Operative Feedback

[Jasster]

Losing sleep dart is rough. I feel like I’ve lost some class identity there, as well as utility. Even a nerf would be better than losing it completely. I’m curious the reasoning behind removing it. It really seems missing in pve content especially, especially solo but also group.

 

Debilitate being a choice doesn’t feel great either, although not as bad as losing sleep dart. For pvp, this is nearly a must have. For pve, especially solo, it’s also very useful, and it’s odd to choose between it.

 

Countermeasures being gone is pretty situational, so as long as pulling threat isn’t an issue due to some other unannounced change, it’s sad but not necessarily a bad change. I can understand that one. If threat isn’t changed, pulling aggro from inexperienced/learning tanks might be an issue in pug groups.

 

Losing Overload Shot isn’t terrible either for dps. It’s a nice filler, but not 100% necessary. Healers are missing a lot more with it gone though than dps are.

 

I actually enjoy a lot of the new options in the ability tree. Some of these other changes seem fun, and I’m looking forward to them, it’s just hard to notice them when missing sleep dart is such an issue.

 

Overall, not as gutting as the guardian changes, but I don’t feel as much like a stealth class without sleep dart. Please bring that back, preferably in full, but at least in some form you won’t bring it back in full.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Jasster

[Galbsadi]

Medicine Operative is one of my mains, so I'll focus more on that. I dabble in Concealment, so I'll be less thorough there.

 

MEDICINE

Do the abilities available make this experience feel like you are playing an Operative? Please explain why or why not.

 

Mostly, yes, but there's some caveats here.

First off, Sleep Dart: This feels like a key part of the toolkit for any stealth class. It's just part of what you do. I'm not sure what Bioware's intention is here, but presuming that it's related to PvP, maybe a better idea would be to have it not last as long in such situations? (i.e. make it last only 5 seconds or so on players, and that's fine)

Update: this appears to have been a bug, as the 8/26 update returned Sleep Dart.

Next up, Overload Shot: I don't miss this ability per se, it was mostly a filler when I had spare energy, shiv and backstab were off cooldown, and nobody needed healing. If Bioware's intention is to simplify the class here, however, removing this COULD be viable...if paired with, for example, removing the cooldown on shiv. As far as removing abilities go, however, I feel like a much better candidate would have been something like noxious knives, which is almost entirely worthless, and almost never used, in my experience.

Lv15 Ability selection: I really like this. This is, in my opinion, well designed. I could see scenarios where each of these could be useful, but none of these feel REQUIRED for all content.

Debilitate/Lv20 Ability selection: I'm going to go somewhat against the grain here and say that this is probably fine at higher levels. If you need a stun it's there, if you don't, then the Clever Countermeasures option is nice. Imperial strategies, however, is worthless, because noxious knives is already garbage.

Lv30 Ability selection: I like these as well. Very similar notes to the lv15 abilities.

Lv35 Ability seleciton: For the most part I like these, although tactical overdrive feels kinda weak with a 3m cooldown compared to the other options. If the Cd was 2m, this would be much better.

Lv50 Ability selection: I think these are perfectly fine, assuming content is balanced appropriately.

Lv60 Ability selection: Endorphin Rush and Escape Plan here feel fine, having good use in PvE and PvP, but Evasive Imperative feels very underwhelming.

Lv70 Ability selection: I really don't like being forced to pick between these abilities. Both Flash Bang and Infiltrate are a staple for a lot of group content (especially with Sleep Dart being removed), and Holotraverse feels like it should be a staple part of the class as a whole, similar to Sleep Dart.

Lv80 Ability Selection: Theoretically these look fine. I can't speak to how they'd play, because of level cap, but they look fine.

 

 

Overall, I feel like losing sleep dart is a big hit to class identity, and should at the very least be allowed as an option to keep, if not made baseline. If made an option, it could fit in well as an option between Infiltrate and Holotraverse, with Flash Bang made baseline. I'm not a fan of Overload Shot being removed, but that could be perfectly fine if the CD was removed from Shiv to keep the rotation similar (and that would actually simplify things for players less used to buttons). I don't hate the changes like I did Guardian, but there's room for improvement here.

Update: with sleep dart being returned, that removes my biggest concern. There's still some rotational issues due to the CD on Shiv coupled with removing Overload Shot, but that's far less of an issue.

 

Is the ability tree easy to understand?

It is. I don't particularly care for the colors (the pink is jarring), but otherwise, it's not bad. That said, while I can see what the designers were aiming for with the lines at the 10->15 and 25->30 abilities, these probably aren't necessary (but they don't hurt, either). I do slightly miss the summary from the current live, but it's not bad.

 

CONCEALMENT

Do the abilities available make this experience feel like you are playing an Operative? Please explain why or why not.

 

 

Same notes re: Tranq dart as listed for medicine. It's just...missing, and it's a key part of class identity.

Power shot here is much more missed, and absolutely needs the CD removed from Shiv/Veiled Strike.

Lv15 Ability selection feels good.

Lv20 Ability selection feels good except noxious knives, which is worthless.

Lv30 Ability selection is curious, although for Crippling Throw to be a viable option, it probably needs a longer range than 10m.

Lv35 feels good except tactical overdrive, which needs a shorter CD.

Lv50 abilities feel fine.

Lv60, 70, and 80 have the same notes as Medicine, above.

 

 

Overall, the biggest losses here remain the same as with Medicine, with similar notes to resolve.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Galbsadi
changes to PTS 8/26/2021

[Iymurra]

Hoooo boy, Operative Feedback.

I love my operative. I play Concealment and Lethality on the regular (though I raid more in Lethality and PvP more in Concealment).

Lets do some operative feedback shall we?

 

I'm going to preface this by saying that none of the changes fulfill my class fantasy. BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE ORBITAL STRIKE. Yes, I'm still salty about that. I know its been years. I STILL WANT IT BACK.

 

On to business.

 

Operative 7.0 PTS

 

Initial Changes:

 

Missing Abilities:

• Overload Shot
  
• Sever Tendon
  
• Debilitate
  
• Flashbang
  
• Tactical Superiority
  
• Tactical Overdrive
  
• Sleep Dart
  
• Countermeasures
  

Some returned by discipline choices.

