Does anybody actually like the gear and class changes?

[Sarova]

For the most part (and I'm really surprised at myself) YES. If they fix loadouts including ability bars so your abilities stay where you put them (loadouts currently don't work unless you choose your class original spec on the PTS) AND fix the weapons slot in the outfitter so I can always have my favourite weapons on show regardless of combat choice, I will have no problem with any of the gear/class changes whatsoever. Gearing is nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be.

 

Originally, I did not like how the new tree made us choose between several formerly "must have" abilities as I thought this would ruin PvP. I did a bit of PvP on the PTS and was surprised at how balanced (and enjoyable) unranked was, compared with the hell that is currently live unranked.

 

I don't have a problem waiting until finishing act 3 of the class story to get my alternate spec either. I think the delaying of 7.0 allowed lots of us to get a much wider experience of what they are doing and I really like the changes. I am a soloer (primarily story) though so people who do a lot of (or only) group stuff may have a different opinion/experience.

[Pallais]

[snip]

Being unable to respec in your phase though... that's dumb.

 

When the combat styles and loadouts were announced, people immediately started talking about how that folks would require everyone to switch to a stealth spec in flashpoints / ops to avoid as much trash as possible. The fear was that if you didn't people would start kicking non-stealth characters. I suspect not being able to swap in phases is Bioware's way of getting around this potential social problem. It would also match the behavior you would want in PvP (no spec changing).

[Scattergun]

I'm not happy with it. I really don't like how spread out the abilities are, and I wish they'd let me craft item mods up to max level. Then do Flashpoints to get the stronger mods to do raids with, then get progressively stronger mods doing the harder raids. I think the new character creation screen and ui is atrocious and hope it gets scrapped. Honestly, giving characters more weapons to choose from is the only good thing I've seen in this.

[Nepthen]

When the combat styles and loadouts were announced, people immediately started talking about how that folks would require everyone to switch to a stealth spec in flashpoints / ops to avoid as much trash as possible. The fear was that if you didn't people would start kicking non-stealth characters. I suspect not being able to swap in phases is Bioware's way of getting around this potential social problem. It would also match the behavior you would want in PvP (no spec changing).

 

BioWare out here taking away our fun before we can do it!

[gidder]

As I mentioned above, we would have to wait and see if this system will be something to he excited about. But as far as it is fleshed out on the pts it's alright. People on the internet always preaching doomsday, and it was the case with every expansion.

 

I thought this was the case initially too. However, going back through the forums this is absolutely not the case. Sure there were some complaints, but overall the reaction to the changes was positive. These 7.0 changes on the other hand are completely inverted. Most comments negative with a minority positive. The only change they are making that was met with mostly positive reactions is the class styles and load outs.

 

Take a look through the forums yourself and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

[Toraak]

BioWare out here taking away our fun before we can do it!

 

Good for BW on that. Because in truth kicking someone for not having a stealth class would definitely happen in FP's, and that behavior should be stopped before it even starts.

 

I know most of my characters will not choose a 2nd combat style. The ones that do will most likely not have stealth as the 2nd one. If I wanted to play a stealth class I'd be on my stealth character, instead of one of my non stealth characters.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Toraak

[DarthSpekulatius]

Good for BW on that. Because in truth kicking someone for not having a stealth class would definitely happen in FP's, and that behavior should be stopped before it even starts.

 

if that would actually happen why doesn't it happen already?

if you would kick non stealth characters after the change you would kick them now.

 

letting us switch the first one or two minutes after entering a Flashpoint is a must, if inside is not possible for technical reasons, we need a "coordinating phase" before the teleport where we are dropped from our current combat (in case we do dailies or whatever).

unless we get auto-assigned our chosen loadout while in the load screen, I have no clue how the game would know if I want to be Shadow or Guardian tank or (If I actually get to DPS) which of the 4 DPS specs I want to play for group content.

my guess is the Game simply wouldn't, even if it did know my usual preference, it wouldn't know whether I would want to change my usual preference based on the remainder of the Group or the FP the Groupfinder random chance picked for me.

trying to prevent griefing by players by means of constantly griefing the players as Devs doesn't seem like a solution to me.

 

as for inside Operations, considering Stealth won't drop Combat anymore, switching anytime (as long as you aren't in Combat) would be great QOL without any downsides, if people want to skip trash by having stealth secondaries, let them. Letting people do what they want (as long as it's not to outraging and doesn't harm anyone else) isn't even a downside and as I said it would be nice QOL.

[TrixxieTriss]

I don’t like anything they’ve done for gearing or ability / utility changes. It’s why I’m unsubbed.

