1. There is nothing wrong with the economy; 2. To change it you must control the exchange rate

[StrikePrice]

You're wrong about the economy

You can play the game perfectly well as a new player. There's nothing you need in the economy to play the game.

It is unreasonable to expect to come into an 11 year old game, where players have spent billions in real money and participate in the "cool stuff" without investment.

Players have spent millions of hours and billions of real dollars on this game. If you want to "catch up" with the economy, the solution is simple. Buy a Hypercrate for $50 and sell it. You will get billions of in game credits. In one fell swoop, you are caught up with the economy.

It is completely reasonable to expect to have to spend time or real money to catch up. 

"Normal" games off the shelf are $70 US. So, for $50, you are getting in cheap. Remember, you don't need to do this. It's only for things that you want.

Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the economy. If you don't want to spend any money on the game -- don't. You don't need to. If you want to accelerate your time in the game or you want "cool stuff", well spend time to get it or spend money. We have.  You're not special. 

 

The issue is the exchange rate

The problem people have is with the exchange rate of Cartel Coins to Credits which is synonymous with USD to Credits. Right now, the exchange rate of Credits to USD is controlled by players in game (excluding gold sellers for now). If you want to control the exchange rate of USD to Credits, it's simple. Control it. How? 

Offer a rotating item in the CM that sells for credits.

As long as you keep the current 1bn credits to 1,000 CC, people who pay money for the CM will not be upset. They know people in game can get items for that number of credits from other players. But, over time, you will be pulling trillions out of the economy. Soon, you will control the conversion of Credits to USD. How? By simply lowering the price of the CM items you offer for credits. You will be able to control prices because players in game will not be willing to pay much over what is being offered in the CM as an exchange rate. 

 

If you want to control the economy, control the exchange rate. The beauty of this solution is that you don't have to make any new cosmetic items. You already have them.

You're welcome.

[Traceguy]

I agree. It's not like inflation has made shop vendors raise the cost of armor repairs, armor, armor mods, or anything else they sell. The only thing that has gone up is player to player trades. And that is a 2 way street. So people could can become instantly rich just by selling their junk.

End game is all about "Space Barbie", and there are green armor items that are worth using, but can't be found by level 80 players due to gear drops being associated with your level. Hutta mobs drop level 80 armor for example. Low level players can take their rare armor drops and sell them on the GTN 1,000,000 credits a piece.

Or just use Crew Skills and sell that mats you're not using to craft with. It's like 99% of people refuse to acknowledge crew skills exist outside of Flashpoint shortcuts.

[AJediKnight]

Totally agree with the OP.

[MortenJessen]

One of the problems is, most new players (and some older) just DONT see it that way. And that is why gold sellers have the time of their life in this game. Because gratification(s) NOW is the new standard for MMO players.

[tritiya]

1 hour ago, StrikePrice said:

You're wrong about the economy

You can play the game perfectly well as a new player. There's nothing you need in the economy to play the game.

It is unreasonable to expect to come into an 11 year old game, where players have spent billions in real money and participate in the "cool stuff" without investment.

Players have spent millions of hours and billions of real dollars on this game. If you want to "catch up" with the economy, the solution is simple. Buy a Hypercrate for $50 and sell it. You will get billions of in game credits. In one fell swoop, you are caught up with the economy.

It is completely reasonable to expect to have to spend time or real money to catch up. 

"Normal" games off the shelf are $70 US. So, for $50, you are getting in cheap. Remember, you don't need to do this. It's only for things that you want.

Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the economy. If you don't want to spend any money on the game -- don't. You don't need to. If you want to accelerate your time in the game or you want "cool stuff", well spend time to get it or spend money. We have.  You're not special. 

 

The issue is the exchange rate

The problem people have is with the exchange rate of Cartel Coins to Credits which is synonymous with USD to Credits. Right now, the exchange rate of Credits to USD is controlled by players in game (excluding gold sellers for now). If you want to control the exchange rate of USD to Credits, it's simple. Control it. How? 

Offer a rotating item in the CM that sells for credits.

As long as you keep the current 1bn credits to 1,000 CC, people who pay money for the CM will not be upset. They know people in game can get items for that number of credits from other players. But, over time, you will be pulling trillions out of the economy. Soon, you will control the conversion of Credits to USD. How? By simply lowering the price of the CM items you offer for credits. You will be able to control prices because players in game will not be willing to pay much over what is being offered in the CM as an exchange rate. 

