Credit Economy Initiative beginning with 7.2.1

[DWho]

1 hour ago, DawnAskham said:

From my recollection, 4.0 was when inflation in-game started significantly accelerating (from slowly creeping up to seeing prices double in short order), which was also when they did all the rescaling (with level-scaled rewards)

This one act infused more credits into the game than anything else including when they were still giving credit rewards for conquest. Doing the same content (such as easy heroics/dailies/flashpoints) with a high level character netted 5-10 times more credits than if it was done with a low level character. The "cost" of playing was also not significantly higher for those high level characters. Reverting just this one thing would crush credit influx into the game and put it back to more where it should be. They should go back to the planet level based rewards (same for flashpoints and operations based on their original levels) and create "mission specific" gear drops (like they initially had in flashpoints) to encourage players to replay the content (honestly though, with conquest and GS, there are more than enough rewards for high level characters without showering them in credits too).

The next step is to come up with a way to remove the excess credits already in the game (that have been building up now for almost a decade) and to shut down completely buying credits from outside sources for real money (severe bans and removal of credits). Forcing all trades back onto the GTN would make sure all high value transactions are subject to the GTN tax which is really the only credit sink of any significance in the game (and more importantly affects the people with the most credits the most, unlike the travel cost sinks which hurt low level and casual players the most but have no real impact on the stockpiles of credits many players have).

[Darcmoon]

17 minutes ago, DWho said:

This one act infused more credits into the game than anything else including when they were still giving credit rewards for conquest. Doing the same content (such as easy heroics/dailies/flashpoints) with a high level character netted 5-10 times more credits than if it was done with a low level character. The "cost" of playing was also not significantly higher for those high level characters. Reverting just this one thing would crush credit influx into the game and put it back to more where it should be. They should go back to the planet level based rewards (same for flashpoints and operations based on their original levels) and create "mission specific" gear drops (like they initially had in flashpoints) to encourage players to replay the content (honestly though, with conquest and GS, there are more than enough rewards for high level characters without showering them in credits too).

The next step is to come up with a way to remove the excess credits already in the game (that have been building up now for almost a decade) and to shut down completely buying credits from outside sources for real money (severe bans and removal of credits). Forcing all trades back onto the GTN would make sure all high value transactions are subject to the GTN tax which is really the only credit sink of any significance in the game (and more importantly affects the people with the most credits the most, unlike the travel cost sinks which hurt low level and casual players the most but have no real impact on the stockpiles of credits many players have).

Are you suggesting that they make, DK for example, the heroics give items and/or credits equivalent to level 17?   If so, that is stupid as can be.   One of the reasons they changed them was so people would do them more often. Imagine only having Mannan and Rhunouk (or however it’s spelled) as areas to get level 80 daily resource matrixes and conquest gear.  I really don’t think people would be doing near as much of the older areas even taking in to account conquest and GS.  Additionally, why would anyone go to a FP where they wouldn’t get anything that benefits them?  
 

I agree it would be nice if the credit sellers were stomped on hard but, at least in the MMOs I’ve played, none of them were able to stomp them out.  

[Traceguy]

1 minute ago, Darcmoon said:

 One of the reasons they changed them was so people would do them more often.

I have nearly 30 level 80s, and I do 100k CQP weekly on more than half of them. I am on DK 7 days a week for the CQP, not the credits. I get credits from Flag Ship plans. DK heroics could give me 0 credits, and I'd still make credits going there.

While it's not the same for everyone, there are a good amount of players like myself who will go there for the CQP. Also, a good chunk of level 80s will be farming DRMs

[DWho]

1 minute ago, Darcmoon said:

Are you suggesting that they make, DK for example, the heroics give items and/or credits equivalent to level 17?   If so, that is stupid as can be.   One of the reasons they changed them was so people would do them more often. Imagine only having Mannan and Rhunouk (or however it’s spelled) as areas to get level 80 daily resource matrixes and conquest gear.  I really don’t think people would be doing near as much of the older areas even taking in to account conquest and GS.  Additionally, why would anyone go to a FP where they wouldn’t get anything that benefits them?  
 

I agree it would be nice if the credit sellers were stomped on hard but, at least in the MMOs I’ve played, none of them were able to stomp them out.  

Yes, absolutely. The reason for changing them now is that at the time of the original change there were no real rewards for doing that content for high level characters. Now you get DRMs, Tech Fragments, GS "currency", Conquest points (which yield even more rewards). A level 80 character gets lots of materials to upgrade their gear (and "purchase" better gear from doing even the easiest heroics). Far more value to that character than the credits especially when one RPM/OEM that you get for a couple thousand tech fragments sells for hundreds of millions on the GTN.

[Darcmoon]

5 minutes ago, DWho said:

Yes, absolutely. The reason for changing them now is that at the time of the original change there were no real rewards for doing that content for high level characters. Now you get DRMs, Tech Fragments, GS "currency", Conquest points (which yield even more rewards). A level 80 character gets lots of materials to upgrade their gear (and "purchase" better gear from doing even the easiest heroics). Far more value to that character than the credits especially when one RPM/OEM that you get for a couple thousand tech fragments sells for hundreds of millions on the GTN.

Then you don’t want them to reduce the rewards totally.  Because the heroics and daily areas don’t give DRMs and conquest gear crate until you are 80 currently. With what you said about changing them back then they wouldn’t give them then either even at 80.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Darcmoon

[Darcmoon]

7 minutes ago, Traceguy said:

I have nearly 30 level 80s, and I do 100k CQP weekly on more than half of them. I am on DK 7 days a week for the CQP, not the credits. I get credits from Flag Ship plans. DK heroics could give me 0 credits, and I'd still make credits going there.

