So I came back because of the 7.0 changes. I get what BioWare is doing.

[ralphieceaser]

it's interesting to see you say this because the major criticism of SWTOR that I remember (from day one) was that it was fine but just a WoW clone. they thought BW might do something to change the paradigm. they did not.

 

Gameplay wise yes but Swtor was one of the first fully voiced mmorpgs and still voiced almost everything to this day, the game focuses a lot more on story instead of high end raiding and competitive e-sport bs as well unlike WoW.

 

I actually like the gameplay of a typical mmorpg, tab target combat is great for that, mmorpgs are meant to be fun and things you casually do to enjoy yourself, not an esport

[OlBuzzard]

I wonder if these changes have anything to do with the WoW-exodus. Most of these players are going to FFXIV because there they actually have meaningful group content. It can't have gone past the attention of EA/BW that SWTOR has had a sub-par influx from WoW players. I mean there are still some but I bet these changes also serve to entice more ex-WoW players to come here.

 

Hmmm

 

Ya know !! Here we are again. I missed this a few days ago ! ( "sorry about that chief!") I must be getting old(er) !!

And (again) there may be something to this. And coupled with the idea of the console styled "adjustments" to the game.

 

Hmmmm ???

 

Something still doesn't add up !!!

The thing about all of this is that some folks are still trying to adhere to an older definition of an MMORPG game. Things have changed a bit in the last 10 years. Quite a bit ... actually.

 

There are yet others that would REALLY like to make this game one of "those" other games.

 

IMO this thread is devolved into more of a "us" (strict interpretationists of MMO's and how they are intended to be played) VS "them" (those OTHER players) styled debates. That sort of nonsense is useless and counterproductive.

 

I still refuse to accept that a successful game must either be mindlessly simple OR GROUP participation required (or you get no goodies for playing) .

 

Who started what ... OR who did what to whom and when ... OR (even better yet) ...

"HE GOT MORE than I did !!!" That sounds like my two sons fussing when they were children.

 

UGH !!

 

I still refuse to believe that it's not possible for THIS game to incorporate enough content and game design to provide fun for

PvP

PvE

Solo

Groups

Guilds ( both large and small )

Companions that are fun ( and those that are just mechanical). Gear that works well for whatever class / or role we choose.

FUN ?? ( OK this one might be a tad over the top)

 

But I guess that no one's up to that challenge these days!

 

You have to admit ... it would be interesting to find someone who has the drive, motivation, COURAGE to attempt that sort of thing. Now add to that a really cool genre that's popular !

 

Yeah !! That THIRD OPTION I've been talking about !!

 

If you think the old man's off his rocker now ??? Just stick around a few more months and we'll see !

Edited November 24, 2021 by OlBuzzard

[divinecynic]

it's interesting to see you say this because the major criticism of SWTOR that I remember (from day one) was that it was fine but just a WoW clone. they thought BW might do something to change the paradigm. they did not.

 

Are you actually doubting there is and always has been more solo content in the game than group?

 

When the complaint was and is leveled that Swtor is a Wow-clone it's about mechanics. Tab targeting and some of the classes being similar. It's not a complaint that Swtor has as much group content as Wow. Swtor didn't even launch with one raid. The first mass exodus after launch was over a lack of group content. Lack of endgame was always the issue.

 

Swtor never really followed the WoW formula. Story was the focus and the leveling experience is usually touted as the best part of the game. Chapter 1-3 has the best story, etc. In Wow, it's the opposite, leveling is a grind and all the really good stuff is in endgame.

 

Another big difference between Swtor is player choice. Sure some of the choice is an illusion really. However it does effect a character' story as you go on through the game. That doesn't follow the MMO formula.

 

My point in all of this is that you often hear that Swtor is a MMORPG and therefore should focus on group play and yet it doesn't. It never really has. If you look where they put the content, the money spent, etc. the lion share goes to solo content.

 

7.0 is launching without a raid. Even the fp coming is soloable. 7.0 is sure as shooting launch with solo content though. Solo content is Swtor's bread and butter.

[TrixxieTriss]

Nope

 

I said the budget was increased for 2022. Apologies if I wasn't clear.

 

And there is no way anyone that isn't a Bioware employee can provide that...I'm looking at outliers and a lot of things point to that.

 

So once again. Where are you getting this info from. You make these statements out of thin air but won’t back them up with any detail of where the info comes from or any links showing us. Surely you can understand why I’m sceptical of random stuff posted on the internet without any lick of proof. You have not even offered any logical reasoning to back up you statement.

[TrixxieTriss]

I think the funding itself is for 2022, not specifically this expansion. Keith has already admitted to difficulties from a WFH office due to COVID. Roughly speaking, a company will come up with the year's plan/goal, then price it out, then get funding approved from execs/finance, then execute within budget.

