New expansion killing/limiting Solo players??

[Lyriel]

Oh I suppose I could spend an hour trundling through old threads where people who said they were quitting once rage quit again over content. In between releases, you hear nothing.

 

That does not support your claim that everyone who is not happy fits your profile. Also, content locusts would, pretty much by definition, not be here until after the new content was released. There's nothing new to devour yet.

 

The time to give feedback on a coming release is while it could still (theoretically) be changed. That is, again theoretically, part of the reason BioWare puts it on the PTS...

[AdjeYo]

You dont, let's create a hypothetical example, let's say max gear level is 100.

OPs players can reach that 100 gear ilvl, that is max progression.

Literally everyone else(the majority) is limited to up to 90 because they arent doing OPs therefore their progression is unjustly ended early. AND THEY KNOW IT ended early because raiders wanted special treatment which exacerbates the problem.

 

 

Once again your argument is "screw everyone else's progression, I want raiders to be special and have extra progression just because they are doing that type of content".

Do you realize how selfish and wrong that is?

 

 

Yet you still have to go through the same gear progression as everyone else, you are literally asking for SPECIAL GEAR PROGRESSION that is available in OPS only, you again are arguing that you want raiders to have special treatment while screwing everyone else's gear progression. I understand your argument, the thing is, you are hurting everyone else's progression because a minority aka raiders want to have special progression, that is wrong and selfish.

 

 

At some point in life, some realize that words are meaningless, and what only matters is actions and consequences.

Your actions have the result of screwing the progression of the majority for the benefit of a tiny minority, you cannot argue its not the case, you want raiders to have extra special stuff for your own sense of progression and you dont care if it screws everyone else's feeling of progression, you want to be treated as special because you do OPS.

 

So let's say the max gear level is 100. Everyone can get that from whatever they do. Good right? Great. Now let's say to entice people to do nim operation they add a 102 tier that drops fom that content. Does that affect your play so badly? Is it so problematic for you to know that someone else can get something you can't because they do content you won't (or can't) do? Adding extra tiers for certain content does not inherently take anything away from other content.

Edited November 28, 2021 by AdjeYo

[ralphieceaser]

So let's say the max gear level is 100. Everyone can get that from whatever they do. Good right? Great. Now let's say to entice people to do nim operation they add a 102 tier that drops fom that content.

You literally just changed the numbers, that doesnt change anything because the inequality still exists, you still want special treatment which you technically already have with gold augments, it is like you cant be satisfied and just want more at the expense of everyone else.

 

Does that affect your play so badly? Is it so problematic for you to know that someone else can get something you can't because they do content you won't (or can't) do?

And there we have it, the implication that the gear rewards are a trophy showing "you can" do something and the people with the inferior ilvl cannot. That is literally the core of the issue, you want others to have inferior gear, you want everyone else to have less so you can have more, you are literally asking for extra progression by taking away everyone else's progression.. If you cant see how wrong and selfish this is then honestly, i dont know what else to say.

 

And the trophy logic the people who should have the best gear are rated pvpers since pvp will always be harder than a predictable scripted pve boss no matter the difficulty.

 

Adding extra tiers for certain content does not inherently take anything away from other content

Expect gutting gear progression for the majority of the playerbase who are technically already behind in terms of gold augments, but that is not enough, you want people to have their progression even further gutted so YOU can have extras.

[Damask_Rose]

Adding extra tiers for certain content does not inherently take anything away from other content.

 

Adding in those extra tiers for everyone doesn't take away from any content either. NiM raiding should get it faster than other routes. If HM Hammer Station earns top gear faster than NiM ops, then there should be a balance pass. There is no need to gate gear. What does it hurt if a solo player eventually reaches that top tier if it took them 10x as long? Presumably people run NiM ops because they enjoy the challenge. If people have to be bribed with lots of exclusive goodies, then they really aren't running them because they enjoy them.

