Class Balance Changes Feedback

[Aethyriel]

On 11/10/2022 at 7:31 PM, JackieKo said:

What are your impressions of the redesigned Annihilation mod choices?

My impression fyi is that your devs are incompetent beyond comparison. you want to pair up Bleeding Center with Draining Center - fine - but it does not generate enough Fury to do so unless you get lucky with crits or pre-stack deadly saber and have it up all the time for the extra bleed. There is no stable rotation here. A stable rotation is Juyo rend with blood Fury but Blood fury does so little damage that you end up parsing below what Arsenal mercs are currently doing and it's not easy to pull off either. You ruined a perfectly good class with your idiotic garbage changes while not addressing the actual issue which always was and still is too much stupid group healing.

[roinopouf]

19 hours ago, Sikssix said:

Fury/ Concentration being flexible?  Could you elaborate?  That spec feels very wonky and it's as flexible as a steel rod honestly.

Flexibility not as in the ability choice you get, but how much adaptative it gets in real situation.

While Watchman might struggle in on & off fights due to re-applying dots, and while Combat is a very precise machinery that doesn't allow a buff to go missing at a certain point with jeopardizing the rotation or wasting a ton of damage, Concentration is an all rounder that absorbs any variation in the fight situation presented by the boss.

Maybe you'd label it as stability, I consider it flexible with regards to the boss roster.

[Sikssix]

18 minutes ago, roinopouf said:

Flexibility not as in the ability choice you get, but how much adaptative it gets in real situation.

While Watchman might struggle in on & off fights due to re-applying dots, and while Combat is a very precise machinery that doesn't allow a buff to go missing at a certain point with jeopardizing the rotation or wasting a ton of damage, Concentration is an all rounder that absorbs any variation in the fight situation presented by the boss.

Maybe you'd label it as stability, I consider it flexible with regards to the boss roster.

I have seen countless concentration/fury players struggle to keep their numbers up, Draxus is one of the few I could think of that can keep up with Watchman.  Combat/Carnage is literally neck to neck on most fights with watchman and it's fun to be in that competition, as long as mechanics are followed and we aren't wiping.  Concentration/fury I say it's hard being flexible because of the secondary leap you obtain, the positioning correction out of it makes it wonky depending on the fight.  Stability maybe the better word here as you said, either way, It's not a terrible spec, there are good smash spec players out there, but that can heavily depend on the fight alone.  Each spec on each class can shine over one another on every fight, but it also depends what you can bring to the table as that spec for the OPs compensation.  I always go for Watchman because I don't have to think of rotation (minus opener), the heals are OP and I hate that, I like being able to share the world my small e-peen team that I can be of assistance with this spec.  Not just with DoTs, but with having the mobility for the team when needed.

 

I agree, the word I wanted to use is stability.  As for flexibility, I want to lightly use that instead of heavily using it.  

[roinopouf]

33 minutes ago, Sikssix said:

I have seen countless concentration/fury players struggle to keep their numbers up, Draxus is one of the few I could think of that can keep up with Watchman.  Combat/Carnage is literally neck to neck on most fights with watchman and it's fun to be in that competition, as long as mechanics are followed and we aren't wiping.  Concentration/fury I say it's hard being flexible because of the secondary leap you obtain, the positioning correction out of it makes it wonky depending on the fight.  Stability maybe the better word here as you said, either way, It's not a terrible spec, there are good smash spec players out there, but that can heavily depend on the fight alone.  Each spec on each class can shine over one another on every fight, but it also depends what you can bring to the table as that spec for the OPs compensation.  I always go for Watchman because I don't have to think of rotation (minus opener), the heals are OP and I hate that, I like being able to share the world my small e-peen team that I can be of assistance with this spec.  Not just with DoTs, but with having the mobility for the team when needed.

 

I agree, the word I wanted to use is stability.  As for flexibility, I want to lightly use that instead of heavily using it.  

It all stems from the skill floors of the specs. Concentration has the lowest, so better players mostly go for the "harder" specs.

But Concentration also allows for maximal output in almost every fight of the game, which is only exploited by the few skilled players that run it, hence that impression that most Concentration users have a hard time keeping up with the other specs.

[omaan]

On 11/10/2022 at 10:53 PM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

Balance Changes Coming to Game Update 7.2

Hey everyone, Shabir here with another round of balance changes. On this pass, we took a look at Tanks across all 3 disciplines and made adjustments to bring up their Threat generation as well as  damage in line with our targets for tanks. There are also adjustments made to Marauder/Sentinel and Mercenary/Commando. We look forward to seeing your feedback on these balance changes and will post updates on any changes that may occur in this thread. Be sure to check out these changes on the PTS and leave feedback here. Thanks and take it easy. 

General

• Threat generation has been increased for all tank combat styles.

 

Assassin/Shadow

Darkness/Kinetic Combat

• Depredating Volts/Cascading Debris damage has been increased by 5%

• Mounting Darkness/Pulsating Force now increases Discharge/Force Breach and Wither's/Slow Time’s damage by 30%, up from 20%. 

• Energize/Particle Acceleration now additionally reduces the Force cost of Shock/Project by 15 while in effect. 

• Assassinate/Spinning Strike now has a 100% chance to trigger Energize/Particle Acceleration.

• Spike's/Spinning Kick’s stun duration is increased by 1 second. 

