Follow-ups on PvP in 7.2

[krackcommando]

12 hours ago, Mycroft-Tarkin said:

They never said that, they said matchmaker would prefer premade vs premade, but if that isn't possible it will prioritise creating a match even premade vs pug

 

That's the same how regs matchmaker works now and has worked for a long time, only change is group size limit goes from 4 to 8

indeed. the public face of all of this is that they want to encourage/push players to group up to play a team game. basically, they've given up on the solo push.

I was a loud voice for solo queues back in the day. and solo arenas turned out to be the ONLY form of rated arenas that was able to maintain any sort of participation. that alone should sound as a warning about what the player base of game is. as if it needs pointing out since 90% of this game's content caters to solo game play or offers throttled-down content for solo play.

anyway...BW does state that they are doing this to encourage team play and to "encourage" players to learn how to play as a team in a team game. make friends. be social in an MMO. I just have to say...man. BW takes approaches to these things that are just 180 degrees from what I think on all of these matters. iunno what they think is going to happen here. I can tell you what happened when ranked WZs were a thing. tons of teams queued up for a few weeks or a month. one or two teams rose to the top and absolutely crushed everyone else. "everyone else" stopped queuing completely. the top two teams made appointments to play each other. and the rest of the queue was filled with "kick-ball" style nights that would eventually get crashed by an optimized premade (either one of the aforementioned guild or some flamboyant unicorns).

hell, back in the day, the server would erupt in anger when just a 4m LD50 squad was in reg queue and spawn camped. or a flamboyant unicorns guild queue synced. we've been here before, BW. casuals are going to cry louder and harder, and fewer of them are going to queue. and funneling GS players into that cluster<bleep> is just pouring gasoline onto the fire.

lastly, having 8 GS players team up to play just guarantees that they'll have no good players on their team when they run into that 8m team of actual pvpers.

hell. prum and biggs and scoob, and shek and so on can maintain their cancelled subs and just go f2p, form a grp and destroy your queue just out of spite. hell, it's what I would do. it's such a glaring hole in this new system. like...dude. what are you doing here?

[septru]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

prum and biggs and scoob, and shek and so on can maintain their cancelled subs and just go f2p, form a grp and destroy your queue just out of spite.

On 12/8/2022 at 10:24 PM, Raazmir said:

Frankly the best thing most of the posters on this forum could do for PVP is go find another game to invest their self worth in because all they've done here is make it worse. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by septru

[krackcommando]

10 hours ago, SaerethDL said:

Why should ranked get all the cool rewards and regs nothing at all? I play just as hard as you do in regs and I've honed my skills. I shouldn't have to put up with such toxicity of ranked just to earn some cool rewards for my participation and efforts.  I never said the rewards had to be as good as ranked rewards but regs were so unrewarding as it was. Under the new system if people refuse to put in effort they wont progress as fast as good players so it will definitely give them some incentive to play better.  You guys had the gravy train so long and now it's over.. can't wait to earn them sweet, sweet, rewards! 

1. that's how competition works. that's why there's a gold, silver, bronze, and then a participation ribbon. gold is more valuable and exclusive than bronze and so forth down the line.
2. if you're good (as you claim) and you don't insult other players, I find it very difficult to believe that rated players are being "toxic" toward you. if you get globalled or go off and do your own thing, then you are going to be shamed. incidentally, warrior culture is a shame culture. competitive sports are "warrior cultures." you receive honor for successes and shame for breaches of cultural ethics (like doing the wrong thing, under geared, etc.). that's literally how human civilization has functioned for at least 5+ thousand years.

