Seasons was one of the worst things to happen to PVP

[Lord_Malganus]

1 hour ago, Skummy said:

But i like being farmed by premades over and over again while my team is full of bots and being spit on and laughed at in a game with no ranked kekw. Epic combat dying 100-0 with dcds up lagged out, best korean mmo pvp on the market. Wonder why they took rank away oh yea i remember cuz even if u won against the best team they have there stealth bugg out the map and u die in acid and lose. sik ranked pvp KEKW DUBB

This is exactly why there are complaints about players that do nothing, weather AFK, hiding, running around in stealth, not gearing up, using /stuck, etc. As long as Pvp awards Tech frags and Cosmetics for time spent doing just that, it WILL continue and even become more prevelant.

Of course, the dev's could remove that option, but they know that would cause many more than already have, to quit Pvp altogether, further reducing the participation pool. By not having two seperate Q's for pre-made and Solo, the Dev's and the Pvp community have created their own monster.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Lord_Malganus

[sithBracer]

2 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

The player experience has to improve baseline. Nothing will stop players from not wanting to play, crying wolf, and giving up hiding under ancient Hypergate spawn for example. 
A kick doesn't solve anything as you have to get majority and it's often maliciously used, even more so in the arena. (You couldn't even get deadofwinter out with it if you tried)
Removing stuck also doesn't really help because sometimes you actually do get stuck and it generally has a decent penalty already for doing it. 
I have had a +1 rating follower alert since like 5.0, the story behind it is that players would /stuck & leave round one (long before lockouts) denying any rating to the enemy team. If they thought the match was lost they'd just leave. Or if they simply didn't like someone. It was very rampant and players left very much so winnable games, It messed with MMR and caused a lot of issues that pushed me away from SR and more into GR. If you were a part of the ranked community at the time you know several people who heavily abused it. 
The point is either ranked or not, people tend to give up the moment they feel they face opposition they either can't beat or don't want to even bother trying. When it comes to a team-based mode like 8v8 - which is far different from a survival 4v4 death match. It really starts showing and impacting the whole match from the start of their submitted defeat. Far too many players nowadays think 8v8 is a great place to duel, it can be if you actually go for off-node and protect it. But in reality, most of these players just end up 2-5+ one guy and consider it a duel. It's a shame because team fights are part of my appeal of 8v8, the chaos of everything going on keeps me mentally engaged as does the tank & heal arena. There's far too little going on in the game to keep my personal attention in these super small skirmishes if that's all the warzone ends up being and it seems that's becoming the appeal of most players, those small skirmishes. 
Why would they have an appeal towards those? Well with fewer players it's less damage and generally makes TTK even slower, more time to react and do things. If everyone had gear, or bolster for augments, or simply a more straightforward gearing process explaining for example blue enhancements are HP focused, don't use them at all. Everyone would be in a better spot and maybe give it more effort, but they don't - their survival, damage, and potential learning suffer due to them either blaming XYZ instead of having some self-reflection. I know some play PvP as something to take a break from IRL, but it's still PvP, It's competitive in nature and you shouldn't expect someone to take it "easy" or call them a tryhard when in reality the chances are the skill tier difference between you and them is far more drastic than you credit. 

I made a post in PvP forums covering a lot of the obvious broad issues preventing casuals from getting more enjoyment from the game but tl;dr version is.

• Bolster for augments needs to happen. -50k hp / 5-6k stat loss with none. Bolster does 0 if you're missing slots.
• Green gear is terrible, HP focused, low power, blue gear is similar, emphasis on PvP gear / Modded needs to be hammered home. Including not using blue enhancements.
• Dead talents, Most classes have more than one, and on top of that, some have way more implications than others in PvP. Lot of noobtraps too.
• Class buffs can still be missing, This inherently stacks with low secondary stats, low gear, and no augments, hence HP-focused pieces you start off with. 
• Matchmaking doesn't work as is, backfills often happen to the majority of high WR players leaving them in an unbalanced match. 
• Lack of tutorials and a general lack of direction, looking at OPG, removing the northern node, and making mid-spawn first every time would add much-needed direction. 
• Class balance and pruning, Some classes are mostly the same or better than before while others got gutted entirely. Examples pt/jugg compared to mara/sin.
• No mercy rule. Most games have one in unbalanced PvP matches and will cause it to end early to save the players from a really prolonged rough match. 
• no competitive mode, you can't reintroduce the same thing we had. It has to be different and actually policed as it previously was a joke because it wasn't. 