• Spike/Spinning Kick now applies 10% damage reduction to the user whenever it deals damage for 6 seconds.

• The Dark Forces/Light Forces ability mod now heals for 2% of max health whenever damage is dealt to a taunted target, up from 1%. 

• Increased the damage reduction given by the Dark Charge/Combat Technique passive ability from 2% to 5%. (15)

• Severing Slash/Cleaving Cut has been redesigned for Darkness/Kinetic Combat. It now does the following:

  • Strikes targets in a cone, dealing weapon damage, immobilizing targets for 2 seconds, then slowing them for an additional 6 seconds once the immobilize effect wears off. (68)

• The Ward of the Continuum tactical has been redesigned. It now does the following:

  • Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward now has 10 charges and Dark Bulwark/Kinetic Bulwark can no longer restore charges. Consuming a charge of Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward increases defense chance by 1%. This effect stacks up to 10 times and lasts for 20 seconds or until Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward is reactivated. (43)

• Fixed an issue where Reckless Defense/Potent Defense was incorrectly adding multiple stacks with Depredating Volts/Cascading Debris.

• Gloom Ward now does 50% more damage upon Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward breaking from damage.

• Increased the duration of Reckless Defense/Potent Defense from 6 seconds to 10 seconds. 

 

Juggernaut/Guardian

• The Warmonger/Battlefield Command utility has been redesigned. It now additionally enables Vicious Throw/Dispatch or Hew/Whirling Blade after using Force Charge.

• War Master utility has been redesigned per discipline, with Immortal replacing War Master with a new utility called Field Commander/Front Line Veteran.

Vengeance/Vigilance 

• War Master's has been redesigned to add movement-impairing and push and pull effects to the immunity granted by Unstoppable. It now grants 20% damage reduction while Unstoppable is active. War Master no longer grants Vicious Throw/Dispatch from Force Charge/Force Leap.

• Brawn has been replaced by Deafening Defense/Commanding Awe, which increases damage reduction at all times and by an additional 15% while Endure Pain/Enure is active.

  • Deafening Defense/Commanding Awe was previously a passive gained at level 1, although hidden from the tree. This is now part of the ability tree at level 51.

Rage/ Focus

• War Master's has been redesigned to add movement-impairing and push and pull effects to the immunity granted by Unstoppable. It now grants 20% damage reduction while Unstoppable is active. War Master no longer grants Vicious Throw/Dispatch from Force Charge/Force Leap.

Immortal/ Defense

• War Master has been replaced by Field Commander/Front Line Veteran. It reads:

  • Force Charge/Force Leap finishes the cooldown of Disruption/Force Kick and grants Unstoppable, granting immunity to interrupts, stuns, knockdowns, incapacitating and movement-impairing effects, and effects that push or pull you around for 4 seconds.

• Conquering Defense/Abating Defense - Increases shield chance by 4% and reduces the cooldown of Saber Ward by 30 seconds. Crushing Blow's/Guardian Slash’s damage is increased by 12%. 

• Lash Out/Lunge - Retaliation/Riposte consumes 1 less rage, has its damage increase by 12%, and no longer causes a global cooldown. In addition, melee and ranged defense is increased by 3%. 

• Crushing Rage/Guardian Focus is being replaced with Crushing Grip/Stasis Mastery. 

• Crushing Grip/Stasis Mastery - Dealing damage with Crushing Blow reduces the cooldown of Force Choke/Force Stasis by 2 seconds and generates one additional Rage/Focus. 

• Aegis Shield/Warding Shield is replacing Targeting Assault mod. 

• Aegis Shield/Warding Shield - Dealing damage with Aegis Assault grants a barrier of protection to up to 8 allies within 10 meters for 6 seconds.

 

 

Marauder/Sentinel

Annihilation/Watchmen

• Deadly Saber’s/Overload Saber’s damage has been increased by 3.5%. 

• Devious Wounds/Smoldering Burns now lasts for 6 seconds and increases bleed damage by 5%, up from 3%. 

• Juyo Mastery now additionally increases bleed damage by 1% per stack of Juyo Form.

• Pulverize/Mind Sear now resets the cooldown of Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw and has a 30% chance to trigger, up from 20%. 

• Swift Demise/Acceleration Victory no longer grants stacks of Swift Demise from Annihilate/Merciless Slash. Instead, it increases Vicious Throw/Dispatch damage by 10%. The rest of its effect is unchanged. 

• Damage done by the Blood Fury/Burning Zen ability mod has been increased by 6%. 

• The Bleeding Center/Burning Center ability mod now generates 4 rage/Focus whenever Berserk/Zen is activated. 

• Force Fracture damage has been increased by 10%. 

• The Juyo Rend/Juyo Melt ability mod has been redesigned. It no longer increases the damage of Force Rend per stack of Juyo Form. Instead, it causes Force Rend to immediately grant 6 stacks of Juyo Form and build 10 Fury/Centering stacks. 

• The Draining Center/Melting Center ability mod has been redesigned. It now reads: 

  • “Force Rend deals twice its initial damage whenever it consumes a stack of Berserk and heals you for 50% of the damage that it deals.”

Fury/Concentration

• Reduced the critical strike damage bonus given by Vehemence/Fervor from 10% to 5%.

• Decreased the Fury/Centering stack bonus given by Furious Discovery/Zealous Revelation from 6 to 4. 

