An update on the development of SWTOR

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

On 7/5/2023 at 12:19 AM, xxSHOONYxx said:

Love the game for what it was at one point and all the times i spent on it and friends i made, and hate what it has been done to it and all the missed opportunities. Wish the devs the best, if somehow they can pull a swtor revival with less people than they had before it will be nothing short of a miracle

I think this encapsulates why a lot of us still stick around.  But those 'good old days', they been gone for quite sometime. 

How any business could not see the potential that lies in the Star Wars IP and the gold mind that it is, and the opportunities for ridiculous profits had they managed this game as that IP deserves is utterly staggering and totally dumbfounding.

But, at the end of the day, we still have to ask ourselves, with all this mismanagement, all the missed opportunities, and the total disregard for all the feedback that so many people have given to them here on the forums, how the hell are they still in business?

Thing is, we really don't know how many people play this game, we don't how much money they're actually making (and if people think they disclose the true amounts, they're living in a dream world.), but, apparently they're not doing all that that bad.

And yeah, maybe it's mostly because of the Cartel Market, but you really can't blame them for keeping that well stocked. They just care about the money, they don't care where it's coming from just as long as it keeps on coming.

And unlike most of us involved in these discussions, I think probably the majority of the player base are just total casuals, don't much care about raiding or PVP or spend most of their time playing end game. They just like playing the story content and playing dress up.

I think most of us here are in the minority. - I only play one character for the last 10 years, end game is all I do. Not to say I don't sometimes enjoy playing the new story stuff, but, quite honestly, as an old school Star Wars fan, most of the time I'm in dismay about how much Bioware doesn't get Star Wars.

As I've said countless times, my expectations are low, I'm not expecting any great changes, I don't think they'll pull off any miracles and turn things around. But, I do have a small amount of hope, that maybe, just maybe, if Broadsword does make a go at it, and they do do some new content, maybe some of those people over there remember what Star Wars is all about and maybe they'll show a bit more respect for the source of it.

[OlBuzzard]

9 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

I still don’t think the next few months will be long enough to see anything different for swtor than was already planned. We probably won’t see anything different till well after 7.4. Which if I had to guess, won’t be here anytime before November. Then we might see 7.4.1 mid December & then nothing till February. 

What I am hoping is the next PvP season will bring players back that have stopped playing since the last season ended. Those numbers will show us how the news of the transfer is playing out across the rest of the population. Because at the moment the average steam login players have dropped roughly 2200 people since the last season ended & the Broadsword announcement. If the numbers go back up to what they were last season, then we’ll get a representation of how the player base feels about this move. 
 

As a reference:

The peak steam logins mid PvP season was 12,172 & the average player numbers were 6,938.

Where as the current peak login numbers are 8,096 & the average player numbers are 4,741. 

Somehow, I think you are mistaking changes / affects that begin to indicate a favorable transformation in overall management with a more thorough impact of the overall (and more complete) change in almost every aspect of the game.  There are certain parts of the game that could receive almost immediate attention:
** BUG SMASHING
** VA Bloopers (see note)
** GS changes
There are some things that would need more attention to fix / grow:
** PvP areas
** PvE strategies (open group areas .. some that are solo only) 
** Gearing availability / restructuring

NO this list is not THAT kind of a list.  It IS intended to simply be points to ponder / consider / illustrate.  The more complete / complex the situation the longer it would take to complete necessary changes.  And (since there are fewer people actually working on each project) ... it will unquestionably take longer to complete those tasks.  

NO!  It's not an impossible task!  YES ... you are correct in that it will take time to complete ALL of it!  BUT ... it shouldn't take a year to make SOME of the kind of changes that will be noticeable.  I think we'll see THOSE KIND of changes sooner than you think.

[xxSHOONYxx]

2 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

 BUG SMASHING

If a bigger number of devs couldn't do it then chances are it wont be done with less.
Bug fixing is not easy as some think it is. More likely than not the first bugs were band aid fixed instead of an actual general bug fix so the code could be already sticked together with band aids or duck tape, and then it comes the second part that coding is in a way very "modular" in c++. 
A simple new function that is causing a bug has 6 lines of code total, but in those 6 lines it calls 2 previos written functions, and those 2 previos written functions call each 2 or 3 more previous functions and so on. So you can end up on those 6 lines of code it also depends on other 100 different functions. So to find a fix you need to go through the 101 functions and find (which is not easy either) where the issue is. And the difficulty doesn't stop there, because of his modular designe the code and functions are intertwined, so each of those 100 functions can be called again by other functions, so when you find where the issue is and fix it for your bug you were trying to fix, you now caused 10 other bugs in other parts of the game. 
Coding is not easy with so many lines of codes like an mmo has, especially if they fixed previos bug with band aid fixes, and most importantly, if you actually didn't write the code and someone else did because you may not know 100% what logic they used for it.
For a good bug smashing they would probably need to review the whole code and fix it while leaving instructions of the logic they used it to code so the devs that come behind will know how to work with it