[MystyqeofXev]

Adding in those extra tiers for everyone doesn't take away from any content either. NiM raiding should get it faster than other routes. If HM Hammer Station earns top gear faster than NiM ops, then there should be a balance pass. There is no need to gate gear. What does it hurt if a solo player eventually reaches that top tier if it took them 10x as long? Presumably people run NiM ops because they enjoy the challenge. If people have to be bribed with lots of exclusive goodies, then they really aren't running them because they enjoy them.

 

RAIDER_'LOGIK': "For me to win, you must lose"

[Rion_Starkiller]

Maybe complain to the devs instead instead of harassing raiders with the same fallacious comment in every thread. Edited November 28, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[AdjeYo]

You literally just changed the numbers, that doesnt change anything because the inequality still exists, you still want special treatment which you technically already have with gold augments, it is like you cant be satisfied and just want more at the expense of everyone else.

 

Let me rephrase. I suggested two different systems:

System A) Everyone gets up to 100 rated gear. Nothing better exists.

 

System B) Exactly the same, except there is an extra 102 tier earned through nim raids.

 

Note that gameplaywise there is zero difference between these systems for a solo player. You deal, take and heal for exactly the same numbers for every enemy you'll encounter. The only difference is that someone else gets a slightly higher number, because they did a thing you didn't do.

 

And there we have it, the implication that the gear rewards are a trophy showing "you can" do something and the people with the inferior ilvl cannot. That is literally the core of the issue, you want others to have inferior gear, you want everyone else to have less so you can have more, you are literally asking for extra progression by taking away everyone else's progression.. If you cant see how wrong and selfish this is then honestly, i dont know what else to say.

 

Nope, you are reading things that aren't there. The reason I'm saying won't or can't is because some people can't do it. I don't mean that as a sneer in any way, or as a way to feel superior. Some people may not have the time to put into it, or they may have physical issues, or whatever issues, or they just plain don't want to. That's fine, and they are in no way lesser than someone who does have the ability (and want) to do these raids.

 

I've explained to you several times already, it is about having that sense of progression in all parts of the game. You make all tiers of gear droppable from any content, you're removing gear progression from nim operations. I couldn't give two ***** about e-peen stroking or bragging about superior gear numbers. Stop trying to put those beliefs on me because that's your preconception of what I must believe, and try to actually read what I'm saying.

 

And the trophy logic the people who should have the best gear are rated pvpers since pvp will always be harder than a predictable scripted pve boss no matter the difficulty.

 

As I already explained (repeatedly), I'm not going by the tropy logic. That said, pvp is a different beast all together, because the difficulty depends on who you're facing. There's quite a difference between fighting in your average warzone, or fighting against one of the best ranked teams on the server, or fighting mat farming teams, or new ranked teams.

 

Still, what I prefer for pvp (and what I hear mostly from pvp communities) is easily attainable pvp gear. Because the point is to get everyone on a level playing field.

 

Expect gutting gear progression for the majority of the playerbase who are technically already behind in terms of gold augments, but that is not enough, you want people to have their progression even further gutted so YOU can have extras.

 

Yeah you still haven't explained to me how the existence of an extra gear tier "guts" anyone's progression.

Edited November 28, 2021 by AdjeYo

[ruffolofi]

Truth is they've been killing this game for solo players ever since the focus sifted to group content a few years ago. We'll see how that goes for them.

[Severith]

Imagine a crazy person walking up to you, grabbing you by the shoulder, shaking you and screaming because you're not enjoying the SWTOR raid content. And they think they're doing you a favor.

 

7.0 in a nutshell.

[EllieAnne]

Truth is they've been killing this game for solo players ever since the focus sifted to group content a few years ago.

 

You mean all the phased content that makes you run it solo?

[Shwarzchild]

I don't think I get the angst from the solo crowd that's on the forums. In 7.0 will you be able to:

 

1) Run daily areas - yes

2) Run solo flash points - yes

3) Craft - yes

4) Create a new character and re-run one of the 8 class stories (or run one for the first time) -yes

5) Create a new character and run Kotfe or Kotet - yes

 

What can't a solo player do in 7.0 that they can do right now?

 

Is it conquest? I don't really understand that either.

 

Does solo play REALLY revolve around the gear treadmill?

 

I am putting this here since I really don't get it, and I'm sure there's someone who can tell me here.

