New expansion killing/limiting Solo players??

[ralphieceaser]

It is not WoW level bad where casuals had 30-40 ilvls below max gear but a small gear difference will sadly exist.

 

We ll see how it goes with best gear locked behind OPS only, hopefully they ll realize the problem and when they add crafting updates in a later patch maybe crafting can also craft max ilvl gear after a lot of farming.

 

There are gonna be far bigger problems though, if loot is quite limited and also likely you dont want it if it has the wrong stats, going for 6.0 where we were showered in gear for doing an MM FP to getting like 1-2 pieces is gonna cause a big backlash

Edited November 26, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[Thepyrethatburns]

 

- they are killing weeklies by resetting them every day (and dailies as well, forcing us to finish them in one go if we want ANY reward). So anyone who doesn't have time to finish those in one week/day will just not bother... At least now we can play at our own pace and get rewards for it...

 

 

Minor correction: They are killing weeklies every Tuesday. Not every day. For me, it boils down to "one sitting" because I may be able to break them up into 2 sessions but that's about it. At my age, I have other things that demand my attention besides SWTOR.

 

However, it will effectively still be a weekly.

[Damask_Rose]

Are they killing solo play? No. They are not removing any solo content (that we know of), and they are adding a little bit more.

 

Is it limiting solo players? Yes, depending on your playstyle. We won't have the gear for short-manning uprisings or flashpoints. We'll see if we have the gear for Eternal Championship and MM chapters. Solo players won't be able to gear up to do the occasional group content either. That will deter a decent chunk of solo players from doing occasional group content. (That's something Bioware and the raider community simply don't understand. A large chunk of solo players want to be over-geared for group content before they ever try it to give themselves confidence. The gear isn't the reward, it's the experience.)

 

What it does do is greatly reduce the rewards for completing solo content. You can still do most, if not all, of that content, but there is much less reason to repeat it.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Damask_Rose

[EllieAnne]

Yeah. At least for me. Unless you can put gear in loadouts, it's definitely going to kill my alt playing.

 

Which is why I think there is a lot of people thinking like I am. If there is no value in playing alts then why not go preferred?

[Rion_Starkiller]

According to BioWare, my monthly sub is worth less than a raider's. So I'm taking my money elsewhere.

 

Solely for one tier of gear? Can I have your stuff? No offense, but it sounds like you were probably on your way out the door anyway.

 

Raiders didn't ask for this change -- not that I know of. Do you think we want to re-gear for the same raids we're doing right now in 306's? Most of us didn't even bother to get the latest augments.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[ralphieceaser]

Raiders didn't ask for this change -- not that I know of.

Raiders have been moaning consistently about the gearing system because it doesnt treat them like somekind of special person who should have better gear than everyone else.

 

It is absolutely justified if people leave if best gear is only available through ops instead of available to all through multiple activities. Treating one type of player differently is wrong, simple.

 

For the people leaving, remember to write that down as the reason you left in the unsub survey, that they choose to treat raiders as a special class instead of giving access to max gear to everyone.

 

I feel that might be an experiment for the devs so hopefully one that fails

Edited November 27, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[Rion_Starkiller]

Raiders have been moaning consistently about the gearing system because it doesnt treat them like somekind of special person who should have better gear than everyone else.

 

Links?

 

Like I said, most of us don't even have 300 augments, so clearly we're not as interested in gear as you seem to think.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[xordevoreaux]

About the whole "you don't need max gear to solo" argument, I'd just say that you need something for get solo players to keep playing.

If the game's sole draw for any player is gear, solo or otherwise, the game has bigger issues. I never started playing a game because I wanted its gear grind. There was something else about the game that attracted me.

Edited November 27, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[RikuvonDrake]

its pretty smart of Bioware to create/give more incentives for players to engage with content/gameplay that has a higher retention rate and requires a subscription

[Strathkin]

its pretty smart of Bioware to create/give more incentives for players to engage with content/gameplay that has a higher retention rate and requires a subscription

 

I disagree cause even as a Sub, the far fewer places to earn the GEAR will really see far slower progression. Which is something many PEOPLE like to see. It also allowed far more people to QUEUE for a lot of CONTENT, where now it will be highly limited and you'll see people being KICKED a lot more from the NEW content.

 

I think it's very short-sighted and will hurt more than it helps LONG term. I could be wrong, yet really don't think so...

Edited November 27, 2021 by Strathkin

[ralphieceaser]

Like I said, most of us don't even have 300 augments, so clearly we're not as interested in gear as you seem to think.

Might have something to do with the exorbitant cost and the fact that it is gated behind the raid?

 

There was a huge outcry when they brought those in and as expected, nobody benefit other than a tiny minority who wanted to feel speciul.

