You Can't Change Your Advanced Class!?!?!

[zerobounds]

I fail to see the problem with this.

 

Everyone would be the same and could change their character at any time.

 

Lots of issues there from a design QA standpoint.

[Wrathoran]

in my own idea, it is perfect like it is, you should never be allowed to change. For the purpose of the "im not able to decide" people, AC should be changeable twice from 10 to 20, after that it should be permanent.

 

3 days of work to be lvl 18? thats a bit of an exageration

[Wrathoran]

1) Because it would allow a single character to fulfil all roles in the entire game.

2) Because no other game MMO-formulaic game allows you to switch classes.

3) Because it would reduce the number of available classes to 4 from 8.

4) Because it would discourage rerolling.

5) Because it would discourage experiencing the different paths available in any single class reroll (because there would be no incentive to reroll the same class to begin with).

 

These may not all be valid from your point of view, but they're definitely viable from the developer's point of view. It just so happens that I agree with all of them, to boot.

 

i do agree witth that +1

 

its not ok to level as dps then change to a great tank. Then after that people will have to catter in special roles for the raid since they can change when they would want to be let say an operative dps , the guild would make them change for snipers.

 

its perfect as it is.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Wrathoran

[Stepsson]

I fail to see the problem with this.

From EA/Bioware POV.

 

One char who can change between all roles will mean less time spent in the game to accomplish the content for all players.

1. Less play time per player == Less time before people get tired of the game
   
2. Less time before people getting tired of the game == Less players in the game
   
3. Less players in the game == Less money for EA/Bioware
   
4. Less money for EA/Bioware == Less time spent developing the game
   
5. Less time spent developing the game == Less content delivered to the players
   
6. Less content delivered == Less players in the game
   
7. Less players in the game, repeat from 3.
   

[indigo_dc]

1) Because it would allow a single character to fulfil all roles in the entire game.

2) Because no other game MMO-formulaic game allows you to switch classes.

3) Because it would reduce the number of available classes to 4 from 8.

4) Because it would discourage rerolling.

5) Because it would discourage experiencing the different paths available in any single class reroll (because there would be no incentive to reroll the same class to begin with).

 

These may not all be valid from your point of view, but they're definitely viable from the developer's point of view. It just so happens that I agree with all of them, to boot.

 

Considering the posters points above one at a time -

 

1) A single character fulfilling all roles is no bad thing. It's good for those characters who like flexibility over specialisation. For those people who dont have time for dozens of alts and want to invest time in one character, and be rewarded for that investment. When you say this you make it sound like one char and tank, heal and dps at the same time which is patently untrue. And furthermore, having hybrid classes that allow this type of gameplay are also a staple of other MMOs - sorry son, you can't have it both ways...

 

2) I agree, other games don't allow you to switch classes. They don't also force you to play for tens of hours to get to the class selection stage. They also have detailed information as to what the classes can do in and out of game so a player can make an educated decision before committing the time and effort. The AC system is backwards - you put the time and effort in first, only to find out you don't actually like it or it isn't what you expected.

 

3) You can't have it both ways, you can't say that the playstyle of one spec is totally different to a different spec in the same AC, yet when AC's are effectively removed cry "oh you're removing classes". That's absolute nonsense, if AC locking is removed you don't LOSE the other specs, indeed the exact opposite happens, it means paying players have the freedom to choose how they want to play the game, when they want to play the game. The fraction of players willing to put in days of gameplay to "roll another alt" are very small, remember as a poster on this forum you are a tiny fraction of the gameplaying community and your views are quite insignificant in the grand scheme of things. If it discourages rerolling, it's not going to stop altaholics playing. Who cares if the game only has four classes, if the specs are as varied as you claim then allowing players to embrace MORE of them on one character means more happy players and more variety.

