’s when we did have it. Even when you had someone AFK hiding in the tunnels in hypergates or AFK in the corner of maps. It didn’t work to remove those AFKers & wouldn’t work any better now.

And it was abused in Arena / ranked. So the easiest fix was to remove it because it caused more issues than it was worth. 

you really like to paint yourself into a corner calling other players liars. Keep at it, it works for you.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Darkestmonty

[Beyrahl]

The player experience has to improve baseline. Nothing will stop players from not wanting to play, crying wolf, and giving up hiding under ancient Hypergate spawn for example. 
A kick doesn't solve anything as you have to get majority and it's often maliciously used, even more so in the arena. (You couldn't even get deadofwinter out with it if you tried)
Removing stuck also doesn't really help because sometimes you actually do get stuck and it generally has a decent penalty already for doing it. 
I have had a +1 rating follower alert since like 5.0, the story behind it is that players would /stuck & leave round one (long before lockouts) denying any rating to the enemy team. If they thought the match was lost they'd just leave. Or if they simply didn't like someone. It was very rampant and players left very much so winnable games, It messed with MMR and caused a lot of issues that pushed me away from SR and more into GR. If you were a part of the ranked community at the time you know several people who heavily abused it. 
The point is either ranked or not, people tend to give up the moment they feel they face opposition they either can't beat or don't want to even bother trying. When it comes to a team-based mode like 8v8 - which is far different from a survival 4v4 death match. It really starts showing and impacting the whole match from the start of their submitted defeat. Far too many players nowadays think 8v8 is a great place to duel, it can be if you actually go for off-node and protect it. But in reality, most of these players just end up 2-5+ one guy and consider it a duel. It's a shame because team fights are part of my appeal of 8v8, the chaos of everything going on keeps me mentally engaged as does the tank & heal arena. There's far too little going on in the game to keep my personal attention in these super small skirmishes if that's all the warzone ends up being and it seems that's becoming the appeal of most players, those small skirmishes. 
Why would they have an appeal towards those? Well with fewer players it's less damage and generally makes TTK even slower, more time to react and do things. If everyone had gear, or bolster for augments, or simply a more straightforward gearing process explaining for example blue enhancements are HP focused, don't use them at all. Everyone would be in a better spot and maybe give it more effort, but they don't - their survival, damage, and potential learning suffer due to them either blaming XYZ instead of having some self-reflection. I know some play PvP as something to take a break from IRL, but it's still PvP, It's competitive in nature and you shouldn't expect someone to take it "easy" or call them a tryhard when in reality the chances are the skill tier difference between you and them is far more drastic than you credit. 

I made a post in PvP forums covering a lot of the obvious broad issues preventing casuals from getting more enjoyment from the game but tl;dr version is.

• Bolster for augments needs to happen. -50k hp / 5-6k stat loss with none. Bolster does 0 if you're missing slots.
• Green gear is terrible, HP focused, low power, blue gear is similar, emphasis on PvP gear / Modded needs to be hammered home. Including not using blue enhancements.
• Dead talents, Most classes have more than one, and on top of that, some have way more implications than others in PvP. Lot of noobtraps too.
• Class buffs can still be missing, This inherently stacks with low secondary stats, low gear, and no augments, hence HP-focused pieces you start off with. 
• Matchmaking doesn't work as is, backfills often happen to the majority of high WR players leaving them in an unbalanced match. 
• Lack of tutorials and a general lack of direction, looking at OPG, removing the northern node, and making mid-spawn first every time would add much-needed direction. 
• Class balance and pruning, Some classes are mostly the same or better than before while others got gutted entirely. Examples pt/jugg compared to mara/sin.
• No mercy rule. Most games have one in unbalanced PvP matches and will cause it to end early to save the players from a really prolonged rough match. 
• no competitive mode, you can't reintroduce the same thing we had. It has to be different and actually policed as it previously was a joke because it wasn't. 

[Skummy]

But i like being farmed by premades over and over again while my team is full of bots and being spit on and laughed at in a game with no ranked kekw. Epic combat dying 100-0 with dcds up lagged out, best korean mmo pvp on the market. Wonder why they took rank away oh yea i remember cuz even if u won against the best team they have there stealth bugg out the map and u die in acid and lose. sik ranked pvp KEK DUBBBZ

Edited August 28, 2023 by Skummy