Edited July 6, 2023 by xxSHOONYxx

[casirabit]

3 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

Somehow, I think you are mistaking changes / affects that begin to indicate a favorable transformation in overall management with a more thorough impact of the overall (and more complete) change in almost every aspect of the game.  There are certain parts of the game that could receive almost immediate attention:
** BUG SMASHING
** VA Bloopers (see note)
** GS changes
There are some things that would need more attention to fix / grow:
** PvP areas
** PvE strategies (open group areas .. some that are solo only) 
** Gearing availability / restructuring

NO this list is not THAT kind of a list.  It IS intended to simply be points to ponder / consider / illustrate.  The more complete / complex the situation the longer it would take to complete necessary changes.  And (since there are fewer people actually working on each project) ... it will unquestionably take longer to complete those tasks.  

NO!  It's not an impossible task!  YES ... you are correct in that it will take time to complete ALL of it!  BUT ... it shouldn't take a year to make SOME of the kind of changes that will be noticeable.  I think we'll see THOSE KIND of changes sooner than you think.

They really do not have a year to make any noticeable changes.  If they do not make noticeable changes in the next few months it may be too late. (noticed I said may be) For me, it is almost too late as I am really getting further and further into FFXIV

[OlBuzzard]

1 hour ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

If a bigger number of devs couldn't do it then chances are it wont be done with less.
Bug fixing is not easy as some think it is. More likely than not the first bugs were band aid fixed instead of an actual general bug fix so the code could be already sticked together with band aids or duck tape, and then it comes the second part that coding is in a way very "modular" in c++. 
A simple new function that is causing a bug has 6 lines of code total, but in those 6 lines it calls 2 previos written functions, and those 2 previos written functions call each 2 or 3 more previous functions and so on. So you can end up on those 6 lines of code it also depends on other 100 different functions. So to find a fix you need to go through the 101 functions and find (which is not easy either) where the issue is. And the difficulty doesn't stop there, because of his modular designe the code and functions are intertwined, so each of those 100 functions can be called again by other functions, so when you find where the issue is and fix it for your bug you were trying to fix, you now caused 10 other bugs in other parts of the game. 
Coding is not easy with so many lines of codes like an mmo has, especially if they fixed previos bug with band aid fixes, and most importantly, if you actually didn't write the code and someone else did because you may not know 100% what logic they used for it.
For a good bug smashing they would probably need to review the whole code and fix it while leaving instructions of the logic they used it to code so the devs that come behind will know how to work with it

I agree completely ... AND (believe it or not) .. I do understand what you are driving at.   That being said:  I can't think of any area that would demonstrate a more positive impact to the community any more than this one item.  No that does not mean fix ALL at one time.  Please believe me when I tell you that I know that this one item is time consuming.  I think that most of us get that part.  I also see it as something that could use a LOT of love right now!

I hope this makes sense.

[OlBuzzard]

1 minute ago, casirabit said:

They really do not have a year to make any noticeable changes.  If they do not make noticeable changes in the next few months it may be too late. (noticed I said may be) For me, it is almost too late as I am really getting further and further into FFXIV

Making noticeable POSITIVE changes (though not easy) is something that is a must.  (Like it or not).  Please note that positive noticeable changes does NOT mean a complet(ed) game overhaul.  There is a such thing as unrealistic expectations.  

I guess for me .. the only real reason I'm still actively engaged in this thread is that "last ditch effort" on my part.  IN the end if it is necessary to walk away ... then so be it!  NO ... it won't be a glad, happy day ... but it will be one with unquestionable clarity.  

[Traceguy]

19 hours ago, septru said:

And what's even funnier is that when BioWare inevitably fails to deliver on their big promises, 

Considering Bioware doesn't own SWTOR anymore, it's non debatable whether or not Bioware will fail to deliver 7.4 or 7.5. They won't. They can't.

 

[Traceguy]

2 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

If a bigger number of devs couldn't do it then chances are it wont be done with less.

