Scoundrel/Operatives need huge nerfs in PVP.

[Enticy]

This whole topic just sounds like a pile of “I got bent over and reamed by an Operative player, so now the game needs to change and cater to me because I’m too lazy to get better, waaaahhhh!”

 

And for the fifth time, at that. Maybe PvP just isn’t the thing for you, OP. Especially if learning from others isn’t something you’re interested in doing.

[Jarbarian]

This whole topic just sounds like a pile of “I got bent over and reamed by an Operative player, so now the game needs to change and cater to me because I’m too lazy to get better, waaaahhhh!”

 

And for the fifth time, at that. Maybe PvP just isn’t the thing for you, OP. Especially if learning from others isn’t something you’re interested in doing.

 

33% of the time, immune to everything is OP.

 

And I play Operative, even I think this is crazy OP.

 

You add in heals, CC, defenses, stealth, roll + 33% immunity with INSANE burst damage, yeah, even I think Operatives are OP.

[TrixxieTriss]

33% of the time, immune to everything is OP.

 

And I play Operative, even I think this is crazy OP.

 

You add in heals, CC, defenses, stealth, roll + 33% immunity with INSANE burst damage, yeah, even I think Operatives are OP.

 

Happy to prove you wrong if you’re ready ?

[Llacertus]

We should all really stop arguing and just refer to the post Setarade made at the top of page 3. Yes, the OP's original point of one operative stopping 5 people from capping a node was likely false or exaggerated. But this doesn't change the fact that operatives have more effective and a greater quantity tools at their disposal than any other class. Consequently, operatives also have a higher skill cap than every other class. I believe this high skill cap gives a lot of operatives the illusion of believing that they're simply better than a player of a different class when the truth is, that their class just had better potential. Edited December 24, 2020 by Llacertus

[Jarbarian]

We should all really stop arguing and just refer to the post Setarade made at the top of page 3. Yes, the OP's original point of one operative stopping 5 people from capping a node was likely false or exaggerated.

 

Untrue. On certain maps with places to hide behind on each side, it's easy for an operative to roll from side to side, pop out with a cap interrupt, heal up, roll to the other side, wash/rinse/repeat. Any COMPETENT Operative can stop 5 players from capping when he's immune 33% of the time and has something to hide behind.

 

What I said was 100% factual, true and based on real experience.

 

But this doesn't change the fact that operatives have more effective and a greater quantity tools at their disposal than any other class. Consequently, operatives also have a higher skill cap than every other class. I believe this high skill cap gives a lot of operatives the illusion of believing that they're simply better than a player of a different class when the truth is, that their class just had better potential.

 

Their class has way too much of everything. Healing, CC, Defenses, Burst Damage and so on. I'm actually OK with the class just having roll immunity removed. There's no reason to have a class with this many options at it's disposal ALSO having a 33% immunity and a 6 second roll cool down.

 

Whoever designed this into the game should be fired.

[KendraP]

I'm not against adjusting operatives necessarily; however I do not see how 1 competent operative can stop 5 equally competent players of any class. Again, if 5 people can't kill one guy, I still say those 5 guys are just bad.

[Jarbarian]

I'm not against adjusting operatives necessarily; however I do not see how 1 competent operative can stop 5 equally competent players of any class. Again, if 5 people can't kill one guy, I still say those 5 guys are just bad.

 

Map advantage to 33% immune to everything OPERATIVES.