• The Furious Rumination/Focused Meditation ability mod has been redesigned. It no longer grants a guaranteed critical hit after activating Berserk. Instead, this has been moved to the Gravity Fissure passive. 

• Gravity Manipulation has been redesigned and renamed Gravity Fissure. It now reads: (60)

  • “Obliterate/Zealous Leap and Force Crush/Exhaustion each consume 1 less rage. Activating Berserk/Zen causes your next direct damage attack to critically hit.”

Carnage/Combat

• Shard of Mortis critical hit chance bonus per stack has been reduced from 25% to 15%.

 

Powertech/Vanguard 

Shield Tech/Shield Specialist

• Payday/ Disruptor Rifle - Payday/Disruptor Rifle benefits from Heat Screen’s cooldown reduction in addition to Heat Blast. 

• Thermal Screen - Thermal Screen tactical correctly applies its effects to Payday/Disruptor Rifle.

• Payday’s/Disruptor Rifles damage is increased by 12%. 

• Ion Overload - Shock has its duration increased to 9 seconds. 

• Flame Engine/Pulse Engine - Firestorms/Ion Storms damage increased by 50% up from 40% when Flame Engine/Pulse Engine is triggered and proc chance is increased to 75% up from 50%. 

• Shield Vents/Shield Cycler - Ion Gas Cylinders damage is increased to 10% up from 5%. 

 

Mercenary/Commando

• Rocket Out/Propulsion Round is taking Hydraulic Overrides'/Hold the Line’s place on the ability tree as a level 68 mod choice.
• Rocket Out/Propulsion Round includes the utility Smoke Screen.
  • Smoke Screen: Rocket Out/Propulsion Round generates a Smoke Screen when used keeping you from being pulled or lept to and making you immune to interrupts and ability pushback for 4 seconds. In addition, taking melee or tech damage within 4 seconds of previously using Rocket Out/Propulsion Round, refreshes its cooldown. These effects cannot occur more then once every 40 seconds.
• Jet Escape/Tenacious Defense no longer reduces the cooldown of Rocket Out/Propulsion Round but instead increases the duration of Hydraulic Overrides/Hold the Line by 4 seconds.
• Rocket Out's/Propulsion Round’s cooldown reduction from Jet Escape/Tenacious Defense is now the default cooldown for Rocket Out/Propulsion Round.

Innovative Ordnance/Assault Specialist

• Innovative Particle Accelerator/Ionic Accelerator - Rate limit reduced from 7.5 to 7.0 seconds.

plenty of players already clearly stated that ability pruning is BAD. And they dislike it. Yet again we see some abilities being locked under choices. Now it's rocket out being locked. Guys players dislike ability pruning, players stated that making choices between cool and important abilities is BAD and you just ignoring it and continue to prune the abilities. 

[xxSHOONYxx]

42 minutes ago, omaan said:

plenty of players already clearly stated that ability pruning is BAD. And they dislike it. Yet again we see some abilities being locked under choices. Now it's rocket out being locked. Guys players dislike ability pruning, players stated that making choices between cool and important abilities is BAD and you just ignoring it and continue to prune the abilities. 

Ability pruning while some people don't like it was neccesary. Kits were starting to be too overloaded and making things too easy and no thought put into utilites

[TylerBott]

On 11/10/2022 at 12:31 PM, JackieKo said:

• How does the adjusted threat and damage output of tank classes feel?
• Darkness Assassin and Annihilation Marauder’s rotations have been smoothed out, does this feel better or worse than 7.0?
• The Ward of the Continuum tactical has been redesigned to synergize better with Darkness Assassin mod choices. Have you tried it? What do you think?
• What are your impressions of the redesigned Annihilation mod choices?
• How do you feel about the overall state of tanks in PVE?
• How do you feel about the overall state of tanks in PVP?
• What do you feel tanks are missing in PVP or PVE?
• What are things you would like to see in the future for tanks?
• What are your impressions on the itemizations around tanks?
• Medals and Achievements for PVP
• Would you like to see additional achievements added on a bi-seasonal or seasonal basis?
• Do achievements motivate you to play more PVP?
• Do you feel medals should be easier or harder to achieve?
• What actions in PVP would you like to see represented in medals?
   

I agree with many of the people here that if you wanted to change annihilation and wathcman, I think these are steps in the wrong direction. Anni has crazy utility and the group healing is something that makes it unique in the game as a dps class. However, if you wanted to change the class, you should nerf healing output, not implement such major damage changes. Additionally, the proposed changes ruin the stable "rotation" that anni currently has. The smooth flowing rotation you seek to implement by players using Juyo rend + bleeding center sacrifices massive dps compared to the live rotation. Running blood fury rather than bleeding center increases the dps, but by marginal amounts that don't offset the lack of 4x hit on rend. Using draining center still results in around a 24% decrease in rend damage (a huge portion of anni's overall damage), while completely ruining any smooth playstyle that anni currently has, let alone the "more smooth" playstyle you wanted to give it. At the end of the day, I don't think many people will be taking Juyo rend because of it's weaker damage output, so people will still be using draining center, and as a result, healing even more. So you have promoted even further self-healing on a class that already puts out at least 1/3 of a healer's output. Are you trying to make healerss roles irrelevant because of a dps's healing capabilities? I wouldn't think so since that's sort of the opposite of balancing. If you feel the need to change anni, it should be to somewhat nerf it's healing output while keeping its damage and already existing smooth gameplay the same; not by increasing healing, decreasing dps, and destroying any resemblance of an organized playstyle.