 

So yes, I too think 7.0 expansion itself will be small-ish in playable content, yet I also choose to believe the devs when they say they have substantial updates coming in throughout the year for the 10th anniversary. From what I can tell, 7.0 itself lays the foundation with complete changes in multiple systems (char creation, ability trees, UI changes, gearing,etc) for the supposed increase in funding for 2022.

.

 

Sorry to knit pick, but where did BioWare say they were making “substantial” updates through the year?

Yes they said there would be updates through out the year, but that is no different to any other year post an expansion.

 

And if the stuff they would normally put in the expansion isn’t there at launch because they decide to spread out exactly the same amount of content over 12 months, how can that be called substantial.

 

“If” and I say if, they have more content releases planned for next year than normal, then all they’ve really done is take stuff from the expansion to spread it out next year. In the end it won’t end up being more than normal if you consider how lite the expansion is at release.

 

Once again it’s BioWare doing the same old sleight of hand tricks as usual to make you look over here, while they take something from you over there.

[TrixxieTriss]

I mean.... you want proof by looking at the job postings NOW, when most of the hiring was done/started after Anthem went belly up?

 

That..doesn't...make...sense....

 

It does if those people left the company or move to another EA division and they were working on both projects at once.

[ZionHalcyon]

It does if those people left the company or move to another EA division and they were working on both projects at once.

 

No. You are missing my point.

 

It doesn't make sense because you are looking at the job postings now for positions that were filled over the past two years. Those positions would no longer be open because they've already been filled.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that there were a bunch of positions open four different stretches of time and that there were quite a bit of them to ramp up for the production of legacy of the sith, starting when Keith was brought on board.

[OlBuzzard]

Trix and ZionHalcyon IMO you're both off on a tangent.

 

When it gets right down to it the size of the company has little to do with the decision making process of WHERE to take the game or the "quality" of the product when released.

 

I did not shift the debate to this subject .. someone else did.

 

Has BWA hired a number of people .. possibly. The again it's entirely possible that a large number of people quit !! This has been a problem all over the US in recent months ( partly due to COVID ). IMO this is still none of our business. That is a matter for BWA to manage (which is as it should be).

[EDIT]: the number of employees only facilitate the actual plan ... AND that is assuming that ALL that are hired are not only experienced ... BUT can jump right into SWTOR and know exactly what to do in a matter of hours.

 

 

ON topic for this thread:

 

** Attempting to redefine the direction of SWTOR is not only a BAD idea but will be counterproductive if released as reviewed by those who provided feedback on the PTS. THAT is relevant !!

 

** IMO its an even WORSE idea to hold on to ideas of what a MMORPG game is or is NOT when these sorts of games first came about 12+ years ago ( it might have been closer to 15 ... frankly exact time line is not something I can't say for a certainty).

 

I will continue to maintain the idea that there was (and still are) so many positive things that needed to be focused for the 10th anniversary it's just mind boggling that we are even having these sorts of discussions.

 

Asking why is a stupid move too ... You KNOW what sort of answers you'll get on a forum board !! :eek:

 

I'd rather us be having a block party tied in with Life Day for the 10th anniversary.

[/ finishes up rolling another snow ball ... adds it to the stock pile and looks sheepishly at a couple of the team members ]

 

Care to play ???

Edited November 24, 2021 by OlBuzzard

[MystyqeofXev]

Trix and ZionHalcyon IMO you're both off on a tangent.

 

When it gets right down to it the size of the company has little to do with the decision making process of WHERE to take the game or the "quality" of the product when released. (1)

 

I did not shift the debate to this subject .. someone else did.

 

Has BWA hired a number of people .. possibly. The again it's entirely possible that a large number of people quit !! This has been a problem all over the US in recent months ( partly due to COVID ). IMO this is still none of our business. (2) That is a matter for BWA to manage (which is as it should be).

[EDIT]: the number of employees only facilitate the actual plan ... AND that is assuming that ALL that are hired are not only experienced ... BUT can jump right into SWTOR and know exactly what to do in a matter of hours. (3)

 

 

ON topic for this thread:

 

** Attempting to redefine the direction of SWTOR is not only a BAD idea but will be counterproductive if released as reviewed by those who provided feedback on the PTS. THAT is relevant !! (4)

 

** IMO its an even WORSE idea to hold on to ideas of what a MMORPG game is or is NOT when these sorts of games first came about 12+ years ago ( it might have been closer to 15 ... frankly exact time line is not something I can't say for a certainty). (5)

 

I will continue to maintain the idea that there was (and still are) so many positive things that needed to be focused for the 10th anniversary it's just mind boggling that we are even having these sorts of discussions. (6)

 

Asking why is a stupid move too ... You KNOW what sort of answers you'll get on a forum board !! :eek:

 

I'd rather us be having a block party tied in with Life Day for the 10th anniversary.

