Nature of Progress Nightmare Progression Board

[DragoshNashu]

I think this is a pretty fair statement and a problem with many of these discussions is that they're retrospective so I'll respect that it's probably the worst circumstance to actually change anything in. Congrats to their kill and I'll naturally respect it.

 

Sidenote; if it's meaningful to discussion. Camera 2's (the lead dev behind this raid) discord status for a period today was that he is currently actively trying to fix this red venom bug. So I suppose there's a degree of dev acknowledgement of this issue.

 

That being said I'll pre-empt a discussion since talking about problems before they happen is probably the only way to make any meaningful changes. What's your plan if this gets patched relatively soon and all remaining teams are made to do this fight without access to this bug?

 

Overall great work to FC in clearing so rapidly.

 

First of all, thank you for the congratulations.

 

Regarding the rest of your message, even if you stated multiple times you're not casting shade, that's all you are trying to do here.

 

I'm going to remind you of previous tier. How do you condone the usage of rebounders to bypass a dps check that would effectively wipe the raid if not met, when you know it was not intended? If that's what you're preaching, please don't be a hypocrite and remove yourselves from Izax 1st kill (you still proudly present it in your signature even if now it's clear it was achieved by exploiting). Or is this a situation of it's only an exploit if someone else used it before you and killed the boss? Or it's an exploit only after x hours/days/weeks etc.?

 

Sidenote: In the case of rebounders we know for sure devs did not intend it, as they patched it, so we have full dev acknowledgement of that issue. Regarding your arbitrary motivation regarding the fact that rebounder is a character ability whereas red venom is not, I don't see why they should be treated differently. Both effectively bypass a fight mechanic and both are just 1s and 0s in a code and they both are some abbilities that were tagged incorrectly in said code. I will let others decide which one is more of a "cheese", I'm just going to say that the balance tips quite clearly in favour of one of them.

 

That's all I had to say.

 

P.S. How long did it take you to clear Izax again once the rebounder fix was applied?

Edited June 29, 2020 by DragoshNashu

[RikuvonDrake]

Sidenote; if it's meaningful to discussion. Camera 2's (the lead dev behind this raid) discord status for a period today was that he is currently actively trying to fix this red venom bug. So I suppose there's a degree of dev acknowledgement of this issue.

 

going by that logic, reflecting the missile volley was an exploit/bug as well

 

This is a very different context because reflects got patched months after release

 

reflecting anchors and quadra clicking button in p3 was fixed months after release, both of those were considered exploits/bugs by devs, just like reflecting missile volley

Edited June 29, 2020 by RikuvonDrake

[merovejec]

I see 1st world problems being discussed here

[DarthYun]

Congratulations to everyone with their recent clears, especially team Godslayers from <Tragic Heroes> with their world first Red tank with item level 295!

 

Now to more pressing matters, I feel a consensus has been reached and therefore updated the board accordingly. Kill is a kill when it's recognised by the community. It seems these world firsts are never without controversy and tracking this boss killed in this way without doing this and turning 360 and walking away is indeed a bad idea.

 

Good luck everyone with clearing this operation and I will be looking forward to more kill posts!

[Kookabura]

Encounter 1| 8m NiM <Tauntaun War Veterans> Team Tauntaun Seekers. Satele Shan. Imperial

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/664875662

https://imgur.com/bGPS7T1

[ipoopedonu]

Apparently it is a point of controversy that we have not posted our kills yet. I was waiting until we cleared the raid so we could just post it all at once. As for our Apex kill, after we became aware of the Red Venom Cloud bug and with the community consensus being that it is acceptable to use, we decided to use it in our kill. Big congrats to <Farming Components> on their Apex kill and congrats to all the teams pulling master mode Dxun getting kills, keep it up the tier isn't over yet!

 

<Failure> Group Emerald - Satele Shan

 

Red: https://i.gyazo.com/ec732a68b130f7c6922cd6921c8c1f28.jpg

Encounter 1: https://i.gyazo.com/c4c7cc8f1c94ff8af88ebfe8dceb42d1.jpg

Encounter 2: https://i.gyazo.com/c94b723f497370c2127051ff1403ba8e.jpg

Mutant Trandoshans: https://i.gyazo.com/7294a3e7e291b31bca9c1868b0aab984.jpg

Huntmaster: https://i.gyazo.com/ac8822ec3731cc02408c5ea4b9b236bb.jpg

Apex Vanguard: https://i.gyazo.com/2ddc8542e420ad2519277f216122663e.jpg

[merovejec]

Now to more pressing matters, I feel a consensus has been reached and therefore updated the board accordingly. Kill is a kill when it's recognised by the community. It seems these world firsts are never without controversy and tracking this boss killed in this way without doing this and turning 360 and walking away is indeed a bad idea.

