General consensus of 6.0 as it stands now (9/24/19)

[Lscarlet]

...don’t care if kids are being groomed to be gamblers or that parts of society become addicted to the gambling in their games...

 

Effects from sutile changes are perceived decades after...

[TrixxieTriss]

Effects from sutile changes are perceived decades after...

 

Yep, that’s why I think this is an EA strategic decision. They aren’t dumb, they know how to play the “game” so to speak. It wouldn’t surprise me if they are getting people who specialise in addiction behaviours to help them (EA execs, not devs) strategise and plan for the future.

They got caught out bad with SW Battlefront 2 because they misread this generation of gamers. If it hadn’t been SW and there hadn’t be such outrage about it, they would have gotten away with it and I dare say we’d have p2w loot boxes in swtor by now.

They won’t make that mistake again, they want to make sure everyone is desensitised to RNG on RNG to allow paid loot box mechanics to slip through with less outrage in the future. They are just too lucrative for them to give up on the model for good.

Reminds me of the tabaco industry.

Edited October 4, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

[DarthSpuds]

At this point I can only hope that the story doesn't completely suck.

 

It likely will, because we still have the same story team that thought KotFE/ET was a good Star Wars story; and made sense for all classes.

 

The root cause of pretty much all of SWTOR's current (and long-term ongoing) problems are that the Dev Team and Game Leadership are a) out of touch with their players and - and perhaps more importantly - b) out of touch with the IP.

 

No one who knows anything at all about Star Wars would ever have thought that KotFE/ET was an appropriate Star Wars story-arc. It was was very mediocre, but almost OK-ish in places as a generic Sci-Fi story-arc, but it wasn't even close to what was appropriate for Star Wars. The proof that Bioware / EA finally got this through their thick skulls is that the current story trend is to get back to a genuine Star Wars story-arc.

 

I've been running TTRPG Star Wars (WEG D6) off and on since the 1st Edition of the game came out and 95% of KotFE/ET would never have made it past my waste-paper basket, because if I had served that rubbish up as Star Wars my players would have abandoned the game - which is, ironically, exactly what the players did with SWTOR.

 

All The Best

Edited October 4, 2019 by DarthSpuds
Typos

[JediQuaker]

Nobody in their right mind can say that RNG isn’t some form of gambling. (Even a kinder surprise is a form of gambling)

You seem to have very odd definition of gambling. If you're going to say that a Kinder Egg is gambling, you might as well say that a Christmas present is "gambling", since it seems as though you consider it gambling any time you don't know what's inside. So, no more Christmas, birthday, wedding, etc, presents because that's gambling? Certainly no giving Kinder Eggs as presents since that would be double the gamble. 🤔

To me "gambling" involves the idea of taking a risk to make a profit. So, in a sense, you can stretch it to include loot boxes because people often do spend real money to "profit" by getting a shiny thing they like. But to me, for example, spending my monthly CC allotment to buy cartel packs, is basically just taking a "gift" (the CC) and turning it into random presents.

I certainly don't make any "real" profit from cartel packs, although i could make imaginary credits from selling things on the GTN. (Which makes me wonder - would rolling the dice and landing on Boardwalk, so I can buy it with Monopoly money, be gambling? Is playing Monopoly gambling?)

[Balameb]

You seem to have very odd definition of gambling. If you're going to say that a Kinder Egg is gambling, you might as well say that a Christmas present is "gambling", since it seems as though you consider it gambling any time you don't know what's inside. So, no more Christmas, birthday, wedding, etc, presents because that's gambling? Certainly no giving Kinder Eggs as presents since that would be double the gamble. 🤔

I have some bad news for you. You parents lied to you: there is no Santa, they are the ones giving you presents. Have you been a good boy? Its seems not...

 

Joke aside, what horrible examples that makes no sense. Tell me, what do the ones giving presents do:

A- go to the store, give money to the seller and tell them just put whatever you feel like in a box, it does not matter what it is.

B- Buy what they want give.

 

Gambling is not just not knowing what is inside, but if you spend something on it then it is.

[Lhancelot]

Yeah I got to say my personal experience with RNG crates on SWTOR really seem nothing like actual gambling.

 

Number one, for gambling to really get a hold of you, I'd think the reward would have to really set the dopamine receptors off when it happened, and that doesn't occur with progression gears being "won" when opening a loot box or whatever, because it's not a big deal in the first place.

