An update on the development of SWTOR

[bahramnima]

it is the matter of quality and quantity of content.

as for quantity: with bioware we were getting one major content update per year, even the recent 7.3 is pretty small.

as for quality: it is actually good specially with voice acting cut scenes and conversation you have with your team which develop their character and player character because of light vs dark choice. it is short but it is fun just like sex lol.

if it goes to broadsword both quality and quantity of content will drop and that is what i am afraid of and that is why i am feeling really bad considering how much i love swtor.

gw2 is the only mmo that keeps me in this genre and mmo world now, after gw2 (if there is not going to be gw3) i will kiss mmo world goodbye and go back to single player games.

[Tashia]

ok -- I've read through a fair portion of this thread -- with the exception of the AI in real life stuff -- sorry, get enough of that subject in the news ....

 

But ..  I have come to an alternative thought here for the game --- hear me out before you flame me, ok ?

BioWare as we all know, ended KoTOR with a REAL ending -- did it not ?  So .. what's to prevent them from giving 

SWtOR a REAL ending to its story --

Keith has already said that there is more content ( no reason I shouldn't believe him) however he didn't say when it would be released ... by either EA /BW or Broadsword ....  so we don't know ..

we have all wanted a REAL ending --- tying up all the little threads in the game -- at least I always hoped we'd get a decent ending to the STORY as  KotOR did ...  so why not ?

 

here's my thought -- after going through this last part -- twice -- I suddenly had a feeling it's leading up to a real ending ....

I don't know what triggered it -- something Malgus said -- or The Three said, or something ...  but I suddenly felt it was leading

up to a very big part of the story --   The End (as of the story, not the game itself ) 

so -- now I wouldn't be surprised if BioWare has written the last part of the whole thing .. it's "in the can" as they say in the business

and will be given to Broadsword to release and finish the story -- then and only then will they put it in MM , which isn't so bad if this is true -- I really hope it is -- we've have our stories finished (and I have a theory on that too, but not going to tell you )

I want an ending, the game story deserves an ending -- KotOR got one -- this game's story is good enough to get one too

as Picard used to say, "make it so" ...  please 

 

also --- for some weird reason, this whole new story update feels like one of those typical "last episode of  the last season"

of a TV show --  I don't know why -- that talk with The Three was really heavy content wise, we / I just don't understand it yet  

 

 

 

[meddani]

On 6/14/2023 at 1:55 AM, jedimasterjac said:

I feel like you can trace all the stages of grief on this forum thread. 

lmao this. the swtor twitter account doesn't even adress the dev change and i'm sure if IGN (i think it was them) didn't leak the story you wouldn't hear that even here on this forum.

[jedimasterjac]

While I don’t think it’s impossible for the game to get an “ending,” I think the most on-brand and most likely scenario is a slow, sad petering out. 

[JayForerunner]

15 hours ago, bahramnima said:

...It is short but it is fun just like sex lol.

Don't get me started.

[FlameYOL]

5 hours ago, jedimasterjac said:

While I don’t think it’s impossible for the game to get an “ending,” I think the most on-brand and most likely scenario is a slow, sad petering out. 

I fear 7.4 will be the last story update we get, and we'll end up with a KOTOR II situation where the game ends of a cliffhanger. Except this time we won't even have any form of resolution, love or hate the Revan novel it at least answers the question of "what happened after KOTOR II?". I fear we won't get the answer of "what happens after 7.4?"

[krackcommando]

17 hours ago, bahramnima said:

it is actually good specially with voice acting cut scenes and conversation you have with your team which develop their character and player character because of light vs dark choice. it is short but it is fun just like sex lol.

I'm only quoting this b/c it's one of many. so what I say isn't particular to this one person's post, but here it is...

What in the holy hell makes an MMO RPG content acceptable when it is single player story, regardless of how long or short that story is?