While it's not the same for everyone, there are a good amount of players like myself who will go there for the CQP. Also, a good chunk of level 80s will be farming DRMs

And I didn’t say that no one would do them because of that, just that the number of people who do them would go down a lot.  How much it would change is a guess on both our parts. And like I posted above, why would they give DRMs if they revert them back?

[DWho]

16 minutes ago, Darcmoon said:

Then you don’t want them to reduce the rewards totally.  Because the heroics and daily areas don’t give DRMs and conquest gear crate until you are 80 currently. With what you said about changing them back then they wouldn’t give them then either even at 80.

Now you're just splitting hairs. There is no reason a level 80 character should get 5 times the reward (credits) of a level 35 character for doing the same content considering all of the other rewards the level 80 characters are getting.

[DWho]

27 minutes ago, Traceguy said:

I have nearly 30 level 80s, and I do 100k CQP weekly on more than half of them. I am on DK 7 days a week for the CQP, not the credits. I get credits from Flag Ship plans. DK heroics could give me 0 credits, and I'd still make credits going there.

While it's not the same for everyone, there are a good amount of players like myself who will go there for the CQP. Also, a good chunk of level 80s will be farming DRMs

This is my experience with Coruscant heroics as well. The vast majority of players running it are in end game gear, though not "BIS" (implying level 80). I think it's pretty safe to say almost none of them are there for the credits but those credits find their way into the economy anyway.

[Darcmoon]

4 minutes ago, DWho said:

Now you're just splitting hairs. There is no reason a level 80 character should get 5 times the reward (credits) of a level 35 character for doing the same content considering all of the other rewards the level 80 characters are getting.

And why should you get end game items (DRMs, Tech Frags, conquest gear) if the heroics are reverted back.  You want to keep getting the items you want but remove what YOU don’t want/care about from them.  

 

4 minutes ago, DWho said:

This is my experience with Coruscant heroics as well. The vast majority of players running it are in end game gear, though not "BIS" (implying level 80). I think it's pretty safe to say almost none of them are there for the credits but those credits find their way into the economy anyway.

And when I run those heroics, I am expecting and wanting those credits and if my toon is 61+ then the alliance crates.  I think it is pretty safe to say they are there for the credits also. 

[DWho]

2 minutes ago, Darcmoon said:

And why should you get end game items (DRMs, Tech Frags, conquest gear) if the heroics are reverted back.  You want to keep getting the items you want but remove what YOU don’t want/care about from them.  

 

And when I run those heroics, I am expecting and wanting those credits and if my toon is 61+ then the alliance crates.  I think it is pretty safe to say they are there for the credits also. 

The problem with the economy is influx of credits (at least according to Bioware). Reducing these credit payouts would do more for bringing the economy under control than the low level/casual player punitive changes they are suggesting.

Once again more hair splitting

Edited February 23, 2023 by DWho

[Darcmoon]

2 minutes ago, DWho said:

The problem with the economy is influx of credits (at least according to Bioware). Reducing these credit payouts would do more for bringing the economy under control than the low level/casual player punitive changes they are suggesting.

Once again more hair splitting

It may be hair splitting but you are suggesting something that benefits you and not worrying about if others like it.  Would it reduce the number of credits?  Yup.  So would resetting everyone to zero credits.  Doesn’t mean either one is a good idea. 

[DWho]

Just now, Darcmoon said:

It may be hair splitting but you are suggesting something that benefits you and not worrying about if others like it.  Would it reduce the number of credits?  Yup.  So would resetting everyone to zero credits.  Doesn’t mean either one is a good idea. 

Resetting credits to zero doesn't do anything about the influx of credits, so you are making a false comparison (though I do agree something needs to be done about the credits already in the game). The game ran fine for years with low level heroics rewarding "low-level" rewards (heck, I used to run them because it was one of the best ways to collect the low level gear - which is near impossible now). A level 50 character in 1.0 running a low level heroic got low level rewards.

The point is that if your goal is to reduce credit influx (which is what Bioware says their goal is with the travel taxes), there are far more effective ways of doing it that charging for quick travel (I'm not even against charging for it, just the ridiculous level of those charges) - which has a disproportionate impact on the same characters you are complaining would be impacted by lowering the heroics credit/gear rewards.

Lots of people don't like the quick travel costs, should Bioware scrap those too.

[Darcmoon]

4 minutes ago, DWho said:

Resetting credits to zero doesn't do anything about the influx of credits, so you are making a false comparison (though I do agree something needs to be done about the credits already in the game). The game ran fine for years with low level heroics rewarding "low-level" rewards (heck, I used to run them because it was one of the best ways to collect the low level gear - which is near impossible now). A level 50 character in 1.0 running a low level heroic got low level rewards.

The point is that if your goal is to reduce credit influx (which is what Bioware says their goal is with the travel taxes), there are far more effective ways of doing it that charging for quick travel (I'm not even against charging for it, just the ridiculous level of those charges) - which has a disproportionate impact on the same characters you are complaining would be impacted by lowering the heroics credit/gear rewards.

Lots of people don't like the quick travel costs, should Bioware scrap those too.

