Jedi Guardian on the PTS!

[aeterno]

I get it that the ability bloat has to be addressed...

 

but in that context keeping slash, that's the dictionary definition of garbagio ability, that doesn't see any use past the early game or complete bottom tier last resort filler, while forcing choice between saber reflect, a staple defensive utility, and blade blitz, a stable movement skill, is frankly put perplexing.

 

If you're doing this get rid of useless abilities or better yet, follow the suggestion someone posted a thread about to roll abilities together.

Edited July 10, 2021 by aeterno

[Giliodor]

I haven't posted on these forums in a very long time. I just want to make sure that I've made my voice heard regarding ability pruning. This is a terrible idea, and if implemented as stated in the original post (which indicates their intention is, in fact, to prune down the number of abilities), it will drive me away from SWTOR. Please do not do this.

 

Giving us a choice between passive effects, sure. But don't make us choose between abilities. Give us all of our old abilities. Players don't like it when you take away parts of their character.

 

To be clear - this means that abilities shouldn't even be part of these choices at all. Not even 2 passives or 1 ability. Just let us keep our abilities, as we've known them for years.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Giliodor

[Alekerro]

First they changed skills tree, then fully disabled it (because of casuals). Afterwards they "casualed" stats and more and more. And now it seems like they going to casual it to the ground (like WoW or TESO).

Whatever...just give my sith assassin a one-handed lightsaber and go on ruining what have been workin for ages.

[MordredSJT]

I also want to make my opinion heard here, though I doubt it will have any impact on actual decisions made by the developers.

 

I have been a subscriber since launch with one real break around RotHC. I haven't been playing much the past year, but always keep my subscription active. The initial announcement of the new expansion and the features announced got me reinvigorated and I have jumped back into the game this past week and been enjoying rolling another new character (Defense Guardian).

 

I am now seriously doubting that I will keep playing when 7.0 goes live, and am not planning on renewing my subscription if this class revamp is the actual plan.

 

If you want to prune things and get rid of useless skills, then go ahead. Do NOT take away functionality and skill combinations that have become essential to our roles in the game, or expected as quality of life enhancers for us. The way this is currently structured makes the passives I usually select for PVE through utilities absolutely impossible, and if I take what I actually enjoy I will be gimping myself as a tank (mobility enhancers vs. damage mitigation).

 

This does not look fun. This will not make me feel like a powerful Jedi. This will make me feel like a lesser version of what I've been for some time now in game. I'm not paying you to ruin my Jedi power fantasy.

 

Edit: If your hope is that this will somehow bring in and retain more new players in order to make up for all the long time veteran, loyal subscribers you drive away...then may the force be with you. I won't.

Edited July 10, 2021 by MordredSJT

[Stookydroid]

please for god's sake just don't do this.

just don't touch the classes at all, leave them the way they are. SWTOR has by far the best classes out of any MMO on the market, don't throw that away. This IS what makes SWTOR good, the classes feel complete and there are (fairly) complex rotations, as well as varied defensive cooldowns and utility options.

"STREAMLINING" DOES NOT HELP ANYONE. THIS IS REMOVING 10 YEARS WORTH OF WORK IN PERFECTING THESE CLASSES.

what you are doing here is you are removing all the classes in the game, and replacing them with completely different ones. No one asked for this change.

Please reconsider this entire system. Just leave it at "you can play sith sorcerer when you do the warrior story" or something like that, don't change the classes from the ground up, they will never be as good again, especially with 1/3 of the abilities.

This is fundamentally a horrible idea, probably the worst one that has existed in this game, even worse than galactic command. Please stop.

[LordAndrewcz]

I will be blunt,

Your interpretation of "giving more choice" by stripping all abilities we had before and THEN giving us the "choice" to get just roughly 1/3 of them is a lie, not a choice. I believe some players left WoW for this exact thing you are trying to pull off - when their class identity was shattered with the removal of most of the utility class abilities. Only the core "rotation" remained.

 

Don't do this. Do you want feedback? I play this to have fun and to have fun; I want as many choices as possible. This change removes most of them and forces me to play core rotation as in WoW.

 

And as I read this thread, I'm not alone. Which is good; I don't want a WoW clone with SW skin.