I remember losing a rated HB match to Uncensored (caprica's guild) back in the day. it was a really tight back and forth match; we were up 2 goals at one point. they won in the end by getting the ball at spawn and just turtling under a scaffold with guard and two heals and a few taunts. at the end of the game, the first thing everyone did was /say "good game." I was heated b/c I felt like they stopped playing the game and got a cheap win. so I said something like "yeah right" or "if you say so." my team slapped me down hard in voice for that. and rightfully so. there are certain expectations about what you do, how you do it, and what you say in every (sub)culture. and when you don't know the (unspoken) rules or don't care about them (e.g., break the first stun, don't have the right gear, etc.) then you are going to be shamed. that's not toxicity perse. that's just how communities self-correct and self-police, and it's both nature AND nurture. I'm sorry someone slapped you down. but even a **** like nikanna makes you better.

[slowdude]

50 minutes ago, septru said:

we all just reinstalled even though we have no sub just to bully people like this guy

 

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

form a grp and destroy your queue just out of spite

 

49 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

I find it very difficult to believe that rated players are being "toxic" toward you

What hypocrisy. It seems that humiliating and insulting everyone who does not belong to the small ranked club is not toxicity.

Edited December 10, 2022 by slowdude

[septru]

8 minutes ago, slowdude said:

small ranked club

There are no ranked clubs anymore. There is no toxicity anymore. Ranked is getting removed and its going to solve all of your problems.

Edited December 10, 2022 by septru

[slowdude]

The presence or absence will not prevent ranked players from destroying warzones. They even managed to kill the game mode that brought them pleasure. 

[septru]

3 minutes ago, slowdude said:

ranked players

What if i take off my flair? Does that make me an ordinary player?

Edited December 10, 2022 by septru

[slowdude]

It doesn't matter anymore. On the agenda the destruction of all pvp in the game. And again, ranked players and their premades will have nothing to do with it. After all, BW just summed it up, as it was with ranked 8v8, and now with solo arenas. If the players themselves make the mode extremely unpopular, then moderation or improvement does not make sense.

Edited December 10, 2022 by slowdude

[JediMasterAlex]

20 minutes ago, slowdude said:

It doesn't matter anymore. On the agenda the destruction of all pvp in the game. And again, ranked players and their premades will have nothing to do with it. After all, BW just summed it up, as it was with ranked 8v8, and now with solo arenas. If the players themselves make the mode extremely unpopular, then moderation or improvement does not make sense.

Do you think that competitive pvpers in swtor are uniquely horrible people? Do you think the game turned them into monsters? Do you think something about this game attracts them? What is the theory here?

I'll tell you my theory. Swtor's hardcore pvp community is no different from any other hardcore pvp community in any other game (other than being smaller than most). When there are stakes involved in high level competition, and people care about their rating and rewards, people can get emotional, which is as it should be. In other words, it's completely normal to be mad when you lose a game. An environment where no one cares about losing is totally counterproductive to fun pvp. A game mode where everyone is just happy and gets along is anathema to competitive pvp. We already have pve and rp for that if that's your thing.

Edited December 10, 2022 by JediMasterAlex

[Weswhitebore]

11 hours ago, SaerethDL said:

The statement from bioware in the OP says otherwise

Lmao.  Are you forgetting that this Bioware team is the same team that left 7.0 broken for months with game breaking bugs?? Are you forgetting that this Bioware team is the same team that thought CONQUEST CREDITS was the main cause for the poor economy in the game? Guess what, they reduced conquest credits. Guess what, it's still a major problem. Even if they remove conquest credits entirely, it won't solve the issue because it's not the main issue like they claim. Half of the people in this thread have state more evidence than Bioware has in months about anything.

 

11 hours ago, SaerethDL said:

I bore witness to their toxic environment throughout many seasons, not just torwards me but towards other players.. it's just an objective truth at this point and bioware confirmed it. I watched kogass stream, they were toxic to kogass on a daily basis my man. They even went to his stream to troll him.

Did you bear witness to the toxic environment throughout many seasons or did you just hear about the "toxic environment"? Bearing witness and hearsay are different. Bioware cannot confirm anything considering they failed to moderate anything, the only thing they can confirm is failure of proper moderation on their part. Ah yes, because a few people decided to be toxic to Kogass, all the sudden the entire community is toxic, typical.

