I can't be the only person wanting Operatives/Scoundrels NERFED HARD.....

[Jarbarian]

I don't wanna argue too much here, since we agree on the main topic which is sin and op being the strongest classes atm, and only disagree on which of them is number 1, which is fine, we all have different impressions and experiences.

 

But let me still add 3 points that in my opinion push sins over operatives, maybe it's informative for some:

 

- Low Slash. It interrupts, it keeps your target in place even at a distance of 30m (or even more with travel time) and most importantly: if correctly used, it de facto is a hard stun for a full GCD + adds a slight delay after to where you are able to act but still can't roll / mad dash / ... (similar to grenades). An operative can't CC at over 10m distance, they either rely on holotraverse or have to roll that distance which costs GCDs and time and gives the target opportunity for counterplay.

 

- Sin's immunity to stuns (Shroud + Saber Ward) while being able to do their damage pretty much guarantees a sin or a group of sins to get the opener, and not only the opener, but a ridiculous one (spike, low slash, autocrit mauls). When an operative opens and lets say with hardstun into volatile etc. that's certainly scary too, but remember during that, the operative is always vulnerable to any CC and knockback by team mates (or sorc's flash bubble!) and if used well their opener is gone. Against a sin opener (or maras opening from stealth with Force Crush) team mates can often do nothing to help except pressuring back for the first 6-10 sec.

 

- You already mentioned sin's power to offguard, which is obviously strong but how strong exactly is hard to evaluate. It shines with "force focus on you" by offguarding into vanish regen + equip lifewarden into "force focus on you" by offguarding again, that carrys many 4 dps and also 3 dps healer games. Yes, there is counterplay for sin vanish in the form of Electro Net or revealing them with AoE, but from my experience they get away too often still.

 

No offense but I bet Operative is your main. I have no problem with my Sin/Op/Sage/Sentinel, I know all the classes.

 

I am just telling you, Operatives are topping BG damage, controlling an entire team and way too hard to kill. I'm telling you because I PLAY Scoundrel and I know exactly what they can or cannot do. Even my Sin has major issues with Operatives.

 

One stunlock, you're dead. Period.

[snave]

No offense but I bet Operative is your main. I have no problem with my Sin/Op/Sage/Sentinel, I know all the classes.

 

I am just telling you, Operatives are topping BG damage, controlling an entire team and way too hard to kill. I'm telling you because I PLAY Scoundrel and I know exactly what they can or cannot do. Even my Sin has major issues with Operatives.

 

One stunlock, you're dead. Period.

 

Please provide any evidence of this being true rather than just saying "oNe StUnLocK yoUrE dEaD"

[JediMasterAlex]

Please provide any evidence of this being true rather than just saying "oNe StUnLocK yoUrE dEaD"

 

For perspective, the OP is the same person that started this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=973072

[Raansu]

I'd love it as well if every DPS was a glass cannon, but unfortunately the game will never revert to that state. Solo Ranked is why DPS have become increasingly "tanky" over the course of the game. So long as Solo Ranked exists each DPS spec needs defenses to help mitigate (or counter) focus without help in the form of guard or healing. The bloat of "tanky" DCDs, mobility boosts, escapes, ect is all tied to balancing for Solo Ranked.

 

Before someone gets triggered by that post...I'm not advocating that Ranked be Group only. Just stating that Solo Ranked existing has some consequences that can't be avoided in the form of DPS specs having strong defensive abilities.

 

And I said back then that this is exactly what would happen when they got rid of 8v8 ranked and introduced arenas. Bringing in arenas was the BIGGEST mistake this dev team made with pvp. Not only did it cause a bunch of people to treat warzones like deathmatches (there will always be those that do, but arenas made the issue worse), but the focus of class balance went towards arenas which is nearly impossible. Before arena introductions we had damn near perfect class balance. What I'd give for a dev team that had some balls and reverted the game balance back to pre arenas and gave us 8v8 ranked.

