Follow-ups on PvP in 7.2

[SaerethDL]

1 hour ago, krackcommando said:

rated has always worked that way, particularly in solo rated. and there's no way a person can raise his rank to gold by luck of the draw with a 100-win requirement no matter how good he is at queue dodging.

it is so ridiculously easy to get carried in this new (7.2) system, I cannot believe I have to explain it to you. no matter how garbage a play you (impersonal) are, you're only 1 of 8 as opposed to 1 of 4. and since you can individually select all 7 of your teammates, all you have to do is select (convince or pay) the 7 best players to carry you.

furthermore, there are no competitive rewards anymore. the only thing winning does for you is helps you BUY the more "elite" prizes faster than some dude who loses every - single - match.

I didn't insinuate anything. you stated that you're a good player and yet you got ridiculed in rated. good players who don't run their mouths in rated don't get flamed in rated. players who get globalled or don't wear the right gear, however, regularly get flamed. there's no hypocrisy in stating that. there's no insinuation or innuendo. 

and in before I'm accused of being an elite A-hole, I don't even have it in me to compete in solos anymore. it's intense. but I did it for 8 of 12 seasons (skipping some in the middle). and I did it a lot. there were many times in which I was flamed and/or bullied. but there's a difference between being told that you don't belong here, and being called personal insults. and tbf, only one person on SF in 5.x was doing the personal insults thing (for the most part). everyone else...I mean...when you screw up and cost your team a round or a match, they're going to snap at you. that's true of any high end team competition. it happens all the time in high end sports. rated is high end pvp.

edit2: speaking of being carried...I was a healer on a good pvp 8v8 team during the rated WZ games. I wasn't a good healer. but I was the only one even willing to try. so I got the spot. I was so definitely carried, there are no words in jawa, sand peoples, or the tongues of men to properly convey this. our sage healer outhealed me 2:1 on a bad match and took more dmg. yet we competed...like...legit competed with the best guilds on the server. for gits and shiggles, I tried healing solo ranked in one of the earlier seasons. nope. no way. no how. I got demolished. same class healer on the other side too. the carry factor in 8's is exponentially easier than arenas.

You can literally apply the same thing with ranked. People can be paid to carry, or pay to win/trade, which happened a lot. You could be a bad player in ranked but still get carried in games as long as you kept playing.

If someone wants to take twice/three times as long to progress then so be it, they will have earned the rewards fair and square and hopefully gotten more skilled in the process. The reward for being skilled is to progress quicker and be rewarded quicker.

At the end of the day you are still making excuses and trying to validate toxic behaviour, elitism, and unsportmanslike conduct, in no way are you correct in doing that and this is one of the things bioware has specifically addressed.

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by SaerethDL

[Raazmir]

One of the most amusing things about this is the ability to somehow believe 8v8 ranked was a no go that was dissolved because of a lack of participation, and arenas are what saved pvp on swtor, when the reality is that if 4v4 deathmatch could save the game it has the ability to demonstrate its a far more popular format than 8v8 objective play right now.  For the first time in the game's history both game modes are on equal footing and all the arena players really have to do is show that TDM 4's pulls more attention than objective ranked.

 

People are salty because they know it isn't the case.  The company has tried literally everything to make people play arenas,  forcing them into the unranked queue,  implementing lockouts when people dropped out the instant an arena popped instead of a warzone,  forcing people into them via galactic conquest and none of it was enough to force more than .05% of the playerbase to participate in the format. 

[Weswhitebore]

4 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Spare us the "if you haven't been in there, then you can't say how it was." nonsense.

That is literally how it goes. If you have not been there, you cannot speak on how it works. If you are in court about a robbery went down at the bank, they aren't going to call in the guy from the Taco cart 2 streets over to testify nor be a witness, they are gonna call Sarah who they made put the money in the bag, John who was hit upside the head with an weapon, or Jim, the bank manager who had to open the safe.

 