[Llacertus]

You know why don't we just do the math here. Lets say there's 5 people vs 1 operative and assume that operative never gets caught by aoes while in stealth. If he manages to stop all 5 players from capping, he can do it for a maximum of 16 seconds. He's most likely only going to need to stop 2-3 from capping since the others will be spamming aoes. He then has to leave stealth, and survive for another 22 seconds( 2200 resolve total at a rate of -100 resolve per second) to wait out the enemy's white bar before he can mez targets again. Surviving for 22 seconds, would be difficult but possible if he los'ed well enough and had a cc breaker. If he gets netted during that time, he would either have to use countermeasures's cleanse effect to break the slow or, he would have to use his cc breaker to stop the slow and the hinder. If he survived that again, he could delay in stealth for another 16 seconds provided no one breaks the cc. After that, I'd say he would survive maybe 5-15 seconds out of stealth against 5 players. So in total if he could pull everything off correctly, and never got caught out of stealth, and didn't break his cc early... I'm estimating he could delay for 59-69 seconds. Admittedly, that's a very long time, but it would require a phenomenal amount of luck and some very terrible enemies to pull off. Edited December 24, 2020 by Llacertus

[DecoyThree]

I'm not sure how this thread is still going.

 

If players are getting stalled 5v1, then those 5 players are bad. All it takes is one guy to watch a teammate get halfway through a cap and press hardstun. Alternatively, you could just root the Operative. Can't roll while rooted, and Countermeasures is a long 45 seconds. There are so many ways that 5 guys can just wreck that Operative that it isn't funny.

 

But bads will be bad and defend on top of nodes, and self-interrupt their own caps to spam AOEs, or stand in Grenade/Flashbang range of each other when they don't need to, and other nonsense. You can't use examples of people making objectively bad plays against Operatives as evidence that Operatives should be nerfed.

[xKurisaki]

I’m just gonna chime in here because I think all the “nerf operatives” threads are ridiculous and the people who call for them either can’t find a way to counter them or are just too lazy but somehow have the time to complain on the forums.

 

1. Your argument about the 33% immunity is true but it is also false. Any good operatives time their rolls to avoid big bursts (and net) and/or chase other people, most of the time they do the latter. A competent player fighting an operative can just kite an operative around wasting his rolls eliminating that 33% immunity until it comes off cooldown.

 

2. I’m not gonna bother arguing with your “5v1” argument because well.. that’s just apparent those 5 people were bad.

 

3. Operatives heal. Yes. But keep in mind that you also have Juggs who have Grit Teeth, Mercs and PTs with Kolto. The damage scaling right now is already high when compared to healing (but Healer classes are in a good spot now imo).

 

In all honesty, it’s just a matter of skill. You just need to accept the fact that other classes have some more advantages than you and be willing to learn how to counter them.

[Llacertus]

I'm not sure how this thread is still going.

 

If players are getting stalled 5v1, then those 5 players are bad. All it takes is one guy to watch a teammate get halfway through a cap and press hardstun. Alternatively, you could just root the Operative. Can't roll while rooted, and Countermeasures is a long 45 seconds. There are so many ways that 5 guys can just wreck that Operative that it isn't funny.

 

Btw operatives, have toxic scan which is on a fairly low cooldown that they can use to cleanse roots, then roll.

[Jarbarian]

I1. Your argument about the 33% immunity is true but it is also false. Any good operatives time their rolls to avoid big bursts (and net) and/or chase other people, most of the time they do the latter. A competent player fighting an operative can just kite an operative around wasting his rolls eliminating that 33% immunity until it comes off cooldown.

 

Why do they need ANY Immunity? It's the most versatile class in the game. Giving them a GOD MODE option with immunity is too much. Just remove the immunity, problem solved.

 

2. I’m not gonna bother arguing with your “5v1” argument because well.. that’s just apparent those 5 people were bad.

 

Ancient Hypergate ring a bell? Wth 2 spots to avoid being hit wile you wait for your 6 second cool down, heals, CC, pop out, toss a grenade, pop back behind a pillar. A good Operative can pole dance the entire match and keep 5 from capping. I've seen it first hand. If no roll immunity or a way to get out of it, he'd have been stopped. Only a good Mercenary can stop him IF he can get the NET on him between rolls.

 

3. Operatives heal. Yes. But keep in mind that you also have Juggs who have Grit Teeth, Mercs and PTs with Kolto. The damage scaling right now is already high when compared to healing (but Healer classes are in a good spot now imo).