 

4) Why is that a problem? Because you like rerolling? Not everyone does. I certainly don't, I don't have the time or inclination to see the class story for other sith classes, let alone republic. I CERTAINLY don't have the patience to watch the sith inquisitor one develop AGAIN just so I can do a different role. Please consider the thoughts and feelings of others rather than simply be selfish. Rerolling doesn't matter to everyone.

 

5) This is essentially the same point as #4. However let's face it, the stories are essentially fixed and the only real variance is whether you choose light or dark. The outcome to flashpoints and missions change SLIGHTLY in some cases, but after it's finished, you're still the same - it just affects the colour of your lightsaber.

 

The AC system for me is the single biggest failing of this game. It's not QQing or whining, it's a general grievance and frankly any reply that is along those lines is a waste of everyone's time and effort - please, grow up and dont do that - let's discuss it like adults. You only complain about QQing because you can't construct a meaningful, valid argument.

 

I came to SWTOR totally and utterly new. I didn't play in the beta, or even really know it was coming out until a friend suggested we join and play together. I understood, however, the trinity mechanic of tank/healer/dps. I liked the idea of being able to fulfil any role to give me flexibility in how I played the game, and to increase it's longevity. I understand some choices in games need to be permanent and deserve due consideration.

 

My complaint is how woefully presented this choice is.

 

It's very implicit, even for an SWTOR or MMO beginner, that character creation defines what your character will look like. However, my complaint is that the implementation of these advanced classes AFTER this breakpoint is massively confusing.

 

There is very little in the way of online information regarding how these classes work, and trust me - none of it I found after hours of searching categorically spells out that an AC choice is permanent. The best I have found are some hints that it's permanent. Articles say that Sith Inquisitors, my class of choice, can tank/DPS/heal. They then mention that for tanking/healing, you need to be a Sith Asssassin which does xyz... for healing.... and so on. The official, bioware literature on this matter is tremendously vague. However, it's very clear based on feedback that this is really not that clear. In fact, the ONLY point I have seen this stated anywhere is in game, at level 10. Of course I might have missed this, but the fact numerous people are missing this is a sign of extremely poor design and advertising of said design. Find any SWTOR guide and you'll see matrices of classes and roles, with Inquisitor ticking all boxes. That implies strongly that an inquisitor can do all roles does it not? Bioware offers very little in the way of clarification in this matter.

 

In fact... looking at their class videos, the Sith Inquisitor one is a prime example of how confusing this is, why so many players are falling foul of it and how it's being highlighted as a very bad design choice.

 

The video shows you start out as an inquisitor, kills a few people then shows the sorceror or assassin paths. Sorceror first - lots of force lightning ensues and they get their top tier gear. Then... the video BACKS DOWN THE PROGRESSION PATH IT HIGHLIGHTED and shows the assassin! Go watch the video! The promo material itself suggests you can back down one tree and into another. My friend who plays WoW heavily and tracked this game with a good degree of enthusiasm was convinced Assassin and Sorceror were two different specs from the same class. I indeed believed that "Advanced Class" was a byword for spec.... but that's because that's what the prevailing available info for someone not utterly intimate in the game's development suggests!

 

Those of you on the "it's clearly announced, but lets discuss" side of things please consider things like your previous experience with SWTOR, perhaps in the beta? How closely did you follow development? How you might feel if your extensive research pre-game led clearly to one conclusion only for the actual implementation to be radically different. And finally consider that this topic keeps coming up, it's not going away - you might not care, but people don't like this. There aren't 12 million subscribers, there are 1 million, and this kind of thing turns players off the game completely... and the game dies. It's not an accomodating design feature, it turns players off when you invest days of time only to not fully realise the implication. Days of time, yes. You might skip through this stupidly quickly but not everyone does. Don't assume you are the majority. And for a game so heavily reliant on story, your solution to this is "roll an alt and skip the story"? Foolish thinking!