I’ll say upfront that I think the change to charging for QT is a stupid one.  I don’t think it should go through. I posted earlier in the thread my issues with it.  And I agree that it has a disproportionate impact on new players and lower level toons.  
 

The part about reducing credits to zero is because it is another idea people have tossed out to fix the economy.  It’s not a false equivalent because the amount of credits made would be fine if all the current ones went away.  It’s a stupid idea because I’m pretty sure it would kill the game. BW May say the influx but it is all under the overreaching umbrella of ‘fixing’ the economy.  Of course their ‘fix’ from 7.0 hasn’t slowed down inflation in the least. 

[Balameb]

Catharsis time for me. This will be long. I will try to make it easy to read and also divided it in two post.

First Part: These will be a group of ideas I liked and general thoughts. So not necessary my ideas, because there is so much to quote even the new forum and and the time it took me to read decided to just take things from here and there.

 

Start with a Short version, or more like basic understanding/advice to BW that of course will be ignored:

* Start by fixing how people avoid GTN taxes.

* Pay more attention to credit sellers AND buyers.

* Change the ToS in order to Ban sale runs.

* Think credit sinks where people are HAPPY to SPEND their credits. Taxing something that is currently free is just a bad thing to do.

* Learn economics. Sorry, is not that I want to be an as*, but the things you had done and the excuses behind some choices can be one of two things: you are openly disrespecting your player base by insulting our intelligence; or you are just too ignorant in the subject.

* When you have an idea, don’t just consider how you think it should work; you need to consider how different kind of players will act on that.

* Don’t just hear us, we need you to listen. It is not the same.

 

Longer version

Ideas/thoughts:

* More inventory slots. And with more I mean several, like…. a new complete Tab. And charge a LOT for it. Example considering 8 new slots. 1M, 5M, 10M, 20M, 50M, 100M, 200M, 500M

* Appearance changes for credits.

* More unlocks requiring credits instead of CCs. Some may be character/legacy perks, but also some collection unlocks. I would start by season rewards and oddesen armors.

* Alternative: Change the unlock system, o more like upgrade it with a new feature. We now have infinite copies on any toon account wide after a CC payment. Add an option of SINGLE copies for large amounts of credits.

* Open the casino more often. Make a floating casino that change location (like rackgoul) and have some of the rewards be specific to location.

* Make the daily CM offer be purchasable with credits (and Bound to Legacy).

* Decoration copies for credits.

* Put more stuff to purchase in reputation vendors. Not everyone cares about decos or most of the low/medium quality cosmetics. For me farming rep was cool when I wanted crafting schematics.

* Add more things to Cartel vendors. Charge a good amount of credits on top of the certificates.

* Bring back amplifiers. Just remove the RNG part. Make it like you charge a FIXED amount of credits to set or change each amplifier but letting player choose. Of course, don’t change 20k, make it like 500k or 1M (needs to be a value F2P can afford tho, so stats are still equal).

* Make mod vendor (hide/seek) a legacy unlock. I’m happy spending credits there, but each update needing to make a mess moving so much mods or armor pieces around is a PITA. I would spend more if I could just go to the vendor with each toon and grab what I need without needing to do the mission several times.

* I also like the idea of limiting the how CM items are traded. It may need a lot of work to do it well without hurting regular use cases (like guild); but is still interesting to explore. Maybe limiting to 5 trades? That would give some margin allowing some moves while not letting items became a perpetual alt currency.

* Increasing repair cost might be good (it was not updated sin 6.X I think), just avoid all that stuff about changing cost of damage vs death.

* Crafting needs to revert as it was up to 5.X. Requiring too much grind and several steps to craft even simple things like aug kits only encourage the abuse of macros and bots. It needs to be simple, so most people won’t feel like it is a chore. Today you probably only have a small group of legit crafters battling a lot of bots. It used to be that bots mostly farmed mats in open world and the ones selling were easy to spot as bots too; now is mats and crafted stuff and is driving people out. One possible (and probably unpopular) solution would be to stop the mission/craft timer when the character logs out. I know, with current system is impossible, but as it was up to 5.X is totally doable. Only problem with bots would be the ones on fixed routes gathering; but they will have to move to the open (and expose to potential ban…. if bw were to implement game bans tho).

* MM/Nim cosmetics: Sell old ones for credits. Not only will be a credit sink, it will be slap to all those ***** that pays for runs. And the next time you want to implement a super cool cosmetic for the hardest group content make it so that at least in one point each players gets a solo part(according to role) that without completing you don’t get reward or achievements.

 

And there are probably many more things I  forgot from the many good ideas in this thread.

[Balameb]

Second Part: The actual catharsis. This will be me being an a-hole (or more than usual):

Why is so many people hopeful about Erics response here? For me Is just the usual half thruths we all knew since forever, mixed with a bunch of excuses about how they are still going to implement a bad idea.

Haven’t we learned from all previous fiascos? Don’t get me wrong, when Eric was promoted as Lead producer,  started to post more and 7.2 being better (still not good) as everything else from LotS, I was also a little hopeful. I thought that maybe I misjudged him and now that he has more decision ’power’ BW will actually Listen. But his response and BW empty promises feel more of the same crap we been getting for years.

Sure, it looks like they hear us, but they don’t Listen. And they have been making huge mistakes because of how stubborn they are. Examples from 6.0 PTS:

Gearing:

Testers: Gearing is too RNG heavy

BW: Yes, it might feel slow for some. We will adjust things to compensate the
RNG.