 

If you want to control the economy, control the exchange rate. The beauty of this solution is that you don't have to make any new cosmetic items. You already have them.

You're welcome.

This! This post explains it well in simple terms. If someone wants cool cosmetics with Cartel Coins symbol on it's icon they should obtain Cartel Coins (GS or pay real $). Everything in the game is (was because of travel taxes now) stable. The prices are stable, haven't changed even a little bit over those years! I have tried to explain this as a reply to different posts about "inflation" before 7.2.1... There is no inflation in SWTOR shops. Only when using the GTN kiosks and trying to buy cosmetics and dyes. apart from Augments and Adrenals/Stims (gameplay items) every other item is just cosmetic one. Not needed to play the game. Even new players will be on the same level when using basic services (speeder travel/ship fuel/basic stims/meds/). Now these quick travel taxes are punishing brand new players. The richer ones don't care, there's even an option to turn off the warning/question if we are sure to quick travel (I turned it off, 5000 creds aren't something to be bothered about and I'm not one of the the "ultra rich" 100billionaires). After these taxes were introduced the inflation creeped in the base game...

[DawnAskham]

2 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

You're wrong about the economy

You can play the game perfectly well as a new player. There's nothing you need in the economy to play the game.

It is unreasonable to expect to come into an 11 year old game, where players have spent billions in real money and participate in the "cool stuff" without investment.

Players have spent millions of hours and billions of real dollars on this game. If you want to "catch up" with the economy, the solution is simple. Buy a Hypercrate for $50 and sell it. You will get billions of in game credits. In one fell swoop, you are caught up with the economy.

It is completely reasonable to expect to have to spend time or real money to catch up. 

"Normal" games off the shelf are $70 US. So, for $50, you are getting in cheap. Remember, you don't need to do this. It's only for things that you want.

Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the economy. If you don't want to spend any money on the game -- don't. You don't need to. If you want to accelerate your time in the game or you want "cool stuff", well spend time to get it or spend money. We have.  You're not special. 

 

The issue is the exchange rate

The problem people have is with the exchange rate of Cartel Coins to Credits which is synonymous with USD to Credits. Right now, the exchange rate of Credits to USD is controlled by players in game (excluding gold sellers for now). If you want to control the exchange rate of USD to Credits, it's simple. Control it. How? 

Offer a rotating item in the CM that sells for credits.

As long as you keep the current 1bn credits to 1,000 CC, people who pay money for the CM will not be upset. They know people in game can get items for that number of credits from other players. But, over time, you will be pulling trillions out of the economy. Soon, you will control the conversion of Credits to USD. How? By simply lowering the price of the CM items you offer for credits. You will be able to control prices because players in game will not be willing to pay much over what is being offered in the CM as an exchange rate. 

 

If you want to control the economy, control the exchange rate. The beauty of this solution is that you don't have to make any new cosmetic items. You already have them.

You're welcome.

Two problems.

Bioware would have to forgo CC revenue - and no matter how much I would like to pay for CM items with credits, that just isn't going to happen.

Credit sellers exist - and as long as they offer a conversion rate that is better than Bioware (which they do today), Bioware would lose even more revenue.

[StrikePrice]

43 minutes ago, DawnAskham said:

Two problems.

Bioware would have to forgo CC revenue - and no matter how much I would like to pay for CM items with credits, that just isn't going to happen.

Credit sellers exist - and as long as they offer a conversion rate that is better than Bioware (which they do today), Bioware would lose even more revenue.

I agree with you. These are definitely two of the weaknesses. That's why I'm thinking it's 1 item only ... maybe rotating once a week and kinda on a delay so everyone who wants it now (like me lol) will have paid money. 

Credit sellers. That's an issue for sure. But, that's an issue no matter what. But, if we can raise the cost of selling credits, it might make it less attractive to people. Is it really better to give $20 and your personal information to some shady gold seller or give $50 to BioWare. I donno. But, I don't disagree with you.

[StrikePrice]

2 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

One of the problems is, most new players (and some older) just DONT see it that way. And that is why gold sellers have the time of their life in this game. Because gratification(s) NOW is the new standard for MMO players.

