Make the game harder during class stories

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

8 hours ago, Diamaht said:

I can tell you first hand that none of that is true.  We've happily provided references and examples.

Diamaht, can you please re-link the posts where you provided evidence that the reason alot of people have left the game isn't because of anything DWHO said, but is because the kiddy-pool, I mean... the vanilla story line is too easy please?  You said ' you know first hand'. Barring a crystal ball I can only assume you are an employee of Bioware now and that's how you know first hand. You really should have mentioned that, now all us 'gate-keepers' feel like asses.

I honestly don't recall seeing any references and examples put forth supporting that contention. I may have just have missed all of that somehow and I don't want to be accused of ignoring evidence that supports the opposite claim to mine.

My crystal ball is in the shop for repairs at the moment and Gandalf 🧙‍♂️ is out of town so I'm riding blind over here so linking that evidence you said you provided and examples would be a big help.

  

9 hours ago, Diamaht said:

Also, you realize that you are reduced to using the hated (by most of you) 7.0 to attempt to salvge your argument? That's amusing and ironic.

So's the quote in your signature.

"If I am wise it is because I know that I know nothing "

Edited May 31, 2023 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Toraak]

7 hours ago, Diamaht said:

 

So you're argument now, if I'm understanding correctly, is that millions of theme park mmo player's:

Number 1: got confused and thought this heavily marketed theme park mmo was actually going to be open world when they logged in.

Number 2: got confused and thought this heavily marketed theme park mmo was actually going to be a single player rpg when they logged in.

This is what we are saying?

You're going to need a second wall, unless your excuses and rationalizations can stick to each other, you're running out of room. 

Your assuming they came for the MMO aspect. Many came for the Kotor reason, and not because of Themepark MMO. They came because it was Star Wars. Not everyone came to this game because it was an MMO

[casirabit]

19 hours ago, Diamaht said:

 

So you're argument now, if I'm understanding correctly, is that millions of theme park mmo player's:

Number 1: got confused and thought this heavily marketed theme park mmo was actually going to be open world when they logged in.

 

SWG players came because it was Star Wars and SWG was closing so they didn't have much of a choice if they wanted to play Star Wars, so they were not confused but that didn't mean they had to like it or not make suggestions.  

[OlBuzzard]

26 minutes ago, casirabit said:

SWG players came because it was Star Wars and SWG was closing so they didn't have much of a choice if they wanted to play Star Wars, so they were not confused but that didn't mean they had to like it or not make suggestions.  

Even if suggestions were made ...  would anyone have listened?

[casirabit]

Just now, OlBuzzard said:

Even if suggestions were made ...  would anyone have listened?

Well, of course not, there were suggestions about not doing the housing the way they did (free rein decorating) but they didn't listen to that and really does SWTOR ever listen (well maybe once in a blue moon) p.

[SteveTheCynic]

2 hours ago, casirabit said:

and really does SWTOR ever listen (well maybe once in a blue moon) p.

Well, I can think of four cases off the top of my head:

• Ability training costs from level 55 to level 60 after they released 3.0.  It was about a million credits per character, which was a *lot* back then, and BioWare's response was to damage the economy by making all ability training free.
• The steer-by-mouse-through-map feature, which turned out in the end to be the result of a bug.  They fixed the bug for other reasons, and the feature no longer worked.  The players complained, and they realised that although it was the result of a bug, it was a *good* result, and they put something in place that restored (most of) the feature.  (They've since broken it slightly...)
• The bug where the game forgot that you proposed to Lana in the aftermath of the Nathema Conspiracy story-step flashpoint.   They fixed the bug and put in place a mini-mission, Error in Alliance Records, that allowed us to fix the lost choice.  (Subsequently, that mission has acquired an undeserved reputation as a way to fix a broken Lana romance, which it never was.)
• The use-dead-or-missing-companion-by-exiting-a-KotFE/ET-chapter feature.  e.g. being able to do general adventuring with Darth Marr by exiting KotFE Chapter I.  This was actually a bug, and they fixed it when they released Jedi Under Siege (Ossus) because it caused other problems.  They *said* they would try to find a way to restore that ability for Marr, HK, and Acina, but nothing ever came of it.