[Gyronamics]

if that would actually happen why doesn't it happen already?

if you would kick non stealth characters after the change you would kick them now.

 

letting us switch the first one or two minutes after entering a Flashpoint is a must, if inside is not possible for technical reasons, we need a "coordinating phase" before the teleport where we are dropped from our current combat (in case we do dailies or whatever).

unless we get auto-assigned our chosen loadout while in the load screen, I have no clue how the game would know if I want to be Shadow or Guardian tank or (If I actually get to DPS) which of the 4 DPS specs I want to play for group content.

my guess is the Game simply wouldn't, even if it did know my usual preference, it wouldn't know whether I would want to change my usual preference based on the remainder of the Group or the FP the Groupfinder random chance picked for me.

trying to prevent griefing by players by means of constantly griefing the players as Devs doesn't seem like a solution to me.

 

as for inside Operations, considering Stealth won't drop Combat anymore, switching anytime (as long as you aren't in Combat) would be great QOL without any downsides, if people want to skip trash by having stealth secondaries, let them. Letting people do what they want (as long as it's not to outraging and doesn't harm anyone else) isn't even a downside and as I said it would be nice QOL.

 

Swapping classes while inside instanced content devalues classes and the content.

[Toraak]

swapping classes while inside instanced content devalues classes and the content.

 

^ 100%.

[Sethenon]

if that would actually happen why doesn't it happen already?

if you would kick non stealth characters after the change you would kick them now.

 

Because right now they can't switch, but once people can swap there be quite a large number that do expect it from others. After a period of time, it will become the "gold standard" and eventually be required by some so they can run content as fast as possible. Then BW will put in roadblocks in order to alleviate the issue and in the process make stealth less important.

[Toraak]

Because right now they can't switch, but once people can swap there be quite a large number that do expect it from others. After a period of time, it will become the "gold standard" and eventually be required by some so they can run content as fast as possible. Then BW will put in roadblocks in order to alleviate the issue and in the process make stealth less important.

 

I'm waiting for the day all FP's heave Stealth detection in most trash mob groups. I won't pick a 2nd combat style on a lot of my characters because I kind of expect it to happen at some point.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Toraak

[Rolodome]

Good for BW on that. Because in truth kicking someone for not having a stealth class would definitely happen in FP's, and that behavior should be stopped before it even starts.

 

I know most of my characters will not choose a 2nd combat style. The ones that do will most likely not have stealth as the 2nd one. If I wanted to play a stealth class I'd be on my stealth character, instead of one of my non stealth characters.

I'm waiting for the day all FP's heave Stealth detection in most trash mob groups. I won't pick a 2nd combat style on a lot of my characters because I kind of expect it to happen at some point.

So ruining fun and creativity is important to head off a future that is based on wild conjecture assuming the absolute worst of the playerbase. It's mindset like this how fun video games end up becoming a restrictive bore.

 

Here is the reality of what would tend to happen if this wildly speculated approach came to pass as a "standard"*:

"Everyone have stealth combat style?"

"I do."

"Yeah."

"No I don't."

"Ok, guess we're killing trash then."

Level 80s who can mow through trash together proceed to pull.

 

 

*And it more than likely never would come to pass. Most people are not going to want to go through the hassle of setting up their 2nd combat style as a stealth class they may not want to play at all (wasting the one chance they get at giving combat variety to a character they like), just so they can skip a little trash when they play FPs.

[Floplag]

There is a lot to like, i think people are grossly overreacting. Is it perfect, no, far from it, but thats moot. Well see more as it moves forward.

Yes, i hate the new trees and the choice they are making us make and the skill pruning. I wish weapons in outfit designer made it in. There are things i could list i dont like.

BUT... multi-specs, loadouts, the awesomeness of that cannot be understated. Its a massive upgrade to quality of life. For me that alone outweighs everything noted above. The ability to finally rid myself of having to carry a house on my back on my commando and play more a "Rex" style, yes please.

There are always nay sayers, but if this is making you leave... all i can say is i wish you luck in whatever game you land because literally all of them have these kinds of issues or worse.

[Toraak]

So ruining fun and creativity is important to head off a future that is based on wild conjecture assuming the absolute worst of the playerbase. It's mindset like this how fun video games end up becoming a restrictive bore.

 

Here is the reality of what would tend to happen if this wildly speculated approach came to pass as a "standard"*:

"Everyone have stealth combat style?"

"I do."

"Yeah."

"No I don't."

"Ok, guess we're killing trash then."