 

My friend has quit SWTOR after having played for three days over xmas/new year to get to level 12 (bear in mind that server congestion means we can't all play 20 hours a day too). He thought a sith warrior could either specialise in DPS, or tank. Now he's locked into a marauder that basically DPS's in three slightly different ways.

 

I put it to you that when you consider this without your blinkered, fanboy hats on, with year's of pre-knowledge others don't have, the SW TOR Advanced Class system is severly lacking and an example of poor game design.

 

I for one champion the revision of this system as speedily as possible.

 

If you want TLDR version I expect you're a QQing muppet and despise you, but in a nutshell -

 

1) If AC are to be considered "true" classes this kind of binding decision should be made clear to you, before you even launch the game.

2) Official bioware info on it's websites strongly implies AC choice is not permanent.

3) The only official warning that AC choice is permanent is made after tens of hours of gameplay.

4) AC active restrict player fun and shorten subscriber lifetime, particularly given the single largest selling point is the storyline.

[Stepsson]

Tens of hours, what a pain that must've been for you.

 

I know it's not as fun going through the same stuff again, takes about 3 hours hitting your spacebar through dialogues for the starting planet. Lvl 1-10 and make a new AC.

[VanorDM]

In WOW you can change your warrior from Tank to melee dps. or your paladin from heals to tank or even DPS.

 

And you can do the same thing in SWTOR.

 

My Shadow can be either a DPS or Tank spec all I have to do is pay the credits to respec him.

 

Changing from a Shadow to a Sage however is a whole lot bigger deal then changing specs, because the two classes are really not anything like each other.

[VanorDM]

I completly agree. Stop calling this 2 diffferent classes, they are not. There is more difference between druid specs then any advanced classes in tor.

 

You clearly haven't been playing SWTOR for very long then.

 

Again lets look at Shadow vs Sage.

 

Shadow - Melee Tank/DPS

Sage - Ranged Healer/DPS.

 

Are you honestly going to try and say those two things are effectively the same?

[Hbound]

I love the AC system in SWTOR.

 

You get to play until level 10 with a little bit of everything for your class. As a Smuggler/IA, you play a little bit with cover to decide if you like the mechanic. As a Consular/Inquisitor, you play a little bit with your lightsaber and a little bit with spells, to discover which you prefer. Then at level 10, you make a choice that divides your class into two advanced classes based on your preferred playstyle! Yay!

 

Not sure why anybody would complain that you can't switch advanced classes. It is identical to wanting to switch your Warrior into a Paladin in WoW, which no sane person ever clamored for.

 

Also not sure why anyone suggesting we make the decision upon character creation would think that would fix the problem. So you create a Sage, get to level 10+ and decide it's not for you, now you have to reroll a Shadow? Or, you create a Consular, get to level 10 and decide you like melee combat better than casting, and pick Shadow. Which sounds better to you?

 

EDIT: Also, to the above wall of text poster who said his friend rolled a Marauder thinking he could switch between Tanking and DPS, can he read? Because they explicitly tell you that you a) can't switch advanced classes and b) the Marauder is a pure DPS class. If he really wanted to switch between Tank and DPS, he should have, you know, picked the only other option, the Juggernaut. Which can do both of those things.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Hbound

[Faolon]

I just want to say that each of the advanced classes plays so differently that many people would fail miserably if they had the ability to switch.

 

 

I've got 2 Sith Warriors at the same level(34). One Juggernaut Immortal, the other Marauder Annihilation.

 

 

If I go into a Warzone, for example, with my Juggernaut and keep the same mentality I use with my Marauder, I'll fail horribly. My Juggernaut's strengths are not the same as my Marauder's. Nor are my Marauders the same as my Juggernaut's. If I try and do some warzones as a marauder, but keeping the Jugg mentality, I'll get destroyed constantly.

 

It's even different in PvE, in case you're wondering. My Marauder has to drop everything fast, so Quinn can keep me running. My Juggernaut just has to survive everything so Jaesa can do the killing.

In Flashpoints the priority systems are completely different.