Just like the system they are introducing in 7.0, nobody benefits, in reality, only a tiny minority benefits at the expense of the majority which has always been a very outdated design mentality.

 

Let's just hope this experiment fails just like it did in previous patches and they realize everyone should have access to max gear.

[Noxronin]

There is absolutely zero a solo player would encounter in this game requiring top tier gear. Most players can get by in PvE content in green gear just fine.

 

The only people who truly "need" top-tier gear are the PvP types, and then, only for the psychological kick in the head for thinking they're the uberist of the uber.

 

And if you sit there and say that you need top-end gear for nightmare ops, well guess what, at that point, you're not soloing.

 

They dont require top gear either since PVP gear will be capped. Having top gear wont do u any good in PVP.

[ralphieceaser]

They dont require top gear either since PVP gear will be capped. Having top gear wont do u any good in PVP.

Not only that, even in pve the best gear is a reward for killing a boss, therefore quite clear proof they dont NEED the gear either.

This has always been about bragging rights which is what most raiders truly want by keeping everyone else's ilvl inferior.

[AdjeYo]

Not only that, even in pve the best gear is a reward for killing a boss, therefore quite clear proof they dont NEED the gear either.

This has always been about bragging rights which is what most raiders truly want by keeping everyone else's ilvl inferior.

 

It's not about bragging rights it's about having a sense of progression in gearing. If max tier gear is handed out from flashpoint spamming like on live right now, everybody's stepping into NiMs with fully kitted out gear. There's no more sense of character progression from doing NiM ops.

 

I have very big concerns about stat distriubtion between different kinds of gear and non modability of gear. But how does it affect you if I can earn one or two tiers of gear higher from NiM ops, making it more fun for me? Aks yourself this: If they removed the extra tiers from NiM operations and made max tier solo gear the highest achievable gear (and earnable though any content) would that be preferable to you?

[ralphieceaser]

It's not about bragging rights it's about having a sense of progression in gearing.

1-Kinda shows how the "you dont need it" argument is an excuse

2-I agree that we get geared too fast, solution to that is easy though, simply reduce the amount of gear dropped so again, everyone is able to grind to max ilvl gear with the content of their choice, reduce currencies etc to lengthen the grind

 

Progression is a major mmoRPG element and it is NOT limited to raids only, people enjoy progression of power therefore people should be allowed to progress to max by doing content they enjoy.

So the idea that everything should be nerfed just so raiders feel some special type of progression through the raid is again elitist and selfish in its core, if anything a minority shouldnt destroy the enjoyment of the majority like they ve done in games like WoW, where you either mythic raid or you cant get decent gear since many pieces and stat combos are not available from m+ so you are stopped from power progression.

 

I have very big concerns about stat distriubtion between different kinds of gear and non modability of gear. But how does it affect you if I can earn one or two tiers of gear higher from NiM ops, making it more fun for me? Aks yourself this: If they removed the extra tiers from NiM operations and made max tier solo gear the highest achievable gear (and earnable though any content) would that be preferable to you?

Because my gear progression is gutted or I am forced to do content I might not enjoy, more importantly the reason many people absolutely hate raids is because it requires actual interaction with people, a barrier many dont want to have to deal yet now they are forced if they want power progression.

 

Of course I would prefer max tier solo gear to be the highest achievable gear, that is fair because EVERYONE gets access to it instead of the system you suggest where only a minority gets access to it.

 

Again your argument quite literally boils down to raiders for some reason feeling entitled that they should be treated special at the expense of everyone else, that is simply wrong, I know that outdated mentality has come from years of devs following outdated mentalities like that, but that doesnt make it right.

[AdjeYo]

1-Kinda shows how the "you dont need it" argument is an excuse

2-I agree that we get geared too fast, solution to that is easy though, simply reduce the amount of gear dropped so again, everyone is able to grind to max ilvl gear with the content of their choice, reduce currencies etc to lengthen the grind

 

Progression is a major mmoRPG element and it is NOT limited to raids only, people enjoy progression of power therefore people should be allowed to progress to max by doing content they enjoy.

So the idea that everything should be nerfed just so raiders feel some special type of progression through the raid is again elitist and selfish in its core, if anything a minority shouldnt destroy the enjoyment of the majority like they ve done in games like WoW, where you either mythic raid or you cant get decent gear since many pieces and stat combos are not available from m+ so you are stopped from power progression.

 

You are not "nerfed" you have a similar gear progression as with 6.0 for the solo track. You still get that sense of progression. But if you drop BiS gear from solo content, that removes any sort of gear progression from NiM raids. In the PTS system, everyone gets to have their gear progression. Okay, it caps out at different levels, to make it so that raiders also improve their gear while progressing raids rather than getting their gear maxed out before going into raids.