4 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

competitive sports is a warrior culture

Well, yes and no. There are two types of culture in Competitive Sports. Warrior Culture and Winning Culture, which sound similar but are fundamentally different. All warriors are winners, but not all winners are warriors. The simple commitment to personal excellence, high standards, and an ethereal quest to be better than the day before makes a warrior a winner. Warriors are purpose-driven while winners are trophy-driven, Warriors are internally motivated while winners are externally motivated. Warriors have a growth mindset while winners have a fixed mindset. Warriors are process-oriented while winners are outcome-oriented.Warriors are values-based while winners are glory-based. Warrior cultures are not teaching winning; they are teaching competing, winning is just a by-product. Winning cultures are not teaching competing, winning is the goal. Breaking rules, taking shortcuts, using others for your gain, and finding the easy route that guarantees victory makes a person a winner, but it certainly makes no warrior. A coach is responsible for the development, growth, marginal gains, and values he bestows in his players. If all he cares about is winning, they will be developed, groomed, and taught to be outcome-focused winners. They will gain value only in winning and define their victories as such, base their values on such. A warrior expects winning to happen, but only as a result of excellence, it is not the ultimate goal, but a simple step along the path in the ever-ascending journey to excellence.  A winner spends his entire life thinking he is special and endowed by some great being to win since the day he graced this planet. One day he loses and what follows is an epic meltdown. A winner doesn’t see the loss as part of growth and a way-point on the journey. He simply melts down and turns back to the journey. So yes, competitive sports does have a sense of warrior culture, but can also instill a winning culture instead.

 

4 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

Yeah, real policing when nothing is done or said to someone who tells them to kill themselves for not having the right tactical.

You do realize that the only power a player has over another player is to tell them not to do things and to report them to Bioware right? And you know what players have done? Exactly that. It's not like we can just walk up to them and kick their teeth down their throat for telling Tim on Thursday night to KYS. All we can do is call them a terrible person, tell them to stop, and report them to Bioware, who has been failing at their jobs to do moderation and policing for awhile.

 

4 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

. What's skilled or competent about running around and chasing a dummy and doing the same thing over and over again? That's what people like you say about regs that it's boring and repetitive. So tell me, any of you ranked players, what's the difference with ranked when it's the same run, chase, and beat strategy and the same 8 people fighting each other?

Running around chasing a dummy?? Tf you talking about. The only dummies are in strongholds, don't move, are arguing politics in fleet chat all day, or in Regs not knowing what a white bar/ resolve bar is. Though I won't call the people in regs dummies for not knowing that, they're more uneducated or uninformed than anything.  The difference between running, chasing, and fighting people in Ranked and Regs is that they Ranked players actually know they are doing, they know their class and abilities. Majority of them can sit down and teach someone how to play that class, from the abilities all the way down to terrain usage. Majority of Players in regs can't do that, they can barely even do an unstealth for a huttball pass or make a call out at a node. The strategies are class, player, and map dependent and success often depends on a players ability to run or chase because the margin of error or repercussions for not doing so are not negligible depending on situation. A lot of the time in regs, you do not have to chase a player because there are no repercussions or it's highly negligible. You can make a complete goof and blow your biggest dcd, almost nobody will notice other than 1 or 2 competent players and you can go completely unpunished, that won't fly in Ranked.  It's also not always the same 8 people fighting each other, the community is at the least, 1000 strong during the season, with each of those 1000 being 1000 different unique accounts. Your ignorance is showing.

5 hours ago, Bigfallenstar said:

This was long overdue for people such as you who think they are top dog when all you really did was wintrade and put down anyone new who dared step into ranked and didn't have the immediate best gear on

What part of Ranked being the top tier competitive mode of PVP in this game do you not understand? You can hide behind wintrading accusations all you want like a jealous and delusional sore loser, but lots of people have earned their rewards the right way. That may come as a shock to you for reason, I don't know if it's because you never properly earned something in your life that's significant, if maybe you have earned something significant and you grew some kind of contempt or disdain for it because of how it impacted your life, or if you were traumatized by a specific person or event. However, your personal feelings, beliefs, and dilemmas aside, many people have earned their rewards the right way, and anyone who did wintrade for them, are not approved of. I don't know why you think it's okay to step into the highest tier of PVP in this game without the best gear or knowing your class/ abilities when it doesn't just effect you but your team as well. That should be common sense. That's like showing up to a nim raid, i'll use DF or Gods for example with 0 nim clears, for any boss except Nefra, little to no understanding of the mechanics, and not being able to remotely meet the required dps or heal checks. That's like showing up to the firing range and not having your weapon or any ammo. That's like not shaving your beard before PT or first formation when you don't have a shaving profile. That's like not saluting an officer outside as they are approached.

[alasamaya]

2 hours ago, SaerethDL said:

You can literally apply the same thing with ranked. People can be paid to carry, or pay to win/trade, which happened a lot. You could be a bad player in ranked but still get carried in games as long as you kept playing.

If someone wants to take twice/three times as long to progress then so be it, they will have earned the rewards fair and square and hopefully gotten more skilled in the process. The reward for being skill is to progress quicker and be rewarded quicker.

At the end of the day you are still making excuses and trying to validate toxic behaviour, elitism, and unsportmanslike conduct, in no way are you correct in doing that and this is one of the things bioware has specifically addressed.

