Premades ruin PvP

[Enomars]

Hmm, all very interesting stuff here. I wonder if Broadsword could introduce a legacy wide Valor rank:  


If a player has valor of 80 or higher they would automatically be in the harder matches Premade or not.  Groupe players would AUTOMATICALLY be given the level 80 rating.  

THEN all of the players with sub 80 Legacy valor would be in the NOOB PvP que.

This would solve three problems:
1.  New players learning warzones would be less likely to be destroyed or spawn camped leading to a more welcoming environment to PvP for Noobs. 
2.  Premades will always have a challenge. 
3.  Good solo players would have only at least slightly skilled players on their team. 

I do not choose to group up myself and I am Valor 100 on at least one toon so I would end up in the harder queuing group but at least I would know that my team is at least somewhat competent. 

I don't mind losing I just want the match to be close.   70 kills to 12 kills is kind broken. 

[Lord_Malganus]

The simple and logical solution is separate Q's.

It would also increase PvP participation.

[Enomars]

Well i will tell you right now. The average player cannot kill me.  I am accidentally playing madness and that class is beyond broken.  Very few players can 1 v 1 madness players.  Certainly not new players.  So while premades ruin pvp.   Skilled players ruin noobs.  
 

removing premades will help players like me GREATLY!  
 

perhaps a way to balance skilled players vs new players

 

[Prapcaster]

37 minutes ago, Enomars said:

Well i will tell you right now. The average player cannot kill me.  I am accidentally playing madness and that class is beyond broken.  Very few players can 1 v 1 madness players.  Certainly not new players.  So while premades ruin pvp.   Skilled players ruin noobs.  
 

removing premades will help players like me GREATLY!  
 

perhaps a way to balance skilled players vs new players

 

Okay Enomaster the reason for that is because there's what...15 actual pvpers left across the actual game? I'd wager less then that. You play balance which is the most overtuned spec in swtor history while fully geared out. You don't have a higher skill level then everything they just have a 280 IR at most with usually no augments. Didn't you already get cooked on theorycrafters about this man?

Your advice to the devs about what they should do while not terrible advice is nothing but blatant dillusion. This is a decade of these trash tier overpaid developers doign nothing to help pvp. They've been gutting content since 8v8 ranked was removed and they're not gonna start adding new balancing features because a mid balance sage that couldn't cut in the pvp community until they all left told them to.

[Lord_Malganus]

So a meta toon vs an unskilled noob can be avoided how? What criteria defines a new player?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Lord_Malganus

[Lord_Malganus]

9 minutes ago, Prapcaster said:

This is a decade of these trash tier overpaid developers doign nothing to help pvp.

😆

[Enomars]

50 minutes ago, Prapcaster said:

Okay Enomaster the reason for that is because there's what...15 actual pvpers left across the actual game? I'd wager less then that. You play balance which is the most overtuned spec in swtor history while fully geared out. You don't have a higher skill level then everything they just have a 280 IR at most with usually no augments. Didn't you already get cooked on theorycrafters about this man?

 

I couldn't care less about what players in theory crafters have to say.   Entitled players who don't actually say anything useful.  The only reason i play balance was because of the horrid nerf Telekinetics got last year. One of the worst nerfs to any spec ever.  I just swapped over to balance because it was there. 

 

[Enomars]

53 minutes ago, Lord_Malganus said:

So a meta toon vs an unskilled noob can be avoided how? What criteria defines a new player?

I already mentioned a solution. valor as a gauge.   legacy wide.  all players with 80 valor (converted to legacy) or less would be slid into one tier.  while 80 and above an grouped players would be in a different tier. 

 

[Prapcaster]

2 minutes ago, Enomars said:

I couldn't care less about what players in theory crafters have to say.   Entitled players who don't actually say anything useful.  The only reason i play balance was because of the horrid nerf Telekinetics got last year. One of the worst nerfs to any spec ever.  I just swapped over to balance because it was there. 