Dribbling out story, whether is 1 "chapter" per week or per month or per year...dribbling out single player story advancement is neither quality nor quantity content for an MMO. I know in the above case, the person was talking about production values, and BW conversations/cut scenes are famously high on production value. but this is an M. M. O. not KoTOR 3. they need to churn out new activities...new repeatable...activities. raids. FPs. seasons. prizes.

historically, BW has mismanaged this end game aspect of their MMO worse than any game I have ever played. just awful. the minimal stuff they've done for 7.2 and 7.3 is like a whirlwind of activity given the precedent they've set. I cringe at past BW practices of going entire xpacks without a raid. constantly shoveling 10-years-old content toward you with new rewards. truly awful. by their standards, though, 7.2 and 7.3 are a carnival of new content. I hesitate to call pvp seasons "new" content, but they did create new rewards, and there's a new FP in 7.3. so...yeah. big time improvement considering what came out with the 10th anniversary and prior to that. 😄

anyway, the BW bar for new content is so incredibly low (production values aside), I find it difficult to imagine anyone doing less without going pure maintenance mode.

[bahramnima]

4 hours ago, krackcommando said:

I'm only quoting this b/c it's one of many. so what I say isn't particular to this one person's post, but here it is...

What in the holy hell makes an MMO RPG content acceptable when it is single player story, regardless of how long or short that story is?

Dribbling out story, whether is 1 "chapter" per week or per month or per year...dribbling out single player story advancement is neither quality nor quantity content for an MMO. I know in the above case, the person was talking about production values, and BW conversations/cut scenes are famously high on production value. but this is an M. M. O. not KoTOR 3. they need to churn out new activities...new repeatable...activities. raids. FPs. seasons. prizes.

historically, BW has mismanaged this end game aspect of their MMO worse than any game I have ever played. just awful. the minimal stuff they've done for 7.2 and 7.3 is like a whirlwind of activity given the precedent they've set. I cringe at past BW practices of going entire xpacks without a raid. constantly shoveling 10-years-old content toward you with new rewards. truly awful. by their standards, though, 7.2 and 7.3 are a carnival of new content. I hesitate to call pvp seasons "new" content, but they did create new rewards, and there's a new FP in 7.3. so...yeah. big time improvement considering what came out with the 10th anniversary and prior to that. 😄

anyway, the BW bar for new content is so incredibly low (production values aside), I find it difficult to imagine anyone doing less without going pure maintenance mode.

if you think swtor is more like single player game than mmo ( which is true by the way) why are you subscribed to swtor??

you complain about lack of mmo content but you are still here.

why are you playing single player game masquerading as mmo ??

what keeps you here??

[krackcommando]

9 hours ago, bahramnima said:

if you think swtor is more like single player game than mmo ( which is true by the way) why are you subscribed to swtor??

you complain about lack of mmo content but you are still here.

why are you playing single player game masquerading as mmo ??

what keeps you here??

pvp. which is decidedly not single player and does not require new maps (FPs or Raids). (edit: and pvp is terrible too...if you want to play the game for it's unique WZs. but it's fine if you just want to fight to the death with blasters and light sabers).

it's also star wars.

and I can show up to play through 60 minutes of story every 2 years whenever. (edit: I haven't played story since the onderon stuff? it's just not good. recycling Revan and Malgus is not good. the new characters have no character. even their sculpts/design look inferior to stuff from 2011)

aaaaand I was unsubbed for 2 years until 7.2 (a pvp xpack) dropped.

aaaand I don't even need to be subbed now to do so; I just subbed to play forum pvp (which we're doing right now - "we" = everyone not just you and I).

but as for being an MMO RPG? yeah. this game is garbage. kind of an insult to the genre. no offense (should anyone here find their personal identity in the game - it's not unusual amongst fans of such IPs). it's just not really an MMO, which is a bummer. b/c as a sequel to KoTOR, it's garbage (story after 1.0 is paper thin, disjointed between xpacks, and not at all worth maintaining a subscription vs. subbing for 1 month every 2 years). iunno man. these are facts insofar as any aesthetic judgment can ever be a "fact." /shrug.

edit: if I were only interested in single player story, I highly recommend playing every single class story from 1.x, and the Eternal Empire xpacks (only once and as a force user). everything else is disposable or straight trash. the companion system is great, but their stories are trash after 1.x as well. they're just cosmetics after 1.x.