[Sertar]

No offense but I bet Operative is your main. I have no problem with my Sin/Op/Sage/Sentinel, I know all the classes.

 

I am just telling you, Operatives are topping BG damage, controlling an entire team and way too hard to kill. I'm telling you because I PLAY Scoundrel and I know exactly what they can or cannot do. Even my Sin has major issues with Operatives.

 

One stunlock, you're dead. Period.

For one second I thought you‘re the guy I was actually responding to. Good thing I double checked.

 

There is no need to argue that it’s garbage to give the class that already had the shortest cooldown on hardstun a 2nd charge on it. Unnecessary and annoying. And to your other point: I wasn’t even talking from an operative‘s POV, it was more about counterplay. When I‘m Sorc or Sniper, I rather get opened or chased by operatives than by sins and maras. The later can’t be CC’ed in the opener and they can exploit me running (not in cover -> low slash/leap) and close the distance with vanish (mara) or while I’m low slashed (sin). Operative‘s advantage is they are likely not target, so they will reach me at some point, while sin and mara can die along the way from my team mates.

[timovdt]

This is mostly accurate. I'd rank operatives at 1 currently, at least in ranked, due to their ability to solo global any class that doesn't have an immunity CD available (sniper evasion, undying rage, shroud, bubble) regardless of health level. The level of burst that volatile strike gives them is simply game-breaking, mostly because it is repeatable every 15 seconds with no cooldown (and twice back to back in the opener). Concealment is also far superior to deception in its ability to control a class and stop it from kiting while unloading this burst (crippling slice into hardstun for the first burst window, then mezz and apply second volatile and break with veiled strike. Only have to land 1 gcd out of essentially stunlock.) This control far outstrips the ability to offguard from assassins, as with 6.0 burst a guarding sin will do pretty low damage if a good player sits on them. If there are 2-3 assassins alternating guard with a healer, then obviously this is different, but that's exceedingly rare in solos. That's not to say sins aren't OP, as they're a strong number 2, for similar non-cooldown autocrit reasons, but they at least have to waste a vanish to reset their autocrit. The problem is, operatives have always been very difficult kill targets (read: the last in kill target priority) and an unbeatable 1v1 class since 5.x and perhaps before, so to add REPEATABLE 100-~20 burst to that kit makes it so the team with the least operatives is extremely outcomped. There's another point to be made about them being the only class that can offheal while doing damage, but that was the case in 5.x too so I'll leave it alone.

 

TL;DR: volatile strike too stronk, add a 30-60s cooldown to it. Deception stronk for similar reason, add a cooldown to maul (10s?) that duplicity resets. Do this and balance is drastically improved. Then (and only then) maybe take a look at stormwatch, continuous fire, defel spliced genes, and heal scaling.

 

 

Cant agree more maybe add a few things in that i specificly hate about them but how do we nerf them without killing them or some of there skill expression i hate operatives but id also dislike to se another clas get gutted like sorc or jugg have been in the past it just makes almost all those players rerol to something else that then gets nerfed

[TrixxieTriss]

They do not need a nerf, they need to have the bugs fixed.

Stop the set bonus stacking, stop the tactical swapping that other classes cannot do, and they are fine.

Sins in a similar place.

That has to be addressed before we start swinging the nerf bat.

 

100% agree. BioWare should not even be considering any class changes on any class, including sorcs, until they fix all the damn bugs and also stop all tactical swapping once a match or round starts

[TrixxieTriss]

Predation should be only for Carnage/Combat which is the spec which really needs it. Theu actually broke it, when they gave it to Fury and Annihilation was it in 5 or 4.0. The vanish tactical just highlights this problem.

 

While ever BioWare keep adding speed buffs and high mobility abilities / gap closers for every bloody class, then predation should be totally left alone.

The problems are mostly caused by BioWare continuously doing this every expansion to mitigate all the stuns, roots and passive immunities they keep adding as well.