 

TK is one of the hardest hitting specs still in pvp with one of the best cleaves in the entire game so it sounds like a skill issue. I play once a week at most and I'm rarely dropping below 15k dps in pvp. Your excuse is the same as the engineering abusers.

[Enomars]

Just now, Prapcaster said:

TK is one of the hardest hitting specs still in pvp with one of the best cleaves in the entire game so it sounds like a skill issue. I play once a week at most and I'm rarely dropping below 15k dps in pvp. Your excuse is the same as the engineering abusers.

 CURRENTLY. they were nerfed HARD last year around this time.  ask around if you don't know. 120k crits on watchdog. 

they have been buffed twice as that nerf too hard of a nerf.   If you don't know this then you have not been paying attention or have not been consistently playing the spec.  

And as I said many times before it is not a skill issue.  I can 1 v 1 many players no problems.   If you want you and i can go 10 rounds and I wipe the floor with you too. EnoMaster Starforge.  /who Eno its probably me.    we can meet at Lenore's rishi stronghold.   I have yet to lose a 1 v 1 at Lenore's rishi Stronghold. 

The problem is Premades are hurting pvp.  While I don't care one way or another about losing. I just want a fair shot. I want the pvp community to thrive.  One way to do that is to valor vs valor balancing act linked to the que.  


 

[Prapcaster]

11 minutes ago, Enomars said:

 CURRENTLY. they were nerfed HARD last year around this time.  ask around if you don't know. 120k crits on watchdog. 

they have been buffed twice as that nerf too hard of a nerf.   If you don't know this then you have not been paying attention or have not been consistently playing the spec.  

And as I said many times before it is not a skill issue.  I can 1 v 1 many players no problems.   If you want you and i can go 10 rounds and I wipe the floor with you too. EnoMaster Starforge.  /who Eno its probably me.    we can meet at Lenore's rishi stronghold.   I have yet to lose a 1 v 1 at Lenore's rishi Stronghold. 

The problem is Premades are hurting pvp.  While I don't care one way or another about losing. I just want a fair shot. I want the pvp community to thrive.  One way to do that is to valor vs valor balancing act linked to the que.  


 

Brother I ain't readin allat 

[Lord_Malganus]

27 minutes ago, Enomars said:

I already mentioned a solution. valor as a gauge.   legacy wide.  all players with 80 valor (converted to legacy) or less would be slid into one tier.  while 80 and above an grouped players would be in a different tier. 

 

Sorry I missed that.

Unfortunately ignoring player input and ignoring current PvP design is status quo.

[Prapcaster]

6 minutes ago, Lord_Malganus said:

Sorry I missed that.

Unfortunately ignoring player input and ignoring current PvP design is status quo.

His idea also wouldn't work. I mostly play on sorc and jug and do well with them since they were my mains since launch. But I occasionally like to play operative and I'll be real it's an ugly sight to see me playing them lmao. So should I be thrown into the "elite queue" because I play well on two classes?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Prapcaster

[septru]

7 hours ago, Prapcaster said:

Musco honestly needs to move onto other projects.

I actually argued for the same thing when BioWare first announced that might have some layoffs when moving to BroadSword. 

 

I have nothing personally against Musco. He seems like a nice guy. But the community management in this game has been utter dog water since day 1. There's no utter profession where you can fail so terribly at your job, and somehow get a promotion to game producer. 

[krackcommando]

9 hours ago, Enomars said:

I already mentioned a solution. valor as a gauge.   legacy wide.  all players with 80 valor (converted to legacy) or less would be slid into one tier.  while 80 and above an grouped players would be in a different tier. 