[Spikanor]

i am thinking about this all for some month's about it and i cant still not understand it good at all.

from why this game most follow the other trents to make there game's more noob friendly and easyer for then since we see a lot in other game's all to that if there focus on making the game more nood friendly and easyer for then other players and more old school players get pisst off and hate it since the challance the game has is more gone.

[fabsus]

i think it's very hard for devs to find the right difficulty spot, especially in swtor.

 

in the past they really did a great job. you started the game, got abilities on the run
and every time you got a new one, you got some points to use them. for example stuns.
so when you finished your class story without help, you were ready to run operations 
and harder flashpoints with less issues. you could tweak your gameplay and work on equipment.

i think the downfall really started with 4.0. it was more an more easy to level. you didn't needed
all your abilities and we got more and more players hitting max level without any knowledge about
the class design they are playing. at first just a few, later more an more, especially new players.

today if you play a sorc, you can reach maxlevel with just using forcestorm. the majority of new
players i speak to don't even have clue what they are doing. a really high number even don't 
presses blinking buttons, because they don't even imagine what it could mean. the game is
not even easy, it is hyper casual. 

when i run an operation with newbies, so people hitting their first endlevel character about
6 month ago, it not seldom that i'm doing the most dps as a full tank and need every def
and every chance to use medpacks to compansate the new players. and they are not willing
to learn anything, not even try to look at a guide, because they can do heroics solo with a 
level 50 companion and just die twice each heroic. so they have to be good. 
and it's not even seldom anymore, that you run into powertechs or operatives who think
that they are playing range classes. in pug operations for tech frag farming you often have
one dps in, who could double the damage just by spamming the filler attack, because they
even don't hit 20 apm. 

so even if they are carried through sm stuff, they really get slapped once they try out veteran
operations. and of course they think, that it is way to hard. but the complete game won't
give them feedback at all, until a lategame challenge hits. 

and it is so bad today, that it is nearly impossible to die, if you don't do something
really really stupid, like pulling dozents of enemies or jumping of clifs.

 

/edit
when i level a character, i just use empty shells with no active companion at
all and i don't die a single time. and the companion is just there, because it's
needed to trigger the story. even that feels to easy for me. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by fabsus

[felleto]

I may have a controversial opinion, but here it goes. 

My wife is a big fan of SWTOR and the reason she's a fan and even playing the game to begin with is because the game is "easy". She hates games that are too difficult and just gives up the moment it starts frustrating her too much. To her mind, "it's a game and I shouldn't be getting stressed out over it. If I can't progress I will just put it down and try again another day."

To put things in perspective, she just finished KOTET and KOTFE and had a blast playing it. She loved the story and even managed to defeat some "tough bosses" every now and then (for some encounters she had to ask for help - like the mandalorians you face with Acina). 

She's a much better player nowadays. She can interrupt and move out of fires when needed but that's pretty much where her coordination ends. I like the fact that SWTOR has helped her progressively get better. She doesn't pvp nor do flashpoints or ops. For that reason, I think the game difficulty is fine as is. I think the game should be tough in master fps and ops but not the base game, unless a new difficulty option is added (similar to the one you have in KOTFE an KOTET). 

[ronin_chi_lao]

56 minutes ago, felleto said:

I may have a controversial opinion, but here it goes. 

My wife is a big fan of SWTOR and the reason she's a fan and even playing the game to begin with is because the game is "easy". She hates games that are too difficult and just gives up the moment it starts frustrating her too much. To her mind, "it's a game and I shouldn't be getting stressed out over it. If I can't progress I will just put it down and try again another day."

To put things in perspective, she just finished KOTET and KOTFE and had a blast playing it. She loved the story and even managed to defeat some "tough bosses" every now and then (for some encounters she had to ask for help - like the mandalorians you face with Acina). 