 

One thing about your comment. Most of the people that "wintraded", did it in group ranked. And guess what? Most of them are PVErs that are part of big guilds. I could post videos I sent to Bioware here, but Id get me banned instead of them doing the job done. I reported them over and over again, and nothing happened. So what you saying, which I agree with about the wintrading part is, again, not playerbase exclusive issue, is devs ignoring the reports. I dont know how many times you need people to tell you that Bioware ignored ALL the reports. 

 

You also repeat that nonsense of the toxic behavior. The whole game toxicity has one responsible, and is the moderators. If a game has no moderation, this is the result. And there is no part of the game that is not getting hurt by this lack of moderation. If you want to close your eyes and say that only in ranked this kind of toxicity is present...idk what to say lol. I did ranked for mmm 8 years? and I never experienced toxicity there as bad as in regular warzones and NiM operations.  But is okay, some people need to be cheering that ranked pvpers are leaving, cause they are over their skill, so this way those guys cab feel they are improving in game, I guess, since the competition will be lower 😜

Edited December 11, 2022 by alasamaya

[SaerethDL]

1 hour ago, JediMasterAlex said:

Yet literally anyone that wants to will be able to finish the season track and get all the rewards they want by grinding mindlessly, regardless of skill. That is not "competition" in any sense of the word.

So who cares, do you wanna feel special or something? Getting things at a faster pace is motivation enough for most people to try and play better and continue to get more skilled at the game while also being inviting to new players.

[Raazmir]

3 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

So who cares, do you wanna feel special or something? Getting things at a faster pace is motivation enough for most people to try and play better and continue to get more skilled at the game while also being inviting to new players.

And they get so furious when i point out they're putting too much of their personal self worth into a decade+ old video game.

[SaerethDL]

1 minute ago, alasamaya said:

One thing about your comment. Most of the people that "wintraded", did it in group ranked. And guess what? Most of them are PVErs that are part of big guilds. I could post videos I sent to Bioware here, but Id get me banned instead of them doing the job done. I reported them over and over again, and nothing happened. So what you saying, which I agree with about the wintrading part is, again, not playerbase exclusive issue, is devs ignoring the reports. I dont know how many times you need people to tell you that Bioware ignored ALL the reports. 

 

You also repeat that nonsense of the toxic behavior. The whole game toxicity has one responsible, and is the moderators. If a game has no moderation, this is the result. And there is no part of the game that is not getting hurt by this lack of moderation. If you want to close your eyes and say that only in ranked this kind of toxicity is present...idk what to say lol. I did ranked for mmm 8 years? and I never experienced toxicity there as bad as in regular warzones and NiM operations.  But is okay, some people need to make others banned, that are over their skill, to feel they are improving in game, I guess, since the competition will be lower 😜

If the game actually had moderators then ranked would practically be non-exsistant, you wouldn't even be able to get a pop because half the people would be banned! Thats how toxic it is! 😜

 

[JediMasterAlex]

10 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

So who cares, do you wanna feel special or something? Getting things at a faster pace is motivation enough for most people to try and play better and continue to get more skilled at the game while also being inviting to new players.

I assumed my point was evident, but I'll make it again. Just being able to complete something faster will not foster competition. Competing for exclusive rewards does foster competition. It's not about "feeling special," it's about earning something meaningful (within the context of a game obviously, something Raazmir clearly can't comprehend).

Frankly, it's rather incredible that I need to point these things out. Are you unironically in favor of participation trophies? Do you think people shouldn't be rewarded for their competitive efforts in anything? Should we do away with all sports as well? They foster the exact same "toxic" attitudes you're decrying here.

9 minutes ago, Raazmir said:

And they get so furious when i point out they're putting too much of their personal self worth into a decade+ old video game.

I haven't seen anyone mad about it. It's simply obvious that you say that as a coping mechanism to make yourself feel better about your inability to play solo ranked well. It is utterly transparent.

[Raazmir]

Just now, JediMasterAlex said:

I haven't seen anyone mad about it. It's simply obvious that you say that as a coping mechanism to make yourself feel better about your inability to play solo ranked well. It is utterly transparent.

🤣

[SaerethDL]

1 minute ago, Raazmir said:

🤣

haha these guys are oblivious to their own toxicity they've stewed in it so long. You reap what you sow. 

[JediMasterAlex]

1 minute ago, SaerethDL said:

haha these guys are oblivious to their own toxicity they've stewed in it so long. You reap what you sow. 

So according to you, I'm toxic and part of the reason ranked is being removed, yeah?

Do you have any evidence for how I behaved in game, or is this a fantasy you've constructed in your head?