Edited June 16, 2023 by krackcommando
what's gud

[Ardrossan]

5 hours ago, krackcommando said:

but as for being an MMO RPG? yeah. this game is garbage. kind of an insult to the genre. no offense (should anyone here find their personal identity in the game - it's not unusual amongst fans of such IPs). it's just not really an MMO, which is a bummer. b/c as a sequel to KoTOR, it's garbage (story after 1.0 is paper thin, disjointed between xpacks, and not at all worth maintaining a subscription vs. subbing for 1 month every 2 years). iunno man. these are facts insofar as any aesthetic judgment can ever be a "fact." /shrug.

idk how the writers would have been able to do a good job on a kotor3 storyline no matter what they did. I've seen some versions floating around that kinda sound like a JK+ storyline with Kira and Scourge and a few comps from other class stories. It's okay as a concept but...

Kotor1 was an okay, very wholesome bioware game with a gimmicky plot twist. Kotor2 was a broken, rushed mess, the restored content mod made the story great (LP for anyone interested, it's brilliant) but the two games didn't fit together very well which is one reason the Revan novel was so bad.

If Obsidian had made this game as a single player RPG, (and not bungled it) we might have gotten Kotor2.5 Now With Extra Ayn Rand Kreia Philosophy. If Bioware had been able to do the single player RPG they originally wanted, it probably would have felt closer to Kotor1. Instead we got...this. Which is fine but feels completely disjointed compared to the first two games.   

It's the same with the upcoming mass effect game. People expecting it to feel remotely close to the original trilogy are in for a shock. They should be playing this game or Andromeda to get a better sense of what it will actually look like.

[Samcuu]

The vanilla stories in this game are some of the best stories out there and blow away most star wars games. The expansions are a little mediocre for me, and a lot left to be desired as an mmo. I've never been a fan of theme park mmos because they rely upon constant content to be released. Sand box mmos need content but can get by because the community usually has more tools to kinda create their own content. That's where swtor messed up from the start imo. I was hoping for a more immersive experience similar to swg. However I'll still put Swtor ahead of swg in the mmo category because the combat is so much better than the s show which was swg. Combat in that game was down horrendous. 

[DIVAvonFarstar]

5 hours ago, Samcuu said:

However I'll still put Swtor ahead of swg in the mmo category because the combat is so much better than the s show which was swg. Combat in that game was down horrendous. 

Star Wars Galaxies is now 20 years old and had to run on significantly weaker hardware, which inevitably leads to limitations in what is feasible. Star Wars Galaxies: Jump to Lightspeed is still the much better space combat, Space PvE and PvP here in SWTOR are real junk in direct comparison.
From a personal point of view, it's easy to conclude that Galaxies is the better game, it just depends on your gameplay priorities.

Edited June 17, 2023 by DIVAvonFarstar

[Pirana]

5 hours ago, Samcuu said:

The vanilla stories in this game are some of the best stories out there and blow away most star wars games. The expansions are a little mediocre for me, and a lot left to be desired as an mmo. I've never been a fan of theme park mmos because they rely upon constant content to be released. Sand box mmos need content but can get by because the community usually has more tools to kinda create their own content. That's where swtor messed up from the start imo. I was hoping for a more immersive experience similar to swg. However I'll still put Swtor ahead of swg in the mmo category because the combat is so much better than the s show which was swg. Combat in that game was down horrendous. 

The story and combat animations here are very good, not a huge fan of tab targeting, I prefer action combat, but the team here got it right with their tab targeting. SWG's combat, the NGE is far superior to the original game, which I'm still baffled at how people think that iteration of the game was any good to begin with. Take the rose tinted glasses off, their lack of content and combat was terrible. lol 

When this game first launched, a number of us thought both games could coexist, it was discussed tirelessly on both forums, but obviously LA had made up their mind. Financially, it's a win for this game, but in the end, SWG and their emulators will be the ones left standing. 

[Nee-Elder]

54 minutes ago, Pirana said:

, the NGE is far superior to the original game, which I'm still baffled at how people think that iteration of the game was any good to begin with. Take the rose tinted glasses off, their lack of content and combat was terrible.