[/ finishes up rolling another snow ball ... adds it to the stock pile and looks sheepishly at a couple of the team members ]

 

Care to play ???

 

(1) Partially true. A "mom-n-pop" store cannot provide the same level of service as a Haliburton, no matter how much people want to believe otherwise.

 

(2) Are you a shareholder? A customer? Then yes, it most certainly is your business. If a former RTS / MMO company wants to suddenly switch to mobile games, I'm most definitely interested in the future of their development plans.

 

(3) IIRC Blizzard used to state it took three to six months for somebody to really get "stuck-in".

 

(4) I've said it before, and I'll say it again - they're trying to be something they're not, and never were.

 

(5) Outdated paradigms. Said paradigms were wrong then, and they're wrong now. But hey EA, cater to that {NICHE CROWD} and see what happens. You have SOME "relationship" equity with the players, not sure you have as much as you think.

 

(6) 100% agree. Their internal processes are 'off'. I get they wanted to time release for Christmas (shopping) season, but instead of articles and interviews everywhere about all the "goodies" (Free or otherwise), associated with the 10th anniversary, we get this.

[Rion_Starkiller]

Sorry to knit pick, but where did BioWare say they were making “substantial” updates through the year?

Yes they said there would be updates through out the year, but that is no different to any other year post an expansion.

 

"Substantial updates" are my words, not BW's. I'm not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse to maintain your cynicism or what, but Keith has been hyping the 10th anniversary for a while now.

 

I’ll add my Happy Holidays to everyone, too. I’m humbled by all the great comments here, on Steam, in our recent Cantina Livestream, and truly by all the amazing folks who both play and develop our game. It’s hard to believe so much time has passed, but I watch in awe as my grandkids play this game now, too. It’s so fun!

 

I have a ton of memories and this year is no different. Almost a full decade and so much has changed, but a lot hasn’t (no, I’m not talking about the bug you reported 5 years ago). We have some major plans for our 10th year. I almost can’t wait to start telling you what’s up, when you’ll get involved, along with some really cool underlying changes I think y’all will appreciate.

 

Stay healthy. Be Safe. Enjoy the 2020 Holiday Season and we’ll see you throughout 2021.

 

--Keith---

 

Without scouring the internet and forums for every stream or post ever made, I believe there was an even earlier hint about the 10-year, but I can't remember the details.

 

And if the stuff they would normally put in the expansion isn’t there at launch because they decide to spread out exactly the same amount of content over 12 months, how can that be called substantial.

 

“If” and I say if, they have more content releases planned for next year than normal, then all they’ve really done is take stuff from the expansion to spread it out next year. In the end it won’t end up being more than normal if you consider how lite the expansion is at release.

 

Once again it’s BioWare doing the same old sleight of hand tricks as usual to make you look over here, while they take something from you over there.

 

One thing that I'm still curious about, and hasn't been talked about: PVP Revamp (https://ibb.co/nC6ScTP) mentioned on the LotS announcement stream in July (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1073610644). I'm curious if we will be getting any more details before 12/14.

 

Lastly, if the devs can't make "substantial updates" in 2022 for the 10-year, I can't imagine we will ever get anything substantive, unless subscribers magically increase 50%.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[OlBuzzard]

(1) Partially true. A "mom-n-pop" store cannot provide the same level of service as a Haliburton, no matter how much people want to believe otherwise.

 

(2) Are you a shareholder? A customer? Then yes, it most certainly is your business. If a former RTS / MMO company wants to suddenly switch to mobile games, I'm most definitely interested in the future of their development plans.

 

(3) IIRC Blizzard used to state it took three to six months for somebody to really get "stuck-in".

 

(4) I've said it before, and I'll say it again - they're trying to be something they're not, and never were.

 

(5) Outdated paradigms. Said paradigms were wrong then, and they're wrong now. But hey EA, cater to that {NICHE CROWD} and see what happens. You have SOME "relationship" equity with the players, not sure you have as much as you think.

 

(6) 100% agree. Their internal processes are 'off'. I get they wanted to time release for Christmas (shopping) season, but instead of articles and interviews everywhere about all the "goodies" (Free or otherwise), associated with the 10th anniversary, we get this.

 

NOTE: this is not a rant ... just more stuff to consider !!