Testers: No need to compensate anything, just make a system that is not RNG.

BW: We added more loot so you have more chances to get each piece and you can gear fast.

Testers: Is not about speed, is about RNG. And that you cannot even get character spec right.

BW: Oh right, character spec…we will look into that (eventually), in the meantime have even more loot.

Testers: Is still hard to get the pieces we miss and it keeps the item rating down making it hard to progress.

BW: We hear you; we added a vendor that will help you target the pieces you are missing, in the meantime have even more loot.

Testers: The vendor is also RNG.

BW: We added more items with narrow scope, so is easier to target. Also added more loot in general.

Testers: Wouldn’t it be better if instead of gear for loot we get more currency and we can buy what we want?

BW: …

Testers: Hello?

BW: We are almost done with 6.0 amazing horizontal progression after a small vertical grind. You will love it. Everything in this update is because we hear you, now you can Play your way!!!!

Testers: But 80% of the horizontal stuff is useless crap, have you even been playing your own game?

BW: Please go read the articles of Daniel that will teach you how to play, including also how to PvP.

Testers: But then is not ‘play your way’. It is play how someone who is new here (and haven’t even seen a video of a pvp match or raid) who only read the new sets tooltips and imaged how the game is played.

BW: Release date fixed, nothing we can do. Don’t worry, we will gather more live data and change as it goes.

Testers: But…

BW: Oh, and don’t forget to try your reward for all your hard work. Ha! we still can’t stop laughing  at how funny it is. (A meme mount that was a joke toy and got old too fast).

 

 

For those who have not been in PTS or read most of what happens there and may think that was exaggerated comedy from my part, think again. It is actually how it went for 6.0 PTS testing. And btw, Eric (the current lead producer) was the main BW messenger at that time.

 

Amplifiers:

I will make it short this time: Too many variations on top of massive RNG. I think the best they did after feedback was lowering the step curve it had after a each try. Still after so much gear loot it was better to start over on a different piece most of the time.

Result: Most people ignoring it. Nice idea, poorly implemented.

 

Crafting:

Well, it could certainly take too long to illustrate the PTS feedback process and how we tried to avoid BW from massively f*ck up things with grade 11 crafting. It was like how gearing feedback went, except it was even worst:

* Many people (me included) provided hard math as feedback to show how wrong the system was and it was not as they say it should.

* Some tried to master some aspects of the system and provided more hard evidence of how it was insane. (it seems that for BW Dev team math and logic are some kind of magic more mysterious than the ways of the force).

* Because of the insane number of mats required, In order to test the system we had to actually exploit a PTS bug (deconstructing vendor medpacks for jawa junk) in order to get the mats because there was no possible way to get enough to test the system.

* They forgot to provide us with rare/limited mats.

* By the time they gave us the rare mats they fixed the bug and we got no way to keep getting enough base mats.

 

And what did we got in response?

Nothing? I wish… we actually got an answer so ludicrous that felt insulting. Here I will point to a post I made myself years ago quoting @EricMusco on that subject:

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/887371-crafting-and-crew-skill-mission-rewards-analysis-in-60/?do=findComment&comment=9453320

I see how angry I was back then and I will probably get a warning or ban for this, but I stand by every word I said.

So, after all that i consider Eric's post in this thread to be nothing more than a smoke screen.

 

When will I be hopeful again? When they start LISTENING, hearing us is not enough. When they actually go back on poor choices before going live with them. Right know it would require BW discarding the ludicrous and useless travel cost and focus on the bigger picture: too much credits ALREADY in the economy, Tax avoidance loopholes, credit sellers and bot paradise crafting system.

Sadly BW right know with their intentions is trying to fix a small water leak on a pipe while the house is still flooded up to the roof by past tsunamis.

[Darev]

22 hours ago, Traceguy said:

I have nearly 30 level 80s, and I do 100k CQP weekly on more than half of them. I am on DK 7 days a week for the CQP, not the credits. I get credits from Flag Ship plans. DK heroics could give me 0 credits, and I'd still make credits going there.

While it's not the same for everyone, there are a good amount of players like myself who will go there for the CQP. Also, a good chunk of level 80s will be farming DRMs

I use CZ198 for that.  Much faster than even DK (when you do all 5 heroics there).    10-15 minutes per toon as long as you don't have too many yahoos farming mobs in the wrong area.  For me, the 2 "long" heroics on DK mess up that time spent / reward equation.

[Darev]

18 hours ago, Balameb said:

Second Part: The actual catharsis. This will be me being an a-hole (or more than usual):

Why is so many people hopeful about Erics response here? For me Is just the usual half thruths we all knew since forever, mixed with a bunch of excuses about how they are still going to implement a bad idea.

Haven’t we learned from all previous fiascos? Don’t get me wrong, when Eric was promoted as Lead producer,  started to post more and 7.2 being better (still not good) as everything else from LotS, I was also a little hopeful. I thought that maybe I misjudged him and now that he has more decision ’power’ BW will actually Listen. But his response and BW empty promises feel more of the same crap we been getting for years.

Sure, it looks like they hear us, but they don’t Listen. And they have been making huge mistakes because of how stubborn they are. Examples from 6.0 PTS:

Gearing:

Testers: Gearing is too RNG heavy

BW: Yes, it might feel slow for some. We will adjust things to compensate the
RNG.

Testers: No need to compensate anything, just make a system that is not RNG.

BW: We added more loot so you have more chances to get each piece and you can gear fast.