It's not about "rose tinted glasses" .  It's about a totally different style of MMO's and vastly different type of PLAYERS back then ( 20 years ago ) .

The  1st iteration of NGE was absolutely  terrible & pathetic.  ( hyperfast 'Benny Hill' clickfest garbage )

The NGE-2 , however, was very tolerable.

The CU  was actually very similar to how original SWTOR combat felt ( aside from the physics & such ) .

As for SWG's beginning Pre-cu ...well... it was again a different time & speed of player-gamers back then.  But imho, the 'RPG queue' purity and Chess-like anticiptation/calculation of moves  was very fun/interesting; ableit  "slower" yes.

Regarding *conent* , i must also disagree with you, since you totally miss ( or ignore ) the whole point of  'sandbox vs. theme-park' .  As in, SWTOR content is solid & well-written ( mostly ) but it's bound by the creation of another entity and therefore won't ever satisfy long term.   Hence why SWTOR lost so many $ubs within first few months and then even now BioWare can't ever keep up with player insatiable need for more more more content faster faster faster!!!!!

Conversely, SWG's  original  content was mostly OUR own personal imaginations as players.  ( aka "The Greatest Saga Ever Told: Yours"   ) -- Later on, during CU and then subsequently with NGE-2 era,  SOE did a better job of implementing more theme-park type content to augment our own self-generated activities & adventures.  But either way, SWG never got boring ( in my opinion ) because  sandbox + imagination = limitless.

Plus,  JTL Space ( still superior to SWTOR's GSF ) remained essentially the same  thoughout all  eras of ground combat.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Nee-Elder
Reason: if GSF had *joystick support* and open space zones + PVE missions, it might approach JTL. Maybe.

[Khoxion]

6 hours ago, Samcuu said:

I've never been a fan of theme park mmos because they rely upon constant content to be released. Sand box mmos need content but can get by because the community usually has more tools to kinda create their own content.

Besides a potential low risk decision making of the suits based on all kinds of fallacies, the only other explanation i have for the lack of good sandbox games is that they don't fit to the skill- and mindset of most writers in game development. It seems like they often see themselves more like authors of a book and the players as readers. A sandbox design probably fundamentally contradicts how they see themselves. Like, there are "artists" and there is the rest.
No offense to anyone, but maybe most of them also lack the necessary mental skills to develop functioning narrative systems that allow for maximum player agency. They probably would have to think more like a skilled programmer.

There are good sandbox games out there (eg Kenshi and Rimworld), but for some reason, they seem to be only possible in low budget/indy game development.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E4nKWxSG8o

[Pirana]

26 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

It's not about "rose tinted glasses" .  It's about a totally different style of MMO's and vastly different type of PLAYERS back then ( 20 years ago ) .

The  1st iteration of NGE was absolutely  terrible & pathetic.  ( hyperfast 'Benny Hill' clickfest garbage )

The NGE-2 , however, was very tolerable.

The CU  was actually very similar to how original SWTOR combat felt ( aside from the physics & such ) .

As for SWG's beginning Pre-cu ...well... it was again a different time & speed of player-gamers back then.  But imho, the 'RPG queue' purity and Chess-like anticiptation/calculation of moves  was very fun/interesting; ableit  "slower" yes.

Regarding *conent* , i must also disagree with you, since you totally miss ( or ignore ) the whole point of  'sandbox vs. theme-park' .  As in, SWTOR content is solid & well-written ( mostly ) but it's bound by the creation of another entity and therefore won't ever satisfy long term.   Hence why SWTOR lost so many $ubs within first few months and then even now BioWare can't ever keep up with player insatiable need for more more more content faster faster faster!!!!!

Conversely, SWG's  original  content was mostly OUR own personal imaginations as players.  ( aka "The Greatest Saga Ever Told: Yours"   ) -- Later on, during CU and then subsequently with NGE-2 era,  SOE did a better job of implementing more theme-park type content to augment our own self-generated activities & adventures.  But either way, SWG never got boring ( in my opinion ) because  sandbox + imagination = limitless.