 

Because my gear progression is gutted or I am forced to do content I might not enjoy, more importantly the reason many people absolutely hate raids is because it requires actual interaction with people, a barrier many dont want to have to deal yet now they are forced if they want power progression.

 

Of course I would prefer max tier solo gear to be the highest achievable gear, that is fair because EVERYONE gets access to it instead of the system you suggest where only a minority gets access to it.

 

Okay, so we change that like I suggested and you agreed was good. What changed? Your gear progresion is exactly the same. I just get no gear progression from doing operations, because I already got it from doing solo content and flashpoints. Does that make your experience better in any way?

 

Again, how does adding a few gear tiers on top for other people doing more challenging content "gut" your gear progression exactly? The only way in which the new gear system makes it worse is stat distribution and no more moddable gear from most content, which I already spoke out against. But that's a completely seperate thing from having one or two extra tiers on operations.

 

Again your argument quite literally boils down to raiders for some reason feeling entitled that they should be treated special at the expense of everyone else, that is simply wrong, I know that outdated mentality has come from years of devs following outdated mentalities like that, but that doesnt make it right.

 

No, it doesn't, you're not listening. It's not that I feel entitled or want to feel more special than others. What I want is a rewarding gearing system. As I do harder and harder content, I want the gear dropped to get better and better. That progression is completely lacking in a system like that on live now. Slowing down gearing does absolutely nothing to alleviate that.

[Ulrah]

I contend that it is impossible to defend 7.0 itemization without embarrassing yourself.

 

You wave your hands, wax nostalgic... the whole song and dance to convince us (and yourself) that you are not saying the following:

"I need/want an unfair gear advantage."

 

But in the end, that's all you are really saying.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Ulrah

[Sarova]

There is absolutely zero a solo player would encounter in this game requiring top tier gear. Most players can get by in PvE content in green gear just fine.

 

The only people who truly "need" top-tier gear are the PvP types, and then, only for the psychological kick in the head for thinking they're the uberist of the uber.

 

And if you sit there and say that you need top-end gear for nightmare ops, well guess what, at that point, you're not soloing.

I disagree with the PvP part of this. My main is a Lightning Sorc and until I got the 306 bonus set, fully augmented and amplified I was literally instantly & repeatedly murdered in unranked and had next to no survivability once long cooldowns were used. I gave up ranked completely. Same with some of the later story FPs (before they were nerfed to death; the Heta Kol fight is ridiculously easy now). Had I not had decent gear and therefore better survivability, I would never have completed them. It's unfortunate that some classes have far better survivability in trash drop gear and others have to get the highest gear just to be able to play without frustration. "Uberist" doesn't even factor into it.

 

Solo players have no need to "show off" our gear level. We aim to get the gear that will help our character to continue playing the higher end story content solo without constantly dying. And I find it's mainly my Sorcerers/Sages who need the better gear. Other classes have so much better survivability - most of my alts from other classes/specs are running around in random gear from crates as they don't need higher gear to survive. Based on my experiences on the PTS, I think the changes to abilities are going to make things worse for my Sorcs/Sages and only decent gear will help them.

 

I'm interested to see whether the balance adjustments they are going to make on gear in PvP actually work. I doubt it.

[AdjeYo]

I contend that it is impossible to defend 7.0 itemization without embarrassing yourself.

 

You wave your hands, wax nostalgic... the whole song and dance to convince us (and yourself) that you are not saying the following:

"I need/want an unfair gear advantage."

 

But in the end, that's all you are really saying.

 

Always easier to pretend people who disagree with you do so for selfish reasons, rather than their actual reasons. That way you can feel morally superior without actually considering anyone's viewpoint, very nice. Great contribution to the conversation too.

[ceryxp]

There have been two arguments in this thread, as well as in other discussions, that I find specious.

 

The group content will bring back the raiders. As has already been pointed out, when 7.0 releases it will add one flashpoint and the operation will be released later. So, that is the group content that will bring back the raiders? No, no, no, because there is all this other group content -- group content that did not bring back the raiders, but will now magically do so. Why? Because gear?

 

We have been told that there is no gearing progression in Ops and 7.0 will put that back. Why is there no gear progression in Ops in 6.x? Was it in Fps? Solo content? Where was that ceiling that cut off gear progression in Ops? I bet it was after you chose to spam HS, RR, and TC to take the shortest, easiest route to gearing. Trying to gear via pure solo play was one of the slowest in 6.x, but you would eventually get there. But taking the slow route to gearing is no fun, right? Which is why raiders chose to not gear via Ops and instead spammed HS, RR, and TC.

 

So, yay!, the best of the best gear will be locked behind R-4 Anomaly, which will not be available at launch, meaning the best gear available in 7.0 will be had from -- wait for it... -- running and rerunning the old Ops that people chose not to run in 6.x. Yay, no more HS, RR, and TC spamming. No, instead the Fps and Ops will rotate and now you will be forced to run all of them. All of those Fps and Ops you chose not to run in 6.x because the shortest, fastest, easiest route was via HS, RR, and TC spam.