 

It is just like you have said, its an achievement after all and you are able to get this achievement with various ways. The game itself offers many abilities, classes, specs, utilities etc. all these may prove to be a big advantage in certain encounters or situations.

 

Many things were added later on, which influenced older parts of the game. However its up to the Devs to make sure the current content is designed in a way that takes everything into consideration! As we can see from the past this is a constant problem. It ranges from Revan hydraoulics, to reflecting Izax. Its pixels after all and players can always find ways to trick the system. We can see that players are making many things in the game easier for them for example when killing Base Commanders they know how to pull just the commander to avoid having to fight the trash mobs or fast run flashpoints and much more. Players simply like to make stuff easier for them, but mainly using only what the game has to offer.

 

I also do not see anything wrong with this. They group got the kill, if they didnt really cheat to get it then its fine. Its more the Devs role to think about their mistakes and fix it whenever possible. They group still deserves the kill as even if it was fixed they did find a way....

[TheReapersAP]

Remember when Zorz killed Revan when hydraulics worked on aberration knockbacks so they could ignore it and just burn core? And then remember when they fixed it and then they were first to kill it after the fix?

 

Be interesting to see if any team is able to clear it without using the bug/exploit/clever use of game mechanics even if bioware doesn't "fix" it (although they likely will at some point it sounds like)

 

Be interesting is all I'm saying.

[justinplainview]

Remember when Zorz killed Revan when hydraulics worked on aberration knockbacks so they could ignore it and just burn core? And then remember when they fixed it and then they were first to kill it after the fix?

 

Be interesting to see if any team is able to clear it without using the bug/exploit/clever use of game mechanics even if bioware doesn't "fix" it (although they likely will at some point it sounds like)

 

Be interesting is all I'm saying.

 

As someone who was heavily involved in feedback to the devs on that fight both on PTS and Live, the devs were warned *multiple times* that the way the mechanic could be ignored by hydraulics combined with the aberration spawn timing and the hydraulics cooldown duration meant that teams would *only* bring in 8 Bounty Hunters. They were told this explicitly on PTS. They were told this explicitly on live. Devs were sent links to kill videos with 8 Bounty Hunters. So while I agree with the idea of a post Red Venom change let's see who clears it deal... I think it should be pointed out that the devs were given ample time to change it and it took until there were multiple guild kills on live to make the change.

 

TLDR: I am interested to know how long the devs have been aware of this issue for Apex. If the community sees that all top guilds doing this until the fix is fine, then that's good enough for me. FC got World First, nothing changes that. I would assume that FC would be interested in also getting the first kill post-change to the fight, right?

[Blackveldt]

Screenshot

Faction: Empire

Server: SF

Team: 1-Op

Guild: Lit

6/8 of us got the chievo, but not everyone's toon is in guild. Still you should see chievos pop up in the video, plus the additional SS above.

[ExarKunxx]

Sidenote; if it's meaningful to discussion. Camera 2's (the lead dev behind this raid) discord status for a period today was that he is currently actively trying to fix this red venom bug. So I suppose there's a degree of dev acknowledgement of this issue.

 

It's pretty obvious that that since the Dev acknowledged this is a bug the kill was bug abuse and therefore invalid, FC and Failure need to kill without bugging Red venom

Edited June 29, 2020 by ExarKunxx

[ExarKunxx]

Remember when using HM/NiM Lockout sharing was used to skip Dread Guards for gear made you ineligible but blatant bug abuse isn't now? Imagine breaking Brontes so she never spawns orbs or Kephesses? Mitigating and breaking a mechanic are different things. Edited June 29, 2020 by ExarKunxx

[TheReapersAP]

TLDR: I am interested to know how long the devs have been aware of this issue for Apex. If the community sees that all top guilds doing this until the fix is fine, then that's good enough for me. FC got World First, nothing changes that. I would assume that FC would be interested in also getting the first kill post-change to the fight, right?