The devs are so uncreative they are just duplicating other class abilities instead of thinking of unique class ones. Now we have so many generic like abilities the class uniqueness has been diluted and other classes have had those abilities double up over the years to compensate.

Edited February 4, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

If you're stalling an entire team then the entire team is bad. That's not my opinion, it's a fact.

 

I'm actually ok with them nerfing operatives, not because I think the class needs a nerf, simply because I'm bored of reading stupid posts like this about them.

 

100% on the stalling tactics. The ability to stall had been like this for many, many years. I remember watching one of your instructional vids a long time ago on how to stale on an operative. It’s what helped me learn to mitigate it and also gave me tips to use to stall on non stealths.

 

I won’t go into if the are OP on damage or survival. You would know better than most.

 

What I will say is I have a personal pet hate (I know its my issue), which is the inability to be able to hit back at an Operative when they are having their way with me from behind (so rude #metoo lol). I feel it’s most unfair ability in the game.

 

I know there are ways to mitigate it, but with my lag, I’m not quick enough and if DCDs are not 100% or my health isn’t 100%, I get stun globalled 90% of the time (unless they are bad). This isn’t new for me either, so it’s not a meta change in the damage they do, so I don’t think any other change is needed (from my noob perspective).

 

I can deal with everything else an op throws at me, it’s only the stun to death that grinds my gears. I don’t have a problem with sins. If Operatives were set up similarly, it would be a fairer fight IMO.

 

But as I said, that’s my personal issue and I can’t change my lag. I can change tactics and strategy to deal with every other class and my lag, but ops are the only ones I haven’t been able to do it with.

[TrixxieTriss]

No offense but I bet Operative is your main. I have no problem with my Sin/Op/Sage/Sentinel, I know all the classes.

 

I am just telling you, Operatives are topping BG damage, controlling an entire team and way too hard to kill. I'm telling you because I PLAY Scoundrel and I know exactly what they can or cannot do. Even my Sin has major issues with Operatives.

 

One stunlock, you're dead. Period.

 

Let me ask, how many are actually on the team? One operative cannot do that unless they have help from another op or sin. They certainly can’t top the dps, while also stalling in the same game because the play style is different.

If the are stalling, they are not doing much damage. If they are doing lots of damage, they aren’t stalling.

You can’t have it both ways. So which is it?

[Csjbo]

The two things that I think need to be looked at are the tactics Volatile Strike and Viral Elements and I don't believe I need to explain why those tacticals are overtuned.

 

Everything else regarding operatives like their self-heals, their kiting ability, and DCDs were present in 5.0....annoying sure, but not game-breaking. Part of the issue people seem to be having with killing operatives is that they have no idea how and when to hard stun an operative....usually opening with the stun and then let the operative run around white-barred.

 

I heard that Bioware is making sure that if someone swaps from say Debilitator Set to Tacticians Set, the charges of their hard stuns goes back to one....which is nice.

[Seterade]

I heard that Bioware is making sure that if someone swaps from say Debilitator Set to Tacticians Set, the charges of their hard stuns goes back to one....which is nice.

 

I quit swtor but I ran across this comment and decided to point something out in relation. should bioware do this...... this means all gear swaps will fail to hold stack X. which includes but not limited to tacticals. should this actual happen as you say it will have an interesting effect on sins, since they wont be able to run 2 shrouds and 2 invis at the same time.

[Raansu]

Cant agree more maybe add a few things in that i specificly hate about them but how do we nerf them without killing them or some of there skill expression i hate operatives but id also dislike to se another clas get gutted like sorc or jugg have been in the past it just makes almost all those players rerol to something else that then gets nerfed

 

Turn them back into a control spec instead of a roll/runaway healing spec. Take away their hots, take away the immunity on roll, give them back shootfirst stun and turn them back into the proper burst class they were in vanilla where their survivability was in their ability to control the fight with CC and burst, not defensive CD's.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Raansu

[jediharrsion]

In every single BG, Scoundrels/Operatives are topping PVP damage. They are simply UNKILLABLE, UNCONTROLLABLE, their CC is crazy, their heals and defenses are crazy and basically can stop an entire team from capping anything in BGs. It makes Warcraft's ROGUE's look like clowns. This class needs to be hit with the biggest nerfbat in the game. I play the class and have to laugh out loud. Even *I* should not be this OP.

