The Endgame "Launch" Buttons are a Cop Out

[Addictress]

I know what the masses will say. I know the masses will conclude, "give us the choice."

 

But it's cheap It's a cop out. I don't want to click the launch button for this "Objective Meridian" quest where I have to meet with Major Anri on the White Maw. I know I can choose to do that myself, in my playthrough. But the devs should've artistically stuck to their guns. I should have to use my ship to fly to the fleet, then use the inter-fleet transport shuttle; an endearing little scene in which devs and designers spent time creating the atmospheric vibes of seeing ships and planets splayed before you in the vastness of unadulterated space, to get to the White Maw, then walk over to Major Anri. This is just far more fulfilling and rewarding.

 

Yah, I know what you'll say. "You can still do that. You have a choice."

 

However, it's still just disappointing that people would beg for the cheap option and not see the value in going through those motions. It just makes me sad.

[xordevoreaux]

1 hour ago, Addictress said:

I should have to use my ship to fly to the fleet,

Your "should" and the next person's "should" apparently differ.

Quote

However, it's still just disappointing that people would beg for the cheap option

You have already admitted people have a choice. Given that choice, we don't need you to be our content gatekeeper.

[Addictress]

Not being a content gatekeeper. It's a tongue-in-cheek and personal opinion - a critique of an artistic game design choice. Like if I was doing a film review of the movie Barbie or something.

[Addictress]

4 hours ago, xordevoreaux said:

Your "should" and the next person's "should" apparently differ.

You have already admitted people have a choice. Given that choice, we don't need you to be our content gatekeeper.

Just curious - where does this hostility come from? Where is the psychological root?

[xordevoreaux]

I bristle at the idea of any player blithely wishing to impose his or her playstyle on the rest of us. Avoid shortcuts if you wish, some of us may prefer them.

[Nee-Elder]

1 hour ago, Addictress said:

Just curious - where does this hostility come from? Where is the psychological root?

Check their post-history and you'll get your answer.

6 hours ago, Addictress said:

But it's cheap It's a cop out.

However, it's still just disappointing that people would beg for the cheap option and not see the value in going through those motions. It just makes me sad.

Totally agree and this is what happens when Devs cater to the lowest common denominator ( transient players )  who have no imagination and barely any concept of true immersion.

Current gamers don't want  the 'M' ( Multiplayer ) in MMO  ...and they don't want the 'RP' in  RPG.

So what are you left with?

Clickfest autofest warpfest borefest , cultivating mostly just the insatiable & the entitled.  ( *Also happening a lot in RL soceity too , thanks to supposed "technology" , which really is nothing more than a trojan-horse turning humans into drones & fools )

Makes me miss original SWG  more & more everyday.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Nee-Elder
Reason: even the awful NGE era of SWG had more immersion, cuz sandbox > themepark

[Addictress]

16 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

Check their post-history and you'll get your answer.

Totally agree and this is what happens when Devs cater to the lowest common denominator ( transient players )  who have no imagination and barely any concept of true immersion.

Current gamers don't want  the 'M' ( Multiplayer ) in MMO  ...and they don't want the 'RP' in  RPG.

So what are you left with?

Clickfest autofest warpfest borefest , cultivating mostly just the insatiable & the entitled.  ( *Also happening a lot in RL soceity too , thanks to supposed "technology" , which really is nothing more than a trojan-horse turning humans into drones & fools )

Makes me miss original SWG  more & more everyday.

Thank you *splashes mountain spring water on face* 

 

I was really trying to compliment and support the devs and designers of the game who worked on the in-between environments. The little in-between space between the fleet ships is really neat. The background chatter on the fleet. The view from any shuttle on any planet and all the landscapes in between.

[xordevoreaux]

17 minutes ago, Addictress said:

I was really trying to compliment and support the devs and designers of the game who worked on the in-between environments. The little in-between space between the fleet ships is really neat. The background chatter on the fleet. The view from any shuttle on any planet and all the landscapes in between.

You could have easily made such a compliment to the devs without ever planting the idea in their minds that they should have "artistically stuck to their guns" i.e., never put those time-saving launch buttons there, and then cause everyone else some rude problems down the road if they followed suit with that suggestion.

I therefore countered that with my voice saying no, I appreciate time-saving mechanisms, and yes, I do pour on very strongly against ideas I don't like, but unlike some in this thread who prefer to lob backhanded personal attacks, I stick to the suggestion, not focus on the forum participant.