Plus,  JTL Space ( still superior to SWTOR's GSF ) remained essentially the same  thoughout all  eras of ground combat.

Of course it's about completely different playstyles, both games are entirely different, thank you for pointing out the obvious. lol Regarding the rose tinted glasses, yes that's exactly what it is. People often refer to that game as this great game, which is was not, notably the first iteration of the game, the combat was nothing short of terrible. NGE's combat is superior in every way. CU, don't know, never played it, so I won't comment on it. There's a reason SWG was shut down, whether it was this game releasing or the questionable and often poor decisions SOE made, notably their lack of end game content, easy to exploit mechanics and quite simply, very little to do. Either way, SWG was shutdown for a good reason and it was mostly due to it being open world.

JTL is absolutely superior, still is. Space here, similar to SWG was implemented after launch, how both Star Wars games thought it was a good idea to release the games without space is nothing short of baffling, other than both games being rushed to launch. 

Regarding content, nothing was missed, sandbox v themepark are certainly different games, so no, nothing was ignored, just not elaborated on, Sandbox games rarely work in today's world, people want things fast and don't want to create their own content, which is another reason SWG failed, similar to how NW is failing, sandbox gameplay is a relic, themepark will win every time in the MMO world.

[Nee-Elder]

46 minutes ago, Pirana said:

 People often refer to that game as this great game, which is was not, notably the first iteration of the game, the combat was nothing short of terrible. NGE's combat is superior in every way.

That is your opinion.  Nothing more.

And the fact that you never even played CU era, combined with how you've said twice now that NGE combat was "superior" , is all i need to know about your credibility on the subject.

I eventually worked with SWG, as QA & basic coder, and even had the brief honor of chatting w/  Mr. Raph Koster ( the architect ) himself, so let's just say my perspective is a bit more informed.  Consequently, it wouldn't even be fun to debate you any further since it would be like arguing with the uneducated.

Anyone who thinks SWG had "nothing to do"  is either severly lacking in basic human imagination or never bothered to explore & unlock all the many layers-of-secrets SWG had to offer. ( even during Pre-cu era )

Besides which,  it's way off-topic  within this thread.  Nice bait though.  Any mention of SWG usually gets me going.  Once.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Nee-Elder

[Pirana]

14 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

That is your opinion.  Nothing more.

And the fact that you never even played CU era, combined with how you've said twice now that NGE combat was "superior" , is all i need to know about your credibility on the subject.

I eventually worked with SWG, as QA & basic coder, and even had the brief honor of chatting w/  Mr. Raph Koster ( the architect ) himself, so let's just say my perspective is a bit more informed.  Consequently, it wouldn't even be fun to debate you any further since it would be like arguing with the uneducated.

Anyone who thinks SWG had "nothing to do"  is either severly lacking in basic human imagination or never bothered to explore & unlock all the many layers-of-secrets SWG had to offer. ( even during Pre-cu era )

Besides which,  it's way off-topic  within this thread.  Nice bait though.  Any mention of SWG usually gets me going.  Once.

You got something correct, it is my opinion, and my opinion is also inline with why the game was closed, it's open world. Koster and Vogel both had decent concepts, but that's all they were. As far as nothing to do, yeah, the game had very little end game that pertains to what modern MMO players are desirous of, not open world nonsense. It's a huge reason why SWTOR has persisted longer, granted the emulators will last longer than this game, but staff, such as the ones over at Legends, not only have improved on what SWG started, but created far superior end game content than what SOE did.

[TonyTricicolo]

Ooh, I get aroused any time anyone mentions SWG! Rose colored glasses and all, Pre Cu was the best game I ever played. Why? Choices! Freedom to wander, freedom to make my own character. Sure the grind was intense but worth it. The worst thing that happened was the NGE. Why? It took away choices and made every thing streamlined. It catered to the casual player and it gave anyone and everyone Jedi. Not only that, SOE wanted to compete with WoW.  I'll give credit to where it was due and JTL and ROTW expansions were rather good. I could go on and on. That said, as much as I'd sell my soul for a SWG Redux that time has passed and given the current state of instant gratification generation of players I doubt it would be as popular as it was. We're all spoiled. There was a time where you'd sit for a good 20mins waiting for the next shuttle to arrive to go from Mos Eisley to Wayfar. You'd meet people. Learn languages and skills off them and make friends. Now we just Quick Travel. There's very little social interaction in todays game.  It's convenient, sure but it's also isolating. We used to go to cantinas and med centers to get buffs from other players, now every class is self sufficient. Is it better? Yes, No? Do I want to wait 20mins to change locations? F no! 