 

This sounds like a raider saying they can't do the story mode version of Terror From Beyond because they can't get 306 BiS gear...which is not true at all. Is this the thing we are dealing with here? Not having unfettered access to all tiers of gear does not kill or limit the solo experience. No, it does not hurt anyone if a solo player has access to BiS gear, but that's not the question in this thread or posed by many. The solo experience simply does not change it just gets a little bit more content added and 5 more levels same as any expansion.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Shwarzchild

[Pricia]

I don't think I get the angst from the solo crowd that's on the forums. In 7.0 will you be able to:

 

1) Run daily areas - yes

2) Run solo flash points - yes

3) Craft - yes

4) Create a new character and re-run one of the 8 class stories (or run one for the first time) -yes

5) Create a new character and run Kotfe or Kotet - yes

 

What can't a solo player do in 7.0 that they can do right now?

 

Is it conquest? I don't really understand that either.

 

Does solo play REALLY revolve around the gear treadmill?

 

I am putting this here since I really don't get it, and I'm sure there's someone who can tell me here.

 

The solo experience simply does not change it just gets a little bit more content added and 5 more levels same as any expansion.

 

Currently, I can do whatever I want in the game, at my own pace, and get at least some reward for it. With 7.0, I won't be able to.

 

No more spreading daily heroics in 2/3 days, so I will be forced to do the long, annoying ones to finish the daily (and with no more renown, all we'll get from heroics are credits unless we do the daily)

 

No more spreading weeklies in 2 weeks either, and we'll be forced to do the ones the devs pick for that week to get our gear upgrades. Currently, we can do whatever we want and still get some rewards (again, renown, so even if I don't get a loot box for it, I still get gear I can disintegrate for fragments even if I don't need it)

 

If I feel like grouping, I won't get an upgrade for my playstyle, but something I won't use, same for raiding

 

Craft - with no update, surely you're joking

 

Solo flashpoints - jury is out depending on what the rewards are

 

CQ goal is doubled

 

Also, with the weekly cap on gear upgrade fragments on the last PTS version, it means that there might be no point playing after a while - especially if there's only one weekly that gives good rewards every week. Again, we'll have to see what the limits/CQ rewards are when it goes live and to see if playing my alts is even worth it (I have a lot already, not really interested in making more).

 

Also, what everyone seems to be missing, is that grinding gear gives us a reason to play. Otherwise, when we're done with the stories/rep and we've played all the alts we want to play... Why keep playing at all?

[Schlumpfine]

I don't think I get the angst from the solo crowd that's on the forums. In 7.0 will you be able to:

 

1) Run daily areas - yes

2) Run solo flash points - yes

3) Craft - yes

4) Create a new character and re-run one of the 8 class stories (or run one for the first time) -yes

5) Create a new character and run Kotfe or Kotet - yes

 

What can't a solo player do in 7.0 that they can do right now?

 

Is it conquest? I don't really understand that either.

 

Does solo play REALLY revolve around the gear treadmill?

 

I am putting this here since I really don't get it, and I'm sure there's someone who can tell me here.

 

This sounds like a raider saying they can't do the story mode version of Terror From Beyond because they can't get 306 BiS gear...which is not true at all. Is this the thing we are dealing with here? Not having unfettered access to all tiers of gear does not kill or limit the solo experience. No, it does not hurt anyone if a solo player has access to BiS gear, but that's not the question in this thread or posed by many. The solo experience simply does not change it just gets a little bit more content added and 5 more levels same as any expansion.

 

Let it explain to you. There will be only one New Daily/Weekly in 7.0 and a new FP for Solo and Casual Players. Even with my 20 alts it will be done in between a week. After that with the 7.0 System there is nothing else to do because the Gear for FPs and Conquest are just trash and not worth runnning old contend to get them.

In 6.0 i was motivated to stay Subbed and run old content to get the 306 Gear for all my alts.

[Rion_Starkiller]

I don't think I get the angst from the solo crowd that's on the forums. In 7.0 will you be able to:

 

1) Run daily areas - yes

2) Run solo flash points - yes

3) Craft - yes

4) Create a new character and re-run one of the 8 class stories (or run one for the first time) -yes

5) Create a new character and run Kotfe or Kotet - yes

 

What can't a solo player do in 7.0 that they can do right now?