You are on a witch hunt. Classic Boy Who Cried Wolf and 1692 Salem behavior is cast  towards the Ranked community. Bioware, is not John Proctor in this situation, but the witch, Abigail that convinced the community against him, Ranked community is John Proctor. John Proctor was a good man, honest, upright, and blunt-spoken, much like many of the Ranked players in the community. However, he did have some bad traits, one of them lead to an affair, which is what the witch used to put him in the dog house and on trial, where his enemies, her included, could tarnish his name, like the ranked haters do. The affair for the Ranked community is the few toxic players and cheaters, how Bioware used that is, not to moderate said toxic players or avoiding giving it the proper treatment, creating an illusion that the Ranked community is toxic and to blame. John Proctor tells the truth about his affair with Abigail and condemns the act, meaning the Ranked Community does out the toxic players, however, witchcraft was still a crime which needed no evidence, a no witness crime so to speak, and were automatically guilty. Abigail provided fake, not real, spiritual "evidence" to make this accusation against John and used his enemies to do so.  Bioware and ranked haters, much like Abigail used this to their benefit, seeing as they don't have to provide any actual evidence or mislead people. Just like John Proctor, Ranked was witch hunted and dispatched of, now they can do as they please and the ranked haters can rejoice.

 

12 hours ago, SaerethDL said:

You guys had the gravy train so long and now it's over.. can't wait to earn them sweet, sweet, rewards! 

The gravy train. As yes, because playing against other competent, knowledgeable, and skilled players, for the top earned rewards locked behind mainly skill, compared to a pool of incompetent, non-caring, lacking, not as skillful players in regs is all  the sudden the gravy train. Man you are really sipping the ranked hate kool-aid.

[Weswhitebore]

1 hour ago, slowdude said:

 If the players themselves make the mode extremely unpopular, then moderation or improvement does not make sense.

Tell me you don't know what moderation or the role of a moderator is within a community, without telling me you don't know what it is. Oh wait, you just did.

[slowdude]

1 hour ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Do you think that competitive pvpers in swtor are uniquely horrible people?

Horrible people? Yep.  Unique? No. 

Many will prefer a more relaxed and less stressful environment. For one reason or another. This, by the way, does not mean that such players cannot improve their skills. And the main thing here is fair play, more or less equal teams. It so happened that a small pvp elite stood guard over the whole mode, which was only formally called ranked (because matchmaking could not work, no matter how much it was changed). But this is not enough. So the ranked premades were farming pugs on warzones. If that's not toxic behavior, then what is? A casual who swears in chat cannot kill q, but a ranked premade can. Or at least destroy the fun.

As long as the pro players protected themselves from the bads, the casual players could fully enjoy the presence of ranked players in the warzones. Complete lack of empathy.

[krackcommando]

2 hours ago, slowdude said:

 

 

What hypocrisy. It seems that humiliating and insulting everyone who does not belong to the small ranked club is not toxicity.

my friend, that's how the game is played. that's literally what BW wants: players to team up in premades. I'm saying exactly how this goes. they will make 8m teams and clean the entire queue for a few weeks until nobody queues up anymore. and get off your high horse. if someone takes your toys away, you'd be upset too. if ppl (you?) then came online and gloated about the taking away of that toy, you'd be angry (at them) too. lol hypocritical. please.

[Bigfallenstar]

25 minutes ago, Weswhitebore said:

Tell me you don't know what moderation or the role of a moderator is within a community, without telling me you don't know what it is. Oh wait, you just did.

Oh please. Spare us the "if you haven't been in there, then you can't say how it was." nonsense. Just like the guy who said competitive sports is a warrior culture and is also a shame one as well and all they were doing is self policing and correcting it self. Yeah, real policing when nothing is done or said to someone who tells them to kill themselves for not having the right tactical. You ranked players being toxic is an objective truth.  There is no witch hunt or boy who cried wolf. You clowns were a cesspool with inflated egos who think running around and chasing some is competent and skilled. What's skilled or competent about running around and chasing a dummy and doing the same thing over and over again? That's what people like you say about regs that it's boring and repetitive. So tell me, any of you ranked players, what's the difference with ranked when it's the same run, chase, and beat strategy and the same 8 people fighting each other?