You're right. And it's not that I'm anti-new player. I want new players to come to the game and have fun. Realistically, and knowing all the stuff my guild gives away, most new players can get a lot of cool stuff by joining a guild and being social. When I find a legitimately new player, I'm happy to give them a mount, armor, color crystals, and I know most long time players of the game are the same. It's really only the ultra premium items that are out of reach of new players that don't want to spend any money.

[remylion]

6 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

You're wrong about the economy

You can play the game perfectly well as a new player. There's nothing you need in the economy to play the game.

It is unreasonable to expect to come into an 11 year old game, where players have spent billions in real money and participate in the "cool stuff" without investment.

Players have spent millions of hours and billions of real dollars on this game. If you want to "catch up" with the economy, the solution is simple. Buy a Hypercrate for $50 and sell it. You will get billions of in game credits. In one fell swoop, you are caught up with the economy.

It is completely reasonable to expect to have to spend time or real money to catch up. 

"Normal" games off the shelf are $70 US. So, for $50, you are getting in cheap. Remember, you don't need to do this. It's only for things that you want.

Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the economy. If you don't want to spend any money on the game -- don't. You don't need to. If you want to accelerate your time in the game or you want "cool stuff", well spend time to get it or spend money. We have.  You're not special. 

 

The issue is the exchange rate

The problem people have is with the exchange rate of Cartel Coins to Credits which is synonymous with USD to Credits. Right now, the exchange rate of Credits to USD is controlled by players in game (excluding gold sellers for now). If you want to control the exchange rate of USD to Credits, it's simple. Control it. How? 

Offer a rotating item in the CM that sells for credits.

As long as you keep the current 1bn credits to 1,000 CC, people who pay money for the CM will not be upset. They know people in game can get items for that number of credits from other players. But, over time, you will be pulling trillions out of the economy. Soon, you will control the conversion of Credits to USD. How? By simply lowering the price of the CM items you offer for credits. You will be able to control prices because players in game will not be willing to pay much over what is being offered in the CM as an exchange rate. 

 

If you want to control the economy, control the exchange rate. The beauty of this solution is that you don't have to make any new cosmetic items. You already have them.

You're welcome.

This requires a person to constantly update the vendor value of the CM item to keep up with inflation on each specific server. Two issues will arise if Bioware fails to keep the values constantly updated

1. The CM-to-credit item vendors for a greater value than any other CM item can be sold for to other players. Everyone starts buying the CM item which injects massive amounts of credits into the economy which increases inflation until the CM item is no longer a good value over selling other CM items.

1. The CM-to-credit item vendors for less value than any other CM item can be sold for to other players. No one buys this item because a player can buy almost any other item on the CM and sell it to players for more credits.

If CM-to-credit item is constantly updated to keep up with inflation so the item retains its value, then other issues become apparent.

Best case scenario would result in there being less CM items being sold to players for credits, an increase in inflation since the new CM-to-credit item instantly creates credits, and more players buy credits from third party sources to keep up with the newly increased rate of inflation and lower supply of CM items being sold to players.

Basically this CM-to-credit item would destroy the economy because it would be injecting new credits into the economy where as players to player trading does not inject new credits. When players trade credits to each other, the credits are only changing hands, this does not directly increase inflation. When players sell items on the GTN they decrease inflation via the GTN tax or when they cancel their auction to undercut other sellers.

A CM-to-credit item would not help the economy at all sadly. If you want to help the economy we need to remove credits, not introduce new credits.

Edited March 31, 2023 by remylion

[AJediKnight]

6 hours ago, MortenJessen said:

One of the problems is, most new players (and some older) just DONT see it that way. And that is why gold sellers have the time of their life in this game. Because gratification(s) NOW is the new standard for MMO players.

According to fleet chat, the credit prices have exploded like 10-50 fold in the past few weeks. I don't honestly know if that's good or bad for the sellers, but I've heard some people say they can no longer afford these "supplements." Seems like this might actually devastate the illegal trade.

The flip side is, I haven't seen actual in-game AH prices come down at all. Items are just as expensive as they ever were. So... there's now less cash floating around, items remain as overpriced as ever... 

Sounds like we're trending the wrong way.

[Ardrossan]

5 hours ago, StrikePrice said:

I agree with you. These are definitely two of the weaknesses. That's why I'm thinking it's 1 item only ... maybe rotating once a week and kinda on a delay so everyone who wants it now (like me lol) will have paid money. 

