Gear doesn't matter!

[TrixxieTriss]

I suggest having someone on the forums ask this question either directly to Musco or on the forums in the PTS section... Someone that he likes and actually will answer.

 

LoL! Aka, probably not me

 

At least I tried in two different threads. One I started and another was in the feed back thread in the pts section.

 

There seems to be a fair bit of support for it. But I doubt it will happen, regardless of who asks.

[TrixxieTriss]

Be careful... they might insult your intelligence too. We clearly just can't read well enough to understand what they are trying to accomplish.

 

Passes... Kendra a Thesaurus, dictionary and a mad magazine

[Seterade]

the damage reduction difference isnt a number you can see. which is why its not a well known thing, or people tend to ignore it.

 

I pull 3.5k dps in full 230, with 228 augs on mara. what this means is that bolster has next to no difference to your actual damage output. you can reliably assume you have the dps stats from bolster to do 252 dmg. that being said, in 258 (240 augs) you do 4.5k dmg. a big difference between 252 and 258.

 

However..... if you enter a wz relieing completely on bolster for gear, you will melt. its not a question of stats, or why, or damage reduction. its as simple as the fact that a sorc will resist an attack on kaas debolster. sorc has no resist, doesnt change that he resists on kaas. this is because swtors "bolster" is not gear, and cant be expected to act like it. no matter how you spin it, or what spreadsheet you pull up, the bottom line is bolster is not gear, therefore does not operate the same.

[KendraP]

Sadly I never get responses from certain BW representatives, only Charles responded or was it Keith to one of my posts when Eric was on vacation? During that time we all had plenty of interactions with BW representatives, though. Not like I got any special treatment that day.

 

I think Eric has me on ignore tbh.

 

What's depressing is I never got any responses when I was trying to be reasonable either. Be a sarcastic jerk, then they respond apparently.

Edited October 3, 2019 by KendraP

[JediMasterAlex]

the damage reduction difference isnt a number you can see. which is why its not a well known thing, or people tend to ignore it.

 

But you can see it. Hover over armor rating and it shows up.

 

However..... if you enter a wz relieing completely on bolster for gear, you will melt. its not a question of stats, or why, or damage reduction. its as simple as the fact that a sorc will resist an attack on kaas debolster. sorc has no resist, doesnt change that he resists on kaas. this is because swtors "bolster" is not gear, and cant be expected to act like it. no matter how you spin it, or what spreadsheet you pull up, the bottom line is bolster is not gear, therefore does not operate the same.

 

So it's what, voodoo? I seriously don't understand this argument. I have played in 230s in wzs and it feels exactly the same to me. I've seen people in ranked come in in 230-242 gear and do well when they already know how to play. Similarly I see people in full 258 get globaled. Optimized gear only makes a small difference, and it will rarely affect the actual outcome of matches.

[Raansu]

But you can see it. Hover over armor rating and it shows up.

 

 

 

So it's what, voodoo? I seriously don't understand this argument. I have played in 230s in wzs and it feels exactly the same to me. I've seen people in ranked come in in 230-242 gear and do well when they already know how to play. Similarly I see people in full 258 get globaled. Optimized gear only makes a small difference, and it will rarely affect the actual outcome of matches.

 

You either don't have a geared toon or you're lying. Its literally night and day between my 258 main and my alts wearing 230.

[Seterade]

But you can see it. Hover over armor rating and it shows up.

 

 

 

So it's what, voodoo? I seriously don't understand this argument. I have played in 230s in wzs and it feels exactly the same to me. I've seen people in ranked come in in 230-242 gear and do well when they already know how to play. Similarly I see people in full 258 get globaled. Optimized gear only makes a small difference, and it will rarely affect the actual outcome of matches.

 

so a question... why do top 3 people a) go for 230 people first and b) first impression assume you are throwing.

 

no its not voodoo its a trash crutch that like so many things in swtor is inadequate at what its supposed to do. bolster comes down to 2 things. its bolsters mastery, power, end and gives a slight boost according to your side stats. the boost is a secondary bolster, for ex: 1 alacrity enhancement gets maybe 100 more alacrity per. (as long as the gear piece is under bolster level.) this is a rough number, but created for examples sake. but.. something that top 3s, golds, and many normal players too, we understand that bolster is not designed to carry you. it is designed to give you minimal coverage, this is what it was created for. do you honestly believe in 2019 they ever got around redoing bolster so that it was not minimal coverage? the original bolster punished f2p gear level (green and blue) and if you go into a MM fp, you hover "bolster" it will say "you are bolstered to the minimum level for mmfp" it is a crutch. it is not a means to an end.