 

ANd to be frank, I play every class in the game and nothing comes close to the OP-ness of Scoundrels/Operatives.

 

PLEASE NERF THEM HARD. Make SWTOR (PVP) Great Again! (MSAGA!)

 

The only people not calling for nerf's are operatives and scoundrels. what the op is saying is all too true. The nerbat has to be brought out once again. Having played both operative/scoundrel It is laughable just how over powered they are.

[timovdt]

Turn them back into a control spec instead of a roll/runaway healing spec. Take away their hots, take away the immunity on roll, give them back shootfirst stun and turn them back into the proper burst class they were in vanilla where their survivability was in their ability to control the fight with CC and burst, not defensive CD's.

 

Okay but then you do once again change there playstyle yet again and thats what we are trying to avoid correct ? ik there playstile is only somewhat possible becous of what makes them so strong and in need of nerfs but changing them back to there vanila state will probebly have quite a large effect on there playerbase.

They will still be played but there needs to be something else we can do to IMO so that we can keep there current playstyle while reducing there overall powerlevel.Sadly my Op/Sc knowledge is rather small as i only ever leveled one,

so if anyone that plays this class can come up wiht some ideas for this that whould be neat

[Raansu]

Okay but then you do once again change there playstyle yet again and thats what we are trying to avoid correct ? ik there playstile is only somewhat possible becous of what makes them so strong and in need of nerfs but changing them back to there vanila state will probebly have quite a large effect on there playerbase.

They will still be played but there needs to be something else we can do to IMO so that we can keep there current playstyle while reducing there overall powerlevel.Sadly my Op/Sc knowledge is rather small as i only ever leveled one,

so if anyone that plays this class can come up wiht some ideas for this that whould be neat

 

Playstyles change, that's the course of MMO's. That said, old school scrapper was WAY more fun than the current boring design of roll away and spam hots.

[timovdt]

Playstyles change, that's the course of MMO's. That said, old school scrapper was WAY more fun than the current boring design of roll away and spam hots.

Never played Old school version of the class as it never(and still does not) intrest me so i have no clue

The thing is BW wont just undo 8 years of stuff on a class so just reverting it seems like a pretty far fetched idea Imo

Not a bad one but just very unlikely. But what else can be done to fix this class in your opinion

[Raansu]

Never played Old school version of the class as it never(and still does not) intrest me so i have no clue

The thing is BW wont just undo 8 years of stuff on a class so just reverting it seems like a pretty far fetched idea Imo

Not a bad one but just very unlikely. But what else can be done to fix this class in your opinion

 

Make the hots healer only again and remove invulnerability on their roll.

[mothbanquet]

Playstyles change, that's the course of MMO's. That said, old school scrapper was WAY more fun than the current boring design of roll away and spam hots.

 

I never played old school Scrapper/Ops, what made them more fun back then?

[Warrioroffhell]

Can people finally stop with the nerf operatives/sins threads?

 

like every issue u guys have described has something to do with the gearstack buggs or classstacking.

If u look at the class itself they are fine.

 

If u don't know how to handle an operative i suggest u learn how to duel operatives. their weakness is roots after roll or after double roll

 

Same for sins where people are wasting their hardstuns on deflection with utility or on shroud with tech/force stuns

if u know the classes u know how to counter them and u would now all classes are pretty good balanced this expansion except for jug dps and overall heal specs , but i won't go in detail here since its going offtopic.

 

just fix the bug arround gear/tactical swapping and everything is fine.

[Raansu]

I never played old school Scrapper/Ops, what made them more fun back then?