 

This was long overdue for people such as you who think they are top dog when all you really did was wintrade and put down anyone new who dared step into ranked and didn't have the immediate best gear on. God forbid someone doesn't min/max and tries to have some fun. But that's something ranked players don't know about.

[Nee-Elder]

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

1. that's how competition works. that's why there's a gold, silver, bronze, and then a participation ribbon. gold is more valuable and exclusive than bronze and so forth down the line.

Seems obvious, right?  But remember gang:  Society, for whatever reason, has been evolving ( or devolving , from a certain point-of-view ) and therefore it's really no surprise  video-games'  creators/corporates  want to feel like they are "evolving" too; with the current times of everything for everyone. (regardless of merit)

imho , there is indeed a way to satisfy BOTH the casuals and the hardcores, as far as some new type of leaderboard system is concerned.  ( like using existing Fleet strongholds 'prestige'  public listings  terminal code, which could even be OPT-IN  if it would make players less upset )

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

1.  
2.  if you get globalled or go off and do your own thing, then you are going to be shamed.

See now i totally get the  "go off and do your own thing"  aspect, since that could def. be considered  rogue or selfish or whatever.

But what i've never understood is:  Why, as a Jedi Sage (healer) for example,  why is it  always such a big shame-fest  when certain situations call for using a last-ditch-desperation type  skill ( 'Force Barrier' ) that is literally given built into the GAME & Class?

It's almost like trying to shame an Operative for using *stealth escape* , no?

Sorta baffles me tbqh.  Almost feels like certain Rankers  just look for anything to poke & prod & shame  certain supposedly "weaker"  players, for some  misguided psychological advantage.  But in the end, all it ever seems to do is drive those players away from Ranked.  Thereby cutting off the others' weak nose just to spite their own hardcore face.

3 hours ago, krackcommando said:

incidentally, warrior culture is a shame culture. competitive sports are "warrior cultures." you receive honor for successes and shame for breaches of cultural ethics (like doing the wrong thing, under geared, etc.). that's literally how human civilization has functioned for at least 5+ thousand years.

Totally agree  and tbh that's ^ a really valid (and deep-seeded) point.  Probably larger/separate issue too , for humandkind (and our existence) in general.

However, just to offer a contrary opinion here:  Isn't it also equally as valid  to acknowledge that some of the greatest "warriors"  (RL or cyber) do far more to INSPIRE  others than they ever did to shame them?

Like, at our core, isn't  it far more honorable  to simply  /tip-cap or /bow  upon defeating a weaker opponent  , than it is to say place a boasting Flag onto their body or  /spit emote into their face  (or  'tea-bag' on their corpse)   ??

And if so, then wouldn't the PVP Community overall  serve itself better by practicing (and encouraging)  more respectful  and therefore less "toxic" type behaviors  themselves?  (Rather than waiting/wishing for magical moderation)

[slowdude]

8 minutes ago, krackcommando said:

literally what BW wants: players to team up in premades.

I guess they just didn't think about the consequences of their actions, lol. This is at a time when solo players took over MMOs, and games without the group finder are needed by no one. Hopefully it won't take them long enough to realize how wrong they were. Statistics will show. Well, if they have any interest in it. 

But it is foolish to deny that the ranked community was actively involved in what led to the elimination of the mode as a result.  

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

5 minutes ago, slowdude said:

I guess they just didn't think about the consequences of their actions, lol. This is at a time when solo players took over MMOs, and games without the group finder are needed by no one. Hopefully it won't take them long enough to realize how wrong they were. Statistics will show. Well, if they have any interest in it. 