She's a much better player nowadays. She can interrupt and move out of fires when needed but that's pretty much where her coordination ends. I like the fact that SWTOR has helped her progressively get better. She doesn't pvp nor do flashpoints or ops. For that reason, I think the game difficulty is fine as is. I think the game should be tough in master fps and ops but not the base game, unless a new difficulty option is added (similar to the one you have in KOTFE an KOTET). 

I agree adding a similar shift+e shortcut (kotfe and kotet) but for the vanilla story and all other story content in veteran and master mode should be optional to be played at any time after the chapters are unlocked in story mode.

 

[juliushorst]

On 5/30/2023 at 9:34 PM, DWho said:

7.0 was hated because it was a massive disappointment for a 10 year anniversary update after all the build-up not to mention being delayed and not fixing any of the bugs pointed out in the first or second PTS testing.

I hated it specifically for changes to level synch that made the game harder. I don't know why OP claims that "No one wants it to be this easy" - I want it to be 4.0 easy and I don't appreciate someone trying to speak for me.

[Stradlin]

I recall reading Kotor2 review from what was(and remains) the most prestigous gaming magazine of my home country.  Game being far too easy was the major complaint. In mid 00s, this was still a concept. There could be a thing such as unsuitably easy boss fight. It was seen as failed or somehow 'insulting' game design.   How times have changed! Now, people can't deal with the notion of progression in story being somehow difficult.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Stradlin

[DeannaVoyager]

Personally I like the idea that people who only want to do solo stuff, class stories and maybe some heroics have it easy. I have a few friends with physical disabilities, and they wouldn't be able to play this game if it was any harder.  Or at least they wouldn't have fun doing it. I want people to have fun, and what they do with their game time is not my business.

 

However it becomes my business when people who can't play their class want to do group content get in the same group with me because they are not pulling their weight. It wouldn't be that bad if they'd at least acknowledge they are the reason the group is struggling, but quite often they blame someone else when the group wipes. Why? Because they can easily solo heroics with a level 50 companion, as fabsus said. They are good, so the rest of the group must be bad, right?

 

I don't know how to solve this, but I know something needs to be done because pugging can be such a nightmare these days. I've suggested an in-game dps meter before. If people don't know they aren't pulling their weight, they don't know they need to fix something. A casual solo/rp/story player don't  know about starparse, a tool like that should be part of the game. They would see it and get curious, they would want to do better than "the other guy". Never underestimate the competitive nature of human beings. 

[felleto]

Just now, DeannaVoyager said:

Personally I like the idea that people who only want to do solo stuff, class stories and maybe some heroics have it easy. I have a few friends with physical disabilities, and they wouldn't be able to play this game if it was any harder.  Or at least they wouldn't have fun doing it. I want people to have fun, and what they do with their game time is not my business.

 

However it becomes my business when people who can't play their class want to do group content get in the same group with me because they are not pulling their weight. It wouldn't be that bad if they'd at least acknowledge they are the reason the group is struggling, but quite often they blame someone else when the group wipes. Why? Because they can easily solo heroics with a level 50 companion, as fabsus said. They are good, so the rest of the group must be bad, right?

 

I don't know how to solve this, but I know something needs to be done because pugging can be such a nightmare these days. I've suggested an in-game dps meter before. If people don't know they aren't pulling their weight, they don't know they need to fix something. A casual solo/rp/story player don't  know about starparse, a tool like that should be part of the game. They would see it and get curious, they would want to do better than "the other guy". Never underestimate the competitive nature of human beings. 

I agree with your post until the part you talk about DPS meters. Sorry, but I can't get behind that. Speaking from experience, I see the kind of community addons such as these foster and, for me, it just makes people generally behave in a more toxic and elitist way. 

[DeannaVoyager]

11 minutes ago, felleto said:

I agree with your post until the part you talk about DPS meters. Sorry, but I can't get behind that. Speaking from experience, I see the kind of community addons such as these foster and, for me, it just makes people generally behave in a more toxic and elitist way. 

 

People who behave toxic and elitist way do that anyway, because they quite often run with the starparse open. So THEY know when someone is underperforming, but underperforming people don't have a clue. All they know is that someone is being toxic and elitist towards them, but they don't know why. If they don't know why, they can't change things.