[Raazmir]

3 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

haha these guys are oblivious to their own toxicity they've stewed in it so long. You reap what you sow. 

Its 100% the result of years of solo ranked existing and eventually becoming "end game" pvp.  Every other "end game" in every other successful MMO requires you to be sociable enough to find teammates.  SWTOR is the outlier, and its pvp suffers because of it. 

[JediMasterAlex]

Just now, Raazmir said:

Its 100% the result of years of solo ranked existing and eventually becoming "end game" pvp.  Every other "end game" in every other successful MMO requires you to be sociable enough to find teammates.  SWTOR is the outlier, and its pvp suffers because of it. 

WOW is adding a solo queue on Tuesday.

Not to mention your argument fundamentally makes no sense anyway. Solo ranked was fun, and it was competitive. People that were bad at it didn't have to play it if they didn't want to.

Also, starting with 7.2, there will be no more "end game" pvp at all. So even though solo ranked was flawed in some ways, mainly due to Bioware's indifference, there is nothing taking its place.

[Weswhitebore]

20 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

If someone wants to take twice/three times as long to progress then so be it, they will have earned the rewards fair and square and hopefully gotten more skilled in the process. The reward for being skilled is to progress quicker and be rewarded quicker.

They are not earning anything in 7.2 PVP, they are being handed things. They are being given participation trophies. I can AFK everyday, every WZ, or better yet, spam basic attack,  and still get the same rewards as Johnny boy who just tried to speed run the track and stressed himself, causing burn out. There is no actual incentive to get better. They keep making everything easier and simpler.

 

24 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

At the end of the day you are still making excuses and trying to validate toxic behaviour, elitism, and unsportmanslike conduct, in no way are you correct in doing that and this is one of the things bioware has specifically addressed.

He did no such thing. What it sounds like is what you are deeming "toxic behavior" is what many people call the truth or a reality check. There is often the discussion of Feelings vs Truth, and often enough these players end up getting their feelings hurt hearing the truth then wanna run and cry about toxicity. If someone tells you that you suck, sure you may not want to hear that, but you may just suck. Take it for what it's worth, take that, and use it as fuel to change it. Nobody ever got anywhere by sitting in a corner crying because they were told they were bad and sucked at something or got yelled at because they did something they are not supposed to. On the topic of elitism, You can strive to be elite (as an individual, organization or country) without being elitist. Elite (which is a status) and Elitism (which is an attitude) are separate things.

[SaerethDL]

19 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

I assumed my point was evident, but I'll make it again. Just being able to complete something faster will not foster competition. Competing for exclusive rewards does foster competition. It's not about "feeling special," it's about earning something meaningful (within the context of a game obviously, something Raazmir clearly can't comprehend).

 

I haven't seen anyone mad about it. It's simply obvious that you say that as a coping mechanism to make yourself feel better about your inability to play solo ranked well. It is utterly transparent.

1: You ignore the fact I already told you progressing faster towards rewards for being competitive is a certainly a reason. This is an example in most modern competitive titles. Halo Infinite, Call of duty, Destiny 2, etc, you get rewarded more XP the better you play, and earning rewards at a much faster rate. This is a staple of competitive games. 

2: This is our point, you cannot see your own toxic behaviour or just don't care, your elitism that you actually think you are better than us with zero evidence and think you deserve some kind of special reward that you can hold over everyone else that you think proves it. That is all going away in a couple days

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by SaerethDL

[Raazmir]

16 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

WOW is adding a solo queue on Tuesday.

 

 

And they're going to regret it and its a similar symptom of a game on the decline rather than rise.  Its literally the WoW team throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks. 

[JediMasterAlex]

5 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

1: You ignore the fact I already told you progressing faster towards rewards for being competitive is a certainly a reason. This is an example in most modern competitive titles. Halo Infinite, Call of duty, Destiny 2, etc, you get rewarded more XP the better you play, and earning rewards at a much faster rate. This is a staple of competitive games. 

Don't those games also have ranking systems though? I don't play any of them, so I don't know. But certainly many other competitive games like CS:GO, Overwatch, Valorant, etc have ranking systems...

Battle pass systems have only been around for a few years. I would hardly call them a "staple," and I would put forward that they don't foster competition in any game. Earning the same participation rewards as everyone else faster will never be as motivating as winning a gold medal or its equivalent.

8 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

2: This is our point, you cannot see your own toxic behaviour or just don't care, your elitism that you actually think you are better than us with zero evidence and think you deserve some kind of special reward that you can hold over everyone else that you think proves it. That is all going away in a couple days

You misunderstand me. If you knew me at all, and knew anything about my behavior in-game, you would know how ridiculous you sound right now. I'm someone that fought as hard as anyone to remove vote kick from the game when it was abused. I'm someone that actively called out cheaters and toxic losers even when it made me unpopular. I'm someone that is personally responsible (more or less) for one of the most toxic players on SF getting banned repeatedly.