 

Lethality: New Discipline Tree

 

 

10: Corrosive Assault

15: New Passives

• Corrosive Return: TA Refund if CA uses last TA, once per 10s. Stim Boost duration + 5s
  
• Penetrating Strategies: increase ARpen, Crit Chance, Crit Damage by 10% for CA
  
• Corrosive Impair: Increase weapon damage by 10% and slow target by 40%
  

20: New Choices

• Imperial Strategies: Noxious Knives deals 25% increased damage and slows targets by 40%
  
• Sly Countermeasures: Evasion decreases threat by a moderate amount and lasts for 2 seconds longer
  
• Debilitate
  

25: Corrosive Grenade

30: New Passives

• Critical Grenade: Corrosive Grenade increases the critical hit damage your periodic effects to (typo in-game) on targets it effects
  
• Corrosive Refund: Corrosive Grenade refunds 2 energy for each target it hits
  
• Corrosive Defense: Corrosive Grenade does 10% more initial damage and reduces damage taken from affected targets by 10%
  

35: New Choices

• Tactical Stims: Stim boost purges movement impairs and maxes out TAs
  
• Tactical Overdrive
  
• Tactical Offense: Having a TA increases damage done and healing by 5%
  

40: Toxic Blast

55: Lethal Strike

60: New Choices

• Evasive Imperative
  
• Endorphin Rush
  
• Escape Plan
  

70: New Choices

• Infiltrate
  
• Flashbang
  
• Holotraverse
  

80: New Choices

• Med Shield
  
• Jarring Strike
  
• Blow for Blow
  

 

 

Listed Passives:

 

• 1: Lethal Proliferation
  
• 10: License to Kill
  
• 20: Fatality
  
• 30: Toxic Regulators
  
• 40: Corrosive Microbes
  
• 50: Lethal Purpose
  
• 60: Quickening
  
• 70: Devouring Microbes
  
• 80: Augmented Toxins
  

 

Missing Passives:

 

• Lethal Dose (5% crit chance for periodics)
  

 

Present but unlisted:

• Lethal Injectors (in CD tooltip)
  
• Combat Stims (in SB tooltip)
  
• Adhesive Corrosives (in CG tooltip)
  
• Cut Down (in Shiv tooltip)
  
• Acidic Compounds (TB not present? CG in Microbes)
  

 

 

Feedback RE: Lethality Discipline changes

 

 

Firstly: Theres missing information in the discipline path about how lethality alters the behavior of some abilities. Specific note should be taken to the abilities mentioned in the "Present but unlisted" category. Shiv, CG, Stim Boost, CDart, to name a few. Not listing this information is acceptable for old hats like myself who learned most of these changes years and years ago, but is unintuitive and dangerously opaque for newer players who won't understand why the abilities behave differently between disciplines since the ability behavior differences aren't listed as distinct to specific discipline paths.

 

Secondly: Lets talk about the new passives. Fundamentally I like the idea you're driving towards but I want to call out two passives which do not compete with the other 4.

 

Corrosive Impair doesn't meaningfully impact damage dealt (white damage is the smallest part of a Corrosive Assault, all the actual damage is in the skill forcing the dots to tick) and the slow is meaningless as Corrosive Grenade applies a permanent 30% slow to all affected targets. The difference between 30% and 40% slow is meaningless, especially when contrasted to the two other passives which meaningfully increase damage dealt.

 

Corrosive Refund does not help with energy management. I want to specifically call this ability out as energy management in lethality is not easy. Especially sub-level 50 which is where you've moved the energy regen passive to in this build. AoE energy generation is not a problem for lethality. Never has been. If you dotspread you have dart, grenade, haze, and noxious knives all generating at least one energy per tick above level 50. Below level 50 this ability may see some use but its a trap as CG is usually applied BEFORE all the other damage you do, and generating energy while you're at full, before you use all your energy on killing groups of mobs, doesn't actually help with energy management.

 

Aside from these two... I like the idea behind Corrosive Return. I think that Penetrating Strategies has potential (provided it affects forced dot ticks as well and not just CA). Critical Grenade and Corrosive Defense will both have a use too I think.

 

Thirdly: Lets talk about the problem choices.

The level 20 choice between Debilitate and Sly Countermeasures. (no one is going to pick imperial strategies, this isn't how operatives do AoE damage). This is a problem choice. For one: Evasion is a DCD, attaching a threat drop to your DCD is a bad idea. You're creating the choice of either using a threat drop, or holding the DCD for when you need it (i.e. Purges). I think the general thinking behind this plan is to create a utility which functions in PvE (things stop targeting you) or PvP (longer defensive uptime) but what you're doing here is what you did to Stim Boost a while back and adding functionality to an ability which ALREADY had functionality. If you want to get rid of countermeasures, thats fine. Operatives have a threat drop in cloak. We don't need countermeasures to be functional. But the idea behind sly countermeasures is one I take issue with.

 

In addition we have the problem of the choice between Debilitate and Sly Countermeasures. Here you're putting a DCD up against a method of CC. I honestly don't think this is going to be a choice. Debilitate is just stronger. You can use it defensively (stun for 4s so you don't take damage), offensively (prevent movement or casts)... it just has more use cases. What I would suggest here instead is the choice between Flashbang or Debilitate (and something else I suppose). Flashbang and Debilitate fultill similar roles, control. Choosing one of the other is meaningful. Choosing debilitate or a threat drop for Op... isn't.

 

The 35 choice looks fine tbh. Nothing really stands out here.

 

The level 50 choice is... ow. It hurts... but its a fair set of choices. Infiltrator is probably the weakest of the bunch here.

 

The level 60 choice is... mostly good. Endorphin Rush... doesn't really belong here. But the choice between Evasive Imperative and Escape Plan hurts... (oh how it hurts) but its a fair choice. Endorphin Rush... I'd just bake it into the class already and put med shield here instead. (or some other defensive)

 

The level 70 choice... I don't understand why infiltrate is here. Its an ability that gets used maybe once in a warzone, flashpoint, or raid. Its a nice class fantasy thing, it hardly ever works, and it has no combat benefit.

Flashbang I don't feel is fair to put here, its control and it should be competing with debilitate or something similar. Holotraverse is the clear PvE winner here as it currently has the circumvention passive baked in (generating a TA once every 35s). I don't like this choice, and I don't really see it as a choice for PvE at least...

 

The level 80 passives... I'm going to be honest. No-one takes Jarring Strike anymore except for maybe EC if you're carrying a group which can't find their interrupts on Kephess. Med Shield vs. Blow for Blow is... I'm probably going to take Blow for Blow. This choice doesn't really mean anything to me.

 

 

Suggestions RE Lethality

 

 

First Suggestion: Take a long and hard look at energy generation in this spec. Every year you push Lethal Purpose higher and higher in the tree which is a BAD THING. Lethality is incredibly energy hungry. Leveling in lethality below level 40something right now? It sucks. Big time.

Leveling in lethality below level 50 with these changes? It'll suck. Big time. Starving a class for energy doesn't feel good and I wish you would strongly rethink where in the tree Lethal Purpose ends up. I'd recommend a range between level 25 to 35 so that when you're fighting your Act 1 class boss, you actually feel like the spec isn't starving.

 

Second Suggestion: Change the way Lethality does AoE.

Noxious Knives serves 3 purposes: Its filler when everything else is on CD. You can use it to break people out of stealth in PvP, and since its AoE it bypasses Saber Reflect and the Merc reflect (also in PvP).

Noxious Knives is the absolute lowest priority ability for Operatives. Full stop. I don't even think its effective until you're fighting around 5 or more targets.

What I'd suggest is this: Give us the option of changing how we play with AoE. Give us a choice between... oh... doubling Noxious Knives damage and reducing energy cost, Having Toxic Haze (15ish seconds CD) and Orbital Strike (45s CD).