 

Best way to explain I think is to watch an old footage of it.

 

The general premise is the same, but the major difference is flechette round was manually loaded, and you had an an ability in your opener called shoot first which was a big crit hit that also knocked the player to the ground. You didn't have rolls, you didn't have hots, and you didn't have the delayed burst attack. They were super super super squishy, but that's fine because they could also kill you instantly. IMO that's how they should be.

[thomasgtott]

There's always some class that feels OP, people call for a nerf, maybe the nerf happens, but the devs always seem to over-rotate on it and then its just some other class that becomes FOTM. It almost feels intentional. I just keep 6-8 toons of different classes in rotation out of a larger pool, and if I get frustrated by an Op, or previously a Merc, or previsoulsly a <insert FOTM here> then I just go play a few WZ on that class. No class is ever unstoppable though.

[Seterade]

operatives are the best class in swtor in 1v1 and are above average in group content. you think their easy? you think "hurr just counter the roll" duel alim, nike, prum or dukeh then come back here and apologize for spreading misleading information. also oknight... hes good now too. Edited February 6, 2020 by Seterade

[TrixxieTriss]

operatives are the best class in swtor in 1v1 and are above average in group content. you think their easy? you think "hurr just counter the roll" duel alim, nike, prum or dukeh then come back here and apologize for spreading misleading information. also oknight... hes good now too.

 

Ops have been one of the best 1v1 specs in the game for a very long time, even when they were weak. It’s what they are best at. So IMO, nothings really changed on that front.

If you get yourself into a 1v1 with an Op, you better hope you’re a really good player and/or they aren’t.

 

Wether they are now OP is harder for me to tell. I’ve not had issues in most group environments as long as I’m not the one a solo operative decides to focus first. And if there are two or more Ops, all you can do is apply lube and enjoy the ride.

 

I really think the nerf squad’s (on every class) should tone down the calls and threads till Bioware fix the game, bugs, mechanics (one tactical per match) and gear.

 

Which begs the question, why the hell aren’t we all demanding they fix this broken mess and creating pages of new threads across the pvp and general forums till they listen. We should stop all these nerf threads and focus on them fixing the game before they inevitably go and break it more by doing Nerfs.

Edited February 6, 2020 by TrixxieTriss

[timovdt]

Ops have been one of the best 1v1 specs in the game for a very long time, even when they were weak. It’s what they are best at. So IMO, nothings really changed on that front.

If you get yourself into a 1v1 with an Op, you better hope you’re a really good player and/or they aren’t.

 

Wether they are now OP is harder for me to tell. I’ve not had issues in most group environments as long as I’m not the one a solo operative decides to focus first. And if there are two or more Ops, all you can do is apply lube and enjoy the ride.

 

I really think the nerf squad’s (on every class) should tone down the calls and threads till Bioware fix the game, bugs, mechanics (one tactical per match) and gear.

 

Which begs the question, why the hell aren’t we all demanding they fix this broken mess and creating pages of new threads across the pvp and general forums till they listen. We should stop all these nerf threads and focus on them fixing the game before they inevitably go and break it more by doing Nerfs.

 

Fair points but perhaps allot of these threads comecome from how frustrating it is to play against them then just pure balance alone. and perhaps they should be looked at to make less frustrating to deal with. maybe fixing all of the buggs will help with this but looking at this games record with buggs (just look at CL bugg and how long that existed) can we realy put our hopes up that bw will fix all the buggs with this class ? or atleast in our lifetime XD

instead of just asking for a nerf on whats been the best class for what the last 5 ish years ? or if not the best atleast top2/3 in both pve/pvp it might actuly be nice to have something else to shout at instead of operatives ^^

like right now sins might be just as 'op' but i dont find them half as frustrating becous god knows how long has it been that i had to fear a assasin/shadow. But overal i do agree fixing the bugs is a must i just doubt bw will bother with them or if they do that they will succeed in this.