I'm sure broadsword can't wait to get on this. We all know how much they care about the games they keep in maintenance mode.

[sithBracer]

50 minutes ago, Lord_Malganus said:

This is exactly why there are complaints about players that do nothing, weather AFK, hiding, running around in stealth, not gearing up, using /stuck, etc. As long as Pvp awards Tech frags and Cosmetics for time spent doing just that, it WILL continue and even become more prevelant.

Of course, the dev's could remove that option, but they know that would cause many more than already have, to quit Pvp altogether, further reducing the participation pool. By not having two seperate Q's for pre-made and Solo, the Dev's and the Pvp community have created their own monster.

You know if you guys spent half as much time learning the game as you do whining about pre-mades, you might just be able to beat them. Trust me, most of them are not that good.

[Lord_Malganus]

Yeah, I bet they jump right on it!

[Lord_Malganus]

1 minute ago, sithBracer said:

You know if you guys spent half as much time learning the game as you do whining about pre-mades, you might just be able to beat them. Trust me, most of them are not that good.

This mentality is what has caused all the problems with Pvp in this game.

[Skummy]

7 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

You know if you guys spent half as much time learning the game as you do whining about pre-mades, you might just be able to beat them. Trust me, most of them are not that good.

Yea that was my fun in 2.0 but the quality of players is not there anymore, So 1v8 premades is almost impossible with ablity pruning making some classes just a target dummy. Dcds not doing anything and white bar resetting before u even land in the spawn. Gear uneven through out the board. And I always take the most dmg because i get hard focused because of guild tag and spend about 70% in the spawn. Yea ill beat premade 1v8 kekw Korean mmo pvp xDDD

Edited August 28, 2023 by Skummy

[sithBracer]

2 minutes ago, Skummy said:

Yea that was my fun in 2.0 but the quality of players is not there anymore, So 1v8 premades is almost impossible with ablity pruning making some classes just a target dummy. Dcds not doing anything and white bar resetting before u even land in the spawn. LOl

I think we all agree any groups more than 4 should not be allowed. That was such a dumb decision. Either way groups more than even 3 are super rare. I don't even see them anymore.

Edited August 28, 2023 by sithBracer

[Skummy]

10 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

I think we all agree any groups more than 4 should not be allowed. That was such a dumb decision. Either way groups more than even 3 are super rare. I don't even see them anymore.

Happened to me last week lol what you taling about full premade of no idea hard focusing me and spitting on me then harrising me saying im jsut dotting stuff xDD yea wut u want me to do im alive for 2 secs so much counterplay in swtor these days kekw Anyone that really knows me knows that i used to love to out dps premades that was my thing. Its almost impossible now with the quality of players you get and the way 7.0 is.

 

Sad part is theirs no rank in this mmo its a casual story mmo always has been xDDD Think even ffxiv has a rank mode kekw

Edited August 28, 2023 by Skummy

[sithBracer]

11 minutes ago, Skummy said:

Happened to me last week lol what you taling about full premade of no idea hard focusing me and spitting on me then harrising me saying im jsut dotting stuff xDD yea wut u want me to do im alive for 2 secs so much counterplay in swtor these days kekw Anyone that really knows me knows that i used to love to out dps premades that was my thing. Its almost impossible now with the quality of players you get and the way 7.0 is.

 

Sad part is theirs no rank in this mmo its a casual story mmo always has been xDDD Think even ffxiv has a rank mode kekw

I had a bunch of them chasing me all over the map before finally killing me. Then my healer whispered me saying "I could've helped you, but it was more fun watching you run around getting killed" lol. that was a few weeks ago. It happens, but let's not pretend this is the everyday experience.

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

Far too many players nowadays think 8v8 is a great place to duel, it can be if you actually go for off-node and protect it. But in reality, most of these players just end up 2-5+ one guy and consider it a duel. It's a shame because team fights are part of my appeal of 8v8, the chaos of everything going on keeps me mentally engaged as does the tank & heal arena. There's far too little going on in the game to keep my personal attention in these super small skirmishes if that's all the warzone ends up being and it seems that's becoming the appeal of most players, those small skirmishes. 