 

All RNG does is add annoyance mixed with beaten down surprise that something actually dropped that you need, not a "WOOHOO I WON!!!!" feeling when you get something really rare and coveted like winning a jackpot at a casino.

 

The problem is they added RNG to NORMAL progression gears rofl. There's nothing special about what you "win" lol.

 

When you actually gamble, you do it for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and that feeling just isn't replicated at all here. That's my opinion with RNG being gambling, I don't see the connection if I am going to be truthful.

 

They ought to remove the majority of the RNG, not because it will cause further social degradation of our young players but because it's effing frustrating and NOT enjoyable, it sucks and makes this game suck.

 

No one likes working for random pay and that's what this system is doing, making people spend their time working for random gears and items. How frustrating is that? Very effing frustrating.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Lhancelot

[JediQuaker]

Joke aside, what horrible examples that makes no sense. Tell me, what do the ones giving presents do:

A- go to the store, give money to the seller and tell them just put whatever you feel like in a box, it does not matter what it is.

B- Buy what they want give.

 

Gambling is not just not knowing what is inside, but if you spend something on it then it is.

So, are you saying that giving Kinder Eggs as presents is gambling?

Your analogy is a bit flawed because people could give a Kinder Egg, or a loot box, or whatever, as gift, without also knowing exactly what's inside. (A don't forget the common birthday Piniata. 🙄 )

[olagatonjedi]

IGambling is not just not knowing what is inside, but if you spend something on it then it is.

Technically every day of our lives is a gamble, so RNG is innate to life, much more than SWTOR is.

[Balameb]

So, are you saying that giving Kinder Eggs as presents is gambling?

Your analogy is a bit flawed because people could give a Kinder Egg, or a loot box, or whatever, as gift, without also knowing exactly what's inside. (A don't forget the common birthday Piniata. 🙄 )

Unlike certain person that bothers this topic and others I used to think you were just a little bit obtuse or maybe just bitter. Now i think you are just trolling these topics just because you don't like people saying what they feel about the game as you don't share the opinion.

You dare calling my analogy flawed? After your analogies/examples go off topic? I'm speaking of spending, you are speaking of gifts.

[JediQuaker]

I'm speaking of spending, you are speaking of gifts.

I think we know who the trolls are here. Example:

Joke aside, what horrible examples that makes no sense. Tell me, what do the ones giving presents do:

A- go to the store, give money to the seller and tell them just put whatever you feel like in a box, it does not matter what it is.

Yes, this is talking about spending .... spending on gifts. Which you now purposely ignore just to give a fallacious reply.

Edited October 4, 2019 by JediQuaker

[Balameb]

I think we know who the trolls are here. Example:

 

Yes, this is talking about spending .... spending on gifts. Which you now purposely ignore just to give a fallacious reply.

No man. You are the one that started the gift nonsense. Trixie was talking about "kinder surprise" but YOU reply talking about GIFTS so i showed you how that YOUR GIFTS examples made no sense. Then, i even left one free line i posted this:

Gambling is not just not knowing what is inside, but if you spend something on it then it is.

Since i showed first how buying a gift is not RNG, how in the world did you manage to think i was saying that spending on gifts is RNG.

 

Forget the gift part you started. Spending on something you don't know what is inside (and expecting a result, of course) is gambling.

[TrixxieTriss]

You seem to have very odd definition of gambling. If you're going to say that a Kinder Egg is gambling, you might as well say that a Christmas present is "gambling", since it seems as though you consider it gambling any time you don't know what's inside. So, no more Christmas, birthday, wedding, etc, presents because that's gambling? Certainly no giving Kinder Eggs as presents since that would be double the gamble. 🤔

To me "gambling" involves the idea of taking a risk to make a profit. So, in a sense, you can stretch it to include loot boxes because people often do spend real money to "profit" by getting a shiny thing they like. But to me, for example, spending my monthly CC allotment to buy cartel packs, is basically just taking a "gift" (the CC) and turning it into random presents.

I certainly don't make any "real" profit from cartel packs, although i could make imaginary credits from selling things on the GTN. (Which makes me wonder - would rolling the dice and landing on Boardwalk, so I can buy it with Monopoly money, be gambling? Is playing Monopoly gambling?)

 

With the Kinda surprise, I was quoting from an article regarding the loot box enquire in Britain. I’m sorry I can find it again as I didn’t save it. But a political person used it as a base example.

[TrixxieTriss]

Yeah I got to say my personal experience with RNG crates on SWTOR really seem nothing like actual gambling.