 

Is it conquest? I don't really understand that either.

 

Does solo play REALLY revolve around the gear treadmill?

 

I am putting this here since I really don't get it, and I'm sure there's someone who can tell me here.

 

This sounds like a raider saying they can't do the story mode version of Terror From Beyond because they can't get 306 BiS gear...which is not true at all. Is this the thing we are dealing with here? Not having unfettered access to all tiers of gear does not kill or limit the solo experience. No, it does not hurt anyone if a solo player has access to BiS gear, but that's not the question in this thread or posed by many. The solo experience simply does not change it just gets a little bit more content added and 5 more levels same as any expansion.

 

6) Galactic Seasons #2 - yes

7) buy your 2nd fleet SH from GS and decorate it - yes

8) RP your dark side pub toon with sith/imp powers/abilities (and vice versa) - yes

Edited November 28, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[DWho]

I don't think I get the angst from the solo crowd that's on the forums. In 7.0 will you be able to:

 

1) Run daily areas - yes

2) Run solo flash points - yes

3) Craft - yes

4) Create a new character and re-run one of the 8 class stories (or run one for the first time) -yes

5) Create a new character and run Kotfe or Kotet - yes

 

What can't a solo player do in 7.0 that they can do right now?

 

Is it conquest? I don't really understand that either.

 

Does solo play REALLY revolve around the gear treadmill?

 

I am putting this here since I really don't get it, and I'm sure there's someone who can tell me here.

 

This sounds like a raider saying they can't do the story mode version of Terror From Beyond because they can't get 306 BiS gear...which is not true at all. Is this the thing we are dealing with here? Not having unfettered access to all tiers of gear does not kill or limit the solo experience. No, it does not hurt anyone if a solo player has access to BiS gear, but that's not the question in this thread or posed by many. The solo experience simply does not change it just gets a little bit more content added and 5 more levels same as any expansion.

 

I think the core issue is that we do not know at all what solo play is going to look like outside a few teasers. None of it was on PTS other than the changes to character abilities which were pretty much across the board despised by the people who playtested them as much weaker and much slower thus degrading the solo play experience (less fun to play overall).

 

The only part of Conquest we saw was the increased goal (nothing on how they were planning to limit CXP gain as they stated they were going to do). Nothing from crafting other than a few new inferior recipies. Gearing was a strange hybrid of old and new that was not in line with their stated goals (you could still obtain and use modable gear below max level even though they stated it was going away except for "raids"). What was on the PTS was not an accurate representation of Bioware's stated goals (most likely because it is going to prove as unpopular or more so that the changes to the character classes)

 

The gear grind is not about solo play or group play it is about player retention. When there is nothing else to "strive" for players leave. With the primarily "solo play" crowd being the vast majority of the game's population (a fact that is unlikely to change ever) it seems strange to reduce the potential for player retention in that area.

 

It seems odd that raiders (and I am using this term for those raiders whose only interest in raiding is to gain better gear than anyone else as opposed to the vast majority of raiders that play for the social aspect and the accomplishment of completing OPs in different ways) have complained that they don't get enough rewards for their play but are perfectly fine with reducing the rewards for other playstyles (a bit hypocritical) which reminds me a lot of a certain GSF campaign that was supposedly about improving rewards for GSF but focused almost exclusively on tearing down the rewards for heroics.

 

Rewards for "solo play" will be significantly reduced under 7.0 whether it be much slower gearing, credits, xp, or even enjoyability of play.

[Shwarzchild]

I think the core issue is that we do not know at all what solo play is going to look like outside a few teasers. None of it was on PTS other than the changes to character abilities which were pretty much across the board despised by the people who playtested them as much weaker and much slower thus degrading the solo play experience (less fun to play overall).