 

1) .. I'm a retired purchasing director from a company of less than 50 employees .... WE DID compete with companies 4 - 5 times our size!! The company in question was about as "mom and pop" as it gets. WE WERE (the competition). So .. VERY respectfully .. it CAN be done. It takes commitment and a LOT of old-fashioned work. For me it was an aver of 55 - 60 hour a week over a period of 15 years !! ( I retired after 25 years with the company). I KNOW firsthand the actual answer to this point.

 

2). Sorry ... only as a customer. Even then the number or size of the company (to me at least ) is totally irrelevant. What is VERY relevant to me as a consumer (which is really the only part that is MY business) is how the game is played .. the quality of the game itself : is it filled with BUGS ( that sort of thing). In short does it live up to expectation ?

 

The rest is up to the shareholders and the board of directors and those who are far enough up the food chain to be "responsible" for company profit (sometimes mistaken for Ferengi)

 

3). I think we're both on the same page here !!

4). I will never stand in judgement of the team like that. IMO there is still a big piece of this puzzle that we're not seeing. Posting our hopes and ambitions for the future of the game is one thing... but riding their case or offering an attack on the company IMO is not good for business ( I forget the rule acquisition number ... but it's there somewhere).

 

I WILL say this.. the days of "swing" or catering to a specific group of players is pretty much numbered. More people are looking for good games to play. The COVID thing that we're still dealing with changed a few parameters and IMO the "field of play" could very well still be evolving! That upsets some folk !! BUT the simple undeniable fact is that things are changing ... AND they will continue to do so.

 

Soooo why not GROW the game and EXPAND the outreach as opposed to eliminating parts of the game that made it successful in the first place ???

 

[/scratches head]. OK ... I'm NOT on the board of directors. AND NO I don't possess a fantastic working knowledge of the technobabble that I need to get the right persons attention. BUT I can see firsthand that there is a "Bad MOON Arising!"

5). Agreed. Staying focused on one group never helps the rest. IMO ... I would have personally preferred to SWTOR to grow and EXPAND a LONG time ago in several areas. Skills and abilities aren't the only thing being pruned !! (NOT GOOD) !!

 

6). The celebration doesn't have to be limited to give aways ... Heck .. go crazy a bit !! When I say CELEBRATE .. I mean CUT LOOSE !! Have a BLAST with other interactive stuff.

 

In short make this FUN !! Heck .. it's taken 10 years to get here !!

 

GO FOR IT !!

 

Good grief how hard can it be to have fun these days ???

Edited November 24, 2021 by OlBuzzard

[TrixxieTriss]

"Substantial updates" are my words, not BW's. I'm not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse to maintain your cynicism or what, but Keith has been hyping the 10th anniversary for a while now.[/Quote]

 

Thats my point right there. It’s Kieth trying to hype up the talk like he has always done with an expansion since he took over. Which isn’t a bad thing because you want the producer and devs to do that. But you and I have been here long enough that we should take that with a massive grain of salt because their hype never = reality.

 

One thing that I'm still curious about, and hasn't been talked about: PVP Revamp (https://ibb.co/nC6ScTP) mentioned on the LotS announcement stream in July (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1073610644). I'm curious if we will be getting any more details before 12/14.

 

Lastly, if the devs can't make "substantial updates" in 2022 for the 10-year, I can't imagine we will ever get anything substantive, unless subscribers magically increase 50%.

 

The pvp update is supposed to come in 7.2. And the operation is supposed to come in 7.1. And that’s all we know about for next year. But in the past those 2 things would have been in the expansion at release instead taking them out and trying to say it’s extra stuff for the anniversary year.

 

That’s why I’m cynical about the hype and knit picking what people are saying. The reality is BioWare didn’t have the time or resources to add those into the expansion like they normally would. Some of it is probably logistical because of covid and some is because they’ve spent so much time reinventing the wheel. So if they really got a significant boost in funding like some others have suggested, where has it gone? It’s certainly not been translated into the playable content we would usually receive in an expansion at launch.

 

That’s my whole point. I don’t believe they’ve gotten extra funding and it’s why I asked for some proof because the evidence suggests they didn’t.

[Rion_Starkiller]

The "reinventing the wheel" part is a major systems update on multiple fronts, including graphics, UI, bolster recode, skill tree/combat styles, etc. These things seem like they would take a good chunk of resources to build out. Unfortunately, it does seem like it comes at the expense of playable content.

 

One of the more interesting rumors that I've heard is that some of this re-coding and new rendering might help with desync. Fingers crossed.

 

Anyway, this game does need to be modernized, imo. The last big "under the hood" overhaul that I remember was 4.0.

 

The pvp update is supposed to come in 7.2.

 

Without digging through the livestream again, I thought they said they would give us more info about the pvp update before 7.0 launches. Maybe I was wrong.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller

[Ulrah]

What are you all talking about?