 

worthless solution. game's 12(?) years old. you could rapid shots (auto attack) your way to 100 valor 10x over by this point. and that's before valor buffs. furthermore (and more importantly), there are already two queues (arena and WZ) splitting that into 4 queues, whether it's grp and solo, or -80 valor and +80 valor, is patently absurd. in fact, all it would do is placate the lemmings who only queue for the seasons and want nothing whatsoever to do with pvp. as you are NOT one of those players, I fail to see how this is a solution for your particular issue or for the existence of pvp at large.

 

9 hours ago, septru said:

I have nothing personally against Musco. He seems like a nice guy. But the community management in this game has been utter dog water since day 1. There's no utter profession where you can fail so terribly at your job, and somehow get a promotion to game producer. 

major assumption there is that your metrics for success/failure are the same as BW's were. think of it like this: the NFL commissioner is a job that purports to be the leader of the NFL policy making, PR, etc. It's really none of these things. He's paid MILLIONS of dollars every year to be the public face and targeting dummy for the owners. He takes the shots from the press and fans for bad policy moves that the owners tell him to do. that's your community whatever role person.

now what is more alarming is that he's now (head?) design team (or so I read on this highly reliable forum 😄). if he was making design decisions when 7.2 was decided upon, when the 10 year anniversary was decided upon (with almost no content), when madness spec was finalized...i mean...well...yeah. that's bad. it's not uniquely bad as I think bubble stun when it first went live was the most colossal display of design incompetence ever in any game I've played. but yeah. that's bad.

Edited October 11, 2023 by krackcommando
typo

[Lord_Malganus]

9 hours ago, Prapcaster said:

His idea also wouldn't work. I mostly play on sorc and jug and do well with them since they were my mains since launch. But I occasionally like to play operative and I'll be real it's an ugly sight to see me playing them lmao. So should I be thrown into the "elite queue" because I play well on two classes?

Your right.

[Enomars]

10 hours ago, krackcommando said:

worthless solution. game's 12(?) years old. you could rapid shots (auto attack) your way to 100 valor 10x over by this point. and that's before valor buffs. furthermore (and more importantly), there are already two queues (arena and WZ) splitting that into 4 queues, whether it's grp and solo, or -80 valor and +80 valor, is patently absurd.

I get what you are saying. but lets say someone started playing SWTOR this week?

they queue for pvp and get completely squashed. 

I completely understand a player can hammer shot their why to 100 valor but at least that player has an idea of how to play the game.  

Also you said it would split it up into 4 queues. Technically it is already 4 queues... cept its not.  What would happen is a slight balance. all of the premades would only be filled in with experience players and the opposing team would again be experienced players.  Leading to a more competitive match 

Sub 80 noobs, Meanwhile are learning to hammer shot their way to 80 valor.  They have an opportunity to test the waters. feel out how the classes work. learn how to kite.  

I know this is not the ultimate fix but it would certainly help. 

 

[Enomars]

19 hours ago, Prapcaster said:

His idea also wouldn't work. I mostly play on sorc and jug and do well with them since they were my mains since launch. But I occasionally like to play operative and I'll be real it's an ugly sight to see me playing them lmao. So should I be thrown into the "elite queue" because I play well on two classes?

i get what you are saying. i literally play every single class in the game. It ain't pretty if I que as a Shadow tank or infiltration.  Two cloaks is good but give me a ranged class. get me out of that melee pile. 

if que by valor don't forget everyone on your team is also qued by valor there would be no noobs on your team. 

Like for real, the 4 man queues would be better for sure. but 4 players with 4 noobs can still completely dominate a match of 2 experienced players on the other team with 6 goobers running around.  

 

[krackcommando]

45 minutes ago, Enomars said:

Also you said it would split it up into 4 queues. Technically it is already 4 queues... cept its not.  What would happen is a slight balance. all of the premades would only be filled in with experience players and the opposing team would again be experienced players.  Leading to a more competitive match 

arenas, wzs. that's two queues.

now you want areas for -80 valor and arenas for +80 valor; that's two.  plus WZs for -80 value and WZs for +80 valor; that's two more for a total of four queues. what am I missing? you're doubling the number of queues with the same population in the current two queue system.