 

but back to your question, how exactly does it affect your damage reduction? it doesnt. no what it does is it lacks any kind of bolster. now, when I said you "resist" things dk on 70 sorc, that is very important. becaue the reverse is true, and you can see it, on pts right now, and in regs. when a debolstered 70 hits a level 17 "champion" they obliterate them. its not even a fight. this same concept works in pvp, when you are in full top gear and you hit someone in 230 (outside of bolster) their dcds dont save them. and dcds work off of damage reduction... which doesnt scale in regs. the assumtion that gear does matter is based on .

 

what all this boils down to is a simple question. find top 3 players and ask him honestly... "can you win consistently in 230s?" and the answer will always be the same, a comical no. I know this because I do actually have contact with these people, and I have asked the question.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Seterade

[JediMasterAlex]

You either don't have a geared toon or you're lying. Its literally night and day between my 258 main and my alts wearing 230.

 

My main has been in min/maxed 258 since March I believe, maybe April.

 

so a question... why do top 3 people a) go for 230 people first and b) first impression assume you are throwing.

 

I've answered this question many times. The reason you target people in 230 gear, especially when they don't have a stim, has nothing whatsoever to do with the gear itself. Being in that kind of gear indicates that the player lacks experience in ranked, and honestly the game in general, so they are probably the easiest kill. I've personally been burned a few times by doing this, because it turned out that the person was actually very good. Just last night there was a sorc in 242 gear that we decided to test, and he was quite good, so we lost the round. He used his dcds properly and kited well regardless of the item rating on his gear. The next round we focused someone else.

 

And I've never seen anyone accuse someone of throwing just because of their gear.

 

what all this boils down to is a simple question. find top 3 players and ask him honestly... "can you win consistently in 230s?" and the answer will always be the same, a comical no. I know this because I do actually have contact with these people, and I have asked the question.

 

I have literally seen gold players win in 230-240 gear many times. In fact, most of the best players are still in 248 gear, maybe with a 252 weapon. Every top tier player that I've seen talk about gear has always laughed at the suggestion that gear matters in pvp. I must confess, I am totally unconvinced by your argument that there are phantom stats that gear provides that bolster doesn't. We'll just have to agree to disagree I guess.

Edited October 3, 2019 by JediMasterAlex

[Rion_Starkiller]

One person in a group of 4 wearing 230-240 won't break a match, and players will think he's skilled simply because he doesn't die. It's a low bar with low expectations. Did they get any killing blows? Did they deal top tier dps?

 

How does a full 230-240 group of 4 vs a full 258 group perform?

 

And I will quote my previous post since everyone seems to be ignoring it:

230 gear vs a guy or team with 258 MH/OH is noticeable difference IMO. But the rest of the gear doesn't seem to be very important.

 

I think "skill" is also taking every (legal) advantage you can in a competition -- even gear.

[JediMasterAlex]

One person in a group of 4 wearing 230-240 won't break a match, and players will think he's skilled simply because he doesn't die. It's a low bar with low expectations. Did they get any killing blows? Did they deal top tier dps?

 

How does a full 230-240 group of 4 vs a full 258 group perform?

 

And I will quote my previous post since everyone seems to be ignoring it:

 

I think you're right that the weapons don't bolster properly. So that's fair, but then again, it's very easy to get a 252 weapon, so that's a non-issue for those that care.

 

Also, referring to my examples of people in 230-240 gear that can play, you can tell when someone knows how to play. No one gets top dps while under focus, or if you do it's almost always a losing effort. If you put 4 top players in 230 gear against 4 bad players in 258 gear, the team with the good players will stomp the team with bad players just as easily as if the gear was even. Remember, we are assuming under bolster here. If it was 230s vs. 258 in open world pvp, then yes, there would be a big difference.

[Lhancelot]

I think you're right that the weapons don't bolster properly.

 

What do you mean by this? How do they bolster then? And equipping a 252-258 MH, does that basically negate the usefulness of all other gear slot ratings right now with how bolster is working?