[Lakemine]

Have only tested commando on PTS. I'm glad Hold the Line is back baseline, so thank you.  

Reading the tanking changes seem ok. The shadow tank changes seem ok, OH the damage reduction back on spinning kick is GREATLY welcomed again, so thank you.

Also my sents/maras are watchman/anni. I have not tested them on the PTS, but reading everyone elses impressions, i'm worried. Please don't kill the rotation. I only have so many synapses and having to learn new gearing, new rotations, new classes, new specs, really ruins the game for me.  

[Darthdogus]

On 11/10/2022 at 8:53 PM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

Assassin/Shadow

Darkness/Kinetic Combat

1. Depredating Volts/Cascading Debris damage has been increased by 5%

2. Mounting Darkness/Pulsating Force now increases Discharge/Force Breach and Wither's/Slow Time’s damage by 30%, up from 20%. 

3. Energize/Particle Acceleration now additionally reduces the Force cost of Shock/Project by 15 while in effect. 

4. Assassinate/Spinning Strike now has a 100% chance to trigger Energize/Particle Acceleration.

5. Spike's/Spinning Kick’s stun duration is increased by 1 second. 

6. Spike/Spinning Kick now applies 10% damage reduction to the user whenever it deals damage for 6 seconds.

7. The Dark Forces/Light Forces ability mod now heals for 2% of max health whenever damage is dealt to a taunted target, up from 1%. 

8. Increased the damage reduction given by the Dark Charge/Combat Technique passive ability from 2% to 5%. (15)

9. Severing Slash/Cleaving Cut has been redesigned for Darkness/Kinetic Combat. It now does the following:

Strikes targets in a cone, dealing weapon damage, immobilizing targets for 2 seconds, then slowing them for an additional 6 seconds once the immobilize effect wears off. (68)

10. The Ward of the Continuum tactical has been redesigned. It now does the following:

Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward now has 10 charges and Dark Bulwark/Kinetic Bulwark can no longer restore charges. Consuming a charge of Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward increases defense chance by 1%. This effect stacks up to 10 times and lasts for 20 seconds or until Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward is reactivated. (43)

11. Fixed an issue where Reckless Defense/Potent Defense was incorrectly adding multiple stacks with Depredating Volts/Cascading Debris.

12. Gloom Ward now does 50% more damage upon Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward breaking from damage.

13. Increased the duration of Reckless Defense/Potent Defense from 6 seconds to 10 seconds. 

1. I think this is a positive change, for context I enjoy playing a skank tank build even if it’s not as effective as it used to be. Any damage bonus is a plus.

2. Again, more damage is a gain.

3. & 4. This improves the rotation and makes it less RNG based when target is below 30% health or using Reaper’s Rush.

5. Makes Spike a more useful choice in PVP particularly.

6. More Damage Reduction (DR) on Assassin is needed as it is the squishiest tank currently, so this is a positive change.

7. The self-healing from Dark Forces needs to be greater for this to compete with Overcharge Saber (OS). The Assassin has fewer effective DCD’s than the other tanks and so giving up OS is a big decision. Rather than restoring force maybe it could offer 5% improved shield chance for 3 seconds and 2.5% healing.

8. Again, more DR on the squishiest tank is positive.

9. Seems to be a more useful ability, especially in war zones, but will need to see how useful it is in live.

10. a)Reducing the charges of Dark Ward is positive as it will allow proc’ing the secondary effects of our choices more easily.

b) However, this makes Dark Bulwark (DB) useless as a passive, could the RNG for DB used to reflect damage rather than restore a charge. This would not offer major damage but would be better than a passive which does nothing.

c) As it stands defence chance is too low per point to offer useful mitigation. Without boosting defence chance numbers this effect seems weak, I would change to shield or absorption. This would address the aforementioned ‘squishiness’

11. Fixed an issue which is good.

12. Damage buff will probably not be enough to make Gloom Ward viable but see above Dark Forces comments which would make Gloom a strong consideration.

13. Buff to Reckless defence is good but it is still unlikely to outperform OS.

 

Feedback from fellow players on what I have proposed would be great.

[JadenDeCarlo]

On 11/10/2022 at 9:53 PM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

The Draining Center/Melting Center ability mod has been redesigned. It now reads: 

• “Force Rend deals twice its initial damage whenever it consumes a stack of Berserk and heals you for 50% of the damage that it deals.”

So, after testing this on PTS I only found issues with this particular change:

As of right now, I am sure someone has mad a mistake on the actual PTS servers as the mod actually reads: "Force Rend deals FOUR times it's initial damage whenever it consumes a stack of Berserk and heals you for 100% of the dmagae it deals."

So that got me thinking and while I can understand that compromises have to be made, cutting the dmg by half and taking away stack generation is a tad harsh. The other buffs can not compensate for what is being lost here.

So I suggest to either:
- Keep the 4x dmg multiplyer + 50% health (instead of 100%)
OR:
- Give us only 2x dmg multiplyer but let us keep the Fury stack generation instead of giving us health.