 

The only part of Conquest we saw was the increased goal (nothing on how they were planning to limit CXP gain as they stated they were going to do). Nothing from crafting other than a few new inferior recipies. Gearing was a strange hybrid of old and new that was not in line with their stated goals (you could still obtain and use modable gear below max level even though they stated it was going away except for "raids"). What was on the PTS was not an accurate representation of Bioware's stated goals (most likely because it is going to prove as unpopular or more so that the changes to the character classes)

 

The gear grind is not about solo play or group play it is about player retention. When there is nothing else to "strive" for players leave. With the primarily "solo play" crowd being the vast majority of the game's population (a fact that is unlikely to change ever) it seems strange to reduce the potential for player retention in that area.

 

It seems odd that raiders (and I am using this term for those raiders whose only interest in raiding is to gain better gear than anyone else as opposed to the vast majority of raiders that play for the social aspect and the accomplishment of completing OPs in different ways) have complained that they don't get enough rewards for their play but are perfectly fine with reducing the rewards for other playstyles (a bit hypocritical) which reminds me a lot of a certain GSF campaign that was supposedly about improving rewards for GSF but focused almost exclusively on tearing down the rewards for heroics.

 

Rewards for "solo play" will be significantly reduced under 7.0 whether it be much slower gearing, credits, xp, or even enjoyability of play.

 

This seems to be the most thought out post in this thread. Thank you.

[Ulrah]

What can't a solo player do in 7.0 that they can do right now?

I don't mean to poke at you too much here - you are certainly not the first to ask this, and judging by your tone I don't believe you intended offense... But this is an insulting question.

 

Why should the group that is simply asking for it to be fair (like it is now, more or less) be required to justify such, rather than the group that is receiving an unfair advantage in 7.0? It's ok that raiders get an unfair advantage as long as solo players can "do stuff"?

 

I hesitate to use specific RL analogies, but history is full of groups demanding the same rights as another. Your question would be like asking one of these groups "Why do you need the rights this other group has?"

 

Raiders don't NEED this unfair gear advantage any more than solo players NEED BiS. We should stop conflating this with other issues (a sense of progression, rate of gearing, some paths for CQ/gearing too easy or too fast, etc., etc.) - they are separate. All of that can be addressed without giving Ops players an unfair gear advantage.

 

The only relevant justification for raiders getting an unfair gear advantage is to let them feel superior.

[ralphieceaser]

What can't a solo player do in 7.0 that they can do right now?.

Grind content they enjoy and get to max gear progression because devs followed the outdated mentality that raiders are speciul and should get to have more progression than everyone else even though they are a tiny minority.

 

 

literally screwing up everyone else's progression for a tiny minority, honestly, with WoW slowly dying and more story based mmorpgs taking the lead, it should have been a sign that this design philosophy is dead.

 

I can agree that we got geared too fast, but that is easily solved by reducing loot rewards from all content, not by gating the highest ilvl rewards behind one specific content, and b4 someone implies it is because it is hard, then ranked pvp should have the highest ilvl gear because it will always be harder than any scripted predictable pve boss.

[akdonkey]

Ops to me are NOT fun. You got to be meticulous in your attacks and taunts of spawns. You can not go into them and simply have fun pound your attacks and whatever and have a good time. Everyone must know their part. I've done a few Ops practiced with groups in the end I Never once got a good drop from the handful of Op's I ran.

 

They are not fun.

 

There are only a handful of people who successfully run them regularly. You won't get in their groups either.

 

There won't be an influx of new players for this outdated Gearing system. I bet more leave because of it.

 

I will see how it goes for my casual playstyle. I don't do dailies either. I have many alts I enjoy the story I'm not going to grind in those crappy Op's either.

[Shwarzchild]

I don't mean to poke at you too much here - you are certainly not the first to ask this, and judging by your tone I don't believe you intended offense... But this is an insulting question.

 

Why should the group that is simply asking for it to be fair (like it is now, more or less) be required to justify such, rather than the group that is receiving an unfair advantage in 7.0? It's ok that raiders get an unfair advantage as long as solo players can "do stuff"?

 

I hesitate to use specific RL analogies, but history is full of groups demanding the same rights as another. Your question would be like asking one of these groups "Why do you need the rights this other group has?"