This gives us choices about how we want to work with our kit. Long cooldown, high damage AoE. Shorter CD, stuns weaks, or high damage spammable AoE. (AND IT BRINGS BACK ORBITAL STRIKE! YES!)

Lethality AoE is potentially quite high (with sustain) but it takes a long time to set up and is often not worth the time to set up properly. Giving us better options here would be welcome.

 

Third suggestion: critically evaluate Synox Shots and single target energy generation for Lethality.

Currently Synox Shots makes Lethality energy abundant. Without Synox Shots... the rotation is energy negative and will run into energy problems every minute and a half, at minimum. Properly weaving in basic attacks can help alleviate this, however lethality then suffers from an overabundance of Tactical Advantages, and not enough energy to spend them. One of the problems is that Lethality has only two 'free' attacks. A Corrosive Assault with the Fatality proc, and the basic attack. Everything else costs energy and pushes the spec towards energy starvation. Even Toxic Blast costs energy.

Energy generation (and stronger attacks) are therefore at the mercy of the 10% chance for dots to tick twice.

I strongly recommend reviewing energy generation without Synox Shots (on single targets) and deciding if it is in the right place, especially sub level 70 (before you can even acquire Synox Shots).

 

And lastly: Spec identity. What is the gearing 'goal' of Lethality? Serious question. Augmented Toxins increases your crit chance and damage with a % modifier. This makes crit more valuable.

Lethal purpose increases energy regen every time a periodic effect ticks. This makes Alacrity more valuable.

Stim boos is on a shorter cooldown. % modifiers to alacrity benefit alacrity more, allowing us to push into higher alacrity tiers and attack faster. This values alacrity.

Synox shots increases energy generation by relying on crit. This values crit...

Toxic Blast has a duration unaffected by alacrity, this allows for higher burst in high-alacrity builds by getting off more attacks in the TB window. This values alacrity...

 

What is the actual goal of Lethality? High-Alacrity? High-Crit? Somewhere in between? Only lightning sorcs have a similar burst interaction (forcing additional ticks of damage in a high-alacrity window) to lethality, yet lethality doesn't have the same interaction with alacrity that lightning sorcs do.

 

Would it be too much to propose a new passive... call it... oh... Calculated Furor which increases alacrity by 1% for 6s every time a dot ticks?

 

Anyways... take the musings on class gearing as a side thought. AoE options should be expanded. Energy generation for the spec needs a look.

And can we PLEASE have Orbital Strike back? Pretty please?

 

 

 

Concealment: New Discipline Tree

 

 

10: Laceration

15: New Passives:

• Defensive Stance: dealing damage with lacerate increases DR by 3% for 6s, stacks up to 3 times
  
• Roll Knife: Laceration crit chances increased by 10%, activating lacerate reduces cd on stim boost by 10s
  
• Relentless Blades: Laceration no longer costs energy, also slows target by 50% for 6s
  

20: New Choices

• Imperial Strategies: Noxious Knives deals 25% increased damage and slows targets by 40%
  
• Debilitate
  
• Sly Countermeasures: Evasion decreases threat by a moderate amount and lasts for 2 seconds longer
  

25: Crippling Slice

30: New Choices

• Crippling Throw: (turn crippling slice 10m ranged and generates TA)
  
• The Best Defense: Crippling Slice causes you to take 20% reduced damage from affected target for 6s
  
• Crippling Wounds: Next attack against target after crippling slice is autocrit, lasts up to 10s
  

35: New Choices

• Tactical Critical: critting with direct damage attack applies tactical critical to you and reduces cd of stim boost by 2s per stack. Stacks last 1.5s and stack up to 5 times. In addition activating stim boost purges movement impairs.
  
• Advanced Stealth: While Stealthed, using an attack which generates a TA and breaks stealth will increase your M/R defense by 200% for 3s and make your next direct attack autocrit. Dealing or taking damage breaks active stealth.
  
• Tactical Overdrive
  

40: Volatile Substance

50: New Choices

• Infiltrator: increase stealth level and move speed by 15%
  
• Advanced Cloaking: decreases cd on cloaking screen by 30s
  
• Chem-Resistant Inlays: increases DR by 5%
  

55: Veiled Strike

60: New Choices

• Evasive Imperative
  
• Endorphin Rush
  
• Escape Plan
  

70: New Choices

• Infiltrate
  
• Flashbang
  
• Holotraverse
  

80: New Choices

• Med Shield
  
• Jarring Strike
  
• Blow for Blow
  

 

Kept Passives:

• 1: Waylay
  
• 20: Tactical Opportunity
  
• 30: Culling
  
• 40: Acid Blade
  
• 50: Prey on the Weak (Now Laceration instead of Collateral Strike)
  
• 60: Shadow Operative Elite
  
• 70: Revealing Weakness
  
• 80: Calculated Frenzy
  

 

New Passive:

• 10: Critical Stimulants
  

 

Missing Passives:

• Deadly Toxins (noxious knives crit chance and damage)
  
• Collateral Strike (Baked in?)
  
• Scouting (stealth detect +5, dodge +2%)
  
• Ghost (countermeasures movespeed +50%)
  
• Enhanced Chemicals (VS crit chance and damage +5%)
  
• Meticulously Kept Blades (Crit Damage Veiled, VS, Backstab, Laceration 10%)
  
• Surgical Strikes (Veiled Strike & Overload Shot 5% damage increase)
  

 

 

Feedback RE Concealment Discipline changes

 

 

Firstly: Same deal here as with Lethality. Changes to the base class abilities aren't all listed. The biggest offender here is Collateral Strike. While the collateral strike to Laceration has been implemented, its not listed anywhere and so I cannot find the damage values within the UI. Additional, the tooltip for Tactical Opportinity doesn't reference Laceration which is a confusing loop for newer players.

 

Second: Lets hit the new passives again.

I like all of these.

I think Roll Knife is probably too strong. Defensive Stance is good. Relentless Blades is interesting but probably weak.

Crippling Throw is Sever Tendon with the passive... okay. The Best Defense... is probably too weak. Its DR from a Single Target after all, and PvP is usually about getting ganged up on. Crippling Wounds I like. This promotes good rotational awareness.

 

For the level 35 choices... Oooof. Advanced Stealth is *really* weak. And counterintuitive.

Advanced Stealth give you an autocrit and Evasion (without actually giving you Evasion) for 3s after you use an ability which generates a TA to exit stealth.

You have three potential options here. 1). Shiv/Veiled Strike. 2). Backstab. 3) Not-Sever Tendon.

Of these options, Backstab is the right choice, as it gives you more damage when used from stealth. And then... you get an Autocrit. It doesn't last long enough to use on Volatile Substance. So you use it on Laceration and its pretty meh.

I'd take this back to the drawing board.

Tactical Critical is... strong. Very strong.

Tactical Overdrive is good burst.

 

For the level 50, 60, 70, and 80 choices I refer you to my feedback from the Lethality section, as these choices are the same.

 

 

Concealment Suggestions and Concerns:

 

 

Start this one out by saying that I am concerned.