Annihilation is a good DPS class but requires to be on bosses constantly due to it's DoT based melee dmg. A lot of fights in Operations do not allow you this luxery. The most recent example being the R-4 Operation in which ,most bosses don't let melee DPS stay on them for long. Annihilation players need that bit of burst so they can keep up with other classes and stay relevant, so I am asking you to either concider the options I have listed, or let the mod stay the way it is. 

Going with what is listed in the forums (2x dmg + 50% heal) is a rather big nerf.

[Spor]

On 11/10/2022 at 2:53 PM, Shabir_Dhillon said:

The Ward of the Continuum tactical has been redesigned. It now does the following:

• Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward now has 10 charges and Dark Bulwark/Kinetic Bulwark can no longer restore charges. Consuming a charge of Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward increases defense chance by 1%. This effect stacks up to 10 times and lasts for 20 seconds or until Dark Ward/Kinetic Ward is reactivated. (43)

I have not had a chance to test yet (working on setting up PTS now), but with it just being defense chance, I still will have trouble picking this over 2 cloaks.  The utility of being able to shroud 3 times (shroud and then twice from force cloak) when tanking far outweighs defense chance in the majority of fights.  The rest of the changes seem nice and will provide feedback when I get to test them, but was curious about this.

[ChrisDurel]

Hello all,

I wanted to respond to some of the things brought up in this thread. First of all, I want to thank everyone for their feedback on these changes.

There has been a lot of discussion around Marauder changes, particularly Annihilation. I would like to give a little reasoning as to why these changes are being made, so as we continue feedback y'all can have the context of what the goal here is.

Annihilation / Watchmen (from here out I'll just call them Annihilation) were consistently outperforming our DPS targets slightly and we noticed their level 23 mod choices were very unbalanced. While we enjoyed the gameplay this offered, unfortunately it made their optimal DPS require a strict rotation that was only usable if they selected the Draining Center mod choice. The redesign for these choices was to make all mods at level 23 competitive with one another. On PTS, any choice Annihilation makes at level 23 is a now a good one. While some are slightly better at others in some circumstances, there is no "wrong" choice.

We understand this removes a particular rotation people enjoyed in 7.0, but we believe it opens the door for more playstyle choices as multiple mod choice paths offer competitive DPS. We are exploring ways to give a semblance of this back without making it the best-in-slot.

To be perfectly clear, any choice on Force Rend that makes it into a burst damage ability should not be the optimal DPS choice, so it cannot outperform the rest in all cases, but can be close. Annihilation has never been intended to be a burst class, and while we seek it give some burst options with mod choices, we do not want these choices to be out-and-out above the rest.

I hope that clears up the reasoning behind why we've done some things we've done. As we continue to gather feedback, please keep these in mind. But I would like to request that you try some of the other Annihilation mods and see how you feel about the rotation and damage output.

[RikuvonDrake]

reasonable, now nerf deception cause its too good honestly

[bdaviau]

Sure, the mara nerf makes sense, but can you explain how juggs were essentially untouched? Are they to your point, INTENDED to jugg smash their way to the promised land? I have seen a good amount of juggs who do not seem to effectively do this, but really good players will far outmatch any other aoe class (specifically for aoe boss encounters), yet your intended developer math skills ignore the fact that juggs have generally been more effective than maras all along, yet you nerf one class, yet the other is perfectly balanced. Please explain this to me.

[Sikssix]

4 minutes ago, ChrisDurel said:

Annihilation / Watchmen (from here out I'll just call them Annihilation) were consistently outperforming our DPS targets slightly and we noticed their level 23 mod choices were very unbalanced

What was unbalanced about it?  The current (live) choices are some what valid, use one for focus target, another for AOE specific applications.  Could you show us what you mean by the DPS targets?  What are you referring to?

6 minutes ago, ChrisDurel said:

While we enjoyed the gameplay this offered, unfortunately it made their optimal DPS require a strict rotation that was only usable if they selected the Draining Center mod choice. The redesign for these choices was to make all mods at level 23 competitive with one another. On PTS, any choice Annihilation makes at level 23 is a now a good one. While some are slightly better at others in some circumstances, there is no "wrong" choice.

I would have to disagree.  While there is still a certain amount I still don't understand, taking away the ability to build stacks of center (watchman reference) will require us to rely on RNG for other abilities to build centering and focus regen more heavily than it already does.  While I was able to obtain 34K DPS on both live and PTS, the issue with the PTS was I had to wait 1-3 GCDs on Force Melt just to get Zen, so using that with the X2 Force Melt damage (instead of X4) will hurt more than expected.

 

10 minutes ago, ChrisDurel said:

We understand this removes a particular rotation people enjoyed in 7.0, but we believe it opens the door for more playstyle choices as multiple mod choice paths offer competitive DPS. We are exploring ways to give a semblance of this back without making it the best-in-slot.

It isn't quite the rotation, while it does the job nicely, it's more so on stability in operations.  

 

11 minutes ago, ChrisDurel said:

To be perfectly clear, any choice on Force Rend that makes it into a burst damage ability should not be the optimal DPS choice, so it cannot outperform the rest in all cases, but can be close. Annihilation has never been intended to be a burst class, and while we seek it give some burst options with mod choices, we do not want these choices to be out-and-out above the rest.

The first sentence I do agree with you, however, there are a lot of fights (looking at R4) that require burst.  