Testers: Is not about speed, is about RNG. And that you cannot even get character spec right.

BW: Oh right, character spec…we will look into that (eventually), in the meantime have even more loot.

Testers: Is still hard to get the pieces we miss and it keeps the item rating down making it hard to progress.

BW: We hear you; we added a vendor that will help you target the pieces you are missing, in the meantime have even more loot.

Testers: The vendor is also RNG.

BW: We added more items with narrow scope, so is easier to target. Also added more loot in general.

Testers: Wouldn’t it be better if instead of gear for loot we get more currency and we can buy what we want?

BW: …

Testers: Hello?

BW: We are almost done with 6.0 amazing horizontal progression after a small vertical grind. You will love it. Everything in this update is because we hear you, now you can Play your way!!!!

Testers: But 80% of the horizontal stuff is useless crap, have you even been playing your own game?

BW: Please go read the articles of Daniel that will teach you how to play, including also how to PvP.

Testers: But then is not ‘play your way’. It is play how someone who is new here (and haven’t even seen a video of a pvp match or raid) who only read the new sets tooltips and imaged how the game is played.

BW: Release date fixed, nothing we can do. Don’t worry, we will gather more live data and change as it goes.

Testers: But…

BW: Oh, and don’t forget to try your reward for all your hard work. Ha! we still can’t stop laughing  at how funny it is. (A meme mount that was a joke toy and got old too fast).

 

 

For those who have not been in PTS or read most of what happens there and may think that was exaggerated comedy from my part, think again. It is actually how it went for 6.0 PTS testing. And btw, Eric (the current lead producer) was the main BW messenger at that time.

 

Amplifiers:

I will make it short this time: Too many variations on top of massive RNG. I think the best they did after feedback was lowering the step curve it had after a each try. Still after so much gear loot it was better to start over on a different piece most of the time.

Result: Most people ignoring it. Nice idea, poorly implemented.

 

Crafting:

Well, it could certainly take too long to illustrate the PTS feedback process and how we tried to avoid BW from massively f*ck up things with grade 11 crafting. It was like how gearing feedback went, except it was even worst:

* Many people (me included) provided hard math as feedback to show how wrong the system was and it was not as they say it should.

* Some tried to master some aspects of the system and provided more hard evidence of how it was insane. (it seems that for BW Dev team math and logic are some kind of magic more mysterious than the ways of the force).

* Because of the insane number of mats required, In order to test the system we had to actually exploit a PTS bug (deconstructing vendor medpacks for jawa junk) in order to get the mats because there was no possible way to get enough to test the system.

* They forgot to provide us with rare/limited mats.

* By the time they gave us the rare mats they fixed the bug and we got no way to keep getting enough base mats.

 

And what did we got in response?

Nothing? I wish… we actually got an answer so ludicrous that felt insulting. Here I will point to a post I made myself years ago quoting @EricMusco on that subject:

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/887371-crafting-and-crew-skill-mission-rewards-analysis-in-60/?do=findComment&comment=9453320

I see how angry I was back then and I will probably get a warning or ban for this, but I stand by every word I said.

So, after all that i consider Eric's post in this thread to be nothing more than a smoke screen.

 

When will I be hopeful again? When they start LISTENING, hearing us is not enough. When they actually go back on poor choices before going live with them. Right know it would require BW discarding the ludicrous and useless travel cost and focus on the bigger picture: too much credits ALREADY in the economy, Tax avoidance loopholes, credit sellers and bot paradise crafting system.

Sadly BW right know with their intentions is trying to fix a small water leak on a pipe while the house is still flooded up to the roof by past tsunamis.

I love this post.   That chat/conversation example is so on point it's crazy.   I had a similar post conversation about the RNG of amplifiers on PTS and other player testers wanted to argue with me saying "those are temp stats, not the real one they'll put in"  "That's a temp system, not the real one" or "they'll make tweaks to it"

None of those things ever happened and amplifiers became a hated mechanic specifically due to the RNG nature I was railing against.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Darev

[TrixxieTriss]

On 2/24/2023 at 8:50 AM, Balameb said:

Second Part: The actual catharsis. This will be me being an a-hole (or more than usual):

Why is so many people hopeful about Erics response here? For me Is just the usual half thruths we all knew since forever, mixed with a bunch of excuses about how they are still going to implement a bad idea.

Haven’t we learned from all previous fiascos? Don’t get me wrong, when Eric was promoted as Lead producer,  started to post more and 7.2 being better (still not good) as everything else from LotS, I was also a little hopeful. I thought that maybe I misjudged him and now that he has more decision ’power’ BW will actually Listen. But his response and BW empty promises feel more of the same crap we been getting for years.

Sure, it looks like they hear us, but they don’t Listen. And they have been making huge mistakes because of how stubborn they are. Examples from 6.0 PTS:

Gearing:

Testers: Gearing is too RNG heavy

BW: Yes, it might feel slow for some. We will adjust things to compensate the
RNG.

Testers: No need to compensate anything, just make a system that is not RNG.

BW: We added more loot so you have more chances to get each piece and you can gear fast.

Testers: Is not about speed, is about RNG. And that you cannot even get character spec right.

BW: Oh right, character spec…we will look into that (eventually), in the meantime have even more loot.

Testers: Is still hard to get the pieces we miss and it keeps the item rating down making it hard to progress.

BW: We hear you; we added a vendor that will help you target the pieces you are missing, in the meantime have even more loot.