Roll Knife, Stim Boost, Critical Stimulants, and Tactical Critical are all very tightly woven together.

I don't really see any reason to use any of the other passives you've added in. Your stim boost window is your burst window, and these choices all revolve around getting you back to your burst phase as quickly as possible.

 

Its a good idea for a rotational loop, but I'm worried that its imbalanced, stim boost comes back very quickly with these talents and is responsible for a very large damage increase.

 

Outside of that concerning (also very fun) loop... uh...

 

AoE needs a look. Concealment AoE is worse than Lethality.

 

There are a lot of unidentified and/or missing passives from live that I don't see in Concealment on the PTS. A lot of these are % modifiers to damage, crit chance, or crit damage so its easy to understand why they wouldn't show up if they were baked in as with the lethality passives.

 

 

A couple general notes and concerns:

1: Energy generation passives for both DPS specs are a lot higher placed than I think they should be.

2: Sleep Dart needs to be returned.

3: I miss Overload Shot, it is my answer to Shroud. But I understand you taking it away. This does raise DPS concerns for Medicine Operatives however.

4: Gimme back Orbital Strike.

6: Gimme back Orbital Strike.

7: I WANT ORBITAL STRIKE BACK. ITS THE AGENTS CLASS DEFINING HEROIC MOMENT ABILITY. GIMME.

8: Imperial Strategies is not a good talent.

9: GIVE ME ORBITAL STRIKE! You can have Toxic Haze. I want ORBITAL STRIKE!

10: Where is the Operatives Raid Buff?

 

GIVE

US

BACK

ORBITAL

STRIKE.

 

Oh, yes. I could run all the dailies on Onderon fine as is. My gear score was about 295 or so. I did have a companion out (as tank).

But this hasn't been an issue for me in any of the builds. So its not really relevant to the feedback you're looking for.

 

The ability tree was fairly intuitive for me. But I've been playing this game a long time and I have a good memory for the passive icons for lethality & concealment which gives me more information to work from than a new player would have. i.e. I can immediately identify what are active and passive abilities in the tree, which is something that newer players probably cannot do.

 

I did not like the new abilities window. I prefer the one on live. This one is unfinished though so I'll hold off ragging on it until I can better see what you're aiming for.

 

There was one glaring error that I did see however.

 

ORBITAL STRIKE WAS MISSING FROM OPERATIVES.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Iymurra

[DjiiniTwo]

Making their gap closer optional? Just another drop in the bucket proving that the devs don't have a damn clue what each class actually needs, huh.

 

Countermeasures: A threat drop should neither be optional, nor baked into a DCD. When you're facetanking in a Flashpoint, and use Evasion to take a bit less damage, you want it to last longer without making the mob switch targets. Mainly an issue for "Veteran" group content. No big deal when soloing it or when there is an actual tank, will miss the root-break utility, though.

 

This guy is also exactly correct. This push to simplify things to bring in new players is ridiculous at best. It'll lose you as many players as it gains you, if not more. Bad, bad, bad.

Edited August 25, 2021 by DjiiniTwo

[BillyPotatoes]

I looked over the Operative on the PTS, and I'll comment mostly on the Medicine spec here.

 

Overall the changes seem fine. Loading up evasion with extra effects, like a threat drop, seems odd to me. Having too many different effects makes the ability feel more clunky to use, and also makes it a less like a distinct ability.

 

I'd like to see the heal over time component on Kolto Infusion (granted by the Curative Agent utility on live) added back onto the ability for healers on the PTS. It would go a long way toward differentiating Kolto Infusion and Kolto Injection, while also keeping the theme of the heal over time healer. It would also make it different from the Infusion dps have, and more in line with the other operative abilities.

 

The loss of Overload Shot for the Medicine spec does reduce the specs ability to do solo content, as well as the overall damage they can do. It leaves the spec without a real filler for when they do damage, and it does feel clunky. I'd rather have Overload Shot than Frag Grenade, but as long as there is a filler damaging agility available to healers it really doesn't matter what it is. Even a buff to Rifle Shot would be fine, just something to fill the void while Backstab and Shiv are on cooldown.

 

I'd also like to know if the reduced pushback while casting that healers currently enjoy will exist in 7.0? That would be a painful passive to lose.

[jacobdecker]

Not sure if you are aware but for the medicine discipline when you spec into the evasion giving a tactical advantage it does not actually currently grant a tactical advantage.

[Estelindis]

For me, operative is not operative without sleep dart. I'll be devastated if it's permanently gone.

 

Sleep dart gives my SIS-loyal agent a way to avoid fighting Republic-aligned mobs - not every time, but a lot of the time. It's a huge part of my roleplaying experience for that character, who I've played since launch. I remember that first playthrough, starting the "double agent" storyline over-levelled... and by the end being so under-levelled (from using stealth and sleep dart to not to fight Republic mobs) that most of my opponents were red. I nearly couldn't make it past some combats. Managing to push through that self-imposed difficulty was one of my best SWTOR experiences, and cemented my view that roleplaying isn't just about what you choose it do, but also what you choose not to do.

 

If the issue with sleep dart is PvP, I suggest making it work differently in PvP. Please don't just take it wholesale.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Estelindis

[Baletraeger]

For me, operative is not operative without sleep dart. I'll be devastated if it's permanently gone.

 

Yeah I missed this in my first review yesterday. Removing the Sap ability from a stealth class is completely meta breaking. I'm going to me mad when you take away conc from merc, but taking away sap from stealth as well? It boggles my mind.

[Lord_Thorne]

For me, operative is not operative without sleep dart.

 

As far as I'm concerned, taking away Sleep Dart will kill the class. It's useful when solo, it's useful when in a group. Without it, there's hardly any point to stealth.

[Carba]

I've played operative since launch of SWG and also since launch of TOR. The defining characteristic is avoiding combat through stealth at great personal risk (because if you get caught you are dead). I did Hutta on PTS. The only ability on Hutta until the very end is basic rifle. There is no sense of risk or intrigue at all. No choice of rifle or bomb. Just spam basic at all groups of enemies up to a level higher. No deaths. When you get Kalio, she has five abilities and you still get one. Before heading to Fleet you get an ability that requires TA to execute but no ability to generate the TAs. No explanation of what a TA is or how to get them.

[LordCamTheGreat]

I've played operative since launch of SWG and also since launch of TOR. The defining characteristic is avoiding combat through stealth at great personal risk (because if you get caught you are dead). I did Hutta on PTS. The only ability on Hutta until the very end is basic rifle. There is no sense of risk or intrigue at all. No choice of rifle or bomb. Just spam basic at all groups of enemies up to a level higher. No deaths. When you get Kalio, she has five abilities and you still get one. Before heading to Fleet you get an ability that requires TA to execute but no ability to generate the TAs. No explanation of what a TA is or how to get them.

 

As I said in another thread, I'm pretty sure trainers have been disabled because we are not meant to be testing the levelling experience. In the getting started on x on the PTS thread (in this case operative and sniper), Jackie gave specific instructions when making a new character:

 

• Create a new Sniper or Operative
  
• Walk outside of the cantina and you will see the PTS Fleet Transport Droid (-441, 277)
  
• Speak to the droid, and select yes to travel to the Fleet.
  