 

So, I will summarize it like this:

1) keep the choice to switch between advanced classes withing force and tech restrains (+light dark force)

2) BUT this switch will be just like the regular advanced class, you will get all their abilities, no "choice" between them

 

TL;DR: decouple the story from advanced class, don't prune the advanced classes

How does this change make you feel:

[Avallona]

I agree, I hope it gets reworked and changed, I do not want to choose between my abilities.I also do not want to lose my pvp/pve utilities. Edited July 10, 2021 by Avallona

[dreckwurst]

The removal of the Skilltree wasn't that necessary as well imo,

They replaced it and we still have broken classes. (Skanktank, Heal ops with highest damage burst in game etc.)

 

WoW Classic was still a success and there is an Audience for that.

Now they return it with the new Conduit System because Blizzard realized it was a bad idea to remove the Skilltree in the first place.

They removed PVP Damage Scaling as well. Because Blizzard realized it was a bad idea as well.

 

Now we probably get 3 Button Classes for PVE and PVP so every Brainless Fortnite kiddy can play it lol.

 

I hope this will be not the case because diversity is good.

[LordCamTheGreat]

I've done some brief testing of every dps build and here are my thoughts on each. I tank extremely rarely so I'm not the best to make comments about it (though they appear to keep more dcds than both dps specs).

 

 

Focus A (my favourite so far)

 

Base dummy parse rotation is nearly exactly the same and is actually easier to perform as you get more focus since force damage builds it. In fact the excess focus you build makes tacticals such as Syn's Second Amulet (riposte resets concentrated slice cd) worth running.

Losing dispatch hurts in the execute phase, especially as with the A option currently, you have a very large amount of excess focus.

 

In standard combat, dealing damage and building focus feels easier so in this sense, Focus's silhouette feels the same.

However, losing saber throw hurts when engaging targets and only having half my dcds and no aoe stun makes me feel less like a brawly fighter and more like a glass cannon.

 

 

Focus B

 

Base dummy parse rotation is the same as Focus A but less of a focus safety net as you don't build as much focus.

Again, losing dispatch hurts and I keep trying to use my saber throw to start fights or hit targets that are outside melee range only to remember it's not there.

Not having blade blitz, the reduced force charge cooldown or any movement speed increase really hurts mobility to the point where you're just running at targets for several seconds.

Even though this choice has saber reflect, not having enure, blade blitz and awe also really hurts in solo content.

Also for some reason you have a passive that reduces the cooldown of focused defence by 30 seconds, but you don't actually get that ability.

 

 

Vigilance A

 

Dummy parse rotation feels the same - more so perhaps than focus as whirling blade replaces the dispatch that the other spec no longer gets - but, no saber throw to build focus hurts a lot.

Once again, losing saber throw sucks.

Also not having access to focused defence is really punishing - it is an amazing dcd and is sorely missed in solo content (and would be in pvp too).

 

Again, no awe is punishing and losing both dcds and mobility through blade blitz with no compensation makes the class feel like it's missing something.

 

 

Vigilance B

 

Dummy parse rotation feels the same as A, mostly same as on live but no saber throw.

The lack of dcds is even more noticeable on this progression path, you get one. Saber ward. That is it. No enure, no focused defence, no saber reflect. You die so easily and there is nothing to make up for it.

 

Losing dcds in exchange for much higher mobility and utility would make sense, but here you just flat out lose everything apart from gaining blade blitz back.

 

 

 

Overall, these changes feel like they would be good ONLY and I repeat ONLY in pvp.

If these went through to live solely in pvp, mobility and invincibility creep would be gone.

That being said, losing so much utility and mobility and survivability in one go removes a lot of opportunity for skill expression and counterplay and feels like the game is reverting back to when we were level 50 with none of the new cool abilities.

(That's without even mentioning the loss of so many core pre-expansion abilities such as enure, awe, focused defence and poor saber throw)

 

In pve, it feels like a poor man's guardian. You're more of a glass cannon than ever with none of the utility and half the survivability (even less with vigilance) of a real guardian.

Saber throw is such a core ability to the guardian's aesthetic and identity, same with focused defence, that losing them really does make me feel like this isn't the guardian I know outside of dummy parsing.