 

In all honesty, it’s just a matter of skill. You just need to accept the fact that other classes have some more advantages than you and be willing to learn how to counter them.

 

The L2P whining I see on the forums is usually from people who play Operatives. I actually play both Scoundrel/Operative and I think its OP. It gives me GOD MODE in PVP. Not necessary. Just remove the immunity and then will operatives be on an even level.

[DecoyThree]

Btw operatives, have toxic scan which is on a fairly low cooldown that they can use to cleanse roots, then roll.

 

It's a shorter cooldown, but it's going to cleanse a random effect. It's worth pressing, but by no means reliable, especially 1v5.

[Llacertus]

It's a shorter cooldown, but it's going to cleanse a random effect. It's worth pressing, but by no means reliable, especially 1v5.

 

I think it's pretty reliable most of the time since for any good melee, the first priority is to root the operative, before laying down damage + debuffs. If they can respond to the root faster enough, they're's a good chance they'll have time to roll in the middle of the attacker's 2-3rd GCD which might even lead to a reflect. For 1v1's it seems extremely powerful tbh. But yeah in a 1v5, they'd have to use their cc breaker once they got whitebarred after the root and stealth out.

[KendraP]

I still want a video of 5 decent players being kept from capping, in any match, before im going to believe it happened.

[HaoZhao]

Two good DPS players will destroy a Concealment operative of equal skill value. If multiple players are getting trolled by one operative, then you are having learn-to-play issues. Good players don't just time their own CDs in their heads. They also time their focus target's CD. With set bonus, roll is on a 6 second CD which isn't affected by alacrity. You should be able to do know when an operative is out of rolls and how to take advantage of that window to get your stuns/roots/whatever in.

 

For people complaining about operatives being amazing in 1v1, that's not a real issue. PVP is not and should not be balanced around duelling. It should be balanced around team play. If someone is getting destroyed by an operative, it's because the rest of the team has tunnel vision. You have to support each other. The game is working as intended.

[wooho]

Oh, look. It’s yet another “nerf Operatives/Scoundrels now!” thread. Everybody’s favorite subject. One skilled Merc/Commando with electro net can break an Op/Scoundrel. It’s worse if more than one person can focus that Op/Scoundrel once they’re netted. Packs of Ops/Scoundrels can be a problem, but packs of anything focusing you can be a problem. Use teamwork, and Ops/Scoundrels go down. They’re easy to take out in any team situation that isn’t huttball, where I’ll fully admit is where Ops/Scoundrels become nearly unstoppable.

 

 

 

Really? Five people? No one thought to stun and global the Op? I’ve seen two people held off multiple times. I’ve even seen three people held off. But five? Either you are exaggerating, or you were surrounded by people who had no clue what they were doing.

 

facts

[xKurisaki]

Why do they need ANY Immunity? It's the most versatile class in the game. Giving them a GOD MODE option with immunity is too much. Just remove the immunity, problem solved.

 

 

 

Ancient Hypergate ring a bell? Wth 2 spots to avoid being hit wile you wait for your 6 second cool down, heals, CC, pop out, toss a grenade, pop back behind a pillar. A good Operative can pole dance the entire match and keep 5 from capping. I've seen it first hand. If no roll immunity or a way to get out of it, he'd have been stopped. Only a good Mercenary can stop him IF he can get the NET on him between rolls.

 

 

 

The L2P whining I see on the forums is usually from people who play Operatives. I actually play both Scoundrel/Operative and I think its OP. It gives me GOD MODE in PVP. Not necessary. Just remove the immunity and then will operatives be on an even level.

 

1. Marauders have a DCD that has 99% DR. Stealth outs, Obfuscate. You want to nerf Marauders too?

Assassins have Force Shroud (immunity btw), double stealth outs and can keep you stunlocked. Want to nerf them too?

Sorcerers have God Bubble, Phasewalk, can get up to 83% DR, Heals. Nerf them too?

Mercs have reflect, net, a mobility buff to help los. Nerf them too?