 

Raiders don't NEED this unfair gear advantage any more than solo players NEED BiS. We should stop conflating this with other issues (a sense of progression, rate of gearing, some paths for CQ/gearing too easy or too fast, etc., etc.) - they are separate. All of that can be addressed without giving Ops players an unfair gear advantage.

 

The only relevant justification for raiders getting an unfair gear advantage is to let them feel superior.

 

I would disagree that the only relevant justification is for raiders to feel super awesome compared to the common man or woman. That's taking things a bit too far in my book.

 

The question is really, to me, will the gearing system stop a solo player from playing the content they want to play. the answer seems to very well be "no" from a matter of fact honest examination. A lot of stuff that's being thrown around is nonsense. Just like the question i ask "will non moddable gear affect my performancein the raid content I want to raid " I bet that answer is technically no too even if I don't really LIKE non moddable gear. Just seems like people's motivations are super out of whack. I have a feeling this gearing system won't stop anyone from enjoying their desired content of choice.

Edited November 28, 2021 by Shwarzchild

[MystyqeofXev]

. I have a feeling this gearing system won't stop anyone from enjoying their desired content of choice.

 

NICHE_CROWD: "LF 1 DPS. Must have GS 336 and be fully modded."

 

/r "Umm I have 326, but can't get MODs yet"

 

NICHE_CROWD: "Send me a tell in an hour. We sell carries"

[Shwarzchild]

NICHE_CROWD: "LF 1 DPS. Must have GS 336 and be fully modded."

 

/r "Umm I have 326, but can't get MODs yet"

 

NICHE_CROWD: "Send me a tell in an hour. We sell carries"

 

This has nothing to do with the solo player experience

[ralphieceaser]

I would disagree that the only relevant justification is for raiders to feel super awesome compared to the common man or woman

That doesnt change the fact that they are screwing the majority's gear progression for the sake of a tiny minority.

Your gear progression is literally gutted and stopped at 326 when there's literally 8 more raitings to go from there but oh no, we gotta make raiders feel special at the expense of the majority, again outdated design philosophy.

 

i ask "will non moddable gear affect my performance to raid the content I want to raid " I bet that answer is technically no

Uhm the answer is yes, for the very simply and basic reason that non moddable gear is inferior to moddable gear in terms of gear rating. Max non-moddable gear from non OP content is 326, maximum moddable gear is 334, so in terms of performance, yes moddable gear will be superior in 7.0

Now if you asked "do you need moddable gear to clear X content" then answer would be no, BUUUUUUT anyone who has dealt with high end communities before knows very well metaslaves and people with ridiculous standards are a thing so dont be surprised if said people DEMAND for you to have moddable gear first.

Edited November 28, 2021 by ralphieceaser

[TrixxieTriss]

I would disagree that the only relevant justification is for raiders to feel super awesome compared to the common man or woman. That's taking things a bit too far in my book.

 

The question is really, to me, will the gearing system stop a solo player from playing the content they want to play. the answer seems to very well be "no" from a matter of fact honest examination. A lot of stuff that's being thrown around is nonsense. Just like the question i ask "will non moddable gear affect my performance to raid the content I want to raid " I bet that answer is technically no too even if I don't really LIKE non moddable gear. Just seems like people's motivations are super out of whack. I have a feeling this gearing system won't stop anyone from enjoying their desired content of choice.

 

It’s not just the gearing system alone that is making people unsub. Alone its probably not enough of a negative affect to make that happen en-mass.

The issue is ALL of the other changes that go along with it that will limit players enjoyment, wether they are solo or group players.

ie, multiple Conquest changes, Ability pruning, resetting dailies and weeklies (which will be linked to gearing), removal of renowned system, etc…. and that’s before we get to the inevitable bugs all these new changes will create.

Alone, each one of these is cringe worthy development, but compounded together and then add an unpopular gearing system and you will see players decide its not worth subscribing or possibly even playing.

[MystyqeofXev]

This has nothing to do with the solo player experience

 

Wanna bet?

 

When the highest level gear is siloed to raids, and you can't MOD anything BUT said gear, you better believe that impacts the "solo player experience".