 

12 minutes ago, ChrisDurel said:

I hope that clears up the reasoning behind why we've done some things we've done. As we continue to gather feedback, please keep these in mind. But I would like to request that you try some of the other Annihilation mods and see how you feel about the rotation and damage output.

Some of it is cleared up.  There are better ways to clean this up, as I stated plenty of times, I noticed Force Fracture has been given a damage boost, however, when it comes to replacing Cauterize, is a silly thing.  It would be wise to have the option to replace Slash instead of Cauterize, additionally, let the tactical Spiteful Saber still work with the Cauterize burn while using Force Fracture, Leaving the Focus cost the same instead of taking over Slash completely, so that way we have to re-evaluate our rotation effectively while still dealing the ideal DPS.  That or get a tactical that works for Force Fracture.

 

Most importantly.  I believe there are other specs that are in cry for help so the DPS between every single subclass can actually compete (if we are going bring out measuring sticks here).  I will continue testing when I can and report back.

[ChrisDurel]

23 minutes ago, Sikssix said:

What was unbalanced about it?  The current (live) choices are some what valid, use one for focus target, another for AOE specific applications.  Could you show us what you mean by the DPS targets?  What are you referring to?

I would have to disagree.  While there is still a certain amount I still don't understand, taking away the ability to build stacks of center (watchman reference) will require us to rely on RNG for other abilities to build centering and focus regen more heavily than it already does.  While I was able to obtain 34K DPS on both live and PTS, the issue with the PTS was I had to wait 1-3 GCDs on Force Melt just to get Zen, so using that with the X2 Force Melt damage (instead of X4) will hurt more than expected.

 

It isn't quite the rotation, while it does the job nicely, it's more so on stability in operations.  

 

The first sentence I do agree with you, however, there are a lot of fights (looking at R4) that require burst.  

 

Some of it is cleared up.  There are better ways to clean this up, as I stated plenty of times, I noticed Force Fracture has been given a damage boost, however, when it comes to replacing Cauterize, is a silly thing.  It would be wise to have the option to replace Slash instead of Cauterize, additionally, let the tactical Spiteful Saber still work with the Cauterize burn while using Force Fracture, Leaving the Focus cost the same instead of taking over Slash completely, so that way we have to re-evaluate our rotation effectively while still dealing the ideal DPS.  That or get a tactical that works for Force Fracture.

 

Most importantly.  I believe there are other specs that are in cry for help so the DPS between every single subclass can actually compete (if we are going bring out measuring sticks here).  I will continue testing when I can and report back.

Hi, thanks for your reply. I will try to answer a few of these as best as I can.

When picking Draining Center, their DPS was too high. The other choices did not bring their DPS nearly to what it was with Draining Center. PTS evens this out a bit more.

And you can still build Centering / Fury stacks with Force Melt / Rend, when choosing the Juyo Melt / Rend mod choice instead. The functionality is simply now spread across multiple mod choices to not make one a clear winner in all situations. Draining Center was giving great burst in addition to adding stacks of Centering. Rotationally, if you choose Juyo Melt on PTS, you can still play the exact same way you could previously (Zen right before Force Melt), you just won't get the 4x damage on Force Melt anymore, but you will build stacks at exactly the same rate.

As far as Force Fracture, this was never intended to wholesale replace Cauterize in operations, it is simply a more burst option if you like it. It has been improved to be more competitive, but it is not supposed to be equal to the others in terms of damage output.

[PerKIA]

1 hour ago, RikuvonDrake said:

reasonable, now nerf deception cause its too good honestly

Absolutley not, not again.  What they should do is give a 20% boost on  "awakend Flame". as they said they would!

[ArchingBeast]

5 hours ago, ChrisDurel said:

Hi, thanks for your reply. I will try to answer a few of these as best as I can.

When picking Draining Center, their DPS was too high. The other choices did not bring their DPS nearly to what it was with Draining Center. PTS evens this out a bit more.

And you can still build Centering / Fury stacks with Force Melt / Rend, when choosing the Juyo Melt / Rend mod choice instead. The functionality is simply now spread across multiple mod choices to not make one a clear winner in all situations. Draining Center was giving great burst in addition to adding stacks of Centering. Rotationally, if you choose Juyo Melt on PTS, you can still play the exact same way you could previously (Zen right before Force Melt), you just won't get the 4x damage on Force Melt anymore, but you will build stacks at exactly the same rate.

As far as Force Fracture, this was never intended to wholesale replace Cauterize in operations, it is simply a more burst option if you like it. It has been improved to be more competitive, but it is not supposed to be equal to the others in terms of damage output.

I understand that you wanted to even out the choices a little more in terms of strength, but theres still a few issues with the current state:

a) Annilations power is not bound to it's DPS. Anni has such a universal utility arsenal that it outperforms many specs through this alone. One of these ultilities is the massive healing both to yourself and the group, which with the projected DPS output of the Draining/Bleeding center combo will increase to even greater levels (In fights where constant Healing is needed, 2 Anni Marauders heal about the same amount that a poor healer does without sacrificing any DPS or GCDs, and thats on live). Therefore, Anni, if anything, needs less heals than before, or the class needs to be punished DPS-wise for the extra Healing.

b) The original feedback was aimed at the supposed "smoothing" these changes archieved. In my eyes, the opposite effect has rung true, with the class gameplay being clunky and unsatisfying if played for top HPS (Drain/Bleed), having much more Rage than necessary (Juyo/Bleeding), or just about not managing a stable rotation for barely more DPS that the "safer choice" (Juyo/Blood Fury, compared to Juyo/Bleeding). [edit: testing on the PTS after the bug fix of Draining Center shows that every combination of these Mods deals pretty much the same DPS]

This could probably be easily fixed with the following simple suggestion:

Move the extra rage Bleeding Center gives to Blood Fury.