I was almost always patient with new players. I offered advice whenever it was asked of me. The rare occasions when I did express frustration, it was always targeted at whatever I thought the bad play was, not the individual.

As to your point about "elitism" essentially, ranked players have you at a disadvantage. We've all played regs for years. We know what they are, and we know how they compared to ranked. There's no mystery there. It's not "toxic" to point out the obvious.

[JediMasterAlex]

1 minute ago, Raazmir said:

And they're going to regret it and its a similar symptom of a game on the decline rather than rise.  Its literally the WoW team throwing everything at the wall and hoping something sticks. 

I get it, this is your pet theory you've been holding onto for like 8 years and you think you're finally vindicated. That must feel great. That doesn't mean you're right though lol

[Raazmir]

1 minute ago, JediMasterAlex said:

I get it, this is your pet theory you've been holding onto for like 8 years and you think you're finally vindicated. That must feel great. That doesn't mean you're right though lol

And yet all evidence points to the fact that I am.   Anything with Money behind it takes a long time to die, but you can see it getting sick long before it actually dies. 

[SaerethDL]

28 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

So according to you, I'm toxic and part of the reason ranked is being removed, yeah?

Do you have any evidence for how I behaved in game, or is this a fantasy you've constructed in your head?

If I look at a banana and see it's half black, I can tell it's rotten. I don't need to eat it to find out. Just like I can tell how you act in this forum likely reflects how you act in game. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by SaerethDL

[JediMasterAlex]

4 minutes ago, SaerethDL said:

If I look at a banana and see it's half black, I can tell it's rotten. Just like I can tell how you act in this forum is likely reflects how you act in game. 

OK, so explain your theory to me. What have I said here that you think is "toxic" and explain how you think that translates to my behavior in-game. Keeping in mind, I mostly played solo ranked and never belittled regs players in regs.

I also like that you ignored everything I said. If you don't believe me, go look at my post history. You can see all the old threads about vote kick for yourself, and that should frankly be all the evidence you need about me.

Edited December 11, 2022 by JediMasterAlex

[SaerethDL]

2 minutes ago, JediMasterAlex said:

OK, so explain your theory to me. What have I said here that you think is "toxic" and explain how you think that translates to my behavior in-game. Keeping in mind, I mostly played solo ranked and never belittled regs players in regs.

I'm not here to waste time for you man, the evidence is laid out throughout this thread all you have to go is go back and read it. If you are oblivious to it that isn't my fault, you've already been called out by multiple people. 

Edited December 11, 2022 by SaerethDL

[JediMasterAlex]

Just now, SaerethDL said:

I'm not here to waste to for you man, the evidence is laid out throughout this thread all you have to go is go back and read it. If you are oblivious to it that isn't my fault, you've already been called out by multiple people. 

A great non-answer. You're confronted with evidence that directly contradicts your theories, but you don't let that stand in your way! Thanks for this response though. Your explicit support for participation rewards is making a lot more sense now.

[SaerethDL]

Just now, JediMasterAlex said:

A great non-answer. You're confronted with evidence that directly contradicts your theories, but you don't let that stand in your way! Thanks for this response though. Your explicit support for participation rewards is making a lot more sense now.

LOL This snide remark here is a literal example of what I was talking about. As there are many, many, examples through-out this thread. You couldn't make it any easier for me. 

[Nee-Elder]

25 minutes ago, Weswhitebore said:

On the topic of elitism, You can strive to be elite (as an individual, organization or country) without being elitist. Elite (which is a status) and Elitism (which is an attitude) are separate things.

QFE ^ and thankyou for saying it.  Been trying to explain that ^  to people for years. (in RL too)

33 minutes ago, Raazmir said:

 Every other "end game" in every other successful MMO requires you to be sociable enough to find teammates. 

ehh  that's not entirely  accurate actually, since  ESO has what i believe SWTOR should have (and almost had, with Ilum PVP zone, if not for such an old flawed game-engine)  : Cyrodiil  24/7 non-stop PVP (open world)  , where players like me  (who enjoy groups but  just don't always have the time/patience to wait)  can go solo and still thrive & succeed to become  'Emperor'  twice.

* i really don't see why BioWare couldn't  do some STAR WARS  version of  'Cyrodiil' , including it's points leaderboard, and with like player-manned turrets & vehicles & bases, etc.  ... even with the nearly 15-year old 'Hero' game-engine.