 

 

So giving people the ability to switch ACs would simply cause a ****-storm of whining about how weak this other AC is compared to the other, when in reality it just requires you to completely rethink the way you approach the game.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Faolon

[VanorDM]

1) If AC are to be considered "true" classes this kind of binding decision should be made clear to you, before you even launch the game.

 

That's silly there's no reason to say that before the time comes to pick your AC. Few if any are going to pay attention to something like that at lvl 1 or 2.

 

Better to make it very, very clear when time comes to pick that you can't change your mind.

 

2) Official bioware info on it's websites strongly implies AC choice is not permanent.

 

That's such grasping at straws... When the time comes to make a choice it's very, very clear that it's a one time deal. If you ignore this, that's your fault. The fact that the progression movie showed both AC's is simply isn't a valid argument.

 

3) The only official warning that AC choice is permanent is made after tens of hours of gameplay.

 

Tens? You can do it in 2-3 hours, perhaps 5-6 hours if you listen to the dialogs.

[Skyeblade]

I would have thought you would have found it out when you select your advanced class and the game tells you you can't change it.

/thread

[NeoOsiris]

That's why I say that they should change it so that people pick their class at level 1, even if the first 9 levels have the same skills. Then this sort of thing would not be an issue. EQ2 had this sort of leveling system at release, and it was eventually changed.

 

Or people just need to actually read **** before they click yes. DERP!!!!!

[CaineDVamp]

There is very little in the way of online information regarding how these classes work, and trust me - none of it I found after hours of searching categorically spells out that an AC choice is permanent.

 

 

Ya, I would have looked IN GAME before searching online. That and the big "WARNING! You cannot undo this" message when you choose.

 

I guess it says a lot about the culture of the world we live in. We're so pampered that we think if we just stomp our feet loud enough we will get what we want. Whatever happened to "You make your choices and you live with them"?

 

Personally, I like the fact that once I make the choice between Commando/Vanguard, I'm stuck. I can "play" like a tank, but not really designed for it, but I can heal or put out dps, so its a trade off.

 

Sort of sick of people trying to change this game into something that it isn't. I will be disappointed if this game implements the following:

 

A) LFG/LFR (ESPECIALLY cross-server) - what happened to good old "personality" and building relationships with the other people on your server?

 

B) Resetting Advanced Class - NO PLEASE DO NOT CAVE! Stick to your guns and make the choices you make for your character mean something. Otherwise, just have 2 classes Jedi/Not and let us a la carte our skills and talents, because that's what you will be doing.

 

C) Combat Parsing/UI Mods/Damage Meters. Don't do it. The day I hear "DPS Meter Plz" in party is the day i rethink subscription.

 

Just some thoughts, troll/flame away

[Kilograms]

When I realised I hated my bounty hunter (level 30) and re-rolled as an assassin my goal was to get caught back up to the rest of my friends. Some were 30 plus, and others were still 10, (bought the game after the 20th). I'm not a person that enjoys long drawn out stories in video games, since I'd rather spend the time reading a book than watching an interactive movie.

 

I did levels 1-10 in just over an hour.

 

I truly feel sorry for the people saying they took upwards of 5 hours to do that.

[Tewnam]

There is very little in the way of online information regarding how these classes work, and trust me - none of it I found after hours of searching categorically spells out that an AC choice is permanent. The best I have found are some hints that it's permanent. Articles say that Sith Inquisitors, my class of choice, can tank/DPS/heal. They then mention that for tanking/healing, you need to be a Sith Asssassin which does xyz... for healing.... and so on. The official, bioware literature on this matter is tremendously vague. However, it's very clear based on feedback that this is really not that clear. In fact, the ONLY point I have seen this stated anywhere is in game, at level 10. Of course I might have missed this, but the fact numerous people are missing this is a sign of extremely poor design and advertising of said design. Find any SWTOR guide and you'll see matrices of classes and roles, with Inquisitor ticking all boxes. That implies strongly that an inquisitor can do all roles does it not? Bioware offers very little in the way of clarification in this matter.