• Head up to the main Fleet level
  
• Go to the Combat section and then to the Agent subsection (4803,4536)
  
• Talk to the CD-3 Combat Specializer Droid
  
• Press K to select your Discipline and go through selecting your abilities/passives from the Ability Tree. (This is a first look into the new UI so please note the WIP markers)
  
• Talk to all of the vendors to gear your character
  
• Talk to the Onderon Dreams: Travel Agent Droid to travel to Onderon
  
• Head to the Onderon Mission Board (-725, -291). NOTE: Speeder Piloting Level 3 is granted through this terminal.
  
• Because you may not have a ship, there a droid next to the Onderon Mission Board that will teleport you back to the Fleet
  

 

 

Further, just to prove that there will be more abilities during the early game, the Guardian for example gains the following between level 1-5:

 

~Levels 1-5 - These are not Discipline specific

• Strike (1)
  
• Slash (1)
  
• Force Leap (1)
  
• Blade Storm (4)
  
• Blade Barrage (5)
  

 

As such, from what I understand, when testing the PTS we are supposed to be testing the level 75 experience with access to nearly all of the abilities in the new ability window (replacement for the current combat proficiencies panel). The purpose of the PTS currently is to give feedback on whether the endgame experience feels like the class in question and to test out the functionality of the new ABC skill choosing system. We are not supposed to be levelling a character 1-75 through normal means. If trainers weren't disabled, you would gain abilities as normal.

[Iymurra]

As I said in another thread, I'm pretty sure trainers have been disabled because we are not meant to be testing the levelling experience. In the getting started on x on the PTS thread (in this case operative and sniper), Jackie gave specific instructions when making a new character:

 

Trainers are absolutely disabled. Normal leveling progression is not what the pts is testing.

 

But that being said, I do not believe that we should ignore the leveling pattern introduced by the new trees.

The new UI clearly spells out when we get new actives and passives (discipline specific ones at least) and we should be looking at things in the UI such as when we get energy management in the spec.

Or defensives.

Or passives which affect abilities we don't get yet (i.e. stim boost passive at level 1 for concealment)

[ViShAsh]

Dear SWTOR team,

 

I was able to play around with all 3 Operative specs. Before I jump into some details, I would like to thank you on providing the look on the ability trees and to have an option to see the choices and pick between them. Despite repetitive icons, the tooltips were somewhat easy to understand.

 

Medicine Operative:

 

Overall a very pleasing experience. I absolutely love the choices that you can make early on in the tree: you can either improve your AoE healing capabilities or have access to generating more tactical advantages. Some other choices included a more passive stuff with increasing healing per stack of tactical advantage or just to have a burst healing via stim boost. If you intend to make the playstyle more customizable, then I commend you. Very pleasing experience of Medicine Operative.

 

Concealment Operative

 

It felt a lot like it is currently on live, but I still want to make some points for the available choices. Some choices are immensely powerful: like the one that reduces the cooldown on stim boost every time you use Laceration. Since this is the primary skill that you should be using anyway, having it paired with stim boost will make you a stabbing machine. Very fun to play! Some other choices were a little bit harder to use, like the one that makes your critical attack to reduce Stim boost cooldown by 2 second and it can stack up to 5 times I think. Its duration is very small, and it is a bit hard to use it effectively. To finalize, very enjoyable experience with Concealment Operative.

 

Lethality Operative

 

I don't have a lot of things to say about it, it is a little bit harder to kill stuff using DoTs when they're dying pretty fast anyway, so I couldn't check its full potential. But to get into the gist of it: it feels a lot like it is currently on live. It seems that the first few choices are pretty good, but like I said I couldn't check its full potential due to lack of Elite mobs.

 

For all 3 specs: I think I can see how you guys are implementing some threat reduction into defensive cooldowns. I am curious if you intend to do that for all other classes. It also suggests that you might change the way how tanks generate threat, but we will have to see I guess. Some choices are situational of course, but other than that I think you guys did a great job. I am assuming that abilities that were missing, were not to be tested.

 

Thank you and let us see where it leads!

[Carba]

As of a few minutes ago, Sleep Dart is in the Ability List but not the Ability Tree, while Debilitate is in the Ability Tree but not the ability List. As a practical matter, Sleep Dart can be assigned to a quick bar and a key, while Debilitate cannot.

[JLazarillo]

I jumped on to actually play a little and not just preview. In general, it went about how I was expecting based on said previewing, though, I think.

 

Losing Overload Shot hurts quite a lot and particularly makes soloing with Medicine very close to completely infeasible. Even with my companion on DPS, taking out groups that were even so much as a single silver with a couple standard enemies was surprisingly time-consuming. Lethality was not as bad, and unsurprisingly, did fine without against beefier foes, but was kind of at a loss against groups of standard enemies. It did not seem so bad on Concealment where there are several additional moves that can finish standard enemies quickly, but for sake of the other two specs, I continue to implore for the reinstatement of Overload Shot.

 

Similarly, loss of the cleanse on Cloaking Screen reduces its usefulness in a drastic sort of way. I was mistaken about Evasion also losing it (I forgot where in abilities that was unlocked in the first place), but Cloaking Screen does indeed stick you right back in combat if you've got a DoT on you (and then breaks your re-stealth), making it ineffective at breaking clear of enemies.

 

At the very minimum, a utility to fully cleanse when using Cloaking Screen needs to be included. Incorporating it naturally into the skill would be better, of course, but the alternative is something that could be settled for in a pinch.

 

Those two issues, honestly, were even bigger than losing Sleep Dart for me, and though I'm certainly glad it's back, they still remain the big oversights, I think. So with that in mind:

 

• Do the abilities available make this experience feel like you are playing an Operative? Please explain why or why not.
  

I'm gonna have to say no. Close, but not quite. An Operative should be getting in, and getting out, quick. While the overall playstyle is very reminiscent of what I am used to from the current live experience (and over the last, what, like eight years, at that!), the removed attack and utility also remove a big part of the tactical feel of picking my battles and getting the drop on enemies (Or getting the heck out if it's a failure! Tactical retreat is still tactical, right?).

 

Or, to borrow from the description of the Operative's mirror class, the Scoundrel:

everything they need to knock to get in, knock the enemy for a loop and get out alive

I don't feel like I'm "knocking the enemy for a loop" here.

Edited August 27, 2021 by JLazarillo

[DarthZeroe]

To me what makes Operative feel like an Operative is their stealthing abilities and versatility in fights. Right now the PTS version captures most of it, but falls short of the live version imo.

 

A) Sleep Dart and Debilitate should really be kept as base abilities because they're important for the CC'ing ability of the class. Sapping enemies is what makes stealthers handy for getting through some of the repeatable content faster (Edit: apparently sleep dart wasn't removed).

 

Debilitate is available but has to be chosen over some passives. And to be honest it feels like an uneven choice, because having a stun is useful in so many situations that it's almost a no-brainer to pick it, but the passive you're picking it over would've been nice to have as well.