It should be time limited, almost like the collection sale weeks. 

They could also do this for appearance modification: have a week where subs can pay credits to change appearance. That idea of appearance mod for credits has been around forever and discounted for the same reason as yours, it would hurt CC sales, but if it's time limited they might be able to swing it with monetization.

[xxSHOONYxx]

4 hours ago, AJediKnight said:

According to fleet chat, the credit prices have exploded like 10-50 fold in the past few weeks. I don't honestly know if that's good or bad for the sellers, but I've heard some people say they can no longer afford these "supplements." Seems like this might actually devastate the illegal trade.

The flip side is, I haven't seen actual in-game AH prices come down at all. Items are just as expensive as they ever were. So... there's now less cash floating around, items remain as overpriced as ever... 

Sounds like we're trending the wrong way.

The "credit" is worthless already, for any transaction you either have to trust the person buying/selling or you get ripped off if you want to buy something it usually requieres more than 1 trade because you can only carry 4.2b on you. 

Inflation in this game has been exponentially growing, i went over reddit to check past prices and how the fluctuated.
- 8 years ago a hypercrate was worth on the 3-5m credits depending on how long it was released (keep in mind also hypercrates when first released had a higher cost of cc, highest price i could find was 8640 cc)
- 7 years ago price went to 6-7.5m credits (https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/44myco/how_much_does_a_hypercrate_usually_cost/) and at the end to up to 20m later on the year (https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/4n7cx4/hypercrate_prices_exploding/)
- 3 years ago price went to 180-200m credits (https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/gs25ib/hypercrate_prices_how_much_on_your_server/)
- 2 years ago price went to around 450m (https://www.reddit.com/r/swtor/comments/lkiyqf/hypercrate_prices/)
- 1 year ago 1b (by memory, don't have a link so might be wrong in the time frame)
- Now hypercrates are between 10 to 15b credits last i check

Every MMO has inflation, exploits and bots, but this is hyperinflation and it's due to removal of credit sinks under the disguise of QoL updates and straight out lack of credit sinks and how bioware mentality for the past time has been forcing players into activities that generate a lot of new credits plus the conquest fiasco. 
Credits are worthless as i said, any smart person is not going to want to have credits on their account because each day the purchase value of those credits falls, credits are still being printed none stop, and people are not going to want to sell their items unless they need quick credits for something specific because as i said above having/saving in credits it's a bad move because you are screwing yourself. So prices will keep rising and rising, we are at a stage that items are used for transactions instead of credits same thing that happens with countries with hyperinflation.

Because people rather save their items because they know credits are worthless, it is harder for the illegal trade as you call it to get ahold of those items so the items they already have gone up in price, but those illegal items and services are still WAY more cheap than the prices in CC, in some cases you can get 3 times what you would get from the CM for the same money.

There is nothing right about the game economy

[Stradlin]

GTN is supposed to be the heart of player to player trade and the largest singular money sink there is. Inflation has reached a level where GTN is now obsolete and unused, when it comes to plat tier items, various unlocks and so on. Players have to resort to discord channels and trade chat spam for selling and buying the high value items. This, in turn bypasses the sell tax and worsens the  inflation.

You doing nothingtoseeheredrebin.gïf while behind you, theres an exploding inflation that has made main tool for player to player trade obsolete. 😛This somehow feels like such a novelty act that  you'd deserve an achi for it.

Some degree of inlation is completely unavoidable and would be somewhat fine, if players had tools for coping with it. (GTN that  understands big numbers.) Players don't have tools for coping with it.

 

It is true new players aren't in any particular distress though. Inflation doesn't really touch them, unless they get inolved with player to player trade. If they get involved with player to player trade, they make lots of money real fast.  This, in turn makes all the credit sinks that  BW once meant to be significant challenges turn very easy for the new players. Buying SH for 7 million was a huge investment once. Now? If a new player joins a guild, reaches conquest target and  sells the  encryption, he's done. That's 7 mils earned. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Stradlin

[FlatTax]

There's a lot wrong with the economy, and it's all due to Cash-to-Credits conversions.

Credits impact all core game systems, and are the way most players acquire endgame Augments.

Gearing needs to be demonetized.

[SteveTheCynic]

15 minutes ago, FlatTax said:

Gearing needs to be demonetized.