 

It was different before 7.0 because everyone had to be in same starparse to see everyone else's numbers. Now after 7.0 anyone can run their own parse and still see what people around them are doing.  All the weapons are now in the hands of the people who use starparse, would be better if everyone would have the same tools.

[felleto]

27 minutes ago, DeannaVoyager said:

 All they know is that someone is being toxic and elitist towards them, but they don't know why. If they don't know why, they can't change things.

I don't know. Do you think it's justifiable for people to be toxic and elitist with players who are underperforming? To my mind, that's not okay in any scenario, and the tool they use just gives them "ammunition". If they didn't have the tool how would they be able to tell? Would they be scrutinizing every rotation of every player in the ops so they can find that one person who is not pressing the right buttons and therefore must be doing little dps or little heals? The whole thing just becomes a finger-pointing festival and it's just the worst experience I have ever seen. 

Whenever I play I try to do the best I can. Because it's MY choice. If other players don't know or don't want it's not my right to tell them how they should play. That being said, I think this kind of "tool" does more harm than good. My opinion of course.

Edited July 31, 2023 by felleto

[OlBuzzard]

3 hours ago, felleto said:

I may have a controversial opinion, but here it goes. 

My wife is a big fan of SWTOR and the reason she's a fan and even playing the game to begin with is because the game is "easy". She hates games that are too difficult and just gives up the moment it starts frustrating her too much. To her mind, "it's a game and I shouldn't be getting stressed out over it. If I can't progress I will just put it down and try again another day."

To put things in perspective, she just finished KOTET and KOTFE and had a blast playing it. She loved the story and even managed to defeat some "tough bosses" every now and then (for some encounters she had to ask for help - like the mandalorians you face with Acina). 

She's a much better player nowadays. She can interrupt and move out of fires when needed but that's pretty much where her coordination ends. I like the fact that SWTOR has helped her progressively get better. She doesn't pvp nor do flashpoints or ops. For that reason, I think the game difficulty is fine as is. I think the game should be tough in master fps and ops but not the base game, unless a new difficulty option is added (similar to the one you have in KOTFE an KOTET). 

I've often thought that a good option would be that the maps for in game progression be somewhat like a wagon wheel!  At the center ...(hub) is the story line area.  Recent difficulty levels have been just fine.  They shouldn't be face-roll easy nor be veteran level difficulty for that matter.  This would apply for all levels of the entire story.

Moving away from the hub .. The further away from the center ... the more difficult the mobs / bosses are.  (BTW... it should be noted that some of the more open area encounters that are a current working game can be found in WoW the underground new cavern area as well as the Obsidian Citadel areas on Dragon Isle are good examples that I'm currently aware of.  I'm certain that there are more).  Obviously the outer rim of (whatever the current map might be) would be reserved for the max difficulty bosses.

This might make things a lot more interesting for not only newer players but also for those looking for a higher level of difficulty without creating 3 separate leveled instances to play. 

Just a thought.

[LD_Little_Dragon]

An in-game dps meter that shows you ONLY your numbers might help.  The players won't have anything to compare it to, but it might get them curious enough to check out where their numbesr should be.

[felleto]

3 minutes ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

An in-game dps meter that shows you ONLY your numbers might help.  The players won't have anything to compare it to, but it might get them curious enough to check out where their numbesr should be.

I can definitely get behind this.   

[DeannaVoyager]

1 hour ago, felleto said:

I don't know. Do you think it's justifiable for people to be toxic and elitist with players who are underperforming? To my mind, that's not okay in any scenario, and the tool they use just gives them "ammunition". If they didn't have the tool how would they be able to tell? Would they be scrutinizing every rotation of every player in the ops so they can find that one person who is not pressing the right buttons and therefore must be doing little dps or little heals? The whole thing just becomes a finger-pointing festival and it's just the worst experience I have ever seen. 

Whenever I play I try to do the best I can. Because it's MY choice. If other players don't know or don't want it's not my right to tell them how they should play. That being said, I think this kind of "tool" does more harm than good. My opinion of course.