 

What I am hearing from the raiders is not greed, or selfishness, or a demand to have better gear. What I am hearing from the raiders is that they have little interest in running that content unless they are forced to do so. You certainly did not choose to do it in 6.x*.

 

* Oh, I know, someone is going to come back and reply that their guild would shortman and speed run various NiM Ops every night of the week with seven fully kitted up raid teams, yada, yada, yada. The forums, Discords, chat, and guides tell the real story. You chose to not gear via Ops progression. You chose to gear by spamming the easiest, more repeatable content.

[AdjeYo]

There have been two arguments in this thread, as well as in other discussions, that I find specious.

 

The group content will bring back the raiders. As has already been pointed out, when 7.0 releases it will add one flashpoint and the operation will be released later. So, that is the group content that will bring back the raiders? No, no, no, because there is all this other group content -- group content that did not bring back the raiders, but will now magically do so. Why? Because gear?

 

We have been told that there is no gearing progression in Ops and 7.0 will put that back. Why is there no gear progression in Ops in 6.x? Was it in Fps? Solo content? Where was that ceiling that cut off gear progression in Ops? I bet it was after you chose to spam HS, RR, and TC to take the shortest, easiest route to gearing. Trying to gear via pure solo play was one of the slowest in 6.x, but you would eventually get there. But taking the slow route to gearing is no fun, right? Which is why raiders chose to not gear via Ops and instead spammed HS, RR, and TC.

 

So, yay!, the best of the best gear will be locked behind R-4 Anomaly, which will not be available at launch, meaning the best gear available in 7.0 will be had from -- wait for it... -- running and rerunning the old Ops that people chose not to run in 6.x. Yay, no more HS, RR, and TC spamming. No, instead the Fps and Ops will rotate and now you will be forced to run all of them. All of those Fps and Ops you chose not to run in 6.x because the shortest, fastest, easiest route was via HS, RR, and TC spam.

 

What I am hearing from the raiders is not greed, or selfishness, or a demand to have better gear. What I am hearing from the raiders is that they have little interest in running that content unless they are forced to do so. You certainly did not choose to do it in 6.x*.

 

* Oh, I know, someone is going to come back and reply that their guild would shortman and speed run various NiM Ops every night of the week with seven fully kitted up raid teams, yada, yada, yada. The forums, Discords, chat, and guides tell the real story. You chose to not gear via Ops progression. You chose to gear by spamming the easiest, more repeatable content.

 

It's not that I want to be forced to run operations. I've ran operations for years and did so in 6.x just as well. Point remains, adding small gear improvements attained through those operations, makes it more fun to run them. Because you get to continue that sense of character progression. That might bring back some people who stopped playing a while ago. It's a shame we won't get the new operation with launch, that would bring back even more people, but it will come eventually and bring in people.

[Sareeph]

What I am hearing from the raiders is not greed, or selfishness, or a demand to have better gear. What I am hearing from the raiders is that they have little interest in running that content unless they are forced to do so. You certainly did not choose to do it in 6.x*.

 

If you are going to make an argument, at least acknowledge every faucet of it. I know many solo players who solo HS and RR and do run TC because it's 5 mins of their time for great rewards. Raiders are not the only ones doing these things.

[xordevoreaux]

If you are going to make an argument, at least acknowledge every faucet of it. I know many solo players who solo HS and RR and do run TC because it's 5 mins of their time for great rewards. Raiders are not the only ones doing these things.

 

But I do see his point. These people claiming one thing how the future will be if X happens but are standing around doing Y doesn't add up. Everyone's taking the least line of resistance, as people do in any game, to save themselves time.

Edited November 27, 2021 by xordevoreaux

[juliushorst]

That might bring back some people who stopped playing a while ago. It's a shame we won't get the new operation with launch, that would bring back even more people, but it will come eventually and bring in people.

 

People who stopped playing around KotET will find out that over the last five years all that was added is: dull Iokath operation, Mountain Queen single boss instance, decent Duxun and the new one. How long do you think it'll keep them? Based on overwhelmingly negative reaction on the forum I would bet that if they keep this system as they describe it now the game will lose a lot more subscribers than it will gain.

[Sareeph]

But I do see his point. These people claiming one thing how the future will be if X happens but are standing around doing Y doesn't add up. Everyone's taking the least line of resistance, as people do in any game, to save themselves time.

 

Especially when the game has not kept up with any other of like type with content. People will find the easiest when their is a lack of new. If they came out with 2+ new BG's/Op's/FP's/Planets/Chapters every expac like most others do, we would not see them repeating Ad nauseam what they have been doing for 10 years already.