 

Essentially, reiterating my previous posts, don't remove abilities in pve. Choosing between passives is a lot of fun and I really like the whole offensive vs defensive vs utility idea behind passives, but not when you're forced to give up so many abilities.

Losing certain mobility and survivability abilities is ok only in pvp as it prevents things like the current commando/mercenary from zipping around the map while being functionally immortal.

Losing those features in pve results in a frankly shallow experience, it's like building a solid wall over the course of 10 years only to knock down the upper half just for the sake of it.

 

More choice = good.

More choice at the cost of massively diluting classes = bad. This isn't a mobile game and we don't want it to become one.

 

I may sound frustrated but it's because I do genuinely want this game to be the best it possibly can be and I appreciate the devs trying something new. There are redeeming qualities and I think that focusing (hah focus pun) on those (passive choices) is the way forward.

Edited July 10, 2021 by LordCamTheGreat

[Elracor]

I get it that the ability bloat has to be addressed...

 

but in that context keeping slash, that's the dictionary definition of garbagio ability, that doesn't see any use past the early game or complete bottom tier last resort filler, while forcing choice between saber reflect, a staple defensive utility, and blade blitz, a stable movement skill, is frankly put perplexing.

 

If you're doing this get rid of useless abilities or better yet, follow the suggestion someone posted a thread about to roll abilities together.

 

100% agree on this one. Slash should be the first on the chopping block - and the fact that is Bioware clearly don't agree is worrisome.

[TheKaterina]

I feel like this is too big of a change to the core system not to give my two cents as well.

 

When the combat style update was announced me like so many others were extremely excited at the possibilities. It sounded like we'd have more choice. I was already excited to give my sith warrior dual-lightsabers now that I regretted picking juggernaut but had already gone too far in the story, and I was pumped with the idea that my main Jedi Knight Guardian would perhaps be able to force choke now to fit into the 'corruption' roleplaying I've been doing while playing the story. It sounded amazing, a breath of fresh air to the game and a reward for existing players.

 

But I thought you'd make it so you'd either just switch between the styles, whole package of existing abilities included with your weapon choice AND/OR (and this would have been the ideal for me), you'd make us have the choice for replacing compatible/mirror abilities (a reversible process like the combat proficiency system), like for example replacing force stasis with force choke if you have the alignment requirements.

 

But stripping down the existing classes even if you don't want to take part in this system?? Why? What does that achieve except force players enjoying their characters FOR YEARS to suddenly not have access to a bunch of their abilities, especially end-game abilities?

 

I am so worried that even though it's just in the PTS phase now, you still won't listen to the overwhelmingly negative (but constructive) feedback people are giving you explaining how this is a bad idea and you've worked a lot on it already to scrap it.

 

This will NOT bring in new players if that is your hope, ESPECIALLY by removing end-game abilities that only appear for players that have been leveling up to max level, as the new player won't even see these changes until they are familiar with the game anyway. REMOVING abilities helps nothing, not even the casual players that you perhaps want to attract. It will not work, you will only lose faithful subscribers that have been attached to their characters for years and perhaps even close to a decade for a lot of them. It's the long-time subscribers that are the ones you should keep happy, not the ones that sub for once and leave.

 

I am extremely worried. Please don't take the choice away from the players.

Edited March 11, 2022 by TheKaterina

[thunder_saber]

With PTS now live, you can help test the Combat Style for the Jedi Guardian.

 

Please answer the following questions:

 

Does this feel like a Jedi Guardian? Please explain why or why not.

 

For Vigilance

This feels like a guardian who is basically naked. I main Vigilance/Vengeance Guardian/Jug. Defensive wise , I tried out pvp to see what’s the damage is like , but I died with in 20 seconds of leaping in, I used Both A and B. Enure lasted for like 10s and then I was killed, through saber ward . I had no Enrage Defense which was one of the BIGGEST defensive. 2nd Biggest was my Reflect which to was not there. Blad blitz was used and to survive and then I ran , my play style on guardian was “ I RAN and STILL DIED because I had NOTHING ELSE” .

 

For Focus , This felt slightly better. I do not main Focus guardian, but I do play it from time to time. Defensive wise I was able to survive a lot longer and kill people as well in pvp and I used B only because I need Enrage Defense and Saber Reflect which are my main Defensive's more than Enure and Blade Blitz.