 

Number one, for gambling to really get a hold of you, I'd think the reward would have to really set the dopamine receptors off when it happened, and that doesn't occur with progression gears being "won" when opening a loot box or whatever, because it's not a big deal in the first place.

 

All RNG does is add annoyance mixed with beaten down surprise that something actually dropped that you need, not a "WOOHOO I WON!!!!" feeling when you get something really rare and coveted like winning a jackpot at a casino.

 

The problem is they added RNG to NORMAL progression gears rofl. There's nothing special about what you "win" lol.

 

When you actually gamble, you do it for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and that feeling just isn't replicated at all here. That's my opinion with RNG being gambling, I don't see the connection if I am going to be truthful.

 

They ought to remove the majority of the RNG, not because it will cause further social degradation of our young players but because it's effing frustrating and NOT enjoyable, it sucks and makes this game suck.

 

No one likes working for random pay and that's what this system is doing, making people spend their time working for random gears and items. How frustrating is that? Very effing frustrating.

 

See, they’ve already started to desensitise you to the fact that RNG is a form or gambling when you are using in game currency to buy the stuff from a vendor or reroll amplifiers.

 

So what they are doing is working and EAs strategy has merit if people are already thinking RNG isn’t gambling.

 

Anyone remember when the tobacco industry had everyone believing that smoking was good for you? I remember going to the doctor as a kid and he’d be smoking away.

The industry had a motto, get them early as kids so they have brand loyalty and will get hooked on them when they get older, it was nefarious and it took 40 years till people woke up to their lies.

 

RNG may not be gambling in the sense that you use real money to buy something and spin the wheel to see what you get.

But the core of it is you buy an item from the vendor with no idea what you will get, even though you really want a specific item. So you take a risk to see if you’ll get it.

Would you waste / gamble away those tech frags if you new you could go buy exactly what you wanted from another vendor for 100 extra frags?

I know I would rather know what I’m spending my currency on, wether it’s real money or fake game currency.

 

RNG in games was originally a mechanic to get you to play longer and partly addicted to the game (I know, I’ve got a friend with real game addictions problems they had to seek help with) And it was to get you addicted to the “thrill” of possibly winning what you want. You brain would register the endorphins when you win and reinforce the need to keep trying if you didn’t get the item you want. That’s how addiction works on the brain.

 

The problem was when Wilson came along and monetised it in FIFA instead of it just being an in game feature to get you to play longer. He changed it so you’d be paying more and paying longer regardless or how often you played.

 

We all know how bad the loot box fiasco was for EA and some other companies who were pushing the paid loot box hard. But EA are pushing back hard against regulators. They want to regulate themselves (that is an industry body statement). It’s like giving the Fox the key to the hen house, but he’s already living there for free so no one sees anything wrong with it,

 

That is what’s happening with the pervasiveness of RNG across this and other games. EA know they have to change people’s perception of what qualifies as a loot box. What better way to do that than to flood their games with RNG to desensitise everyone to it. Which I’m sorry to say, seems to be working on you 😢

[olagatonjedi]

RNG may not be gambling in the sense that you use real money to buy something and spin the wheel to see what you get.

But the core of it is you buy an item from the vendor with no idea what you will get, even though you really want a specific item. So you take a risk to see if you’ll get it.

Would you waste / gamble away those tech frags if you new you could go buy exactly what you wanted from another vendor for 100 extra frags?

I know I would rather know what I’m spending my currency on, wether it’s real money or fake game currency.

Couple things:

 

First, the in-game currency, in truth, doesnt even belong to you. EA/BW own all rights to anything you gain in game, so in essence, they are giving you free tokens to spend on their game. Your $15/mo is paying for access to said content and "belongings."

 

I appreciate the effort that Darev (?) made with his vending machine analogy, but its inaccurate. More appropriately, 6.0 vendors are exactly like Chuck E Cheese coming out and giving away free tickets to anyone spending the time to show up to acquire them. The cost of time and $15/mo is equivalent to the cost of time and gas money to go to Chuck E Cheese. With your pseudo-free tickets, you can select from a random collection of gifts that you may not want. Depending on the minimum-wage associate behind the prize counter, you may use your tickets to by the random-colored frisbee.

 

Secondly, you assume that the entire population doesnt understand the mechanics of the vendor. The swtor vendor specifically states - pay x amount, get RANDOM item. To expect anything else is naive or non-judged ignorance.