[JenaSalton]

2 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Totally this is what happens when Devs cater to the lowest common denominator ( transient players )  who have no imagination and barely any concept of true immersion.

I'm not a transient player. I have an imagination and a very true concept of what immersion is.

And, I appreciate having the launch buttons for the same reason I appreciate having quick travel. My using the launch button to get to the starting point of a quest is no different than me quick traveling across Hoth rather than having my character walk across it. Sure, one of those options is more immersive and realistic, but the other option actual let's me play the game and the story rather than needing to waste time moving across a planet I've walked across several times already with nothing of immediate interest to me.

The option, as @xordevoreauxmentioned, is still there for people who want to do the walking route - and sometimes I do take it. But lets not pretend that people who chose not to are somehow missing a vital part of a game that is meant to be entertainment and fun for the person who is playing, whether people on the forums agree with their methods of playing.

[Nee-Elder]

5 hours ago, xordevoreaux said:

, but unlike some in this thread who prefer to lob backhanded personal attacks, I stick to the suggestion, not focus on the forum participant.

uh-huh, i guess that ^ sentence must be the exception to your ever so noble rule

Speaking generally of course, the Internet has been around long enough for some of us to detect what is or isn't  Bantha-poodoo disguised as empty sanctimony.

More specifically, you just got all upset simply cuz i suggested someone go read your own post-history.  So telling someone to read your post-history = an "attack" ?  Wow ok then.

3 hours ago, JenaSalton said:

 but the other option actual let's me play the game and the story rather than needing to waste time moving across a planet I've walked across several times already with nothing of immediate interest to me.

whether people on the forums agree with their methods of playing.

It's not about agreeing nor disagreeing with "methods" of playing.

It's about classic fundamental pillars of how quest triggers subconsciously envelope the user in both narrative & challenge.

We have a so called "modern" playerbase who can't even be bothered with the most basic of '3-cups' fire puzzles in a new FP , much less READ actual mission descriptions/hints to test their own minds and gain digital memories for future character progression.

Also, what you refer to as "wasting time" is actually a necessary & significant part of  something you might be familar with called A Hero's Journey , in order to garner greater sense of satisfaction upon completing the mission.

Instead,  developers tend to betray such tried & true concepts  in favor of catering to apparent "convenience" demanded by a vocal-minority ( of impatient whiners ) who, ironically, end up "wasting" MORE time complaining about how "bored" they are in Fleet chat.   This has a ripple effect on both the perception of and actuality of  game morale and community deteriation.

In other words, the quick & easy path typically leads to the darkside.....often sucking everyone else down into it.

Case-in-point:  Because some section of the playerbase  is either too oblivious or too lazy  to encounter quest prompts in a more organic  way,  coders decide to just force-feed hand-hold and bam now there's a synthetic non-immersive glaring easy-button 'LAUNCH!' clicky immediately onscreen. ( almost as awful as that ridiculous instrusive blinking  self-promoting exclamation point/circle  pop-up window for the CM which cannot ever be removed nor stopped )

Example of better version that allows for player discovery: 

Spoiler

Seemingly mysterious in proximity, an NPC or companion informs the player-x  "Darth Malgus has grown restless and is now ready to speak with you about some new information" , so the player remembers how Malgus is still imprisoned on Level-5 of Elevator-B  and sets forth their own direction toward fresh story.

Look, i don't expect to pursuade you nor anyone ( including SWTOR Devs ) with this post btw , since the code cat is wayyyyyy outta the bag by now.

Gamers are conditioned to be spoiled & speeded , since Developers coded their way into creating a monster-of-masses.

But maybe just maybe there's hope for the next SW themed MMO someday.  A clean slate, with purity of path.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Nee-Elder

[VegaMist]

5 hours ago, Addictress said:

Just curious - where does this hostility come from? Where is the psychological root?

You come to a forum, propose your preferred way of playing to be enforced onto everyone, get surprised that some reject such dictatorship, and call the opposing responses hostile. Where is the psychological root to that? Just curious.

[felleto]

I haven't read all the posts, but I agree with what other people say. We have the choice. I for one still use my ship and watch the animation every time. I think it breaks my immersion being able to teleport everywhere. However, I'm not gonna shove my playstyle down people's throats. 

[Nee-Elder]

1 hour ago, VegaMist said:

You come to a forum, propose your preferred way of playing to be enforced onto everyone, get surprised that some reject such dictatorship, and call the opposing responses hostile. Where is the psychological root to that? Just curious.

