PTS: Economic Balance Changes

[Enomars]

5 minutes ago, JoeStramaglia said:

median GTN value

very very cool. I love the work that you are doing. that is some serious coding.  So i don't want to break things already but in the 30 seconds that you posted this I figured out how to break it. 

Sorry

I am not a schemer but I am pretty sure I could just post something on the GTN to artificially deflate the value at a vendor then take it down.  THEN repost an over inflated price on the GTN and sell it back to the vendor. I am actually hoping this is not how it works but i thought i would throw it out there to fix before manipulators get their hands on this.   

 

[jedimasterjac]

16 minutes ago, JoeStramaglia said:

Hello everyone! Thank you so much for the feedback - we will be taking action on the item tax values and I’d like to go into a bit more detail here.

Some of these values were out of sync due to some data issues and some methodology issues. Originally these were based on average GTN value and a conversion based on the Cartel Market that was applied to all relevant items even if they were severely divorced from their GTN Value. There was also an issue in regards to stackable items as it was taking the average price of the stack and applying it to a single item which is not at all intended.

To more closely match the intent, we’re changing these to be based on the median GTN value and only applying the conversion for Cartel Market items that were either not in the GTN data or traded near the cap and have a value that exceeds the cap. The conversion was also adjusted based on higher volume items that have a Cartel Coin value to more accurately represent the current economic environment in trade. This should end up looking a bit more fair as the tax won’t be as subject to the potential price volatility you see in the market and the conversion only affects the rarer items or items that have a Cartel Coin value but are low volume trades.

It is worth noting that in both cases, the previous data and the current data is limited by time frame and volume to ensure we’re not putting unnecessarily high values on items that seldom sell. That means however that there will be gaps in this iteration, less items will have a tax value. When the overhaul is put into place it will be completely GTN driven minus some exceptions like the one I am going into next.

An additional aspect that we’re going to adjust here is removing item trade/mail tax for some gameplay focused items such as Medpacs, Grenades, and so on. Please let us know if you encounter any taxes that feel out of place with this new PTS. We want to get this to a place that feels correct. We’ll be monitoring this change to ensure that this is not being abused, and may re-add the tax to some of the higher value items depending on an ongoing review on past behavior.

Guild transfers are something we will be monitoring very closely. It is possible we may impose some additional restrictions in the future, however, we would like to keep guild transfers tax free. This will allow folks who play together regularly to prepare for Operations, giving things to friends, and so on.

That all said, please continue to give us feedback on these changes. I greatly appreciate your time and opinions.
 

Really appreciate the work and the communication. I haven’t seen this much communication in a PTS round ever. 

[codydmaan]

18 minutes ago, JoeStramaglia said:

Hello everyone! Thank you so much for the feedback - we will be taking action on the item tax values and I’d like to go into a bit more detail here.

Some of these values were out of sync due to some data issues and some methodology issues. Originally these were based on average GTN value and a conversion based on the Cartel Market that was applied to all relevant items even if they were severely divorced from their GTN Value. There was also an issue in regards to stackable items as it was taking the average price of the stack and applying it to a single item which is not at all intended.

To more closely match the intent, we’re changing these to be based on the median GTN value and only applying the conversion for Cartel Market items that were either not in the GTN data or traded near the cap and have a value that exceeds the cap. The conversion was also adjusted based on higher volume items that have a Cartel Coin value to more accurately represent the current economic environment in trade. This should end up looking a bit more fair as the tax won’t be as subject to the potential price volatility you see in the market and the conversion only affects the rarer items or items that have a Cartel Coin value but are low volume trades.

It is worth noting that in both cases, the previous data and the current data is limited by time frame and volume to ensure we’re not putting unnecessarily high values on items that seldom sell. That means however that there will be gaps in this iteration, less items will have a tax value. When the overhaul is put into place it will be completely GTN driven minus some exceptions like the one I am going into next.

An additional aspect that we’re going to adjust here is removing item trade/mail tax for some gameplay focused items such as Medpacs, Grenades, and so on. Please let us know if you encounter any taxes that feel out of place with this new PTS. We want to get this to a place that feels correct. We’ll be monitoring this change to ensure that this is not being abused, and may re-add the tax to some of the higher value items depending on an ongoing review on past behavior.

Guild transfers are something we will be monitoring very closely. It is possible we may impose some additional restrictions in the future, however, we would like to keep guild transfers tax free. This will allow folks who play together regularly to prepare for Operations, giving things to friends, and so on.

That all said, please continue to give us feedback on these changes. I greatly appreciate your time and opinions.
 

Well looks like when a person sells a item they can just put it in the guild bank, have the buyer join the guild, withdraw the item tax free. 