 

When someone can't defend an argument well, they often attempt to confuse by shifting the focus to irrelevant topics and refuse to address the real issue. And thus we find this thread arguing (guessing) about staffing levels and their implications...

 

7.0 itemization changes slight solo players in the hope of attracting a certain kind of raider - the kind that doesn't care much at all about content, just feeling superior. A lot of you are being way too nice here. Those defending 7.0 itemization are admitting they want/need/deserve an unfair advantage (particularly over mostly-solo players). Everything else is the "why", not the "what".

 

One must be careful when making argument - your words can define you. When you make the argument that the game should give you an unfair gear advantage in order to convince you to grace the rest of us with your presence, you embarrass yourself and insult us.

[Jett-Rinn]

What are you all talking about?

 

When someone can't defend an argument well, they often attempt to confuse by shifting the focus to irrelevant topics and refuse to address the real issue. And thus we find this thread arguing (guessing) about staffing levels and their implications...

 

7.0 itemization changes slight solo players in the hope of attracting a certain kind of raider - the kind that doesn't care much at all about content, just feeling superior. A lot of you are being way too nice here. Those defending 7.0 itemization are admitting they want/need/deserve an unfair advantage (particularly over mostly-solo players). Everything else is the "why", not the "what".

 

One must be careful when making argument - your words can define you. When you make the argument that the game should give you an unfair gear advantage in order to convince you to grace the rest of us with your presence, you embarrass yourself and insult us.

 

 

No you're right...and Bioware has been down this road. Anyone remember the disastrous player summit right after the game launched? The devs all but told us that End Raiders were the only thing that counted despite creating a story based game and a solo leveling experience, and despite having more than a few non raiding guilds on both sides of the factions. As I said Bioware tried it and it failed. I am hoping against hope this is just a case of throwing one playstyle a bone and not the new normal...if it is SWTOR will not survive.

Edited November 24, 2021 by Jett-Rinn

[TrixxieTriss]

The "reinventing the wheel" part is a major systems update on multiple fronts, including graphics, UI, bolster recode, skill tree/combat styles, etc. These things seem like they would take a good chunk of resources to build out. Unfortunately, it does seem like it comes at the expense of playable content.

 

One of the more interesting rumors that I've heard is that some of this re-coding and new rendering might help with desync. Fingers crossed.

 

Anyway, this game does need to be modernized, imo. The last big "under the hood" overhaul that I remember was 4.0.

 

 

You are right of course with your points. The game does need a lot of under the hood tuning up.

When I say reinventing the wheel I should be more specific and say gearing systems. But I’m also offhandedly referring to them nuking conquest and other systems to cater to a specific player base. Those things like gearing could have been tweaked a little bit, but they’ve obviously spent a great amount of energy redesigning it at the expense of more content.

 

Without digging through the livestream again, I thought they said they would give us more info about the pvp update before 7.0 launches. Maybe I was wrong.

 

I think this might be all the PVP info we are getting before 7.0 releases

For those who are already looking ahead to the next season, we have big changes for PvP coming next year in Game Update 7.2. Stay tuned for more details!

 

Referenced from recent post regarding ranked pvp

https://www.swtor.com/info/news/article/20211122-0

Edited November 24, 2021 by TrixxieTriss

[MystyqeofXev]

@ OlBuzzard, I worked Army Contracting in Afghanistan as a CoR. While there were problems all around, the biggest burr under my saddle was a small company that never made any benchmark, or met any of the contracting "specifications".

 

They got the contract by RIDICULOUSLY underbidding. (Red flag).

 

********************

 

I don't believe Trixxie is urinating onto anybody's Wheaties. She's simply asking for PROOF. I can claim I went on a date last night with Elizabeth Hurley, but unless you see Instagram pics (and know who I am), you are welcome to question my claim.

[oslek]

The brick analogy fall apart because Swtor's group content has never been it's big draw. We use bricks as building materials instead of as hammers because it's what they are best at. Swtor strength has always been it's single player story. Swtor draw has always been it's IP and it's story. That's also been it's strength.

 

So yes, I am arguing Swtor is doesn't fit the mold of MMOs. Many raiders argue that Swtor needs to fit a mold it never really has. Swtor has always played more like a single player game with a multiplayer component. Which make sense considering who made it.

 

What makes you incorrect is that the majority of content in the game has always been solo. That also means the most resources have been put toward solo content. You obviously feel that it needs to focus on multiplayer. It just is not and never has been that game. You view of what Swtor should be doesn't match what it has even been.

 

This issue is honestly an old one that goes back to the beginnings of the game. Swtor never was really all in on the typical MMO formula.