This would archieve the following:

- Juyo/Bleeding Center combo would not drown in so much rage that the Debuff from Battering Assault runs out, yet still be a safe and easy option, basically working as it does on the live servers.

- Juyo/Blood Fury combo would archieve a stable, if more difficult rotation compared to Juyo/Bleeding with an actual DPS reward for the risk.

- Draining/Bleeding Center combo would be punished DPS-wise for the increased healing, since with less Rage, Berserk would be up less due to less Rage-consuming producing Fury stacks in a given time window.

 

Please, continue to closely monitor our feedback. As a member of the part community that's probably spending the most time out of everyone with these classes and mechanics, we want them to be the most polished, balanced and fun they can be, and all of our feedback, including this post, intends to archieve exactly that. Thank You for considerating.

Neophyte

Edited November 16, 2022 by ArchingBeast
Synthax and clarification

[Aethyriel]

1 hour ago, ChrisDurel said:

I hope that clears up the reasoning behind why we've done some things we've done. As we continue to gather feedback, please keep these in mind. But I would like to request that you try some of the other Annihilation mods and see how you feel about the rotation and damage output.

The rotation is bs and the DPS is bs as well. You either spam Berserk on CD with Juyo and Bleeding Center with zero skill involved while losing tons of DPS or you take Blood Fury and you STILL have a very tight rotation - the exact rotation you wanted to go away from - just with a little more DPs than the other choice but still WAY below what the class does now. There is no difference between the Draining + Blood Fury optimal DPS combo and the garbage you present as serviceable. The alternative is taking Draining and Bleeding and hoping you randomly crit enough times at the right time to get to 30 Fury ruining any chance at any rotation that is stable at any moment in time.

And quite frankly

13 minutes ago, ChrisDurel said:

And you can still build Centering / Fury stacks with Force Melt / Rend, when choosing the Juyo Melt / Rend mod choice instead. The functionality is simply now spread across multiple mod choices to not make one a clear winner in all situations.

this is just looking at it the wrong way. There is always a clear winner and it's not doing next to no dmg with Juyo while simplifying the rotation and just pushing random buttons for garbage DPS that at least anyone can pull off.

 

15 minutes ago, ChrisDurel said:

When picking Draining Center, their DPS was too high. The other choices did not bring their DPS nearly to what it was with Draining Center. PTS evens this out a bit more.

And what is the DPS supposed to be? Why change so much about it while ignoring that some content you created just requires some burst damage while you nerfed next to every burst spec in the game into oblivion as is? I mean, we told you we like the old rotation and liked being rewarded for actually playing well and now the only difference between playing well and doing things right and pushing random crap at random times is like 1k dps. Way to cater to the casuals running DF Story mode and nothing else.

 

16 minutes ago, ChrisDurel said:

Rotationally, if you choose Juyo Melt on PTS, you can still play the exact same way you could previously (Zen right before Force Melt), you just won't get the 4x damage on Force Melt anymore, but you will build stacks at exactly the same rate.

You only lose some 3k DPS and the only bust outside of Annihilate you had. What a fantastic deal. What a great design decision.

Seriously, if your mind is already made up, stop wasting our time pretending to want feedback. Just with Lightning, Deception or APT PT - everybody told you your ideas suck, your changes were ruinous and you went through with it anyway. Now next to nobody plays those classes any longer. So at least have the decency to stop pretending you give a damn and just do your stuff and ruin yet another class. What a waste of time it was again to try to talk sense into your oblivious and disconnected design team.

[Sikssix]

16 minutes ago, ChrisDurel said:

Hi, thanks for your reply. I will try to answer a few of these as best as I can.

When picking Draining Center, their DPS was too high. The other choices did not bring their DPS nearly to what it was with Draining Center. PTS evens this out a bit more.

And you can still build Centering / Fury stacks with Force Melt / Rend, when choosing the Juyo Melt / Rend mod choice instead. The functionality is simply now spread across multiple mod choices to not make one a clear winner in all situations. Draining Center was giving great burst in addition to adding stacks of Centering. Rotationally, if you choose Juyo Melt on PTS, you can still play the exact same way you could previously (Zen right before Force Melt), you just won't get the 4x damage on Force Melt anymore, but you will build stacks at exactly the same rate.

As far as Force Fracture, this was never intended to wholesale replace Cauterize in operations, it is simply a more burst option if you like it. It has been improved to be more competitive, but it is not supposed to be equal to the others in terms of damage output.

I appreciate the response.  Without everything else, the first two sentences I can understand fully now, however, with what we have on the live server, keeping Melting Center as is allows us to go with either Force Clarity or Burning Zen.   As I said, I have more testing to do when I am able to, so I can't fully disclose everything until otherwise.  