 

Final thought : To choose 1 defensive over the other I will stop Playing guardian if this happens and pray that you devs have a brain behind that Skull and don’t do this.

Is there anything that feels missing or out of place in the combat rotation?

For Vigilance

Main abilities like saber throw, Blade Storm were missing. Hence the rotation was a bit off. How the **** does Riposte come in a Vigilance rotation that you have kept it ?

 

For Focus

Main abilities like saber throw, Blade Storm were missing. Hence the rotation was a bit off. And There is no Dispatch , why ?

 

What are your initial thoughts with the effectiveness of the Jedi Guardian against enemies?

For Vigilance

I died in 20 seconds in PVP , and for sure I Would die first in Operations now .

 

For Focus,

Better than Vigilance

 

How are you enjoying or not enjoying this class?

 

I absolutely HATE THIS. I Love Guardian and hence main it , BUT IF THIS HAPPENS I WILLS STOP PLAYING THIS CLASS PERIOD.

 

If you have feedback on the different disciplines and ability paths, please note your feedback accordingly so we can track it.

 

Feel free to answer in as much detail as possible to help us understand your thought process and line of thinking. Please include the specific Discipline and ability path you chose.

 

Thank you!

[Labranth]

If you cut the essential abilities from classes, I guarantee you will cut a significant percentage of existing player base as well. This is not an update, it’s a downgrade in all possible variations to PvE and PvP. By doing this you will not attract new players, you will only alienate the veterans and the game will eventually die. You advertised this new update as more variable gameplay for classes and more class story possibilities with various Base Class + Advanced Class combinations. What you have shown in PTS is just straight up trimming down of ESSENTIAL Guardian abilities which are necessary and can not be erased/limited in any way, and it will be absolutely detrimental for the game and for your "business model" per se if you will actually proceed with this changes on live servers. Listen to our feedback while it’s still not too late, because we know these characters inside and out, we didn’t have anything to do except for mastering them all these 10 years, so don’t take away the only thing that keeps veterans subbed, which is variability in skills.

What you try to do is straight up commercial suicide and no you won’t be a second WoW or ESO, SWTOR will simply cease to function.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Labranth

[LordMalekai]

I think there can be a balance. Classes like Fury Marauder suffer from button bloat, but classes like arsenal are fine.

[metwars]

at first I was ok with this. the idea of having a bit more choice to your abilities sounded pretty neat, and I thought it could add some nice variety, but the more I look at it the more it just doesn't sound appealing. there are too many core abilities that are being taken away and it doesn't even feel like playing the same class. if this is what you did to jedi guardian, I really hate what you might change to the marauder. Most of the classes are really fun to play as of today and I can't really imagine them being dumbed down with less abilities. the complexity of some of them is what makes it really fun. I loved the initial idea of combat styles. force users having access to all force advances class sounded great for customization and character creation, and honestly I think that should be the only thing that is added at this point. There might be one or two abilities that could be remove due to be unnecessary, but what you have currently on the pts is way too much.

[robwettengel]

We all need to remember that there are several flavors of content around here: PVP, class story PVE and then group content via FPs and Ops. For example, a Sorc going through their class story is not going to need Unlimited Power, but UP can certainly be useful in group content and PVP. My suggestion is this: permit or require the use of at least two loadouts: one for solo and one for group content (inc. PVP). UP would only be permitted in the designated group play load-out. This would aid in pruning group buff abilities for the single (and likely casual) player and taking away abilities they aren't even going to miss. Clicking upon the pvp queue button could trigger a new menu before choosing which queue to enter to establish a PVP loadout, and this is where those group centric powers (like UP and Phase Walk) would be made available at a certain level for the player to be able to use.

 

Abilities can be further pruned. The Devs likely have data detailing how many times Inquisitors make use of shock, how many times lightning Sorcs use Force Storm and how many times Assassins use stealth along with average and median duration for its usage and how often these powers are used in each variety of content. This data could be being looked at regarding what abilities are going to be pruned. Yet, a portion of players who use these abilities +1SD above the average are likely going to be upset by its removal. Will they be so upset that they will stop playing / unsub?