 

Let's leave this to the side for moment. The other issue is customer choice. I want to pay the game how I want. I do not care what the developers want. I want the same freedom for other players. At the core of a lot these changes is Bioware trying to encourage certain playstyles and discourages others. It is not even group vs solo play. It is one kind of solo play: Operations, with a focus on progression at that. Nothing is being done for PvP or GSF.

 

As I have said more than once, casual players are the majority of every major online multiplayer game. These changes do not encourage them to stick around. They are going to leave. Doesn't matter if you agree with them. Doesn't matter if you like the changes or not. The story content coming is too light. One new Op and Op focused gearing is not going to be enough to draw group focused players back or draw new players to the game. Too many other games have better group content. WoW refugees have gone to FF14 not Swtor mostly. Less players hurts us all.

 

I really hope I am wrong or as things change with updates we can get folks back.

 

Edit: Here's hoping the Op focused folks can keep the game going the way casuals have.

 

I totally get what you are saying, but the truth is there is never enough story content because there is no company big enough to constantly spit out fully voiced stories on a consistent basis. Many of us pointed this out back in development. Every time new story content is released it's usually swallowed within a few days by the content locusts and then away they go to the next game. So they are going to leave no matter what because the game has little to offer outside the story.

 

I still remember back when this game was released. Over $200 million dollars was spent to make a fully voiced 1 to 50 level experience and players reached it within days. Then complained because the other parts of the game ( the MMO) were lacking. Bioware would have been better off making this a single player game and charge for DLCs.

 

Coming back and looking at the available servers I couldn't believe it: FIVE SERVERS for the whole game? THIS is your idea of keeping the game going? Not to Bioware and not to anyone being objective. That's embarrassing. This game had dozens of servers going back in the day. Clearly the attempt at focusing as a single player game and forgetting everything else hasn't worked. Stories are fine, but once people read them they toss them to the side and move on. Like it or not, this game is designed as an MMORPG which means money is being spent to keep it going just like any MMORPG. You need repeatable or group content of some kind to keep players coming back. You also need difficult but reachable progression of some kind so that players have something to look forward to. Otherwise, you're going to keep losing people no matter how many yarns you spit out.

Edited November 24, 2021 by oslek

[Toraak]

Thats my point right there. It’s Kieth trying to hype up the talk like he has always done with an expansion since he took over. Which isn’t a bad thing because you want the producer and devs to do that. But you and I have been here long enough that we should take that with a massive grain of salt because their hype never = reality.

 

 

 

The pvp update is supposed to come in 7.2. And the operation is supposed to come in 7.1. And that’s all we know about for next year. But in the past those 2 things would have been in the expansion at release instead taking them out and trying to say it’s extra stuff for the anniversary year.

 

That’s why I’m cynical about the hype and knit picking what people are saying. The reality is BioWare didn’t have the time or resources to add those into the expansion like they normally would. Some of it is probably logistical because of covid and some is because they’ve spent so much time reinventing the wheel. So if they really got a significant boost in funding like some others have suggested, where has it gone? It’s certainly not been translated into the playable content we would usually receive in an expansion at launch.

 

That’s my whole point. I don’t believe they’ve gotten extra funding and it’s why I asked for some proof because the evidence suggests they didn’t.

 

Not entirely true. Remember 5.0? The operation wasn't out at launch Gods of the machine was put out 1 boss at a time. It took many months to get it out fully. The expansion which had everything out at launch were the Paid expansions (hutt cartel, and revan). Kotfe had no Operations, and I don't think it had any PvP at it's launch either. I can't remember when they added the arena's, Yavin, or Proving ground PvP maps unfortunately. I think Yavin came out during the huge PvP summer patch sometime during 5.x tho.

[TrixxieTriss]

Not entirely true. Remember 5.0? The operation wasn't out at launch Gods of the machine was put out 1 boss at a time. It took many months to get it out fully. The expansion which had everything out at launch were the Paid expansions (hutt cartel, and revan). Kotfe had no Operations, and I don't think it had any PvP at it's launch either. I can't remember when they added the arena's, Yavin, or Proving ground PvP maps unfortunately. I think Yavin came out during the huge PvP summer patch sometime during 5.x tho.

 

But think about how much actual story content was in 5.0 at the expense of not adding the group stuff (which is why lots of group content players left the game). There was nearly as much as a single class story from vanilla. And then look at the amount of story we got in KoFE as a follow up.

By the time we get to 6.0 BioWare decided they needed to balance what they were releasing so that all the different parts of the player base got some content.

Now we are going into 7.0 and it doesn’t even look like an expansion to me. It’s more like a technology update and back end maintenance.

It’s obvious they’ve spent the majority of their budget changing things that didn’t need changing. So now we will get a tiny bit of story and a flash point as the only playable content at launch.