 

what you describe is something that only works in rated WZs. you need teams of a certain caliber to go toe to toe in 7v7 fights, especially when they know how to focus. and let's face it, it doesn't take a lot of DPS to put someone in respawn (as you've gone over a few times). it's not that i'm opposed to going mid. but once it's established that the other team is just going to wipe mine, there's really no point. you kinda have to look for those 1v1 and 1v2 opportunities.

anyway, it's my experience the WZs are generally more lopsided than arenas, and the outcome is determined long before the match ends, which is an endless frustration for everyone NOT there just to pop heads.

[Skummy]

9 minutes ago, sithBracer said:

I had a bunch of them chasing me all over the map before finally killing me. Then my healer whispered me saying "I could've helped you, but it was more fun watching you run around getting killed" lol. that was a few weeks ago. It happens, but let's not pretend this is the everyday experience.

PLay with me solo and it will happen everytime u log on, accept wen we get a full grp with healer then all the ques die wierd.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Skummy

[sithBracer]

2 minutes ago, Skummy said:

PLay with me solo and it will happen everytime u log on, accept wen we get a full grp with healer then all the ques die wierd.

If you are on starforge DM me your character and we can try.

[Beyrahl]

2 hours ago, krackcommando said:

anyway, it's my experience the WZs are generally more lopsided than arenas, and the outcome is determined long before the match ends, which is an endless frustration for everyone NOT there just to pop heads.

Games being prolonged does suck but we're on two different sides of opinion. It could be better for both of us if people understood the fundamentals of counting and guarding but, I like brute force winning (specifically making it near impossible for them to play obj) and feel it's undeserved if it doesn't go down that way. I see it if you're in PvP to do anything but PvP it's just wrong. You couldn't put a single reward in the game to make me guard a node no one wants to attack for a weekly. But as you said, only rated would change players' mindset on it. PvP to PvP, nothing else, legitimately only other thing I do is bug test, parse, and mess with stats. 
Leaving PvP at least in a more functional state would be great, maintenance mode or not I feel it's not a difficult task. 

[krackcommando]

3 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

Games being prolonged does suck but we're on two different sides of opinion. It could be better for both of us if people understood the fundamentals of counting and guarding but, I like brute force winning (specifically making it near impossible for them to play obj) and feel it's undeserved if it doesn't go down that way. I see it if you're in PvP to do anything but PvP it's just wrong. You couldn't put a single reward in the game to make me guard a node no one wants to attack for a weekly. But as you said, only rated would change players' mindset on it. PvP to PvP, nothing else, legitimately only other thing I do is bug test, parse, and mess with stats. 
Leaving PvP at least in a more functional state would be great, maintenance mode or not I feel it's not a difficult task. 

just testing if everything I post requires "moderation" or if it was just the specific thread as I received no warnings nor do I recall saying anything "inflammatory." (unless saying someone is flat wrong is judged inflammatory).

edit: ok. it's just the thread that's moderated. as for ^this quote, I'm not sure what you mean. most of the time teams ignore objectives to DM, they lose. all yo have to do is keep sending them some fresh meat and they're happy to chew on that. it really sucks to on that team or fighting against it tbh.

Edited August 28, 2023 by krackcommando

[krackcommando]

9 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

(You couldn't even get deadofwinter out with it if you tried)

I was going to mention that had I not decided to stop arguing against a brick wall. 😄

[Xerekfell]

On 8/25/2023 at 6:19 PM, Jettsett said:

I've never seen people less willing to PVP. Every single day I expect to see people randomly /stuck rather than fight back when somebody attacks them. You try to fight people and they throw a grenade and run away from you without even attacking you once, unless they happen to be joined by another teammate mid run, but even then that's not a guarantee. You see people huddling in spawn or at a single node rather than fight one or two people away from it because they don't want to risk dying. These people then proceed to get angry or call you toxic if you keep trying to fight them when they choose to do nothing back. They wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the fact they want rewards for nothing, and I'm certain that less people would've left the game if they didn't have to play with people who act like this. It's not fun to be with or against them.