[JediMasterAlex]

What do you mean by this? How do they bolster then? And equipping a 252-258 MH, does that basically negate the usefulness of all other gear slot ratings right now with how bolster is working?

 

I'm pretty sure all the slots bolster independently, but that's where there is some mystery with bolster. As for the weapons, I believe it's the weapon damage itself that doesn't bolster, but the rest of the stats do.

[Rion_Starkiller]

The thing with weapons and off-hands is that the base weapon damage increases based on the tier in addition to all the other things. So a 258 MH/OH will deal more base damage, it will have increased Force/Tech power, and it will have increased stats -- as opposed to lesser gear.

 

IIRC, all gear, including weapons, is bolstered up to non-optimized 252's.

[Seterade]

230 main and offhand fury mara dpses at 3.5k on average. there are a lot of guessing games about bolster. Edited October 3, 2019 by Seterade

[Jarbarian]

Not true. I guarantee you, without a shred of doubt in my mind, that if you put everyone in the exact same gear, you would still lose at the same rate that you lose now, because you're clearly not good at pvp. I've never met a single good pvper that thinks gear matters in pvp. Seterade has a theory about damage reduction not bolstering or something, but I've never seen any evidence to support it.

 

Farsical at best.

 

I've never seen anyone get kicked purely because of their gear. They probably kicked you because you performed terribly and then made dumb excuses in chat. Just a guess.

 

Queue rated BGs in 230 gear, watch how fast they boot you out. I got booted out before the match started, by people who never played with me, simply because of my gear.

 

Don't tell me gear doesn't matter. That's horde manure.

[Skummy]

Gear matters in 5.0 reminds me of 1.0 alot after trying the pts 6.0 seems a step in the right direction but might become a **** show with the tacticals and amps. lol Edited October 3, 2019 by Skummy

[Seterade]

Farsical at best.

 

 

 

Queue rated BGs in 230 gear, watch how fast they boot you out. I got booted out before the match started, by people who never played with me, simply because of my gear.

 

Don't tell me gear doesn't matter. That's horde manure.

 

not actually possible in swtor. cant kick people before round timer starts

[Jarbarian]

not actually possible in swtor. cant kick people before round timer starts

 

True, they voted to kick me as soon as the match started.

[Banderal]

True, they voted to kick me as soon as the match started.

 

BTW, if they actually voted you out just for gear (or really for any reason other than you yourself were blatantly win trading or something), then report them.

 

I did that (reported, not vote kicked someone). Bioware remained silent about it, but I have it on pretty good authority (couple reports from other ranked players on these forums that I trust about it) that bioware did actually take some action. It might not have been as harsh as I would have liked but at least it was something.

[TrixxieTriss]

BTW, if they actually voted you out just for gear (or really for any reason other than you yourself were blatantly win trading or something), then report them.

 

I did that (reported, not vote kicked someone). Bioware remained silent about it, but I have it on pretty good authority (couple reports from other ranked players on these forums that I trust about it) that bioware did actually take some action. It might not have been as harsh as I would have liked but at least it was something.

 

Babe, he said BG, not arena. Anyone who boots another because of 230 gear in regs is a dick head.

 

But in saying that, you need 5 people on the team to vote to kick in an 8 man map. And when the vote to kick comes up, even the player being voted on sees it.

 

I can’t even get AKFers or throwers kicked when it’s legit. So I highly doubt the poster is describing the situation correctly or is just lying.

[Nickodemous]

I haven't played the game this expansion, after reaching lvl 70. I just started playing again recently, for several reasons. I tried doing some PvP in my old lvl 65, item level 208 gear. I don't feel like I am at a huge disadvantage. Comparing my numbers to those of well geared Marauders obviously reveals a disparity, but it's more than doable.

So does gear matter? Yes. Everyone knows this. But if one team consists of better players, I feel like that gives a greater edge than having the best available gear.

 

I have noticed the same thing with the old 208 gear. You are at less of a disadvantage with that gear vs. the 228/230 gear. There is a big difference between 230 and 252/258 also. I notice the difference less with dps productivity but have experienced a big difference as far as survivability.