 

So tax free trading and selling via guild systems 

[AdsAillard]

41 minutes ago, JoeStramaglia said:

Guild transfers are something we will be monitoring very closely. It is possible we may impose some additional restrictions in the future, however, we would like to keep guild transfers tax free. This will allow folks who play together regularly to prepare for Operations, giving things to friends, and so on.

That all said, please continue to give us feedback on these changes. I greatly appreciate your time and opinions.
 

Well, but guild transfer are already restricted - or, at least, we're meant to build the restrictions along with the ranks, right? If it ever comes a case of needing to further restrict it, the most logical thing is making the exchange rate in rank-tiers and associating a cost to increasing the amount of bank retriving a rank can have* (but not for credits, obviously, as this will wildly vary depending on content/repair needs/summon needs of each guild & moment). 

Still, this doesn't answer the things we brought up in the original thread about how guild in SWTOR regularly run things and how you plan to deal with it, and I'm sure lots of us would love to know both your perceptions on how the currenty practices work & plans for the impact in those, specially for guilds running at/close to member cap.

 

* (Obviously another solution is to make Vice-GM/Banking official coded roles, to make sure defaulting is ocurring correctly when needed & having specific limited number of characters with tax isention when gifting assets/money, even when usuing mail... and perhaps also exempt of "spam" mail error)

[DWho]

39 minutes ago, codydmaan said:

Well looks like when a person sells a item they can just put it in the guild bank, have the buyer join the guild, withdraw the item tax free. 

 

So tax free trading and selling via guild systems 

Hopefully they will monitor this closely and if there is a lot of that type of activity, punish guilds doing it severely. Up to and including permanent bans of those involved.

This is clearly going to happen if guild transactions are not taxed in some form or another. It is very easy to set up a guild to launder these items.

Edited May 10, 2023 by DWho

[Chryptyk]

so inviting people to a guild just to do a trade to avoid taxes is gonna be a sanctioned thing? gotcha.

[DWho]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:11 AM, mCion said:

There was a good point brought up on a Discord. SentSterling does the weekly GreatGiveaway where he gives away hundreds of dollars worth of Cartel Items for free every week for over a year. Currently the system would tax that into non existence. Other approved Bioware content creators (and some generous players) also give away a lot of things.

I am in favor of trades being taxed so to not avoid the GTN, but gifts are a large part of the current community and needs to be worked our correctly.

 

Perhaps only tax when the receiving legacy sends something back to the gifting legacy would be a way to catch GTN trade avoidance.

Perhaps Bioware could institute a "Gifter" status that cannot be obtained in game and only awarded by Bioware that allows gifts without taxes from a specific character (something that can also be taken away if abused). Perhaps they could also create a guild perk that lasts 1 week and costs 1 billion credits that allows free trading within the guild (at least that would pull a billion a week out of the economy in lieu of the missed fees)

[casirabit]

1 hour ago, codydmaan said:

Well looks like when a person sells a item they can just put it in the guild bank, have the buyer join the guild, withdraw the item tax free. 

 

So tax free trading and selling via guild systems 

Guess it depends on the guild.  Our guild wouldn't do it as it is not worth the hassle and/or drama.

[fire-breath]

1 hour ago, JoeStramaglia said:

Guild transfers are something we will be monitoring very closely. It is possible we may impose some additional restrictions in the future, however, we would like to keep guild transfers tax free.

This needs clarification @JoeStramaglia

Do you mean:

1- You would like to keep consumable trading tax-free within the guild, but might impose harsher restrictions if people abuse the system.

2- You would like to keep ALL trading tax-free within the guild, but might impose harsher restrictions if people abuse the system.

[mCion]

2 hours ago, JoeStramaglia said:

we’re changing these to be based on the median GTN value

when you say this, are you referring to median posted value or median completed transaction value? If the latter, how far back in history will you look?

 

Median Posted Value may generate outliers when people post items for exorbitant prices way beyond their worth. Just because something is posted on the GTN for a billion credits does not mean it actually sells for a billion credits. 

 

ANYWAY, thanks devs for looking at this. These GTN changes are probably a headache to get right, but if you do, it will really encourage a healthy economy ingame.

[DWho]

31 minutes ago, casirabit said:

Guess it depends on the guild.  Our guild wouldn't do it as it is not worth the hassle and/or drama.

Doesn't really matter if your guild would do it or not. I don't buy credits from credit sellers but that doesn't mean other players don't. All it takes is a couple of guilds set up specifically to do this and you undercut the entire initiative (again, making only the honest players pay the fees). I would much rather see a guild perk you purchase with credits allow trading between guild members tax free for a limited time (1 week for example) rather than an all out as long as the trade is between guild members it's OK, That's way too easy to abuse (and people will abuse it guaranteed).

[DawnAskham]

Charging a fee to trade items (not credits) is going to cause way more issues than it will solve and should probably be scrapped, or at least delayed until after some period of sustained focus has helped deflate the economy AND only after increasing the GTN cap so more sales are captured.