 

SWTOR Website, Advanced Classes:

As your character becomes more seasoned through adventure, you will be given the opportunity to undertake one of two Advanced Classes. This decision is equally as important as choosing your initial class at character creation. Your choice will not only make your character more distinct and powerful, but will also help further define the role you wish to play in Star Wars: The Old Republic.

 

Seems clear enough to me. Perhaps nothing explicitly says that you cannot change advanced classes, but nothing says you can either. That's an assumption. Furthermore, it clearly states that the decision is just as important as your base class decision. Do you normally expect to be able to change your base class in games?

[Tytra]

I've been playing the Imperial Agent for a few days now. At level 10, after much consideration, I decided to go operative over sniper because it seemed like a cool class that snuck around and then stabbed people. However, after awhile I decided that operative was much too slow and had pitiful damage output, so I just thought to myself "well I tried out operative and didn't like it, I should probably go sniper". That's when I found out that YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE YOUR ADVANCED CLASS. Why wouldn't Bioware let players change their advanced class. At this point I was level 18 and if I wanted to go sniper I would have to repeat about 3 days of work. I have loved this game so far, but this is the first major issue that I have run into. I hate myself for saying this, but WoW did it better.

 

Played right an operative can throw out some very very good damage. Prob is most times their not played right Go into pvp and find a high producting operative and learn from what they do. I had a lvl 15 operative doing over 250k damage and 40+ kills. Its a pretty hard class to learn but once you do they can shutdown most of the other classes. Hell they even get more ranged then assassins/shadows, so def dont go that route if you plan on rerolling.

[Axxar]

I don't think it's a great idea to let players change their class. The whole point of having classes is to specialise in different directions so everyone isn't the same.

[OzmarTOR]

That's when I found out that YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE YOUR ADVANCED CLASS.

 

[Nelson] Ha ha! [/Nelson]

 

-Ozmar the Amused

[Lexlo]

Grinding to 10 takes a whole 2 hours. Just re-roll.

[Slaxon]

You should have either listened to the dialogue or read the boxes that came up when it came time to choose. You were warned.

[itsjaven]

The only unfortunate part about really choosing your class at level 10, is by the time they might realize the class they picked isn't right for them, they're already invested in the class story arch. Mind you, classes don't really start getting their defining abilities until their late teens into their 20s, so it's substantially more than "just 2 hours" of rehashing content.

[Denskoo]

This isn't comparable to WoW since WoW did not have advanced class selection. For WoW to be compared, it would be like if you initially picked a scout class then at level 10 had to choose between Hunter and Rogue.

 

It would be helpful if this game had a bit more in game information on the choice when or before you get it though. But there are only two options per class and you should have a pretty good idea if you'll like the AC choice by the late teens. Rerolling from that point isn't the end of the world. You should only have to do it once since for any future characters you would have learned from your experience and will do more research on the AC options for a class to be sure.

[MrOuija]

I've thought about this.. come to the conclusion that it's a good idea. As a Sage and a Shadow are two entirely different classes!

 

To take WoW as your reference point: It would be the same as "respeccing" from Rogue to Mage.

 

However:

I wish they would let you begin at lvl 10 and chose your advanced class after you've progressed up to a certain point in the game. Of course you would only be able to chose between Sage/Shadow if you became a Consular.

[VanorDM]

It would be helpful if this game had a bit more in game information on the choice when or before you get it though.

 

I'm not sure how much more info they can give. The two boxes have a fairly decent "thumbnail" of the class. You can also examine the two AC's before picking and see all 3 skill trees for both classes.

 

So what more can be said about the class then is already there?

 

However once again I will say that I would support a one time AC respec that expires at lvl 16. By then you should have a fairly decent idea of what the class is like and if you're going to enjoy playing it or not.