[Samcuu]

38 minutes ago, Enomars said:

if que by valor don't forget everyone on your team is also qued by valor there would be no noobs on your team. 

Valor is per toon this idea wouldn't stop one person or a group of ppl starting new toons boosting them to 80 and then dominating noobs. That isn't fun or interesting to me but it's totally something a group of ppl playing would do especially to dodge real competition. I know of ppl who keep their lowbies at 75 with full set bonuses and dominate lowbies in the same fashion. 

[Samcuu]

1 hour ago, Enomars said:

lets say someone started playing SWTOR this week?

No sane person would start playing an mmo and think they should be anywhere near good enough to compete in pvp the first week lol. There's helping newer players and then there's holding their hand. There should be a balance in both. I know of many newer players that never played at launch and came along later who took an interest in pvp. And many of them became proficient and quite good in the game. They weren't hand held by the devs, they got into pvp got rekt but enjoyed the mode enough to reach out to experienced players that helped them grow and get better at the game. We don't need to provide some sort of crutch for players who only pvp for the rewards. If you like pvp u like it and you'll learn how to beat other players.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Samcuu

[Prapcaster]

3 hours ago, Enomars said:

i get what you are saying. i literally play every single class in the game. It ain't pretty if I que as a Shadow tank or infiltration.  Two cloaks is good but give me a ranged class. get me out of that melee pile. 

if que by valor don't forget everyone on your team is also qued by valor there would be no noobs on your team. 

Like for real, the 4 man queues would be better for sure. but 4 players with 4 noobs can still completely dominate a match of 2 experienced players on the other team with 6 goobers running around.  

 

Look at it this way. On my original server at launch there was this balance sage that was just the worst player you've ever seen. I mean present day michael j fox could probably play swtor better then him. The running joke saying with him was "You can two shot him but he's a really nice guy so we don't mess with him". This guy also happened to be the server first for elite warlord. Now would it be fair to put that guy into the harder bracket because of his legacy valor? Hell no.

I get your frustration I share it the 8 man premades were a boneheaded idea from the devs and it's hurting pvp to a point. However what's hurting pvp even more is having no competetive mode for these people to go in. And there's no initiative for new players to log on. Seasons were a mediocre attempt to create even less work.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Prapcaster

[krackcommando]

38 minutes ago, Prapcaster said:

However what's hurting pvp even more is having no competetive mode for these people to go in. And there's no initiative for new players to log on. Seasons were a mediocre attempt to create even less work.

do you really think <reign in ideas not known> wouldn't be doing the exact same thing in WZs regardless of the existence of rated? I actually don't think SF is bad in the first place. But honestly, they're the only ones that are a nuisance in WZs, and that's b/c they don't play to win. not that they're stacking the deck. iunno. when I do WZs, I don't get the same guys all the time.

I did do arenas late night the other night and same squirrel 4m was in the queue for like 2 hours. and there's like 6 other ppl in the queue. so that killed it. tbh, most ppl on SF when the grp in 3m or 4m don't stick around for 2 hours. iunno. that was a new experience at least on SF. 

then there's the sin tank who sits in stealth until gas who i reported and recorded last week. the videos remain unviewed. only shared url with BS. so...yeah. eesh.

[Enomars]

sorry i have to mention it every time. to be clear i said make valor legacy wide

 

[Enomars]

4 hours ago, krackcommando said:

now you want areas for -80 valor and arenas for +80 valor; that's two.  plus WZs for -80 value and WZs for +80 valor; that's two more for a total of four queues. what am I missing? you're doubling the number of queues with the same population in the current two queue system.

no it is currently 4 ques.  Premades are supposed to only match up against premades by design however this is not happening.  

Premades filled with randos  arenas 
Premade filled with randos warzones. 

solo ques arenas 
solo ques warzones. 

the problem is that these four are intertwined making the game unbalanced.