Who said they have a bigger number of devs? It's my understanding that Bioware was stealing money and resources for other games. Probably the #1 prime reason EA took the game away from them. The devs transferring are transferring for a reason. They are the only ones who truly make a difference in making SWTOR

Edited July 6, 2023 by Traceguy

[felleto]

26 minutes ago, Traceguy said:

Who said they have a bigger number of devs? It's my understanding that Bioware was stealing money and resources for other games. Probably the #1 prime reason EA took the game away from them. The devs transferring are transferring for a reason. They are the only ones who truly make a difference in making SWTOR

If you think about it not a lot will change. The only thing that will change is Bioware not being the current developer, but EA will continue to be the big cheese, the devs will for the most part stay the same (fewer devs even). I think the assumption that Bioware was draining resources is crazy. EA called the shots and will continue to call the shots, but now we have fewer people working on the game. I truly hope that I'm completely wrong and we are entering a new and better age for swtor, though.

[Whykara]

2 hours ago, felleto said:

I think the assumption that Bioware was draining resources is crazy.

It's really not. It's confirmed they did. Anthem used SWTOR's resources and devs. ME Andromeda did as well. Chris Schmidt confirmed that the new Mass Effect and Dragon Age also did. It's not a conspiracy theory. SWTOR is the only game Bioware has been making money off for years now.

[FlameYOL]

30 minutes ago, Whykara said:

It's really not. It's confirmed they did. Anthem used SWTOR's resources and devs. ME Andromeda did as well. Chris Schmidt confirmed that the new Mass Effect and Dragon Age also did. It's not a conspiracy theory. SWTOR is the only game Bioware has been making money off for years now.

Which really makes me wonder if this switch is based on the team itself wanting to move out, Chris mentioned how the team always felt sidelined.

[TrixxieTriss]

8 hours ago, OlBuzzard said:

YES ... you are correct in that it will take time to complete ALL of it!  BUT ... it shouldn't take a year to make SOME of the kind of changes that will be noticeable.  I think we'll see THOSE KIND of changes sooner than you think

No, it shouldn’t, you’re right.
But you and I have been calling for some of these changes for years. I just don’t see Broadsword implementing them until the current dev plans for 7.4 are completed. That is unless they already had it on the road map. 

[OlBuzzard]

13 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

No, it shouldn’t, you’re right.
But you and I have been calling for some of these changes for years. I just don’t see Broadsword implementing them until the current dev plans for 7.4 are completed. That is unless they already had it on the road map. 

YUP!  BINGO!!

 

😉

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by OlBuzzard

[felleto]

Can't breathe... too much copium... Tell Lana she looked great after her update... cof cof... and tell Theron I never liked him... 

X _ X

[Joonbeams]

I stopped playing a while ago, but kept the sub active as some kind of carrot to the devs to keep working on this. I've been off enjoying many other games, and really haven't looked back. This was my first MMO, but I've since been loving FFXIV and, to a lesser extent, ESO. Also a slew of single-player games. And so much has changed in my life since I first logged in there. Still, there has never been anything as magical as SWTOR was for me - just a magical moment in time that's probably not reproducible. I'll always cherish that.

Now, I have to decide whether I want to --on principle -- continue to pay AAA prices for a maintenance mode game that doesn't even support the devs I've grown with all these years. I have 10 days to decide...

[DIVAvonFarstar]

7 hours ago, Whykara said:

It's really not. It's confirmed they did. Anthem used SWTOR's resources and devs. ME Andromeda did as well. Chris Schmidt confirmed that the new Mass Effect and Dragon Age also did. It's not a conspiracy theory. SWTOR is the only game Bioware has been making money off for years now.

The fact that a company uses resources from product A during its product life cycle to develop a product successor is a completely normal process in business administration. That's not a waste.

[Whykara]

1 hour ago, DIVAvonFarstar said:

The fact that a company uses resources from product A during its product life cycle to develop a product successor is a completely normal process in business administration. That's not a waste.

You would have a point if it also happened the other way around. If they also pulled devs and money from, say, DA:I to help on SWTOR. They did not. It's always been a one-way-street. The devs they assigned to Anthem were never even assigned back to SWTOR for example. SWTOR has been bled dry for years. 

We can't know why EA took the game away from BioWare, but we can assume that it had something to with the gross mismanagement of SWTOR. 