 

Same thing goes for the level 35 line, you're given two passives and Tactical Overdrive - which would take priority over the other two since it resets some important abilities for your spec.

 

B) Having to choose Infiltrate, Flash Bang, or Holotraverse over the other is not something I'm crazy about either. But it's livable since their uses are more situational.

 

C) I like how the TAs flow for Concealment spec, there's a variant of Crippling Slice that basically combines the ability with Sever Tendon and generates an extra TA. It felt more smooth than how TA generation works live, although if you run Tactician it isn't needed as much.

Edited September 8, 2021 by DarthZeroe

[Alithia]

Question for the LEthality Ops; How many hotkeys do I free up, and are any rotational DPS abilities pruned?

[omaan]

With PTS now live, you can help test the Operative Combat Style.

 

Please answer the following questions:

• Do the abilities available make this experience feel like you are playing an Operative? Please explain why or why not.
  
• Is the ability tree easy to understand?
  
• If you have feedback on the different disciplines, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.
  

When providing feedback, be as detailed as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking.

 

If you have feedback about the Sniper Combat Style, please post it here.

 

Thank you!

 

Everything feels ok for concealment EXCEPT for flashbang, holotraverse and debilitator. These three are MUST-HAVE for concealment because it's a close-up, burst spec which compared to lethality can't do any damage with throwing dots from distance, that's why debilitator and holotraverse is MUST-HAVE for concealment. Flashbang is also needed because burst specs should have a control ability in order to manage their burst while controling enemy healer/tank or npc which can protect. WIthout flashbang operative's burst might become useless due to interruptions from other players/npc.

 

Relating overload shot and Noxious Knives - great idea to remove these. I never understood why concealment still have them. THere are situations where you can use overload shot instead of lacerete or backstab (when enemy has some kind of immunity to knife attacks) but in most situations these two abilities are useless.

Sever Tendon - well this is a good ability which is needed for concealment since it doesn't have enough slow effects to stop his targets from fleeing while performing its burst. So i think it should stay.

Frag Grenade - this should be viable for lethality mostly but not for concealment which is strongly focused on close-up fights and burst windows. This ability can be removed.

Crippling Slice - i think is very important for concealment operative and must-have since this ability allows operative to control its target while bursting. So i guess without debilitator and crippling slice concealment can't exist.

Countermeasures whith root cleansing effect is also must have, otherwise as i mentioned before concealment will be rooted/stunned much to be able to remain close to its target. It definitely needs some root/slow cleansing effects

[Crystal_Mind]

The Ability Tree:

I can follow it, but there are passives and abilities that are not shown, and the icons are very small. Can't dump on it too much, though, because it's very obviously WIP, and it does serve its purpose for this test cycle.

 

General Operative Feedback:

--I am surprisingly okay with losing my raid buff.

--Overload shot is gone… that’s fine for DPS, I suppose. It destroys what little off-dps I had as a healer, but whatever.

--I had a whole write-up on why losing Sleep Dart was not okay, but you fixed that, so we’re cool.

 

MEDICINE

This feels good with one exception: no curative agent-type skill. On live, I always take that utility point because:

 

1.) It allows me to quickly drop two probes on someone, and

2.) It makes Kolto infusion a Burst+HoT, differentiating it from Kolto Injection.

 

Both aspects play into Medicine’s identity as the HoTs and AoE healer. Given the overall theme of the changes, I can understand stripping this off the DPS specs. But please reconsider this for the Medicine discipline. It doesn’t need to be tied to evasion/deTaunt, but give us something? Or just make Kolto Injection a baseline HoT for Medicine?

 

That aside, Medicine looks good to my eyes. Someone else in this thread said purge was missing from Evasion, but I went looking for mobs that would throw cleansable debuffs on me and it does seem to work. So… I’m content that it’s intended to remain. Overall, I look forward to continuing to play this spec in 7.0.

[Aethyriel]

Am I missing something or is Nanotech Suit actually gone? Is there a standard 30% ae damage reduction now or does the operative - the squishiest of all classes - getting more squishy for no reason whatsoever? Why exactly would I take an (concealment) operative to a NIM ops when I can have a class doing the same DPS with better AOE damage and a lot more survivability or more DPS for getting hit as hard (like a PT - changes pending).

 

Why would you also make the threat dump optional and then also put it on the only defensive cooldown worth a damn for the class? Though in terms of style, it would make sense for the operative to have the least issues with threat management. And for that reason you could expand on the stealth mechanic which right now is only there with Cloak and the standard stealth. Feels a bit weird that the class has nothing worth going into stealth for or can't readily re-enter a sort of pseudo-stealth in combat (which doesn't remove you from combat unlike cloak) to use a stealth only ability (like a long lasting dot for example to replace the Corrosive Dart skill which thematically doesn't fit Concealment at all). Could also find a way to put cloak and stealth on the same button to save a keybind/slot.

 

A really good change is turning Crippling Slice and Sever Tendon into one ability with all the functionality you'd want from it. Another great change is active reduction of Stim Boost to be used more frequently as it rewards good play with even more damage.

Speaking of long cooldowns - and what I generally don't understand about the design philosophy:

 

Why not remove those? A 3 minute - read maybe use it 2-3 times in a long ops fight - cooldown that removes the CD of skills with CDs that are already pretty low? That is convoluted nonsense. There is a skill on the bar you press twice a fight, meaning it's a keybind you have to have which you only use very rarely. Just remove it. The active cooldown reduction of skills is way more fun and engaging.

 

At the same time, some skills need a lower cooldown like Holotraverse. It works like a typical 'charge' or 'leap' yet it has an absurdly long cooldown. That goes counter to the design of removing Overload Shot. If you remove a range DMG option, then you need the gap closer to be much more readily available. I don't see any sort of issue with a 20 sec cooldown. Even in PVP, this just makes the operative work like any other melee class that closes gaps more often.

 

I also think Infiltrate should be a baseline utility for operatives. It's a short group stealth. Seriously. It's just a fun ability, it's not an utility. It's all flavour and no impact. Who would ever waste an actual point into it?

 

As for balancing classes - the concealment operative needs better ae dmg. Noxious Knives with Toxic Haze is just not even worth it over just continuing single target damage. I'd look into possibilities to spread some effects like Acid Blade or Corrosive Dart at least and reduce the cost of the Knives to not mess up your energy for puny damage. It's just extremely underwhelming.

 

As it stands now, I just don't see a reason to take an operative with the negative baseline of a melee class in current ops over any other melee and especially ranged DPS class (pending changes). Operative doesn't even get a short CD interrupt and has to play with the 18 seconds of ranged classes. That's just sad.

 

But here goes for every individual choice:

 

level 15: I can take a massive DPS boost, a pointless slow or a 9% dmg reduction which still puts me 20% below anyone else. I'll take the DPS. Obviously. Not even considering anything else for PVE.

 

level 20: Threat dump for PVE, pointless AE dmg which is too low still or a stun for PVP. The choice is obvious. There's just a crap choice, a PVE one and a PVP one (or solo play). debilitate should be baseline. This is stupid.