Testers: The vendor is also RNG.

BW: We added more items with narrow scope, so is easier to target. Also added more loot in general.

Testers: Wouldn’t it be better if instead of gear for loot we get more currency and we can buy what we want?

BW: …

Testers: Hello?

BW: We are almost done with 6.0 amazing horizontal progression after a small vertical grind. You will love it. Everything in this update is because we hear you, now you can Play your way!!!!

Testers: But 80% of the horizontal stuff is useless crap, have you even been playing your own game?

BW: Please go read the articles of Daniel that will teach you how to play, including also how to PvP.

Testers: But then is not ‘play your way’. It is play how someone who is new here (and haven’t even seen a video of a pvp match or raid) who only read the new sets tooltips and imaged how the game is played.

BW: Release date fixed, nothing we can do. Don’t worry, we will gather more live data and change as it goes.

Testers: But…

BW: Oh, and don’t forget to try your reward for all your hard work. Ha! we still can’t stop laughing  at how funny it is. (A meme mount that was a joke toy and got old too fast).

 

 

For those who have not been in PTS or read most of what happens there and may think that was exaggerated comedy from my part, think again. It is actually how it went for 6.0 PTS testing. And btw, Eric (the current lead producer) was the main BW messenger at that time.

 

Amplifiers:

I will make it short this time: Too many variations on top of massive RNG. I think the best they did after feedback was lowering the step curve it had after a each try. Still after so much gear loot it was better to start over on a different piece most of the time.

Result: Most people ignoring it. Nice idea, poorly implemented.

 

Crafting:

Well, it could certainly take too long to illustrate the PTS feedback process and how we tried to avoid BW from massively f*ck up things with grade 11 crafting. It was like how gearing feedback went, except it was even worst:

* Many people (me included) provided hard math as feedback to show how wrong the system was and it was not as they say it should.

* Some tried to master some aspects of the system and provided more hard evidence of how it was insane. (it seems that for BW Dev team math and logic are some kind of magic more mysterious than the ways of the force).

* Because of the insane number of mats required, In order to test the system we had to actually exploit a PTS bug (deconstructing vendor medpacks for jawa junk) in order to get the mats because there was no possible way to get enough to test the system.

* They forgot to provide us with rare/limited mats.

* By the time they gave us the rare mats they fixed the bug and we got no way to keep getting enough base mats.

 

And what did we got in response?

Nothing? I wish… we actually got an answer so ludicrous that felt insulting. Here I will point to a post I made myself years ago quoting @EricMusco on that subject:

https://forums.swtor.com/topic/887371-crafting-and-crew-skill-mission-rewards-analysis-in-60/?do=findComment&comment=9453320

I see how angry I was back then and I will probably get a warning or ban for this, but I stand by every word I said.

So, after all that i consider Eric's post in this thread to be nothing more than a smoke screen.

 

When will I be hopeful again? When they start LISTENING, hearing us is not enough. When they actually go back on poor choices before going live with them. Right know it would require BW discarding the ludicrous and useless travel cost and focus on the bigger picture: too much credits ALREADY in the economy, Tax avoidance loopholes, credit sellers and bot paradise crafting system.

Sadly BW right know with their intentions is trying to fix a small water leak on a pipe while the house is still flooded up to the roof by past tsunamis.

Can confirm it was exactly as Balameb describes it.

I was there too, doing the same testing & providing similar feedback.

BioWare didn’t listen/understand/action anything on what the players actually said.

It’s why I don’t test on the PTS anymore. Total waste of mine & every other testers time.

Honestly, I’m surprised BioWare can still sucker enough people to do any testing at all after the 5.0, 6.0 & 7.0 debacles.

And all that extra loot that Balameb describes is exactly “why” we have an inflation problem now because many people just sold it at a vendor. 

That’s where most of the excess credits were generated before 7.0 was released. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Darev]

Since Coruscant heroics were mentioned as an example...when I use my pub side toons I run through those pretty frequently.  Not for credits, but usually for conquest and the completion rewards you get when you finish all 4.

The conquest gear you get in the crate, I deconstruct it.  I've never sold it.  Are they even worth anything?   Now I'm going to have to log in game to find out.

Even with all of that, the credits you get for the mission payout is peanuts compared to the billions in game floating around.

Those are the system generated credits that bioware, and players, are thinking is causing inflation?   That people who have been playing the game for 5+ years have been saving up the credits they've got from missions and are suddenly spending it all?

Please.   That's not it.

When players are able to sell end game gold augments for over a billion credits each (given the cost of the mats that go into them...if you buy them from the GTN anyway...I understand that.    Even then the cost of the mats are more than the final product).

You don't get those credits from mission payouts.

Selling the rewards you get on the GTN is a credit TRANSFER between players, and not part of the problem.

They're saying the problem is credit generation, which as far as I know is mostly from mission payout.

I'm still trying to find out what mission payouts are going to get me billions of credits and don't involve SELLING ANYTHING via the GTN or directly to other players.

 

Go ahead.   Prove me wrong.

(yes, I ended this post that way on purpose)

Edited February 25, 2023 by Darev

[Darev]

So, I did just log in and emptied my legacy bank of about 1/2 of my leftover 306 gold gear.  Some of it was empty shells (none of the named stuff), some were filled with green mods, some purple...a random assortment.

55 items.

474k

Actually more than I expected.

So...vendoring that stuff when it was actually endgame and dropping like crazy...I might have missed out on some credits.