Level 80s who can mow through trash together proceed to pull.

 

 

*And it more than likely never would come to pass. Most people are not going to want to go through the hassle of setting up their 2nd combat style as a stealth class they may not want to play at all (wasting the one chance they get at giving combat variety to a character they like), just so they can skip a little trash when they play FPs.

 

Maybe that's because I've seen such behavior countless times in Pug FP's over the years. Oh you didn't do this skip that is normally done, and someone starts a vote to kick (I always decline it). Or oh you can't make this jump to avoid some trash mobs? yell at them, and then a vote to kick goes out. (again I decline). If you do enough pugs you'll run into these kinds of players consistently. While it won't be the entire playerbase, there will definitely be at least a few like this.

 

And besides we shouldn't be able to stealth from boss to boss ignoring all of the content in the FP anyway, which is what would happen if we could swap in a phase. If that was the intention, then why not have just bosses in all FP's, and no mobs whatsoever? How boring would it be to have a FP with 4-5 rooms next to each other? Walk in kill one boss go to the next room and kill the next. That would just be the opposite of an uprising, and from what I've seen I don't know of many that do uprisings once the achievements are done.

[Rolodome]

There are always nay sayers, but if this is making you leave... all i can say is i wish you luck in whatever game you land because literally all of them have these kinds of issues or worse.

Lol no they don't. I can only assume you haven't played much beside SWTOR if you really think this.

[Rolodome]

Maybe that's because I've seen such behavior countless times in Pug FP's over the years. Oh you didn't do this skip that is normally done, and someone starts a vote to kick (I always decline it). Or oh you can't make this jump to avoid some trash mobs? yell at them, and then a vote to kick goes out. (again I decline). If you do enough pugs you'll run into these kinds of players consistently. While it won't be the entire playerbase, there will definitely be at least a few like this.

 

And besides we shouldn't be able to stealth from boss to boss ignoring all of the content in the FP anyway, which is what would happen if we could swap in a phase. If that was the intention, then why not have just bosses in all FP's, and no mobs whatsoever? How boring would it be to have a FP with 4-5 rooms next to each other? Walk in kill one boss go to the next room and kill the next. That would just be the opposite of an uprising, and from what I've seen I don't know of many that do uprisings once the achievements are done.

I guess I haven't done them enough then because I can't recall ever seeing someone vote kicked for not doing a particular skip or failing to make a jump. The kicks or leaving I most see are when someone repeatedly insists on doing their own thing to the detriment of the group, without even explaining their actions, or two people start bickering about how to do things.

 

There is nothing wrong with being able to stealth past trash. Most groups can't and will never do it. The fact that it's appealing at all is a testament to: 1) how boring trash is and 2) how unrewarding it is in the imposed progression treadmill. If trash dropped the same kind of loot bosses do, you can bet there'd be less trash skipping. It's a design problem and trying to force people out of doing what saves them time in a time-wasting system never helps, they just grow ever more resentful and petty about avoiding the time-wasting BS however they can.

 

One of the reasons so many people are in a rush to begin with is because of these time-wasting systems that put all the rewards at the bosses and at the end. Not to mention a lot of trash just takes too long to kill and is obnoxiously spread out in creative ways so it's harder to kill efficiently unless you get everyone on the same page with proper LOS pulls. This is 10 year old content, people can't be expected to enjoy trash mob pull #6 in a FP they've played hundreds or thousands of times over the years. But if that pull gave them meaningful progress at least, then they'd have a reason to do it like they have a reason to do the rest of the 10 year old content.

[Toraak]

I do the normal skips for the FP's myself.

However for those that want to do FP's as fast as possible there will be a few that will expect that everyone has a stealth as the 2nd class for the fact it'll allow for such speed when running FP's. Not everyone in the playerbas of course, but there will be a few.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Toraak

[Sethenon]

So ruining fun and creativity is important to head off a future that is based on wild conjecture assuming the absolute worst of the playerbase. It's mindset like this how fun video games end up becoming a restrictive bore.

 

Here is the reality of what would tend to happen if this wildly speculated approach came to pass as a "standard"*:

"Everyone have stealth combat style?"

"I do."

"Yeah."

"No I don't."

"Ok, guess we're killing trash then."

Level 80s who can mow through trash together proceed to pull.

 

 

*And it more than likely never would come to pass. Most people are not going to want to go through the hassle of setting up their 2nd combat style as a stealth class they may not want to play at all (wasting the one chance they get at giving combat variety to a character they like), just so they can skip a little trash when they play FPs.