I cannot recall how often I used Consuming Darkness pre-4.0 but I cannot recall having ever clicked it once in the last few years on my main lightning Sorc. I have had no use for it in PVE or PVP. However, I have not played any of the new Ops so I cannot speak to its tactical utility in GFTM, etc. I would be in favor of its removal as an option to equip for solo and PVP players. The same goes for Phase Walk and Unlimited Power.

 

I have been playing mainly Sorcs for a decade now and feel I have an excellent grasp of the class. While I am a Legendary player, I mostly only played through the other classes just for the stories. Most of my FP and PVP playing is on my main sorc (followed by by healer Sorc and madness Sorc.) I <3 Sorcs.

[khamseen_air]

For example, a Sorc going through their class story is not going to need Unlimited Power, but UP can certainly be useful in group content and PVP. My suggestion is this: permit or require the use of at least two loadouts: one for solo and one for group content (inc. PVP). UP would only be permitted in the designated group play load-out.

 

Try running master mode chapters and tell me again how unlimited power is only needed in group content.

 

Edit: Though really we shouldn't start speculating about how badly they'll mess up the other classes in this thread until we see the lifeless husk they leave of the guardian at the end of this phase first.

Edited July 10, 2021 by khamseen_air

[BallisticKaine]

We all need to remember that there are several flavors of content around here: PVP, class story PVE and then group content via FPs and Ops. For example, a Sorc going through their class story is not going to need Unlimited Power, but UP can certainly be useful in group content and PVP. My suggestion is this: permit or require the use of at least two loadouts: one for solo and one for group content (inc. PVP). UP would only be permitted in the designated group play load-out. This would aid in pruning group buff abilities for the single (and likely casual) player and taking away abilities they aren't even going to miss. Clicking upon the pvp queue button could trigger a new menu before choosing which queue to enter to establish a PVP loadout, and this is where those group centric powers (like UP and Phase Walk) would be made available at a certain level for the player to be able to use.

 

Abilities can be further pruned. The Devs likely have data detailing how many times Inquisitors make use of shock, how many times lightning Sorcs use Force Storm and how many times Assassins use stealth along with average and median duration for its usage and how often these powers are used in each variety of content. This data could be being looked at regarding what abilities are going to be pruned. Yet, a portion of players who use these abilities +1SD above the average are likely going to be upset by its removal. Will they be so upset that they will stop playing / unsub?

I cannot recall how often I used Consuming Darkness pre-4.0 but I cannot recall having ever clicked it once in the last few years on my main lightning Sorc. I have had no use for it in PVE or PVP. However, I have not played any of the new Ops so I cannot speak to its tactical utility in GFTM, etc. I would be in favor of its removal as an option to equip for solo and PVP players. The same goes for Phase Walk and Unlimited Power.

 

I have been playing mainly Sorcs for a decade now and feel I have an excellent grasp of the class. While I am a Legendary player, I mostly only played through the other classes just for the stories. Most of my FP and PVP playing is on my main sorc (followed by by healer Sorc and madness Sorc.) I <3 Sorcs.

 

The problem is they are forcing Guardian/Juggernauts to choose out 3 KEY DEFENSIVE COOLDOWNS. Take Focused Defense, Saber Reflect, or Blade Blitz. Not pruning out some useless ability. I could understand pruning some useless abilities but not that. All 3 of those are key to all 3 spec survivability.

[Kaeyanya]

Did anyone see the stunbreaker, interrupt, combat focus and force clarity abilities? I seriously hope they do not plan on removing those for specific classes, because then I would be seriously upset. Besides, I'm also missing dispatch, which is an essential part of my rota and saber throw as my filler.

Also, the decision between blade blitz, enure and saber reflect is really hard. I did write ridiculous at first, until I realized that instead of the cds we now have a lot of new passives, that would give the guardion a major damage reduction boost. However, knowing when to use which cooldown, how to use them as offensive cds and so on is a major part of learning how to tank efficiently. Taking that away makes tanking much less challenging and is also kind of taking away almost everything that makes a good tank. You can learn how to build your gear, set your utilities and create your opener and prios from a guide. Knowing when to use which cooldown and how to maintain aggro are the two things that can not be learned from a guide and need to be actually experienced. So if we take that away, what difference will there be between a good tank and an amazing one? Why not instead remove some of the abilities that are actually not needed (e.g. cyclone slash for defense) instead to make it a bit simpler. Though I do not exactly understand why it is so important to make it simpler still... Considering how relatively easy learning the basics of each spec already is (if your're willing to put some work into it that is, and if you're not, don't play high-end content), making it even simpler will only take away from the class and reduce any difficulty that is also responsible for most of the fun in the game.