 

I totally agree. I'm not taking anything away from FC. But I would be a lot more impressed if they killed it without using the bug first as well. As impressed as one can be with swtor world firsts that is >.>

 

This is for the same reasoning that Zorz posted "world first 2 non bounty hunter revan kill" as well. Not that it actually mattered in any "official sense," but it was still impressive at the time.

 

But that is just one man's opinion, not saying the community as a whole should or would agree. And FC probably shouldn't care about my opinion tbh. But like I said.... interesting

[justinplainview]

Having arguments about progression for a raid called "Nature of Progress" is high class meme material Edited June 29, 2020 by justinplainview

[FridgeLM]

Remember when using HM/NiM Lockout sharing was used to skip Dread Guards for gear made you ineligible but blatant bug abuse isn't now? Imagine breaking Brontes so she never spawns orbs or Kephesses? Mitigating and breaking a mechanic are different things.

 

We didn't skip dread guards for gear.

[ExarKunxx]

We didn't skip dread guards for gear.

 

No that's what we and several other guilds did and we got taken off the progression thread for it, despite DG only being killable by one guild at the time due to impossible dps reqs and still needing a 30 second kelsara enrage kite

Edited June 29, 2020 by ExarKunxx

[FridgeLM]

No that's what we and several other guilds did and we got taken off the progression thread for it, despite DG only being killable by one guild at the time due to impossible dps reqs and still needing a 30 second kelsara enrage kite

 

That progression thread was a joke. Their google doc has the world first timed run literally a month after my in game time stamp.

[ExarKunxx]

My point still is Killing Apex was only the result of blatant bug abuse and can't be considered a real kill

[RussellRichter]

Just want to share my thoughts on another bug that is being heavily abused and glossed over. On huntmaster when you knock lurking beasts into the water, it is supposed to grant ~ 700,000 hp PER add to Shelleigh. Currently, whether you knock in 1 add or 20 adds, it is still granting Shelleigh only 700,000 hp. So if a group knocked in 20 adds, shelleigh would have 9.2 mil hp instead of 29.5 mil hp. Knocking in so many as several groups are doing would make the fight unkillable even if you were knocking in the maximum amount of birds allowed for a kill.

 

This bug was reported and acknowledged months ago on the public test server and it was not fixed in any of the refreshes nor the live patch. The raid really wasn't in a state where it was ready to be released

[fliPiX]

 

This bug was reported and acknowledged months ago on the public test server and it was not fixed in any of the refreshes nor the live patch. The raid really wasn't in a state where it was ready to be released

 

This aint news to me that bioware releases content that isnt ready for live but what makes it 15x more stupid is that they pushed back the release from march? april? to now late june to make it ready for live. guess what.

[justinplainview]

What's a progression thread without salt and rustled jimmies

[xSarrow]

Hi

 

<Camp Me I'm Famous> / Imp-Side / The Leviathan

RED 8 Master

B1 Master

B2 Master

 

Update for Trando (Forgot screen with dead boss sorry)

Trandoshan

 

Wait for others down

[DarthYun]

Board updated, congratulations with the recent clears.

 

I have another point of discussion. I am using B1 and B2 for second and third lockout because it is a Breach while others seem to be using Encounter. Game files say it's called holding pen. issueless some people would say but I think using multiple names can be really confusing.

 

So what is it?

 

Is it an Encounter during the Breach of the Holding Pen? is this the way? And should it stay B1 and B2 or change to E1 and E2 or HP1 and HP2, HP meaning holding pen. i still can't decide.

[Kookabura]

Encounter 2 - Security Centre | 8m NiM <Tauntaun War Veterans> Team Tauntaun Seekers. Satele Shan. Imperial

 

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/667757992

https://imgur.com/ygmlV6l

[CaptnGreg]

After being allowed to train the first couple of bosses on a daily basis Raidbull on Tulak Hord is joyous to announce the German 3rd kill of the bugfree, working as intended P̶o̶w̶e̶r̶ ̶R̶a̶n̶g̶e̶r̶s̶ K̶e̶p̶h̶e̶s̶s̶f̶a̶n̶b̶o̶y̶z̶ <Mutant Trandoshans (8-Person Master)>. This momentous occasion will be celebrated for generations to come as we move on to greener pastures or light points.