 

For the casual player, I agree, it most likely won't occur but for static organized groups? Yes, it will, the group I run with is already planning on how to run things as quickly as possible.

[Floplag]

Lol no they don't. I can only assume you haven't played much beside SWTOR if you really think this.

 

You would be mistaken.

But hey you do you, i wish you luck.

[Rolodome]

You would be mistaken.

But hey you do you, i wish you luck.

I'm not, dunno why you're insisting on a false version of reality.

[DarthSpekulatius]

Swapping classes while inside instanced content devalues classes and the content.

 

if that was the case, why is relogging in the Game?

[sARCASM]

shouldn't a character leaving just brick the Lockout until that exact character returns? also switching specs should be disabled you should have to choose your class, spec, tactical, utilities, Gear and color crystal on the initial character creation so they get the proper value they deserve

[/sARCASM]

being able to adapt to the Encounter feels great it allows you to make the best out of niche strengths without dragging you down when the major weaknesses that suppress that strength rear their ugly Heads. That GIVES value to a class and Content.

if it's the middle of a multi stage Boss fight yes absolutely block changing Specs, but if you can relog for something you should be able to just switch Combat style for it!

[DarthSpekulatius]

Because right now they can't switch, but once people can swap there be quite a large number that do expect it from others. After a period of time, it will become the "gold standard" and eventually be required by some so they can run content as fast as possible. Then BW will put in roadblocks in order to alleviate the issue and in the process make stealth less important.

 

sure they could switch: hit esc, click logout, double click a Stealth class, DONE! it can't get any easier than that.

People who enjoy playing the Game play as long as it's enjoyable, people who only play for rewards, play for rewards.

this is this and that is that and other things are other things! it can't be generalized.

Forcing anything is never a fun & motivating thing.

[Sethenon]

sure they could switch: hit esc, click logout, double click a Stealth class, DONE! it can't get any easier than that.

People who enjoy playing the Game play as long as it's enjoyable, people who only play for rewards, play for rewards.

this is this and that is that and other things are other things! it can't be generalized.

Forcing anything is never a fun & motivating thing.

 

I'm not commenting on whether it's a good thing or bad. That's up to each individual to decide for themselves. I'm simply stating that *for some people* it will become mandatory. Once it becomes more normalized BW will respond (because they already have done so many times). You are correct: forcing people to do things isn't ever fun (that applies to BW just as much as it does for players).

[DarthSpekulatius]

Maybe that's because I've seen such behavior countless times in Pug FP's over the years. Oh you didn't do this skip that is normally done, and someone starts a vote to kick (I always decline it).

-> afaik if one person declined it (in FPs at least) the kick should have been aborted -> nothing bad happened. I can't see any Problem.

 

And besides we shouldn't be able to stealth from boss to boss ignoring all of the content in the FP anyway, which is what would happen if we could swap in a phase. If that was the intention, then why not have just bosses in all FP's, and no mobs whatsoever? How boring would it be to have a FP with 4-5 rooms next to each other? Walk in kill one boss go to the next room and kill the next. That would just be the opposite of an uprising, and from what I've seen I don't know of many that do uprisings once the achievements are done.

exactly that! that is why there aren't just Boss Rooms but stealthable trash in between so that people who want to stealth past trash can do that, and people who like fighting can fight. making decisions without long lasting adverse effects are actually one of the fun and relaxing things you can do in a Game. Stealth games are actually an entire genre of Games that quite a few people enjoy.

 

For the casual player, I agree, it most likely won't occur but for static organized groups? Yes, it will, the group I run with is already planning on how to run things as quickly as possible.

do you dislike that kind of gameplay? if you do, did you tell your Group that you prefer different gameplay?

how did your group react and what compromise did you collectively arrive at?

in my opinion, the best thing about cooperative gameplay is the cooperation but I guess not everyone thinks that.

 

I'm not commenting on whether it's a good thing or bad. That's up to each individual to decide for themselves. I'm simply stating that *for some people* it will become mandatory. Once it becomes more normalized BW will respond (because they already have done so many times). You are correct: forcing people to do things isn't ever fun (that applies to BW just as much as it does for players).

 

when LV 55 hardmode FPs were introduced

1. they were hard and fun (and in a different que from the brainless gimmi gimmi grind FPs)

2. they had a Bonus Boss that rewarded Loot but required certain conditions to spawn

3. the Bonus was even harder then what's required to clear the FP

4. from a pure Gear per time spent consideration sneaking past everything skippable was better

5. it was fun so people killed the trash and the Boss

no artificial enforcement required, why not recreate that?