 

While yes, you can still build centering/fury with Force Melt/Rend, however, you do lose overall good DPS for low end and stable DoTs, this piece I have tested and saw a DPS reduction of 2k DPS at most, if it were 1.5k-500 DPS loss, then I would not complain and moan about it.  The big concern is on PTS, when you opt for x4 Force Melt (x2 if corrected), you're heavily relying on RNG for centering stacks and focus a lot more than before, which feels really off and dull.  it also makes it harder to keep on the boss in operations, depending on fight (heavily glaring at R4).  

Force Fracture, I will test this as a burst ordeal on both live and PTS.  It would benefit if there was a tactical that works with it.  besides that, it's not enough DPS to justify using it.  I do believe Force Fracture has serious potential to replace Slash and as what I described, I believe it would make it as fun to play.  As I said, I will be testing Force Fracture and respond back about it.

[vanluina]

1 hour ago, ChrisDurel said:

Hi, thanks for your reply. I will try to answer a few of these as best as I can.

When picking Draining Center, their DPS was too high. The other choices did not bring their DPS nearly to what it was with Draining Center. PTS evens this out a bit more.

And you can still build Centering / Fury stacks with Force Melt / Rend, when choosing the Juyo Melt / Rend mod choice instead. The functionality is simply now spread across multiple mod choices to not make one a clear winner in all situations. Draining Center was giving great burst in addition to adding stacks of Centering. Rotationally, if you choose Juyo Melt on PTS, you can still play the exact same way you could previously (Zen right before Force Melt), you just won't get the 4x damage on Force Melt anymore, but you will build stacks at exactly the same rate.

As far as Force Fracture, this was never intended to wholesale replace Cauterize in operations, it is simply a more burst option if you like it. It has been improved to be more competitive, but it is not supposed to be equal to the others in terms of damage output.

I just got an the PTS and saw that the change to Force Rend was put through, and like we all said, it kills our DPS. Switching Draining Center to 2x damage is a solid 2K drop in DPS, what's the point of playing Annihilation anymore when I can do 3K better with Fury?

Do you guys even listen to your player base? RIP Annihilation. 

[Sikssix]

1 minute ago, vanluina said:

I just got an the PTS and saw that the change to Force Rend was put through, and like we all said, it kills our DPS. Switching Draining Center to 2x damage is a solid 2K drop in DPS, what's the point of playing Annihilation anymore when I can do 3K better with Fury?

Do you guys even listen to your player base? RIP Annihilation. 

Could you provide what you're parsing on live, then on PTS, and as well as what your rotation basically goes as?  I can probably provide some assistance here.

[codydmaan]

2 hours ago, ChrisDurel said:

Hi, thanks for your reply. I will try to answer a few of these as best as I can.

When picking Draining Center, their DPS was too high. The other choices did not bring their DPS nearly to what it was with Draining Center. PTS evens this out a bit more.

And you can still build Centering / Fury stacks with Force Melt / Rend, when choosing the Juyo Melt / Rend mod choice instead. The functionality is simply now spread across multiple mod choices to not make one a clear winner in all situations. Draining Center was giving great burst in addition to adding stacks of Centering. Rotationally, if you choose Juyo Melt on PTS, you can still play the exact same way you could previously (Zen right before Force Melt), you just won't get the 4x damage on Force Melt anymore, but you will build stacks at exactly the same rate.

As far as Force Fracture, this was never intended to wholesale replace Cauterize in operations, it is simply a more burst option if you like it. It has been improved to be more competitive, but it is not supposed to be equal to the others in terms of damage output.

Your not listening to the community at all. Like others said your not listening to feedback. Your taking one of the most loved specs in the game and completely ruining it. Please 🙏 for the Love of the force don't do this to the community.

[Char_Ell]

Considering most, not all, of the responses to Chris Durel I have to think this is where BioWare has to really consider the wisdom of providing any direct written response to players' concerns.  "You're not listening to the community at all" seems quite hyperbolic to me.  Many players seem to think that if they tell BioWare something then BioWare should do what they say.  What we have here is a classic disagreement.  BioWare explains their reasoning and some players make their argument for why they think BioWare is wrong.  Listening is not the same as doing what one is told.  Someone can tell me to go jump off a cliff and I can read and understand what they said so I "listened" to them.  I just chose to not do what they told me to do.

[Sikssix]

Just now, Char_Ell said:

Considering most, not all, of the responses to Chris Durel I have to think this is where BioWare has to really consider the wisdom of providing any direct written response to players' concerns.  "You're not listening to the community at all" seems quite hyperbolic to me.  Many players seem to think that if they tell BioWare something then BioWare should do what they say.  What we have here is a classic disagreement.  BioWare explains their reasoning and some players make their argument for why they think BioWare is wrong.  Listening is not the same as doing what one is told.  Someone can tell me to go jump off a cliff and I can read and understand what they said so I "listened" to them.  I just chose to not do what they told me to do.

Are you fine with the changes coming 7.2?  I am going to simply state, I am aware my input and my concerns will be heard/read, but I am also aware that won't change anything.  I am sure they have reasons, however, those reasons can be either good or bad, which this case, it's pretty poor.  For some reason I keep reading this as you supporting their choice, but that is not what I am assuming.  Some of the changes are a bit extreme and they have yet to provide any data on their changes as of this post here.  What I do hope is they would consider and further communicate with us and test with us on the PTS to find the perfect median for everyone to be happy.