 

 

However, 4K for a green 336 belt from a current armor crate...less conerned about that.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Darev

[TrixxieTriss]

36 minutes ago, Darev said:

So, I did just log in and emptied my legacy bank of about 1/2 of my leftover 306 gold gear.  Some of it was empty shells (none of the named stuff), some were filled with green mods, some purple...a random assortment.

55 items.

474k

Actually more than I expected.

So...vendoring that stuff when it was actually endgame and dropping like crazy...I might have missed out on some credits.

 

 

However, 4K for a green 336 belt from a current armor crate...less conerned about that.

Yeah, it’s definitely not the new gear, especially considering the drop rate is fairly low compared to 6.x drop rate.

Im still convinced the major reason that inflation is so high is from all the gear that dropped during 6.x and the fact the amplifier credit sink was poorly designed & then ultimately removed with no replacement. 

As someone who played the GTN extensively during 5.x and 6.x, I saw the inflation really start to accelerate into hyperinflation in 6.x. Prior to that there was inflation, but no where near the lvls it reached in 6.x.

Im sure you and I debated it a few years ago. Can’t remember if we ever identified what was causing it at the time or agreed on a solution. But in hindsight, I really do think it was all the extra gear being sold + conquest rewards at the time. 

I knew inflation was really out of hand when I was able to sell crafted dyes for a billion credits. And I remember sounding that alarm bell 2+ years ago. Sad that it took BioWare 2+ years to even admit there is a problem. 

What’s worse is I don’t think they even understand that the problem isn’t the game creating too many credits now.
It’s all the credits created during 6.x that have no where to go without proper credit sinks targeting those accumulated credits.

What’s made the situation worse than it needs to be, is inflation pushed items above the 1 billion GTN cap and forced players to start trading outside of the GTN. Thereby avoiding the 8% GTN tax system. So with that credit mechanic basically broken, BioWare have lost their best credit sink due to incompetence or just not caring about the game’s economy. 

What really annoys me, is their plan to nickel & dime new or less wealthy players. This will have zero effect on inflation until they address the elephant in the room. Which is all the credits created during 6.x that are just being moved around the game from player to player. Unless they fix the GTN tax avoidance loophole first, everything else is pointless. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by TrixxieTriss

[Berdysh]

Way to make certain new players all quit while the old ones don't even notice the cost. If you're trying to kill the game off, just shut it down.

[Achnaattwo]

2 hours ago, Berdysh said:

Way to make certain new players all quit while the old ones don't even notice the cost. If you're trying to kill the game off, just shut it down.

true ,  how many new players are actually frugal with their credits ? when they want new armor as soon as they can, expand their inventory, or get a mount.  Most new players are Free to play to check out the game, takes some a while to even know they can shorten the quick travel times and legacy perks.

Once they learn about those, they'll be asking "how to make more credits?"  and  now have billions, oh  my  . . isn't that what we're trying to tame down. And if they don't go for that route , yeah, probably quit

The road they're building to attack the economy, is going straight over a cliff 😲

[Balameb]

10 hours ago, Darev said:

So, I did just log in and emptied my legacy bank of about 1/2 of my leftover 306 gold gear.  Some of it was empty shells (none of the named stuff), some were filled with green mods, some purple...a random assortment.

55 items.

474k

Actually more than I expected.

So...vendoring that stuff when it was actually endgame and dropping like crazy...I might have missed out on some credits.

You may have missed fast credits, but desconstruction was better in terms of actual value. The embers and jawa junk/scraps used on lower grade mats was worth more(still is). Problem is lots of people are lazy and just vendoring provided a more than decent paycheck.

Quote

However, 4K for a green 336 belt from a current armor crate...less conerned about that.

Quote

Yeah, it’s definitely not the new gear, especially considering the drop rate is fairly low compared to 6.x drop rate.

Certainly less worty. But still not nothing. Consider this, a belt made with hyde & seek mods (equivalent to purple gear) cost only 200k. Pieces with enhancements (that would sell for more than a belt) cost 400k. If people do not have many alts with several specs, their NEED for tech fragments and the other currencies is not that much and will prefer to vendor new loot (i know, the TF exchanged for gold mats are worth it, but as people are lazy i'm sure that some will still prefer to vendor).

 

9 hours ago, TrixxieTriss said:

 

Im still convinced the major reason that inflation is so high is from all the gear that dropped during 6.x and the fact the amplifier credit sink was poorly designed & then ultimately removed with no replacement. 

As someone who played the GTN extensively during 5.x and 6.x, I saw the inflation really start to accelerate into hyperinflation in 6.x. Prior to that there was inflation, but no where near the lvls it reached in 6.x.

Because of my distate for 6.0 crafting I left and only came back a couple times during those years, but also noticed that each time the inflation was worst by order of magnitude. Particularly i think it was the second part, from Steam launch to end of 2021 is when i noticed more that my hundreads millions backup credits in legacy storage were worth sh*t. Of course since i know my way around crafting in general and kept a good amount of mats i was billionare in no time.

 

Back to 5.X, i think the inflation there was way lower because crafting got easy competition. A whale could buy all the augments and kits in the GTN trying to increase the price but as it was too easy for even newbies to make more and in decent quatities  there were constant renewal and constant undercut competition. Now doing the same is way more time consuming for the honest crafter (no botting or even macros), people just won't bother that much and most newer players won't even try.