Skank tank jugs have literally the same dps output as Rage jugs with more dcds. Nerf them too?

Powertechs have the highest burst in the game and Kolto. Nerf them too?

Snipers have Diversion, knockbacks, rolls.

 

2. As I’ve said, those 5 players are bad. Simple as that. I’ve been able to solo mediocre Operatives on my Jugg, Merc and PT. I’ve been able to assist someone 2v1 an operative on ANY class.

 

3. I’m a Marauder and Jug main. I do play Operative but your argument that 5 people can’t kill an EXCEPTIONAL operative is absurd.

 

The difference between a mediocre operative and an exceptional one is skill. I do not understand why you cannot comprehend the difference of the two in addition to that you had a bad team that couldn’t kill one.

[TrixxieTriss]

Map advantage to 33% immune to everything OPERATIVES.

 

Still happy to prove you wrong when you are ready to man up and accept the challenge.

[Sappharan]

Operative is NOT overpowered. Just get good.

 

Can you explain that, or do you expect us to take that at face value? So far the only rebuttal I see is that two players are required to handle an operative, and that Commando net is supposed to be the counter. I would be interested in your detailed insight.

 

In another thread you complain that operatives do not have enough group PvP utility. You fail to specify how, though.

What do you think would make operatives, the kings of 1v1...still, more useful in group PvP. I don't follow your posting history, so forgive me for overlooking a post you may have already made. If you have, and it is still relevant today, please link it.

[xKurisaki]

In addition to that 5v1 rhetoric and I’m sure that someone else here has pointed out.

 

Operatives has ONE stun breaker. Did none of the 5 players attempt to stun in the 66.6% non-immunity chance? And if he breaks, another one stuns. Or did those five players white bar that operative?

 

Again, you simply had a BAD TEAM.

[TrixxieTriss]

I still want a video of 5 decent players being kept from capping, in any match, before im going to believe it happened.

 

Can you get me a real video of big foot at the same time

[Llacertus]

In addition to that 5v1 rhetoric and I’m sure that someone else here has pointed out.

 

Operatives has ONE stun breaker. Did none of the 5 players attempt to stun in the 66.6% non-immunity chance? And if he breaks, another one stuns. Or did those five players white bar that operative?

 

Again, you simply had a BAD TEAM.

 

Its very easy for 5 players to overlap a stun and instantly whitebar any player tho. People are stupid and pop their stuns early when they see enemies hindering a cap.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Llacertus

[Llacertus]

1. Marauders have a DCD that has 99% DR. Stealth outs, Obfuscate. You want to nerf Marauders too?

Assassins have Force Shroud (immunity btw), double stealth outs and can keep you stunlocked. Want to nerf them too?

Sorcerers have God Bubble, Phasewalk, can get up to 83% DR, Heals. Nerf them too?

Mercs have reflect, net, a mobility buff to help los. Nerf them too?

Skank tank jugs have literally the same dps output as Rage jugs with more dcds. Nerf them too?

Powertechs have the highest burst in the game and Kolto. Nerf them too?

Snipers have Diversion, knockbacks, rolls.

 

The difference between a mediocre operative and an exceptional one is skill. I do not understand why you cannot comprehend the difference of the two in addition to that you had a bad team that couldn’t kill one.

 

I would refer u to the post at the top of page 3 if u want a well done comparison of operatives to other classes. It pretty clearly shows, they have more utility, better cc, better defensives, and more healing than any other class.

 

I highly doubt that many matchups in this game come down to skill. Its why u see teams that stack powertechs or stack operatives. It's just these classes have the most advantages at their disposal.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Llacertus

[KendraP]

Its very easy for 5 players to overlap a stun and instantly whitebar any player tho. People are stupid and pop their stuns early when they see enemies hindering a cap.

 

this is why everyone is qualifying their answer with no 5 competent players will be stopped from capping by 1 guy. I have no idea how we're supposed to properly account for stupid; and certainly don't think we should be nerfing something because of a group of 5 idiots.