They’ve given no real explanation for all the time and effort to prune the class abilities and then try and rebalance the game. Maybe if we understood that part it would make more sense what they have planned. But from the outside it looks like a whole lot of changes and reinventing the wheel for no reason.

To top it off they are nuking gear progression for everyone but OPs players and doing some major damage to conquest too. Which is rightfully pissing off a large percentage of the player base.

I just can’t see this ending well.

[OlBuzzard]

@ OlBuzzard, I worked Army Contracting in Afghanistan as a CoR. While there were problems all around, the biggest burr under my saddle was a small company that never made any benchmark, or met any of the contracting "specifications".

 

They got the contract by RIDICULOUSLY underbidding. (Red flag).

 

********************

 

I don't believe Trixxie is urinating onto anybody's Wheaties. She's simply asking for PROOF. I can claim I went on a date last night with Elizabeth Hurley, but unless you see Instagram pics (and know who I am), you are welcome to question my claim.

That's one thing about being a retail outlet that competes (or at least tries to) on a national level. We were selling exactly the same items both locally and to our customers over a 4 state area. We had to have EXACTLY the same products by the EXACT same manufactures. The pressure really gets a bit intense when the owner demands to know why we're not competing!!!

 

So ... as much as you would like to make an allegation of undercutting with substandard supplies and products ... you might try asking if were selling the same items .. ( We were ... even the SAME PART NUMBERS from the identical manufactures. )

 

BACK on topic. Regardless of how many people are working for EA / BW ... the proof of how effective they are is determined by the customers they have / keep. IMO that really is the bottom line.

 

As (again) as for me personally ... I will see what transpires between now and Feb 1 of next year ( the approximate date of my sub renewal).

[Toraak]

But think about how much actual story content was in 5.0 at the expense of not adding the group stuff (which is why lots of group content players left the game). There was nearly as much as a single class story from vanilla. And then look at the amount of story we got in KoFE as a follow up.

By the time we get to 6.0 BioWare decided they needed to balance what they were releasing so that all the different parts of the player base got some content.

Now we are going into 7.0 and it doesn’t even look like an expansion to me. It’s more like a technology update and back end maintenance.

It’s obvious they’ve spent the majority of their budget changing things that didn’t need changing. So now we will get a tiny bit of story and a flash point as the only playable content at launch.

They’ve given no real explanation for all the time and effort to prune the class abilities and then try and rebalance the game. Maybe if we understood that part it would make more sense what they have planned. But from the outside it looks like a whole lot of changes and reinventing the wheel for no reason.

To top it off they are nuking gear progression for everyone but OPs players and doing some major damage to conquest too. Which is rightfully pissing off a large percentage of the player base.

I just can’t see this ending well.

 

How would any of us know that? None of the maps of Manaan were shown on the PTS. No story was on the PTS, no Manaan Daily area was on the PTS. None of us actually have information to say how much or how little is in this expansion.

 

1) A lot went into the class changes.

 

2) Boosting all the FP's, and Ops to max level probably isn't easy.

 

3) None of us know how much went into the story, and daily area. your assuming it's as short as 6.0, but we don't know that

 

4) While the operation isn't ready at launch, they said they were putting it on the PTS about the time 7.0 launched, which means it's close enough to completion to be tested. That took a lot of work.

 

5) How much did it take for them to overhaul the UI changes?

 

6) How hard was it for them to decouple the story from the Advanced classes?

 

7) How hard was it to code in the Loadouts part of the expansion? (which none of us got to test unfortunately).

 

8) how hard was it to allow us to have a 2nd combat style?

 

I could go on, but where you see little content, I see a lot of hard work that has clearly been put into this expansion, and I appreciate that work. Not to mention we're going to keep seeing more things as the 10th year anniversary year goes on. Op comes out in 7.1, I've read someplace (not sure where) that 7.2 will be a PvP patch, and they said crafting would be put in later this year. I believe someplace one of the Devs (Keith maybe) that the Expansion wouldn't really be complete until the end of 2022. Meaning more content would keep coming throughout the year.

[MystyqeofXev]

1) A lot went into the class changes.

 

2) Boosting all the FP's, and Ops to max level probably isn't easy.

 

3) None of us know how much went into the story, and daily area. your assuming it's as short as 6.0, but we don't know that

 

4) While the operation isn't ready at launch, they said they were putting it on the PTS about the time 7.0 launched, which means it's close enough to completion to be tested. That took a lot of work.

 

5) How much did it take for them to overhaul the UI changes?

 

6) How hard was it for them to decouple the story from the Advanced classes?

 

7) How hard was it to code in the Loadouts part of the expansion? (which none of us got to test unfortunately).

 

8) how hard was it to allow us to have a 2nd combat style?