But it is foolish to deny that the ranked community was actively involved in what led to the elimination of the mode as a result.  

you assume bioware is a competent company that takes decisions based on statistics and metrics

[Nee-Elder]

6 hours ago, Mycroft-Tarkin said:

 bro why you keep writing these essays that no one reads,

aww  you noticed!

That's cute.

So nice to get another super fan! 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Nee-Elder
Reason: messing with "hardcores" is so fun

[sGroggy]

59 minutes ago, Nee-Elder said:

But what i've never understood is:  Why, as a Jedi Sage (healer) for example,  why is it  always such a big shame-fest  when certain situations call for using a last-ditch-desperation type  skill ( 'Force Barrier' ) that is literally given built into the GAME & Class?

It's almost like trying to shame an Operative for using *stealth escape* , no?

Not really on-topic, but: is it though? Personally never saw this happen. If not for the barrier itself, it's also useful as a cc breaker. Don't see why it would be shamed.

[JediMasterAlex]

2 hours ago, slowdude said:

Horrible people? Yep.  Unique? No. 

So your position is that the entire ranked player base of over 1000 people are all horrible. What an enlightened opinion!

 

2 hours ago, slowdude said:

Many will prefer a more relaxed and less stressful environment. For one reason or another. This, by the way, does not mean that such players cannot improve their skills. And the main thing here is fair play, more or less equal teams. It so happened that a small pvp elite stood guard over the whole mode, which was only formally called ranked (because matchmaking could not work, no matter how much it was changed). But this is not enough. So the ranked premades were farming pugs on warzones. If that's not toxic behavior, then what is? A casual who swears in chat cannot kill q, but a ranked premade can. Or at least destroy the fun.

As long as the pro players protected themselves from the bads, the casual players could fully enjoy the presence of ranked players in the warzones. Complete lack of empathy.

What does any of this have to do with the 7.2 changes? What you're complaining about is what it going to happen now on a larger scale...

You know what actually was fair the vast majority of the time? Solo ranked. You know what won't be fair at all? 7.2 pvp where premades will constantly be matched against solos lol

[JediMasterAlex]

1 hour ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Oh please. Spare us the "if you haven't been in there, then you can't say how it was." nonsense.

If you didn't play ranked, how on earth can you say how it was? If your answer is: random people on the forums that played one ranked game and complained about it, how can you not see the issue with that?

You have people that had fun playing thousands of ranked matches telling you what ranked was actually like, but you'd rather believe made up nonsense just so you can feel better about yourself.

People should be ashamed about spreading misinformation so freely. I would find it unbelievable if I hadn't seen it so many times on these forums.

Edited December 10, 2022 by JediMasterAlex

[SaerethDL]

7 hours ago, krackcommando said:

1. that's how competition works. that's why there's a gold, silver, bronze, and then a participation ribbon. gold is more valuable and exclusive than bronze and so forth down the line.
2. if you're good (as you claim) and you don't insult other players, I find it very difficult to believe that rated players are being "toxic" toward you. if you get globalled or go off and do your own thing, then you are going to be shamed. incidentally, warrior culture is a shame culture. competitive sports are "warrior cultures." you receive honor for successes and shame for breaches of cultural ethics (like doing the wrong thing, under geared, etc.). that's literally how human civilization has functioned for at least 5+ thousand years.

I remember losing a rated HB match to Uncensored (caprica's guild) back in the day. it was a really tight back and forth match; we were up 2 goals at one point. they won in the end by getting the ball at spawn and just turtling under a scaffold with guard and two heals and a few taunts. at the end of the game, the first thing everyone did was /say "good game." I was heated b/c I felt like they stopped playing the game and got a cheap win. so I said something like "yeah right" or "if you say so." my team slapped me down hard in voice for that. and rightfully so. there are certain expectations about what you do, how you do it, and what you say in every (sub)culture. and when you don't know the (unspoken) rules or don't care about them (e.g., break the first stun, don't have the right gear, etc.) then you are going to be shamed. that's not toxicity perse. that's just how communities self-correct and self-police, and it's both nature AND nurture. I'm sorry someone slapped you down. but even a **** like nikanna makes you better.