If seasons are here to stay, I feel like there should be at least some kind of requirement to get rewards that go past just showing up and AFKing at a node or playing a certain amount of games. It should be tied to actually doing protection, healing or DPS. It doesn't have to be high, but people are quite literally refusing to fight. It's ridiculous.

The Devs seem to think PVP is not inherently toxic when PVP is toxic in nature considering it's versing other players. The Issue with having rewards now is the Devs don't care and cater to the Story Players and Barbie Doll Players. Then you have the people who can't press 1-4 on Arsenal Merc and do 3.0 numbers in 7.0. Having requirements for anything in pvp is considered toxic according to BioWare but having requirements in PVE is not toxic and accepted. It's why Ranked PVP was removed among other reasons.

[Beyrahl]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

most of the time teams ignore objectives to DM, they lose. all yo have to do is keep sending them some fresh meat and they're happy to chew on that. it really sucks to on that team or fighting against it tbh.

Yeah, I don't mean this, a giant death ball that gets nothing done because they never split up. Being able to cover all 3 nodes for example in civil war, even if not for the whole game is my idea of brute force. Not letting them play objective while anyone on your team can freely play it with no contest. 

[Darkestmonty]

9 hours ago, sithBracer said:

I think we all agree any groups more than 4 should not be allowed. That was such a dumb decision. Either way groups more than even 3 are super rare. I don't even see them anymore.

I see them a lot on SS but that may be because SS has a much smaller population so a single premade of 4 or more may show up in every game until they stop queueing.

[Samcuu]

15 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

Bolster for augments needs to happen. -50k hp / 5-6k stat loss with none. Bolster does 0 if you're missing slots

I think this is a non starter for the devs because ever since I can remember they treat the gear grind as content. Just bolstering ppl to the bis gear is gonna take away their precious gear grind. Also I just personally disagree with it as it kinda flies in the face of the mmo aspect. Gotta work for gear nothing is given in an mmo imo. 

 

15 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

Matchmaking doesn't work as is, backfills often happen to the majority of high WR players leaving them in an unbalanced match. 

Ahh makes sense I'm always wondering why I'm getting in matches either just as they are starting or already started. Can't disagree with u at all here because yes its annoying af to be zoned in to a lopsided match. 

 

15 hours ago, Beyrahl said:

Class balance and pruning, Some classes are mostly the same or better than before while others got gutted entirely. Examples pt/jugg compared to mara/sin.

I personally don't want more abilities taken out of the game. Add abilities if anything for the weaker performing classes. Issue with that is the ppl making the changes have to understand how the classes are underperforming and act accordingly. Not sure I have a lot of faith in that atm. One of the pitfalls of this game was arenas ever existing. Class balance was already an issue arenas exacerbated that because what's OP in wzs doesn't necessarily translate to arenas and vice versa. Probably should just swap back to skill trees or a pool of abilities that you get to choose from so you can have a wz build, arena build, and pve build. 

Pretty salient points tho otherwise as usual good post. 

[krackcommando]

7 hours ago, Samcuu said:

One of the pitfalls of this game was arenas ever existing.

arenas are a great inclusion to the game. the problem was making them the premier form of pvp and downgrading WZs to meaninglessness.

also, it's solo arenas, imo, that really tweaked the balance issue. i preferred solo rated arenas just as I would prefer solo rated WZs - because I'm lazy: they're easier to put together and they're easier to win. but if it means popping 8v8 without tanks or healers? or heals on one team and tank on the other (as the current queue does)? omg! what an utter disaster for balance and matchmaking.

solo rated became its own ecosystem that exacerbated the balance issues of arenas in general. outside of win trading/pick-up games and troll comps (2 heals + 2 tanks), group arenas were straight trinity, which transfers reasonably well between the two formats.

iunno. I would not get rid of arenas. but then...who was it advocated arenas that wanted to get rid of RWZs? I remember plenty of the inverse but not any of the former.  iunno. I say iunno a lot about this game's decison-making devs/game-designers/whatever.