[DIVAvonFarstar]

51 minutes ago, Whykara said:

You would have a point if it also happened the other way around. If they also pulled devs and money from, say, DA:I to help on SWTOR. They did not. It's always been a one-way-street. The devs they assigned to Anthem were never even assigned back to SWTOR for example. SWTOR has been bled dry for years. 

We can't know why EA took the game away from BioWare, but we can assume that it had something to with the gross mismanagement of SWTOR. 

But first you have to take a closer look at the product life cycles of the various products. So there is no way around it, with the help of a portfolio analysis, first work out whether products are "question marks, stars, cash cows, poor dogs", and then it becomes clear why the flow of resources is taking place as it is.

[Shayddow]

Right now it's dark. It is 4 AM. So it's dark. The sky isn't blue at night. 😞

 

[OlBuzzard]

IMO ... it would be funnier than ever if the group now working on SWTOR were about to pull a FFXIV ... by that I mean .. Knowing just how much trouble SWTOR has been in for a while now ... the game as a whole has just been limping along while another group has been laying a foundation for a real, genuine actual X-Pack!  I don't mean another chapter in the ongoing saga ... I mean the genuine article!  If you recall FFXIV was a bust at first ... then they had to make a decision on what to do with the game.

Yeah ... I know that's a big reach.. BUT to me it would be just THAT funny.  And let's face it.  I doubt we know a fraction of the truth of what has been going on internally with SWTOR.  I definitely get the impression that most of the profit generated from this game went elsewhere.  

I get it ... speculation at best.  But still.  If I were a part of the team reading some of this I'm not so sure whether I'd be laughing my ... head off or crying my eyes out!

Soooo ... here's to the team that's coming to work every day trying to make the best of what they have to work with.

If that means I'm taking too much hopium ...  then I guess that's where I'm at.  

The last I checked ...  life is what you make of it!  And if you want to wait around for things to get good before you try to enjoy it ... some folks are in for one big disappointment!

Fish are active this week!  And the possibilities of what is out there are just too good to pass up!

Edited July 7, 2023 by OlBuzzard
syntax ... error !!

[Balameb]

5 hours ago, Whykara said:

The devs they assigned to Anthem were never even assigned back to SWTOR for example

Are you sure?

When broadsword news first landed and we got info on Dev numbers, we were all surprised by how big SWTOR dev team actually was before moving.

Also, Chris was one that came back, likely was not the only one.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

20 minutes ago, Balameb said:

Are you sure?

When broadsword news first landed and we got info on Dev numbers, we were all surprised by how big SWTOR dev team actually was before moving.

Also, Chris was one that came back, likely was not the only one.

I do recall that and there was a lot of backlash over Anthem on the Forums for all the resources (employees/money) that were being taken from SWTOR and assigned to Anthem).

A lot of people on these forums let the devs know that they were boycotting Anthem over it and telling others not to play it because of that.

I'm sure you could dig up some of those posts from back than with search.

Chris was the only one that I can recall ever hearing about coming back. I suppose it's possible others did and I just didn't hear about it.

Edited July 7, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Balameb]

4 minutes ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

I do recall that and there was a lot of backlash over Anthem on the Forums for all the resources (employees/money) that were being taken from SWTOR and assigned to Anthem).

A lot of people on these forums let the devs know that they were boycotting Anthem over it and telling others not to play it because of that.

I'm sure you could dig up some of those posts from back than with search.

Chris was the only one that I can recall ever hearing about coming back. I suppose it's possible others did and I just didn't hear about it.

I remember that. BW has done pretty bad sh*t over the years to SWTOR.

I just think that it would be rare for Chris to be the only one to return, let's remember that we only know very few of the actual devs.

 

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

2 hours ago, Balameb said:

I remember that. BW has done pretty bad sh*t over the years to SWTOR.

I just think that it would be rare for Chris to be the only one to return, let's remember that we only know very few of the actual devs.

No arguing that logic.

Both are very valid points.

[Nee-Elder]

1 hour ago, WayOfTheWarriorx said:

No arguing that logic.

*channels Moff Tarkin voice*: Enough of this bickering!

Meanwhile u guys are missing a possible  tone-shift ( and information freedom ) by the very actual DEV  himself here:  https://forums.swtor.com/topic/929980-basilisk-war-droid-spoiler-alert/?do=findComment&comment=9768668  ...and also even HERE:  https://forums.swtor.com/topic/926404-regal-apparel-mini-skirt-now-shows-leggins-ingame/?do=findComment&comment=9768682

Edited July 7, 2023 by Nee-Elder
Reason: not one but TWO posts by Eric Musco today?!?!!?