 

Quote

 

Im sure you and I debated it a few years ago. Can’t remember if we ever identified what was causing it at the time or agreed on a solution. But in hindsight, I really do think it was all the extra gear being sold + conquest rewards at the time. 

I knew inflation was really out of hand when I was able to sell crafted dyes for a billion credits. And I remember sounding that alarm bell 2+ years ago. Sad that it took BioWare 2+ years to even admit there is a problem. 

 

 

During 5.X it was indeed identified. The loot from open world was massive, specially in heroic areas. That was one of the reasons heroics was the best source of credits for any player back then. I even remember thinking that loot in FP was worst compared to heroics.

And what is sad is that by 6.0 BW did change that and implemented deconstruction of new gear thinking that if people deconstruct they will just don't vendor. That was a clear example of BW implementing a system without thinking how ALL people will (or IF) use it. And the reason they have not admited to it is probably that in top of that, the original amount of gear for 6.X was not going to be that massive, they increased it way out of proportion to compensate RNG.

So far i think they only admited two mistakes in terms of economy: conquest credits and convenience reducing costs not only time. Those mistakes are the tip of the iceberg, things players (and even testers) were not thinking so they got no warnings and can go by as more 'natural' mistakes. But they are still afraid of admiting all their major mistakes during 6.0 that people did warned them would be a problem.

Quote

 

What’s worse is I don’t think they even understand that the problem isn’t the game creating too many credits now.
It’s all the credits created during 6.x that have no where to go without proper credit sinks targeting those accumulated credits.

What’s made the situation worse than it needs to be, is inflation pushed items above the 1 billion GTN cap and forced players to start trading outside of the GTN. Thereby avoiding the 8% GTN tax system. So with that credit mechanic basically broken, BioWare have lost their best credit sink due to incompetence or just not caring about the game’s economy. 

What really annoys me, is their plan to nickel & dime new or less wealthy players. This will have zero effect on inflation until they address the elephant in the room. Which is all the credits created during 6.x that are just being moved around the game from player to player. Unless they fix the GTN tax avoidance loophole first, everything else is pointless.

 

I sometimes do wonder if they want to fix things. This thread might look like they do, but their intention was only for people to test the PTS what they already decided (and we all know won't help); they did not count on so many people showing them with LOGIC and REAL NUMBERS how wrong they are approaching the issue. Eric was forced to post, but is just a smoke screen as usual.

We all know one of the problems with credit sellers are bots farms. Yet, they launch 7.0 with the same crafting system that made the problem 100 times worst. It is still 1 year after 7.0 and we are still on the same ludicrous crafting system and they don't even have a fix or new system for PTS.

New augments easier and cheaper to make would solve practically half of the problem of credit sellers because those that purchase to get augments would be able to afford them without going the 3rd party route.

Current (aprox) prices in Star Forge:

Gold augment: arround 1 bill each

Cartel Pack: arround 300 mill

(i have seen some volatility the last couple months in packs, so it i may be a little off depending the day)

Any subscriber can purchase 3 packs per month without spending extra cash. At current rates at best will afford 1 gold augment without spending extra IRL money. Solution to BIS gear fast in the mind of someone lazy with some cash (and a little naive in terms of of risk assesment): 3rd party credit sellers.

Now, if instead of 1 billion a piece for BIS augment it would cost you less than 1 billion the complete set, what would happen?

1- Without additional sinks, Cartel Packs may see a price increase as current credits not spent on augments/mats will shift focus (* more on this latter)

2- No one would need to resort to 3rd parties to get BIS augment because it would be achivable by anyone, even the lazy ones.

(*) We will still need proper sinks, fix tax loopholes and also find ways to discourage the perpetual use of cosmetics as currencies. I think your idea of limiting how CM items can be traded could be the key. I'm inclined to limit the amount of trades like Lost Ark does. They limit all cosmetics and even gear to X amounts of trades (usually from 1 to 3) (and in Lost ark there is no p2p trade, all needs to be done in action house/market, so no tax avoidance possible). Sure, lost ark is p2w, but that aspect is mostly in the crafting mats everyone needs to grind; as long a swtor don't go that route we should be able to mimic some of other games systems/safeguards.

 

But in general, i think the game needs to stop creating the 'NEED'(even if its actually optional) for high amount of credits for BIS gear. While writing this post i also remember when the large number of credits during 5.X became more evidet in the economy: With Ossus. Up GC tier 4 things were mostly controlled. But when 252/258 introduced a massive and repetive grind with an alternative shortcut in crafting from extreamly rare mats from Nim Ops that could be traded in GTN we suddenly saw high amount of credits flowing to those few that got them, that in turn soon provoked an increase in cosmetics (packs and hypercrates).

[Irnini]

On 2/23/2023 at 10:38 PM, Balameb said:

* MM/Nim cosmetics: Sell old ones for credits. Not only will be a credit sink, it will be slap to all those ***** that pays for runs. And the next time you want to implement a super cool cosmetic for the hardest group content make it so that at least in one point each players gets a solo part(according to role) that without completing you don’t get reward or achievements.

 

I love this idea (if price is high enough to keep them unique). They can be called Replicas like Ranked PvP ones to keep real ones obtainable only from Ops. What's more, buying from Vendor won't give any achievement or title. People still buy them from sale runners so why not? I would buy Crest or Wings from Vendor even for 50-100bil myself (if I ever manage to collect as much because I don't buy anything except sub for real money). Even if only 10-20 players bought them, the outflow of money would be quite big.