 

No, being a toxic elitist is never justifiable. But even if no-one uses starparse, the more experienced players can easily tell who is not doing their job by just watching the fight. If things are dying slowly and players are dying fast, they can tell why.

 

I often turn my starparse on when I notice things are dying way slower than they should. I see tank doing more damage then the dps. Dps are taking more damage than the tank and so on.  Even if I can easily see where/who the problem in the group is, I don't get toxic, ever.  Toxicity doesn't help anyone to get better. I'll just leave the group if I see there's no hope. 

 

My point is, people will be jerks no matter what if they are wired that way. But would be good to give the people who are underperforming a chance to see that they need to improve before entering difficult group content. They are resposible for their own gearing and their own performance and starparse can help with that. And the toxic elitists are responsible for their own stupid behaviour too.  It's a choice they make, and no matter what starparse says, it doesn't justify being a jerk towards less skilled players. 

[DeannaVoyager]

12 minutes ago, LD_Little_Dragon said:

An in-game dps meter that shows you ONLY your numbers might help.  The players won't have anything to compare it to, but it might get them curious enough to check out where their numbesr should be.

Yes, that would be perfect. Good one! 👍

[xxSHOONYxx]

2 hours ago, felleto said:

I don't know. Do you think it's justifiable for people to be toxic and elitist with players who are underperforming? To my mind, that's not okay in any scenario, and the tool they use just gives them "ammunition". If they didn't have the tool how would they be able to tell?

In my experience when i had to tech fragment on different servers things like that only happened when the dps doing less damage than the tank began pointing fingers to other people. So then someone says parse numbers and are labeled "toxic", when it was the person pointing fingers in the first place "toxic"

Once i was even being "taught" how to play my main class because in his eyes i was doing wrong by someone that i was doing 3 almost 4 times more damage than him on the same class, i was humoring him by going along with it but someone jumped and said i was doing 4 times more damage than him and he didn't know what he was talking about, and he began complaining that the other person was toxic because he proved him wrong.

Edited July 31, 2023 by xxSHOONYxx

[Spikanor]

5 hours ago, fabsus said:

i think it's very hard for devs to find the right difficulty spot, especially in swtor.

i think its not that hard to find the right spot since if you keep messing with this like the difficulty then its become worse and only more worse.

i have 2 diffrend chars 1 is level 35 and has compleet all 3 chapters from there class story and that was from the old time.

my newer chars are level 75 or so all when there compleet all the 3 chapters from the class story.

what there have done is remove most off the quest's in the game, also boost the exp rewards like crazy from missions.

when in other game's there not do things like that at some point to make it easyer for new players.

[Shayddow]

It is possible even as things stand to provide a challenge to yourself if you feel you "outclass" the mobs.

Particularly with Sync level.

While you are still under max level (80), provided you have a ship, you can try to fight stuff that isn't 5 ranks above you. (doing 5 ranks above (enemies number is in red) just gets you slaughtered - i.e. on the German Server, I took a 75th character to the new Voss level 80 area and quickly got owned by a few beasts.)

Rather, try about 3 ranks above. I.e. when your class is tasked with going to N.S., try going to Tatooine and go thru the World mission there.

There are certain stuff that still is hard. Go to Voss, go to the lake where one of the datacrons is, in the Nightmare lands, and continue up the coastline until you get to where there are about 3 big mobs. They will eat you alive. (they are listed in the achievements for Voss. I killed them years ago on StarForge - back when it was Ebon Hawk, before level sync was a thing. Now they are virtually undefeatable.

[Shayddow]

Quote

• The use-dead-or-missing-companion-by-exiting-a-KotFE/ET-chapter feature.  e.g. being able to do general adventuring with Darth Marr by exiting KotFE Chapter I.  This was actually a bug, and they fixed it when they released Jedi Under Siege (Ossus) because it caused other problems.  They *said* they would try to find a way to restore that ability for Marr, HK, and Acina, but nothing ever came of it.

I miss that! I would go to the fleet and buy Marr presents!