Additionally, do we really need to up the level cap and presumably the i-rating again? The only thing that will achieve is making low level content like veteran flashpoints even easier (and, sooner or later, making it possible for everyone to run vet fps solo, rendering the entire group concept useless), as well as making it even harder for low level chars to find a group that will actually take them. I mean, people already get kicked out of groups because they're too "low-level", do you honestly want to split the community even further and make any group content kind of an elitist thing that only advanced players (and subscribers, since f2p can only reach lvl 60) can take part in? If that is the plan, good luck getting anyone new to want to play the game... I would not have stuck around if it wasn't for the group content, as would many others. If new players are completely cut off from experiencing that, I doubt they will stick with the game.

This was a very long rant to basically say: Do not keep increasing level and i-rating, because that sucks. And please reconsider taking away all the difficulty from each class, because honestly? Improving myself in a specific class is a goal that keeps me playing. It keeps me spending hours in fps and ops to get the right gear and standing in front of a combat dummy to get my rotation down perfectly. If anyone can now master any class in a matter of a few days, why should we stick around? What goal is there to work towards?

[robwettengel]

Try running master mode chapters and tell me again how unlimited power is only needed in group content.

 

Forgot MM was even a thing on KOTFEET chapters. Strike the word "group" and replace it with "most challenging."

 

Edit: Though really we shouldn't start speculating about how badly they'll mess up the other classes in this thread until we see the lifeless husk they leave of the guardian at the end of this phase first.

 

This hits me right in the feels. "Lifeless husk." I hope for those of you who main JKs that what we are seeing is far more of a concept car than a production model.

 

The problem is they are forcing Guardian/Juggernauts to choose out 3 KEY DEFENSIVE COOLDOWNS. Take Focused Defense, Saber Reflect, or Blade Blitz. Not pruning out some useless ability. I could understand pruning some useless abilities but not that. All 3 of those are key to all 3 spec survivability.

 

The defensive survivability of our characters should not be impacted if NPC enemy HP and mechanics are not going to be treated similarly. From what I have been reading about the PTS experience on Onderon, enemies have not had their damage output reduced to take this into account. Taking everything into account, I am just baffled as to why the the JK was put on the PTS in this state--especially with the insta boost to 75. A 75 level toon needs those DCDs--especially if not receiving all offensive abilities available on the live version of the game. After all, if every mob you're facing on Onderon is the equivalency of walking into a buzzsaw, only gaming masochists are going to want to continue being involved with ongoing testing.

[SirCaldric]

Defense A

Blade Burst

Antagonizing Assault

Critical Slash

Critical Defense

Defiance

Narrowed Focus

Saber Reflect

Through Peace

 

This is my favorite part, since you get the passive bonus for Enure (Through Peace) but it was replaced by Saber Reflect!

[Slurmez]

I am aghast that an allegedly "professional" company put this dreck into public testing. Ignoring for the moment the monumentally bad design and planning around the changes the fact that there was no UI to facilitate the system shows a monumental lack of planning and professionalism. The "hacky" way to set up your character is the stuff of closed alphas, not public test servers.

 

Whoever made the choice to embarrass the company like this is literally terrifying because if he can do that his judgement is severely flawed so god knows what mess he is emotionally invested in and will push onto the playerbase.

 

I thought after the Anthem debacle they would have cleared out the dead wood and put some actual systems and management in place, all signs point to no though.....

[AragarVarnus]

If you cut the essential abilities from classes, I guarantee you will cut a significant percentage of existing player base as well. This is not an update, it’s a downgrade in all possible variations to PvE and PvP. By doing this you will not attract new players, you will only alienate the veterans and the game will eventually die. You advertised this new update as more variable gameplay for classes and more class story possibilities with various Base Class + Advanced Class combinations. What you have shown in PTS is just straight up trimming down of ESSENTIAL Guardian abilities which are necessary and can not be erased/limited in any way, and it will be absolutely detrimental for the game and for your "business model" per se if you will actually proceed with this changes on live servers. Listen to our feedback while it’s still not too late, because we know these characters inside and out, we didn’t have anything to do except for mastering them all these 10 years, so don’t take away the only thing that keeps veterans subbed, which is variability in skills.