 

I

 

(1) Opinion based on no quantifiable, or verifiable data.

 

(2) It's actually quite easy. WoW does it on the fly with a mechanic called "Flex raiding"

 

(3) Given their track record of content declining each expansion, it's safe to extrapolate there won't be much meat on the bone. Granted, we would ALL love to be proven wrong, but, I doubt we will.

 

(4) How do you know "it took a lot of work"?

 

(5) If a major selling point is a UI change? See (3) regarding "meat on the bone"> FYI, there are add-on creators who can do fantastic things. (My UI in WoW looked nothing like the base model)

 

(6) We don't know. Do you?

 

(7) We don't know. Do you?

 

(8) We don't know. Do you?

 

There's an old axiom, "you get what you pay for". Given that this "expansion" is free? I'm hoping said axiom is wrong in this case.

[phalczen]

How would any of us know that? None of the maps of Manaan were shown on the PTS. No story was on the PTS, no Manaan Daily area was on the PTS. None of us actually have information to say how much or how little is in this expansion.

 

1) A lot went into the class changes.

 

2) Boosting all the FP's, and Ops to max level probably isn't easy.

 

3) None of us know how much went into the story, and daily area. your assuming it's as short as 6.0, but we don't know that

 

4) While the operation isn't ready at launch, they said they were putting it on the PTS about the time 7.0 launched, which means it's close enough to completion to be tested. That took a lot of work.

 

5) How much did it take for them to overhaul the UI changes?

 

6) How hard was it for them to decouple the story from the Advanced classes?

 

7) How hard was it to code in the Loadouts part of the expansion? (which none of us got to test unfortunately).

 

8) how hard was it to allow us to have a 2nd combat style?

 

I could go on, but where you see little content, I see a lot of hard work that has clearly been put into this expansion, and I appreciate that work. Not to mention we're going to keep seeing more things as the 10th year anniversary year goes on. Op comes out in 7.1, I've read someplace (not sure where) that 7.2 will be a PvP patch, and they said crafting would be put in later this year. I believe someplace one of the Devs (Keith maybe) that the Expansion wouldn't really be complete until the end of 2022. Meaning more content would keep coming throughout the year.

 

Ok Toraak even if all your assumptions about the quantity and quality of effort being high, it all still boils down to a couple of facts:

1). There are substantial changes to the advanced class system and leveling experience and utility system that may facilitate future enhancements that, by themselves, do not directly facilitate group content. In other words, the supposition that all these changes may make it easier to have new advan... sorry, Combat Styles, in the future, a new combat style doesn’t directly make group content more interesting, or more appealing. An individual player may enjoy their operation more because they are playing a Teras Kasi agent or whatever, but it won’t directly facilitate doing operations. And quite honestly, if the developers designed an operation that required the group to take this hypothetical new class into the operation or it could not be completed, then I would call that unwise.

2). There are substantial changes to the overall theme of gearing which undo shifts accomplished over a period of five years. I could go into more detail but we all know what they are and one way to summarize it is as follows: you can only get the best gear by doing the hardest content. When I think about the complaints of raiders over the years, it really has not been “I don’t like that scrubs, noobs, and story mode heroes can get top iRating gear.” There are some complaints that people think they are ready for vet mode and master mode ops because they are sitting in 306 gear fully augmented with tacticals and set bonus, but those threads pale in comparison to the number one complaint: “Gear is not content.” Grinding for the top level gear was not good enough in 4.0 when there were no operations, and it wasn’t good enough in 5.x when you grinded 258 gear to do ostensibly be able to do master mode Gods. So, even though the hearing changes may segregate the population into geared and under geared players, I’m still not convinced these changes cause more group play. To boot, they weren’t even publicized when the OP made their thread.

3). The group content the OP claims they came back for isn’t even launching with the expansion.

[Rion_Starkiller]

When I say reinventing the wheel I should be more specific and say gearing systems. But I’m also offhandedly referring to them nuking conquest and other systems to cater to a specific player base. Those things like gearing could have been tweaked a little bit, but they’ve obviously spent a great amount of energy redesigning it at the expense of more content.

 

It seems like some piece of the gearing equation is missing, tbh. However, it could be that the devs need some metrics in the new system, so they left it very simplistic to start.

 

As for catering to a specific player base, I don’t think 1 new raid in 2 years and some raid specific gear means the devs are catering to raiders. In fact, I know a few raiders quitting the game in 7.0 because they don’t feel like re-gearing to do the exact same raids they were doing before. When 7.2 comes out, I’m not going to say the devs are catering to pvp’ers. I’m going to say, “oh yeah, I guess it’s your turn now.”

Edited November 25, 2021 by Rion_Starkiller