Edited August 29, 2023 by krackcommando
iunno

[Prapcaster]

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

arenas are a great inclusion to the game. the problem was making them the premier form of pvp and downgrading WZs to meaninglessness.

also, it's solo arenas, imo, that really tweaked the balance issue. i preferred solo rated arenas just as I would prefer solo rated WZs - because I'm lazy: they're easier to put together and they're easier to win. but if it means popping 8v8 without tanks or healers? or heals on one team and tank on the other (as the current queue does)? omg! what an utter disaster for balance and matchmaking.

solo rated became its own ecosystem that exacerbated the balance issues of arenas in general. outside of win trading/pick-up games and troll comps (2 heals + 2 tanks), group arenas were straight trinity, which transfers reasonably well between the two formats.

iunno. I would not get rid of arenas. but then...who was it advocated arenas that wanted to get rid of RWZs? I remember plenty of the inverse but not any of the former.  iunno. I say iunno a lot about this game's decison-making devs/game-designers/whatever.

It wouldn't even have taken them more work to keep 8v8 ranked as well as 4v4 ranked. Two seperate ques with two seperate leaderboards. That's the biggest issue I've always had with this team. There's zero middle ground it always one extreme or the other. Old buddy I used to play with years ago who was a coder or something like that for bioware. Not a dev just an employee. According to what he told me they polled a bunch of ranked players and most were in favor of adding 4v4 ranked but they never told them it was gonna cause the deletion of a game mode.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Prapcaster

[Beyrahl]

11 hours ago, Samcuu said:

think this is a non starter for the devs because ever since I can remember they treat the gear grind as content. Just bolstering ppl to the bis gear is gonna take away their precious gear grind. Also I just personally disagree with it as it kinda flies in the face of the mmo aspect. Gotta work for gear nothing is given in an mmo imo. 

This is the only expansion that augments didn't have some sort of bolster. I am not saying give BiS stats, but no way should you be immediately down 6k stats. It matters so much currently along with that, this is the only expansion yet again - with nearly nonfunctional bolster. If you're above around 290s you no longer get much if any stats from bolster. 

 

11 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Ahh makes sense I'm always wondering why I'm getting in matches either just as they are starting or already started. Can't disagree with u at all here because yes its annoying af to be zoned in to a lopsided match. 

Most of the time I logout anymore or leave a warzone due to multiple backfills after annoyingly long queues.
 

 

11 hours ago, Samcuu said:

Add abilities if anything for the weaker performing classes.

Yes, undo the overdone pruning on some classes. For example, now that Defel is completely useless for PvP and it's part of what kept them good in PvP it'd be nice to see pacify come back, even if it's changed it doesn't have to do anything with accuracy. Or simply realigning the skill tree, sin needs realignment too. 

 

 

4 hours ago, krackcommando said:

they're easier to put together and they're easier to win

Seasonal solo ranked modes would be incredible and 10x easier to police as they'd only go on for certain periods of time. They could even go further and only have it available for limited hours throughout the week basically making it like fomo lol. But hey it works, bdo does this for example. 

 

[krackcommando]

24 minutes ago, Beyrahl said:

Seasonal solo ranked modes would be incredible and 10x easier to police as they'd only go on for certain periods of time. They could even go further and only have it available for limited hours throughout the week basically making it like fomo lol. But hey it works, bdo does this for example. 

I actually think BW's/BS's goal is to keep things as cost effective (less maintenance) as possible. shorter seasons for sure would help, but I'm not sure that any sort of rated system would work for them. I think they want to set it and forget it. Like creating the seasonal rewards is work enough for them - and even then, only because it sucks in large swathes of players who don't actually pvp (like galactic seasons chasers). policing anything is too much for them, imo. but I do agree on short seasons lessening the load on policing...just not what BW/BS is willing to delegate for it.

edit: and it would likely solve the problem of large numbers of players not playing to win or afking...so long as wining and rating remain the gates for rewards.

Edited August 29, 2023 by krackcommando

[Samcuu]

I like the idea of making rated 8 v 8 solo a thing during specific hours. I think that's a great idea. I think it would have to be in between seasons tho cuz if it was during seasons you'd have anyone joining which would lead to insane toxicity levels. Newer players have no clue how to play or gear so expecting them to keep track of when Ranked is popping would be bad lol. 

Edited August 29, 2023 by Samcuu

[merovejec]

It is indeed terrible and I only play it to finish the PVP achievements. But it really pains me to que for pvp.