[Metthew]

So, while my main is 258 and my alt snipers slingers are all 250+, the rest of my characters are "mildly optimised" 230 geared. Here are my observations:

 

- Damage you deal is noticably lower. This is because of two things: weapon damage does not bolster properly (as far as I know), so a 230 mainhand is a somewhat noticable reduction to damage. Going to Ossus and spending 1.5k components to get a 252 mainhand really offset this, however. Still, I managed to pull 5.2k on a completely 230 geared SS slinger over in NA though, so I think the damage difference is at most 10-15%.

- You simply do not have enough tertiary stats in 230 sets. Perhaps augmenting for crit / alac the 230 gear would help with it, but I have not tryharded that much.

- It feels like I take more damage - that may simply be because people tend to really focus the 230 geared person in ranked too, though.

- Most importantly, skill > gear: The characters I didn't get silver rated on, it was definitely more a question of what I did wrong in arenas, and not a question of losing because of gear. If you're sub-1200/1300 rated on your 230 geared characters, you should look into yourself for the problem.

 

I really think that the bolster code needs a look back into it.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Metthew

[Lhancelot]

So, while my main is 258 and my alt snipers slingers are all 250+...

 

I just stuck a 258 MH on my sorc healer and it seems like not only is my healing output increased, I feel tankier, lol. I don't know maybe it's psychological. I mean I am surely noticing better survivability now maybe that's because my output is better with the 258 now versus my old 248 MH.

 

It's so hard to really tell without proper number crunching though. Too bad nothing is out there that actually can explain the nuances and details to bolster and just how much it improves performance depending on what gears are being bolstered.

 

This makes me want to craft a Offhand if the MH seems to have improved my performance so much. Anyone know if offhand wieldables increase performance much or would the improvement be negligible and not worth it?

 

(I aint doing Ossus so the only option I got is to craft stuff which is fine, I can craft a Offhand no problem.)

[JediMasterAlex]

So, while my main is 258 and my alt snipers slingers are all 250+, the rest of my characters are "mildly optimised" 230 geared. Here are my observations:

 

- Damage you deal is noticably lower. This is because of two things: weapon damage does not bolster properly (as far as I know), so a 230 mainhand is a somewhat noticable reduction to damage. Going to Ossus and spending 1.5k components to get a 252 mainhand really offset this, however. Still, I managed to pull 5.2k on a completely 230 geared SS slinger over in NA though, so I think the damage difference is at most 10-15%.

- You simply do not have enough tertiary stats in 230 sets. Perhaps augmenting for crit / alac the 230 gear would help with it, but I have not tryharded that much.

- It feels like I take more damage - that may simply be because people tend to really focus the 230 geared person in ranked too, though.

- Most importantly, skill > gear: The characters I didn't get silver rated on, it was definitely more a question of what I did wrong in arenas, and not a question of losing because of gear. If you're sub-1200/1300 rated on your 230 geared characters, you should look into yourself for the problem.

 

I really think that the bolster code needs a look back into it.

 

Mostly well put. The reason you're seeing less tertiary stats is because it gives you mastery 236 augments in the bolster. If you got some 228 augs, you could customize your stats with a bolster terminal, and you'd end up with the same amount of tertiary stats as 252 plus 236 augs would provide, at least roughly.

 

It's also worth noting that you're taking the extreme, as I and others have, talking about 230 gear. It's incredibly fast and easy to get a 252 mainhand and the rest of your gear 248. It's what I'd say most of the people in ranked are still in (maybe a few 258 pieces here or there, but still relatively few in full 258s, at least on SF). So it's not like there's some huge barrier to get a bit more gear if for some reason you "feel weaker" in 230s.

[Lhancelot]

Mostly well put. The reason you're seeing less tertiary stats is because it gives you mastery 236 augments in the bolster. If you got some 228 augs, you could customize your stats with a bolster terminal, and you'd end up with the same amount of tertiary stats as 252 plus 236 augs would provide, at least roughly.

 

It's also worth noting that you're taking the extreme, as I and others have, talking about 230 gear. It's incredibly fast and easy to get a 252 mainhand and the rest of your gear 248. It's what I'd say most of the people in ranked are still in (maybe a few 258 pieces here or there, but still relatively few in full 258s, at least on SF). So it's not like there's some huge barrier to get a bit more gear if for some reason you "feel weaker" in 230s.

 

NM I got an answer.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Lhancelot