Absent that, the method for assigning values needs a whole lot of work, as well as a significant commitment to keeping the system and any values updated, along with a willingness to patch the game if something goes off the rails in this system.

For items with a set CC price on the CM, I'd take the median value of Cartel Packs SOLD on the GTN (robust sales volume, not as subjective to variation or manipulation) over a specific period of time (such as the previous 30 days), calculate a credit to CC conversion rate based on the median sold price, then apply the CC to credit value rate against the CC price of the item against the transaction fee.

For items that do not have a CC price on the CM, I don't have any good suggestions other than to assign everything a base CC value based on rarity / item type (e.g. gold weapon, silver armor set, platinum bracers). Trying to capture median sales data to determine the 'value' for these types of items is a fool's errand with the current GTN listing cap, the minimal sales volume of individual items, and the wild variation in price these items tend to incur.

For any materials, crafted items, and such, just set a low reasonable fee based on level / grade / rarity (e.g. level 10 armor, grade 8 green materials, grade 11 gold exotic materials), To keep it even more simplistic and understandable, consider using vendor values (or some reasonable multiple) as a proxy for value. 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by DawnAskham

[codydmaan]

1 hour ago, casirabit said:

Guess it depends on the guild.  Our guild wouldn't do it as it is not worth the hassle and/or drama.

It's easy to make a trading guild with 1 role and nobody except you in the guild. 

Take for example the people selling raids. You could go buy nim duxn for 2200 cartel packs and they would have u join their trade guild post it in the bank etc that's 2200 cartel pack un taxed.

 

Or people who buy gamorrean axes for 8 hypercrates same deal there. 

 

Easy tax avoidance 

[TalLura]

3 hours ago, JoeStramaglia said:

Guild transfers are something we will be monitoring very closely. It is possible we may impose some additional restrictions in the future, however, we would like to keep guild transfers tax free. This will allow folks who play together regularly to prepare for Operations, giving things to friends, and so on.

That all said, please continue to give us feedback on these changes. I greatly appreciate your time and opinions.
 

THank you, was worried that guild bank would be taxed 

Our guild is really small, total of 8 members across multiple characters in legacy. We use our guild bank as way putting crafted dyes, and other items and duplicates that we already have , letting us each have chance to get new outfits. We also use our bank to share crafting materials so the 2 of us who craft in guild can get the matts needed for crafting dark projects .our guild bank credits are almost entirely for repair costs  

[LadyAdmiral]

3 hours ago, JoeStramaglia said:

To more closely match the intent, we’re changing these to be based on the median GTN value and only applying the conversion for Cartel Market items that were either not in the GTN data or traded near the cap and have a value that exceeds the cap. The conversion was also adjusted based on higher volume items that have a Cartel Coin value to more accurately represent the current economic environment in trade. This should end up looking a bit more fair as the tax won’t be as subject to the potential price volatility you see in the market and the conversion only affects the rarer items or items that have a Cartel Coin value but are low volume trades.

 

Would you mind to give some practical examples? These are what we have bene using for our "baseline" for measuring the economy. Price is from May 9 lowest price star forge GTN.

Item	Price	Tax?
Master's Datacron	not on gtn / 3, 200 CC
Tulak Hord's Lightsaber	not on gtn, 5,400 CC
Ultimate Cartel Pack	120mill+
OEM-37	74mill+
RPM-13	75mill+
Superior Critical Augment 77	485mill+
Black and Black Dye Module	1 bill on gtn
Legendary Ember	1.5 mill on gtn
Advanced White-Black Crystal (any kind)	650 mill

--

Very happy about the medpac stuff!

curious about the guild stuff.

[Alakillistyn]

There's a relatively easy way to prevent people from inviting someone to their guild, doing a tax-free trade, and  kicking them or having them quit the guild.  Use the same system that prevents brand new members from their CQ being eligible towards the guild count -- they've gotta be in the guild through a weekly reset else the transaction gets taxed.  Sure, guilds might get taxed a bit for brand new members but it would mitigate that problem.

[Chryptyk]

There's nothing (so far from what we've been told) to prevent us from setting up guilds purely for trading purposes to avoid taxes from trading with guildies.  I'm already thinking up names for some.  You just make a throwaway toon and toss it into one of these trading guilds and conduct your business through those toons with each other.

[thoughtfix]

When calculating GTN prices, you're calculating based on completed sales and not listed prices, right? If there are 20 Baby Grogu toys on eBay for $1M each, it doesn't mean they're worth $1M if nobody's buying them. If you look at Completed eBay items and see they actually sell for $50 or you can buy one at a store for $60, that's the value that should be calculated.