Don't be so glib.  You know very well  the OP was referring to  one very specific response by one very particular poster who has a history of shall we say rather hostile & hater-ish type posts.

Also, easy with all the hyperbolic type words like "enforce" and "dictatorship"  LOL  yeah i'm sure that's exactly what the OP wanted to do.

Speaking generally of course, i continue to be amazed at how victimized current humans proport to be about the most harmless of  discussions.

1 hour ago, felleto said:

I haven't read all the posts,

smh , indicative of one of the points i'm making in this thread

1 hour ago, felleto said:

, I'm not gonna shove my playstyle down people's throats. 

uhh, exactly who is trying do "shove" anything down anyone?  sheesh more internet trope hyperbole ( Is that all anyone knows how to goto nowadays when opinions & debates occur?! )

Besides which, FYI  only the Dev coders can "shove" the customer$ something they might not want.

Lastly, this whole  "you have a choice" argument is a false one, since anyone familiar with how the human brain handles tempatation  understands why there isn't as much "choice" as it appears.  The real choice is made by the CODERS & Corporations.  ( If you build it , they will use it....and become reliant upon it, rather than on themselves. )

Edited July 27, 2023 by Nee-Elder
Reason: i should've known better than to howl at the forum moon

[felleto]

31 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

Lastly, this whole  "you have a choice" argument is a false one, since anyone familiar with how the human brain handles tempatation  understands why there isn't as much "choice" as it appears.  The real choice is made by the CODERS & Corporations.  ( If you build it , they will use it....and become reliant upon it, rather than on themselves. )

I didn't know I was not a human for not quick travelling to my ship... Now everything makes sense. ET will indeed phone home.

[Nee-Elder]

5 minutes ago, felleto said:

I didn't know I was not a human for not quick travelling to my ship... Now everything makes sense. ET will indeed phone home.

You miss my point ( no big surprise there ) and now choose to be sarcastic and umm "funny"  instead of engaging in a very deep & interesting discussion.

Time to move on, but thanks for a few minutes of entertainment in between PVP queues.

[felleto]

Just now, Nee-Elder said:

You miss my point ( no big surprise there ) and now choose to be sarcastic and umm "funny"  instead of engaging in a very deep & interesting discussion.

Time to move on, but thanks for a few minutes of entertainment in between PVP queues.

What are we without a bit of comedy in our lives. Uff... good luck with Pvp that can be brutal sometimes. 

[Nee-Elder]

6 minutes ago, felleto said:

 good luck with Pvp that can be brutal sometimes. 

Don't need luck , just need skill , situational awareness, & knowledge of Class.  ( if you don't have any of those 3 things, then just go premade and/or  just play Sorc Madness  )

And the only thing "brutal" about PVP is the faulty 14-year old game engine + lag + speedhacking kill bots.

Other than that, it's a pure joy.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Nee-Elder

[VegaMist]

1 hour ago, Nee-Elder said:

Also, easy with all the hyperbolic type words like "enforce" and "dictatorship"  LOL  yeah i'm sure that's exactly what the OP wanted to do.

That in fact is exactly what they wanted to do whether they realized it or not.

1 hour ago, Nee-Elder said:

Don't be so glib.  You know very well  the OP was referring to  one very specific response by one very particular poster who has a history of shall we say rather hostile & hater-ish type posts.

OP responded to a post which objected (rightfully so) to the proposal. You drag history into it and make it personal - to me, that sounds way more hostile than anything @xordevoreaux said in this thread (no, I'm not going to dig through his posts since it's irrelevant to a discussion at hand).

2 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Speaking generally of course, i continue to be amazed at how victimized current humans proport to be about the most harmless of  discussions.

And this pulling out of a "victim" card is just too funny.

2 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Lastly, this whole  "you have a choice" argument is a false one, since anyone familiar with how the human brain handles tempatation  understands why there isn't as much "choice" as it appears.  The real choice is made by the CODERS & Corporations.  ( If you build it , they will use it....and become reliant upon it, rather than on themselves. )

So, you advocate for not giving a choice instead? Just trying to understand the point you're trying to make here.

[Nee-Elder]

3 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

 You drag history into it and make it personal -

lol "drag"  ?  uhh, it's PUBLIC for anyone to see 24/7

And i didn't create that person's post-history.   They did that on their own.

4 minutes ago, VegaMist said:

So, you advocate for not giving a choice instead?

Just trying to understand the point you're trying to make here.