1. Competition now works this way. The better you do in regs and the more you help out your team the faster you progress and the more points you earn per match. The way it always should have been.

2. So you already insenuate that I'm not good enough for ranked, you are so blinded you don't see your own toxicity and are making excuses for bad behaviour. Another reason why ranked was disbanded. You guys also think so highly of yourselves and disrespect those who don't play ranked and call them insults like "regstars". It's pretty funny the entitlement. Now the little clique is over, either you embrace it or you move on to another game. That is your only two options in a couple days.

 

[JediMasterAlex]

5 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

1. Competition now works this way. The better you do in regs and the more you help out your team the faster you progress and the more points you earn per match. The way it always should have been.

Yet literally anyone that wants to will be able to finish the season track and get all the rewards they want by grinding mindlessly, regardless of skill. That is not "competition" in any sense of the word.

[krackcommando]

24 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

1. Competition now works this way. The better you do in regs and the more you help out your team the faster you progress and the more points you earn per match. The way it always should have been.

2. So you already insenuate that I'm not good enough for ranked, you are so blinded you don't see your own toxicity and are making excuses for bad behaviour. Another reason why ranked was disbanded. You guys also think so highly of yourselves and disrespect those who don't play ranked and call them insults like "regstars". It's pretty funny the entitlement. Now the little clique is over, either you embrace it or you move on to another game. That is your only two options in a couple days.

 

rated has always worked that way, particularly in solo rated. and there's no way a person can raise his rank to gold by luck of the draw with a 100-win requirement no matter how good he is at queue dodging.

it is so ridiculously easy to get carried in this new (7.2) system, I cannot believe I have to explain it to you. no matter how garbage a play you (impersonal) are, you're only 1 of 8 as opposed to 1 of 4. and since you can individually select all 7 of your teammates, all you have to do is select (convince or pay) the 7 best players to carry you.

furthermore, there are no competitive rewards anymore. the only thing winning does for you is helps you BUY the more "elite" prizes faster than some dude who loses every - single - match.

I didn't insinuate anything. you stated that you're a good player and yet you got ridiculed in rated. good players who don't run their mouths in rated don't get flamed in rated. players who get globalled or don't wear the right gear, however, regularly get flamed. there's no hypocrisy in stating that. there's no insinuation or innuendo. 

and in before I'm accused of being an elite A-hole, I don't even have it in me to compete in solos anymore. it's intense. but I did it for 8 of 12 seasons (skipping some in the middle). and I did it a lot. there were many times in which I was flamed and/or bullied. but there's a difference between being told that you don't belong here, and being called personal insults. and tbf, only one person on SF in 5.x was doing the personal insults thing (for the most part). everyone else...I mean...when you screw up and cost your team a round or a match, they're going to snap at you. that's true of any high end team competition. it happens all the time in high end sports. rated is high end pvp.

edit2: speaking of being carried...I was a healer on a good pvp 8v8 team during the rated WZ games. I wasn't a good healer. but I was the only one even willing to try. so I got the spot. I was so definitely carried, there are no words in jawa, sand peoples, or the tongues of men to properly convey this. our sage healer outhealed me 2:1 on a bad match and took more dmg. yet we competed...like...legit competed with the best guilds on the server. for gits and shiggles, I tried healing solo ranked in one of the earlier seasons. nope. no way. no how. I got demolished. same class healer on the other side too. the carry factor in 8's is exponentially easier than arenas.

Edited December 11, 2022 by krackcommando
in before speech

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

https://www.swtor.com/leaderboards/character/4611688262243921595

 

The person who afked for a whole year in ranked pvp has 26164 medals, for those people who think that medal requirement actually requires skill or whatever