What you try to do is straight up commercial suicide and no you won’t be a second WoW or ESO, SWTOR will simply cease to function.

 

This, right here. ^

[Sandrosw]

I am going to wait with play testing for next iteration, as even with just reading the posted changes I strongly disliked the direction. Vengeance juggernaut is probably the best class I played in any game - the rotation is natural and all abilities seem to be well thought out and complimenting each other. With removal of essential skills and dcds I have no idea how I would do the things that I already did in game.

 

No death under 15 min run of Eternal Championship without Enraged Defense and Reflect? Not even a Saber throw to get an attention of an add spawning away from boss?

Master mode chapters? Or even just Vet mode? Are people expected to switch Combat styles a lot, so the bosses will be intentionally doable only on some CSs and not on others?

Older content like H4 on planetary weekly missions, or Heroic fortresses, where it is almost impossible to get a group going?

Are those supposed to be only run as stealth CS avoiding all mobs because you cannot survive fighting multiple gold mobs at the same time, rendering all trash/non-objective mobs placed everywhere from normal planets, heroics to flashpoints and opses irrelevant?

Without the defensives, I would also never assume dwt role anymore - taunting the boss and keeping it on me in veteran dungeon with no tank. I appreciated I could to this and it made the run smoother, but now I do not see how I would survive this without constantly running from one kolto station to another. And that is extremely easy content.

I assume soloing vet/master mode FPs or Uprisings (to see if I can do it, because it is much slower than in group) is also getting thrown out of window?

 

I assume that next iteration will bring back stun, interrupt and stun breaker, because otherwise some encounters will have to be completely redesigned (Corruptors on Draxus, Minefield, Operator IX... actually easier to name those that would not need redesign...) so I will play test after the skill set is complete, as otherwise the feedback would be based on incomplete data.

 

I was also one of excited people that first thought that the change was going to be implemented in a way that instead of seeing 3 advanced classes I would see 12 and be able to pick one as they are existing now, so my jugg main could switch to corruption sorcerer and go heal a nim ops instead of my sorc that already has the titles that he does not use, as it would destroy his name (Darth Marr's Companion, no way I can use any other title than Darth). I did not expect to loose signature skills and choices in utilities, that allow for some very niche and very fun optimizations (reflect on tanks in EC, utility to increase damage when slowed on ToS Underlurker, or even taking more tank-related utilities when soloing a vet/mm chapter). Taking all this away will make it more simple, yes... and more homogenous and boring.

 

If there is an ability bloat, maybe taking away 3 for each CS that are not used/needed at all as a first step would be better. That way a new player would not use something that they should not, it would make CS feel more unique (as you can for example remove Retaliation from Vengeance and keep it on Immortal). However if you make too many utility skills (dcds, movement, stun, stun breaker, interrupts, resource gain, group buffs) specific to one CS, switching to different CS will actually be much harder for a new player, as it will bring too many unfamiliar skills. If they get used to CS with Enraged Defense dcd, switching to CS that has only Mad Dash dcd will feel unfamiliar, confusing and players will die because of that - and if they die, they will complain and switch back to previous CS, and will think twice before trying to switch to some other CS again.

 

Also it is in human nature, people just hate when stuff is taken from them without agreeing to it or getting something better in exchange. In RPG computer games, people want to get stronger, have more choices, shinier gear. If our Jedi can throw a lightsaber for years as those Jedis could in the movie, and somehow now he forgets it completely, without any replacement? Who would like that?

[Slurmez]

Also it is in human nature, people just hate when stuff is taken from them without agreeing to it or getting something better in exchange. In RPG computer games, people want to get stronger, have more choices, shinier gear. If our Jedi can throw a lightsaber for years as those Jedis could in the movie, and somehow now he forgets it completely, without any replacement? Who would like that?

 

Its also human nature for people, when in a position to do so, to push their own ideas and preferences for how to do things in the face of the wider audience due to significant emotional investment in said ideas. SWG is the defining example of this and the current mess on test server also smacks of it.