Re-read my very on topic reply here:  https://forums.swtor.com/topic/930579-the-endgame-launch-buttons-are-a-cop-out/?do=findComment&comment=9771702  to see the crux of my overall point.  ( speaking of which, ESO certainly gets my point and executes it way better than SWTOR currently does from a smoother lore-driven immersion standpoint )

As for what i do or do not "advocate" for:  Your question is flawed, since i don't believe the supposed "choice"  should've ever been given in the first place.

Just because a company ( or coder ) can grant an option to a customer ( or player )  doesn't mean that option should be granted.

Typically, especially nowadays, companies ( and coders )  give people what they want ( or think they want ) not because it's the right thing to do for integrity-of-product, but rather because it's the easiest thing to do to avoid conflict ( or lawsuits ) .

In other words, concerning SWTOR specifically and this thread OP's title: Implementing a quick 1-click warp button doesn't do anything to enhance the content/story itself , but rather it merely curtails one headache ( re: certain types of transient players too foolish/lazy to realize how/where to read quest instructions , much less go exploring to discover mission mystery ) whilst also conditioning those same players to become more & more entitled for speed rushing/consuming  at exponentially insatiable levels.  And so, inevitably, coders can't keep  up.

This is also why, imho, having just a bit more sandbox evolutionary player-generated freedoms over strictly static repetitive company-fed themepark rails  ultimately promotes a better more "lived in" type feel to the MMO experience and therefore to the Community vibe.

[juliushorst]

It's fine when you do it for the first time. It's no longer fun when you do it for the tenth time. I'm glad there is a choice.

[JenaSalton]

3 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

It's about classic fundamental pillars of how quest triggers subconsciously envelope the user in both narrative & challenge.

We have a so called "modern" playerbase who can't even be bothered with the most basic of '3-cups' fire puzzles in a new FP , much less READ actual mission descriptions/hints to test their own minds and gain digital memories for future character progression.

But, if players can't be bothered to read mission descriptions, that doesn't effect you AT ALL. If there are players who just want to run around with their lightsaber, killing enemies and don't care about the story or figuring out missions, that is perfectly acceptable when they're running their solo missions (obviously groups activities this is different) and it has no effect on you and how you play the game. Acting like they are somehow inferior to you because that's what they like isn't a good look.

3 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Because some section of the playerbase  is either too oblivious or too lazy  to encounter quest prompts in a more organic  way,  coders decide to just force-feed hand-hold and bam now there's a synthetic non-immersive glaring easy-button 'LAUNCH!' clicky immediately onscreen. ( almost as awful as that ridiculous instrusive blinking  self-promoting exclamation point/circle  pop-up window for the CM which cannot ever be removed nor stopped )

This is something I do consider a legitimate complaint, the button ans the blinking are quite annoying.

 

3 hours ago, Nee-Elder said:

Seemingly mysterious in proximity, an NPC or companion informs the player-x  "Darth Malgus has grown restless and is now ready to speak with you about some new information" , so the player remembers how Malgus is still imprisoned on Level-5 of Elevator-B  and sets forth their own direction toward fresh story.

But what about the players who've come back from a long break, have forgotten about Malgus and are running through Galactic seasons with their in-game volume turned off and chat as well? How are they going to be reminded about Malgus and realize there is more story to continue? 

 

28 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

Implementing a quick 1-click warp button doesn't do anything to enhance the content/story itself , but rather it merely curtails one headache ( re: certain types of transient players too foolish/lazy to realize how/where to read quest instructions , much less go exploring to discover mission mystery ) whilst also conditioning those same players to become more & more entitled for speed rushing/consuming  at exponentially insatiable levels.  And so, inevitably, coders can't keep  up.

But, implementing the button does enhance some players gaming experience. And that alone is enough of a reason to include it, even if some players think that it's lazy. And if players finish quickly and are left with nothing to do, so they move on to other games for a bit, that's great for them. They have no obligation to EA/Bioware/Broadsword or any other players to stick around if they don't want to because there isn't content that they want to enjoy in a way that they find the most enjoyment.

And really, it's not like players who utilize the quick travel are finishing content that much quicker than people who don't.

[Nee-Elder]

48 minutes ago, JenaSalton said:

But, if players can't be bothered to read mission descriptions, that doesn't effect you AT ALL. 

i never said it did.  ( btw, no big deal but the word you meant was "affect" the verb, not the noun "effect" )

What i said was: i don't believe it's wise for DEVS to cater the game toward lowest common denominator type players.

Instead, code rewards that encourage players to embark upon journeys and embrace challenges.