 

level 30: getting a TA on range and for basically free of energy cost is a must have in PVE for energy management. 20% dmg reduction still not even close to catching up to other classes who get 30% ae dmg reduce which is what you get hit with most of the time. And it's only 6 seconds on a 15 sec CD skill? What in the what? And really? One guaranteed crit every 15 seconds? Why? What is the purpose? You lose damage using the skill to increase your already high crit chance a bit more? This is pointless.

 

level 35: You get an active CD reduce that will probably give you way more stim boosts than the 3 min CD resetting the CD of SB once. Then you again try some crap with ONE guaranteed crit for one attack after stealth? Why?

 

level 50: The stealth should be baseline, same for the movement speed, just a part of the class flavour. The dmg reduce is the only thing worth a damn here anyway. The Stealth offers too little (don't talk about stealth rezz in NIM, wasting 10 seconds 30 seconds earlier at times. That's just silly). Maybe interesting for PVP, so you can cloak out of being squashed in seconds more often?

 

level 60: Escape Plan? Really? We lose Infiltrate but keep the CD reduction. The 5 seconds on the SP are a joke, the Escape stuff is also barely worth it. Evasion CD reduce when being attacked ... okay, the energy from the AP probably isn't even necessary for Concealment. When would you ever drop that low outside of maybe AE situations where you don't even AE because the ops group made you log on your PT because you're pointless in AE situations.

 

lv 70: You take Holotraverse. Should be baseline. This is a pretty dumb choice.

 

level 80: Med Shield is total crap, Jarring Strike and Blow for Blow aren't any better. This is the max level choice and NOT having any of them makes zero difference. That's questionable design. I expected something 'game changing' here.

 

It's really not great outside of the Crippling Slice and active CD Stim boost changes which are really well done.

[Masked_Phantom]

Concealment seems to be in a real good spot for 7.0 damage wise (probably too good) and defensively avg (still had immunity roll and getting some new damage reduction passives)

 

Lethality build is looking very similar to current patch leth, other than the corrosive assault options. Every other spec (jug n mara n others) are looking to have very big dmg buffs, so I'm not too sure leth is going to match up dmg wise to rest, unless this was intended for this melee dot spec.

 

Continuing for leth, defensively its pretty much dead on arrival. Unlike concealment, which has immunity roll (on GCD) and laceration DR utility (off GCD), lethality has nearly nothing off GCD. Especially with AOE DR removed from operative in general, I can't really see lethality being very raid viable. Currently, classes that already lack AOE DR are disliked in raiding, and with the removal of Revitalizers, the only off GCD defensives are really shield probe and evasion, which is looking real grim for PVE.

 

To sum it up, in PVE lethality will only have shield probe and evasion (very niche situations) off GCD defensives, unless its expected to actually self heal rather than do dmg in a raid setting, so while the removal of AOE DR is acceptable, at least give Revitalizers to lethality ops exclusively so that they got some survivability. In PVP, operative's greatest weakness is already the lack of reactive defensives to big amounts of burst, especially for stun situations, so the lack of revitalizers is going to make lethality operative a very fragile spec in pvp, and is also rather difficult in solo que cause of the burst meta. Lethality has both glaring weaknesses in PVP and PVE atm, and can't really tell the design goal of lethality for 7.0. Looks like pyro pt, but without the giga dmg and weaker passive defense, just overall unfortunate.

 

TLDR; reconsider Revitalizers for exclusively lethality ops, or some kind of passive defense for lethality. Med looks unchanged, and Concealment is getting some passive DR, still has roll immunity, and top tier dmg.

[Masked_Phantom]

Even Med Shield being, a 5% heal, is being put up against evasion reflect. PVE wise, where you can't afford to use GCDs for survival (otherwise you would take literally any other class that has better passive dcds + aoe dr + team utility) this seems real extreme, unless devs are trying to really raise the skill cap of lethality operative or operative specs in general.

[Kahz]

So far loving the changes, so much easier to switch between the three specs, however I have a bit of feedback to share.

Obviously being the PTS this is likely just a design implementation that is merely missing but if it is not then, when you switch between the difference specs the ui does not remember your ability placements, i.e if I have holotraverse on the side bar along the left of my screen and have an ability that is spec specific keybound to 6 for example, when one switches to Lethality and back to Medicine all the specs specific abilities just reset to default.

 

I hope this was not too convoluted. Otherwise outstanding job on 7.0 so far.

[Jerba]

Having taken a brief look at the Operative healer, I'm pretty happy with the changes, from the perspective of a VM/MM raider. The meta will change, obviously, but players will adapt and the class still is playable.

The rotation feels just like on the live servers, with the bonus that players can now use the skill tree to emphasize a more AoE or burst healing approach depending on personal preference and boss fight.

I'm sad that the knockback on Overload Shot got removed; this was a great utility whenever no other player was available for knockback and for energy regeneration but this is not a deal breaker.

Overall, outside of some bug fixes and balancing passes, I hope that the skill tree will stay in the current form and won't get major revisions till 8.0 release.

 

I'm somewhat concerned that in the skill tree, the leftmost ability is picked by default. There will be many casual players who will never change their skills, so IMO it would be better for the game to pick a random skill automatically so that there will be more variety among the playerbase. More experienced MMO players can then still pick their favorite skill as needed.

Other than that, I like that you can currently switch out a single skill without resetting the whole tree.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Jerba

[Arikon-]

First it would be nice to have an official announcement of the primary goal of all these changes. I've heard people saying Bioware wants to lessen CC, prune ability bloat and make the game generally more accessible to a newer player. So I will just assume that is the main reason for now. I do not believe any of these changes accomplishes any of that. I've been playing Operative since launch and played mostly Concealment in Reg 8v8s, Solo Ranked and Ranked 4s. Here are some of my thoughts mostly based around Concealment Operative.

 

Do the abilities available make this experience feel like you are playing an Operative?

Yes, sort of. It FEELS like I'm playing Operative with less abilities to me since I already KNOW how to play Operative. The problem I have with the new window and ability tree is its general readability.

 

Currently in the live game, the "Combat Proficiencies" window shows a very CLEAR and concise path of abilities, passives and utility points you earn as you level. Generally you earn one of these every 2ish levels. For a newer player with no idea how the class is played this window provides an easy way to read how your class plays out as you progress down the tree.

 

The new "Combat Styles" window is worse. Here you only gain a new ability or passive every 5 levels for most tiers which is fine but excludes some of the passives shown in the old window. Do we still have Scouting, Meticulously Kept Blades, Enhanced Chemicals, Revealing Strikes? Granted these are all just stat boosts but if they ARE still active they need to be shown somewhere. One passive that is missing that is far more important to the rotation of the class is Collateral Strike. We still do have it and there's abilities mentioning how it works with other passives but there's no description anywhere on how Collateral Strike even works or when its earned.

 

All abilities being shown now on the "Abilities List" is an actual improvement since you don't have to go through both Operative and Concealment tabs to find all your abilities and possibly miss one.