[klizilii]

It's real smart to assign values to all items and I can appreciate the challenge in doing this properly.  Appreciate hearing that this is been looked at from multiple angles.  I know for me, when I look at GTN prices, there are often a large number of items listed at prices that aren't reflective of what I consider the actual price of the item.  I also quite often do quick conversions of cartel coins to credits using the hypercrate conversion of a cartel pack is 180cc and find it fairly reasonable, but it is interesting to see how massively over-valued (credit wise) this makes some items.  I guess it has something to do with items people don't want but get via the cartel packs.

Personally, I think the worry over the guild bank avoiding trade taxes is a bit overblown since people need to have trust to not get scammed to use that method to transfer items via the guild bank.  There is no way to guarantee the other party will hold up their end of the deal.  I think it might also be a good route for people who want to do giveaways to be able to facilitate those through a guild bank if the trade tax is going to be a real concern.

[supertimtaf]

23 hours ago, JoeStramaglia said:

An additional aspect that we’re going to adjust here is removing item trade/mail tax for some gameplay focused items such as Medpacs, Grenades, and so on.

Could you please add to that list any "player-crafted" dye modules as well ? They cost absolutely nothing to make, and peoples oversell them on the GTN already, I would like to avoid being taxed for something that doesn't cost me more than 4k credits to make and give to others. 

All the good dyes are CM-based anyway. (Which you should also look at. You guys are way behind other mmos on that front...!) So maybe make a tax on a dye if it's CM-based or not ?

[klizilii]

13 hours ago, Chryptyk said:

There's nothing (so far from what we've been told) to prevent us from setting up guilds purely for trading purposes to avoid taxes from trading with guildies.  I'm already thinking up names for some.  You just make a throwaway toon and toss it into one of these trading guilds and conduct your business through those toons with each other.

okay, and then get scammed a couple times and see how many people you trade without using a guild bank.  Is it really going to be a substantial avenue for tax avoidance?

[casirabit]

21 hours ago, DWho said:

Doesn't really matter if your guild would do it or not. I don't buy credits from credit sellers but that doesn't mean other players don't. All it takes is a couple of guilds set up specifically to do this and you undercut the entire initiative (again, making only the honest players pay the fees). I would much rather see a guild perk you purchase with credits allow trading between guild members tax free for a limited time (1 week for example) rather than an all out as long as the trade is between guild members it's OK, That's way too easy to abuse (and people will abuse it guaranteed).

That would be okay but most guild perks (at least the ones we use) are 30 days not 1 week.

 

[Chryptyk]

41 minutes ago, klizilii said:

okay, and then get scammed a couple times and see how many people you trade without using a guild bank.  Is it really going to be a substantial avenue for tax avoidance?

you underestimate the lengths people will go through to avoid taxes.  If intraguild trading is exempt from taxes, it leaves a huge hole for people to use.

[DWho]

49 minutes ago, casirabit said:

That would be okay but most guild perks (at least the ones we use) are 30 days not 1 week.

 

I picked a week to make it affordable for smaller guilds. It would have to be pretty high to somewhat compensate for the fees that aren't collected (we are still trying to pull credits out of the economy after all) if it lasted a whole month. You could run a lot of stuff through a guild in a month and having to pay for "free trading" might cause a little hesitation for people setting up trading guilds designed specifically to circumvent the fees (which guilds are already discussing).

[JoeStramaglia]

22 hours ago, LadyAdmiral said:

Would you mind to give some practical examples? These are what we have bene using for our "baseline" for measuring the economy. Price is from May 9 lowest price star forge GTN.

 

Item	Price	Tax?
Master's Datacron	not on gtn / 3, 200 CC	179,200,000
Tulak Hord's Lightsaber	not on gtn, 5,400 CC	302,400,000
Ultimate Cartel Pack	120mill+	11,140,000
OEM-37	74mill+	6,848,000
RPM-13	75mill+	6,752,000
Superior Critical Augment 77	485mill+	45,920,000
Black and Black Dye Module	1 bill on gtn	84,000,000
Legendary Ember	1.5 mill on gtn	168,000
Advanced White-Black Crystal (any kind)	650 mill	39,200,000 -  53,000,000

 

Sure, I am happy to give some of these examples (though please do still check things out on the PTS server to verify and to help us find things that feel incorrect).

An important caveat with these is while each server has a slightly different economy these are using a median across the entire game. When the GTN overhaul happens it will depend strictly on your server. Also because these are static values until the overhaul that means in order for them to change, it will have to be with a patch. I cannot speak to when we would do that but whenever we have one, we will make sure to give it an update if necessary.

Special note on Advanced White-Black Crystal, they don't all sell for the same amounts so that is the current range with the least being Hawkeye and the most being Eviscerating.

For those asking, the values are based on successful sales - not listing prices.

Thanks for the question, I hope these help!