Of course, it's a sad sign-of-the-times that basic reading might be considered to be too much of a "challenge" in 2023 for certain "modern" humans.

48 minutes ago, JenaSalton said:

 Acting like they are somehow inferior to you because that's what they like isn't a good look.

ahh yes, the ever popular "deplorables" insult card.

It's a nice try, albeit cliche, but it doesn't apply here since  a) Wishing for players/humans to be better/smarter demonstrates my inherent faith in how superior  i believe ALL players can indeed be if given the opportunity ...and b)  i don't really care how i supposedly "look" on these random video game forums.

48 minutes ago, JenaSalton said:

But, implementing the button does enhance some players gaming experience.

You're twisting what i said, so i'll rewrite it for you.  What i exactly said was how that button ( or similar types of easymode warp clicks of "convenience" ) doesn't do anything to enhance the CONTENT or STORY itself.

i enjoy a good solid debate , but try not to misquote me when my actual quote is literally there in typed words above.

And, partially due to tone-interpreters & forum-moderators, it's important to choose words very carefully.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Nee-Elder

[VegaMist]

29 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

What i exactly said was how that button ( or similar types of easymode warp clicks of "convenience" ) doesn't do anything to enhance the CONTENT or STORY itself.

I personally disagree with this statement. I love this button and it does enhance story experience for me by getting me into the said story quicker (instead of mindlessly traveling from point A to point B for a gazillionth time). I also prefer logging out at a stronghold and, if I visit somewhere else (fleet for example), I can no longer use "Return to..." option. Having a quick travel link next to the mission allows me to proceed the story from where I left it frustration free.

[JenaSalton]

This will probably be my last post in this thread for at least a few days, because at you mentioned earlier, neither of us are likely to convince the other and this whole thing is something that frustrates me to the point where I realize it's time to take a step back. Maybe I'll re-engage when I'm less frustrated and maybe I won't, we'll see.

49 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

( btw, no big deal but the word you meant was "affect" the verb, not the noun "effect" )

I do appreciate this though. I know this, but somehow I still constantly get my affects and effects mixed up and I need to stop. It shouldn't be hard, but somehow it is.

 

49 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

You're twisting what i said, so i'll rewrite it for you.  What i exactly said was how that button ( or similar types of easymode warp clicks of "convenience" ) doesn't do anything to enhance the CONTENT or STORY itself.

i enjoy a good solid debate , but try not to misquote me when my actual quote is literally there in typed words above.

And, partially due to tone-interpreters & forum-moderators, it's important to choose words very carefully.

I also agree that it's important to choose words carefully and make sure your meaning is being properly conveyed. I wasn't trying to misquote you, but add on to your quote so it would read: "Implementing a quick 1-click warp button doesn't do anything to enhance the content/story itself but it does enhance the gaming experience of some players." Because I agree, the button doesn't add anything to the story (nor does it take anything aqay), however since it benefits some players in other ways, I think it's a good thing to have an opinion to use for players that want it.

 

[Nee-Elder]

2 hours ago, VegaMist said:

 (instead of mindlessly traveling from point A to point B for a gazillionth time).

Therein ^ lies your problem.  

But seriously, no worries you do you and To Each Their Own  yep.

2 hours ago, VegaMist said:

. I also prefer logging out at a stronghold and, if I visit somewhere else (fleet for example), I can no longer use "Return to..." option.

Having a quick travel link next to the mission allows me to proceed the story from where I left it

Yeah that's really a separate topic  though.

Not saying i disagree with you on it, just saying it's a separate/different situation ( and separate effect ) .

2 hours ago, JenaSalton said:

This will probably be my last post in this thread for at least a few days, because at you mentioned earlier, neither of us are likely to convince the other and this whole thing is something that frustrates me to the point where I realize it's time to take a step back.

Maybe I'll re-engage when I'm less frustrated and maybe I won't, we'll see.

i wouldn't lose too much forum-frustration over it tbqh.   It was just a semi hot-topic i saw the OP mention and in between PvP queues  i felt compelled to opine about.

SWG/sandbox  vs.  SWTOR/themepark  related  topics are usually pretty easy bait to get me going.

But again: i don't work on SWG anymore and i certainly don't code for SWTOR here, so i have absolute zero "power" to influence anyone nor anything.  No matter how much i climb atop my  /soapbox and rant about Free-to-PAY (micro-transactions) and Cartel Market business model and lack of real player Crafting and total neglect of GSF development, etc. etc. etc. etc..

Edited July 28, 2023 by Nee-Elder