My ideal game would be Open World SWG Pre CU skill trees, crafting, and JTL, Swtor cutscenes, SW Jedi navigation and next gen graphics.

[jedimasterjac]

Sometimes I hear all these cool things about SWG, so I boot up a swgwmu server and then I spend about an hour auto running across a mostly-empty map to get to a nest of dune beetles that proceed to kill me nearly instantly. 
 

At least NGE has more interesting combat and is more engaging,  ur it’s still dull compared to virtually every single mmo competitor. 
 

The one aspect I appreciate is social and community - having to get buffs from doctors in medbays and entertainers in cantinas is cool. But then again, those players are AFK and running macros, and what does it say that the most interesting part of the game is automated?

[Pirana]

Pretty much, both games are entirely different.

When MMO's started, the open world playstyle was fine, but gaming has evolved, it's why SWG began changing their own game, including introducing trinity style dungeons where a tank could be used, including a jewelry set with a taunt. Their open world concept was no longer selling, and by the time they realized it, it was too late, the damage had been done. People were leaving the game long before CU or NGE hit, sure WoW had something to do with it, but for most, the game no longer had any appeal. There are interviews out there where SOE mentions they didn't have a choice but to change the game. If a product is no longer selling, you change the product. If SWG's first couple of iterations were successful, they wouldn't have changed things, it would have remained the same, not complete combat overhauls with added content that didn't revolve around farming lairs for skill points. 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Pirana

[DIVAvonFarstar]

4 hours ago, Pirana said:

 It's a huge reason why SWTOR has persisted longer, granted the emulators will last longer than this game, but staff, such as the ones over at Legends, not only have improved on what SWG started, but created far superior end game content than what SOE did.

This comparison is an unfair one, as Galaxies only existed from June 2003 - December 2011. SWTOR launched in December 2011 and is still current, so the SWTOR developers had much more time to create content.

[jedimasterjac]

11 minutes ago, DIVAvonFarstar said:

This comparison is an unfair one, as Galaxies only existed from June 2003 - December 2011. SWTOR launched in December 2011 and is still current, so the SWTOR developers had much more time to create content.

They’re talking about SWG legends, not SWTOR

[Ardrossan]

4 hours ago, jedimasterjac said:

Sometimes I hear all these cool things about SWG, so I boot up a swgwmu server and then I spend about an hour auto running across a mostly-empty map to get to a nest of dune beetles that proceed to kill me nearly instantly. 
 

At least NGE has more interesting combat and is more engaging,  ur it’s still dull compared to virtually every single mmo competitor. 
 

The one aspect I appreciate is social and community - having to get buffs from doctors in medbays and entertainers in cantinas is cool. But then again, those players are AFK and running macros, and what does it say that the most interesting part of the game is automated?

There is thankfully less of it nowadays than earlier in this game's existence when the SWG fans were furious that this game and this game alone killed their precious SWG and not all the constant problems that seemed to be associated from it, not just with the devs but also that it seemed to only appeal to a tiny fraction of gamers. 

I never played the game, but when I read the descriptions from the actual fans, like the ones on this page, I think "wow that would suck". It's also telling that the same people who loved SWG loved KoTFE too . It is indeed, as one poster said, a matter of opinion, or rather, a matter of taste 

Edited June 17, 2023 by Ardrossan

[jedimasterjac]

10 minutes ago, Ardrossan said:

I never played the game, but when I read the descriptions from the actual fans, like the ones on this page, I think "wow that would suck".

It's telling to me that:

1. Multiboxing isn't just allowed but encouraged

2. Most players automate and macro literally every aspect of gameplay they can

3. The most popular servers, after the initial wave, have all made substantial changes to the game.