Say more than just that.  Explain how you'd do it, how you'd prevent credits from inserting themselves into the process.  (I'm not saying it can't be done, and indeed I have some ideas, but you *must* explain how, or people will just treat you as if you're just mouthing off.)

[FlatTax]

14 minutes ago, SteveTheCynic said:

Say more than just that.  Explain how you'd do it, how you'd prevent credits from inserting themselves into the process.  (I'm not saying it can't be done, and indeed I have some ideas, but you *must* explain how, or people will just treat you as if you're just mouthing off.)

Sure.

A 90% solution would be to simply make endgame Augments/Kits available through gear vendors for Tech Frags, DRM, etc.

[xxSHOONYxx]

8 minutes ago, FlatTax said:

Sure.

A 90% solution would be to simply make endgame Augments/Kits available through gear vendors for Tech Frags, DRM, etc.

And make the little of worth of crafting out of the game taking more content out of the window? Game needs to deal with inflation but taking content out of the game is not the solution either.
Besides technically augments can be made mostly through tech frags

[Jdast]

29 minutes ago, FlatTax said:

Sure.

A 90% solution would be to simply make endgame Augments/Kits available through gear vendors for Tech Frags, DRM, etc.

At least you have narrowed down your argument to just endgame Augments / Kits and stopped trying to persuade us that +41 crystals (which are easily craftable) constitute a monetization of endgame. 😉

FYI, Ilvl 300 Augments are already available via Tech Fragments (OEMs and RPMs) and Crafting (Cybertech and appropriate crafting ability for tertiary stat). You don't have to spend 1 Dollar, Euro or any other real life currency to make Ilvl 300 Augments.

This is why your argument consistently fails to gain traction. And the notion that a 4% increase in power from Ilvl 300 Augments would resolve 90% of the problem is patently absurd on its face. Everything else requires you to play the game and earn Bind on Legacy currencies.

Dasty

Edited April 1, 2023 by Jdast
Stupid Typos!

[CarpeSangrea]

15 hours ago, xxSHOONYxx said:

we are at a stage that items are used for transactions

This is what originally happened with diablo 2 back in the day, when the base currency of gold was effectively replaced by stones of jordan.

[SteveTheCynic]

7 hours ago, FlatTax said:

Sure.

A 90% solution would be to simply make endgame Augments/Kits available through gear vendors for Tech Frags, DRM, etc.

OK, but how does that demonetise them?  (Unless you mean "only through" rather than "through".  You have, in the past, asserted that the availability of non-monetised paths is insufficient, that those paths must be the *only* paths.)

[FlatTax]

15 hours ago, SteveTheCynic said:

OK, but how does that demonetise them?  (Unless you mean "only through" rather than "through".  You have, in the past, asserted that the availability of non-monetised paths is insufficient, that those paths must be the *only* paths.)

That's right.

A total solution would limit cash purchases to true cosmetics only.

[remylion]

4 hours ago, FlatTax said:

That's right.

A total solution would limit cash purchases to true cosmetics only.

you do realize that trading credits between players does not increase inflation.

If anything it can reduce inflation if the GTN is used; which is why the GTN limit needs to be raised or all credit transactions between different accounts should be taxed.

 

[FlatTax]

3 hours ago, remylion said:

you do realize that trading credits between players does not increase inflation.

If anything it can reduce inflation if the GTN is used; which is why the GTN limit needs to be raised or all credit transactions between different accounts should be taxed.

 

Yes.

The only thing I care about is getting gearing (and other game mechanics) out of the Credit/Cash economy.

Edited April 2, 2023 by FlatTax

[remylion]

6 hours ago, FlatTax said:

Yes.

The only thing I care about is getting gearing (and other game mechanics) out of the Credit/Cash economy.

why?

You can also craft them yourself.

[SteveTheCynic]

10 hours ago, remylion said:

why?

You can also craft them yourself.

FT's view is that everything that *allows* getting the best gear by spending cash in some way is Pay To Win, even if you can obtain the same best gear by in-game methods.  (That is, if there are two routes, one by gameplay and one by converting cash to CCs to CM items to credits, the game is P2W.)

No idea where League of Angels or Perfect World, or even worse, Game of War: Fire Age would fit on that scale, nor how to distinguish them from SWTOR's two-paths-to-the-same-stuff thing.