 

 

 

**Missing Abilities**

Overload Shot: I'm not too sad about missing this one since I always viewed it as a filler used by inexperienced players that didn't understand it wasn't core to the playstyle. Although it did fill a purpose for being one of your only Ranged White damage attacks that can hit through a defensive like Assassin Force Cloak. I also hear it was one of the only fillers a Medicine Operative could use when not having to heal but since I don't have much experience on Medicine I cant really comment on that.

 

Counter Measures: Bad change. Pretty much our only replacement for our old pre 3.0 ability Sneak that can grant us a movement speed boost and a root purge. I understand those functions are being added to Evasion but having one ability be the "omni ability" that does everything is not a good gameplay. This also goes for PvE since it was our main threat drop. Return this ability Baseline.

 

Sever Tendon: Our only ranged slow. Not too worried about missing this one as long as we can get another ranged slow option.

 

Tactical Superiority: Another I'm not worried about missing since it would eat one of our TAs but I did like the group oriented mindset this ability brought.

 

Evasion Purge: I haven't been able to test this but the tooltip for Evasion no longer states it purges debuffs like DoTs. If true bad change again. Being able to purge DoTs is a CORE gameplay feature of an Operative especially in PvP and must be returned.

 

Cloaking Screen Purge Util: Again similar to the Evasion purge change there's no option to receive this again. Should be baked passively into Cloaking Screen. Again another CORE aspect of Operative gameplay.

 

Holotraverse, Debilitate, Flashbang and Tactical Overdrive: Debilitate and Flashbang should be BASELINE. Absolute CORE to Operative since the very first day. Arguments can be made for Holotraverse and Tactical Overdrive. I will elaborate below.

 

 

**Concealment Ability Tree**

 

Level 1

- Waylay - Somehow one of the only passives from the old window that made it into the new one. If this one exists

the other passives mentioned at the start should also be listed somewhere.

 

Level 10

- Laceration - Simple enough. Our main filler.

- Crit Simulants - New interesting addition to Stim Boost

 

Level 15

- D Stance, Roll Knife, Relentless Blades - Seems like a fun new choice although Roll Knife will most likely be an

auto lock on this tier

 

Level 20

- Debilitate - Must be baseline otherwise this is a dead talent row. Inexperienced players that already don't use Debilitate will now have another reason to never use it since they technically don't even have to pick it.

- Nox Knives - Terrible ability with an equally terrible choice here.

- Quick Counter - Old Countermeasures with old Utilities but tied with Evasion. Bad gameplay design again.

Separate these mechanics back to Countermeasures.

- Tactical Op (Passive) - First time mention of Collateral Strike ever. No previous mention of how Collateral Strike even works.

 

Level 25

- Crip Slice - Business as usual

 

Level 30

- Crip Throw - Replacement for Sever Tendon. Interesting new ability but will probably never be chosen.

- Best Defense and Crip Wounds - Another choice that seems interesting on the surface but Crip Wounds will be

the auto lock in on this tier

Culling (Passive) - Business as usual

 

Level 35

- Tactical Crit - Probably one of the more interesting gameplay choices here

- Tactical Overdrive - In its ORIGINAL unnerfed version with the Backstab reset makes this a very interesting

choice to consider over Tactical Crit.

- Advanced Stealth - Interesting wording here. Don't fully understand how it works but I admire the originality

- Talent Row Note - Tactical Crit and Tactical Overdrive make this the first interesting tier that has you make a

meaningful choice between an obvious tier theme of resetting offensive cooldowns. Advanced Stealth

seems interesting as a defensive choice but doesn't fit the same theme as the other two choices. Perhaps move

Advance Stealth to another tier with other defensive options and replace it with a new passive similar in concept

to Tactical Crit and Tactical Overdrive.

 

Level 40

- Vol Sub & Acid Blade (Passive) - Business as usual

 

Level 50

- Infil, Advanced Cloaking, Chem Inlay - Pretty mundane choices here where Chem Inlay will probably be chosen

in most higher endgame content. Not being able to pick both Infil and Adv Cloaking to be a total stealth style build

will take away from some people that enjoy that style of gameplay though.

- Prey on the Weak (Passive) - Business as usual

 

Level 60

- Evasive Imperative, Escape Plan and Endorphin Rush - Another absolute mundane tier row with Evasive

Imperative being the only proper choice for PvP. Endorphin Rush promotes bad energy management and less

defensive options. If it MUST stay just bake it into Adrenaline probe baseline. Escape Plan is alright I guess but

again just a very boring talent.

- Shadow Operative Elite (Passive) - Core to Concealment playstyle. Would only like to see this sooner in the

progression. Besides that business as usual.

 

Level 70

Very odd tier row. Flashbang must be baseline again. Referring back to my Debilitate section, having Flashbang

as a CHOICE promotes bad gameplay choices. An inexperienced Operative does not realize the importance of

Flashbang and even has a choice to NEVER use it now. Bad gameplay design here.

- Holotraverse - I'd be alright with this being a talent choice IF it was up against 2 other gap closing/movement

based choices. Having it compete with one of the most powerful CCs in the game makes no sense. Needs to be

baseline or given a new tier to compete in.

- Infiltrate - A very unique and fun ability to Operative. Will never be chosen against Flashbang ever besides

maybe some trash skips in PvE. And if you can freely choose between any of these talents at anytime then

having it as a talent makes no sense since it can be picked JUST for the trash skips then swapped back. I don't

know about this one. Probably just make it baseline again.

Revealing Weakness (Passive) - Business as usual

 

Level 80

This has to be by FAR the most boring and uninspired talent row. Blow for Blow is the only interesting and useful

talent on this tier. Nobody is excited to get to level 80 so they can get a 5% heal on their probe or be able to

knock down weak NPCs its almost laughable. Remove Jarring Strike (Or make at least the NPC knock down

baseline) and remove Med Shield and add NEW inspired passives that would make you want to level an

Operative.

- Calculated Frenzy (Passive) - Business as usual

 

 

 

Final thoughts:

 

I just don't really understand the purpose all these UI changes just to remove abilities we already had or give us some new passives that could be fun. Gameplay wise you can probably make all these changes with the existing "Combat Proficiencies" window with just some slight changes to the Utilities side. This is all excluding the fact the new window looks very amateurish compared to the old window. And yes I know I see the giant PINK WIP at the top.

 

After reading the changes to other classes I feel Operative is probably the best off. With a few changes and abilities re-added to baseline I think we'll be fine. As it stands right now, a lot of these talent rows seem to be filled out with random abilities just for the sake of filling out a talent tree

 

These changes are very reminiscent to the post Cataclysm talent changes in World of Warcraft where every 15 or so levels you choose 1 of 3 talents for your class. The only difference is that the WoW talent system usually keeps a theme per talent row. For example having a talent row for, AOE, Defense and Movement. Usually the final talent row is full of exciting abilities that makes you want to try them. Like Rogue having an ability that makes you dash around enemies attacking them from the shadows but an Operative gets a 5% heal.