 

Third, you assume that everyone purchasing from the vendor has a specific item in mind. Many players will randomly select an item and take what they get because they play multiple alts. Not everyone is locked in on gearing 1 specific toon before anyone else. So to many players, it will be a good deal. They pay less and get an item they will fit to the specific toon that will use it, and progress either way.

 

Fourth, in conjunction with my first point, is that the only currency (read resource) being used by players is their time. And time once again applies to my analogy of RNG is involved in all of life, as you spend your time and never know what is in store from second to second going forward. Gambling is innately part of life.

 

SWTOR is less RNG than life, and therefore less gambling than life, and therefore these 6.0 changes are easily more tolerable when taken in context.

[Lscarlet]

SWTOR is less RNG than life, and therefore less gambling than life, and therefore these 6.0 changes are easily more tolerable when taken in context.

 

This answer is pure demagogy.

 

Being pragmatist this subject is resumed as follows:

...

2nd.- When the eternal grinding process turns into a work... It's like subverting a game into a kind of work it's not really the idea of enjoyment.

3rd.- Almost all the game mechanics are intended to make cash. I can understand this, up to a certain limit. Overstepping the mark it's not generally a good idea.

4th.- Abusing RNG it's abusing player patience. It works until it stops working and the player/payer flees.

....

 

Basicly it seems that 6.0 turns a game into a work. Most of people likes to play&enjoy but not to work in repetitive tasks day after day. Abuse of RNG and temporarity are the key factors to turn a game into such work. I'll test, watch and act accordingly, willing to spend my money in a game not in a work <- As many other players will do.

[Ardrossan]

This answer is pure demagogy.

 

Technically it's pure relativism, or perhaps even pure stoicism. The latter would explain why most of the forumbase despise that poster.

 

I would also quibble with the idea that your answer is supposed to be pragmatism in action, when it uses subjective values like the 'idea of enjoyment' and 'player patience', and makes vague, unsubstantiated assumptions like game mechanics making cash being understood 'up to a certain point'. That point apparently being, whatever I say it is.

[Lscarlet]

Technically it's pure relativism, or perhaps even pure stoicism

 

Nothing to argue to that answer.

 

About the rest, t's vague in purpose and intended to be read between the lines, just opposite to the assumption "That point apparently being, whatever I say it is". I'm not taking the measurements of enjoyment nor patience, I'm just stating that 'enjoyment' and 'patience' both concepts are real and both concepts contribute determining future line of action for people: to play or to flee.

[olagatonjedi]

2nd.- When the eternal grinding process turns into a work... It's like subverting a game into a kind of work it's not really the idea of enjoyment.

3rd.- Almost all the game mechanics are intended to make cash. I can understand this, up to a certain limit. Overstepping the mark it's not generally a good idea.

4th.- Abusing RNG it's abusing player patience. It works until it stops working and the player/payer flees.

Of course these are subjective observations, and vary from player to player.

[Lscarlet]

Of course these are subjective observations, and vary from player to player.

 

Cambridge Dictionary

Repetitive: Involving doing or saying the same thing several times, especially in a way that is boring

Expressed or happening in the same way many times: a repetitive task

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/repetitive

 

Random: Happening, done, or chosen by chance rather than according to a plan

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/random

 

Or... when to do repetitive tasks to get hapenings chosen by chance rather than accordingly to a plan is called RPG.

[Rion_Starkiller]

A repetitive task (repetition) is, in essence, a grind, no? Therefore, if a person is repetitive, then you could say he is a grind. If he's a grind, then he prefers to grind gear. Thus a repetitive/grind person should not be pro-RNG. 🤔🤔 Edited October 4, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Lscarlet]

Repetitive/ Repetition is, in essence, a grind, no? Therefore, if a person is repetitive, then you could say he is a grind. If he's a grind, then he prefers to grind gear. So I'm not sure why a repetitive person would be arguing for RNG.

 

If a person is simple, then you could say he lacks substance. If he lacks substance, then he prefers simple reasoning.

 

Absolutely not liking excessive random happenings.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Lscarlet

[olagatonjedi]

Cambridge Dictionary

Repetitive: Involving doing or saying the same thing several times, especially in a way that is boring

Expressed or happening in the same way many times: a repetitive task

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/repetitive

 

Random: Happening, done, or chosen by chance rather than according to a plan

 

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/random

 

Or... when to do repetitive tasks to get hapenings chosen by chance rather than accordingly to a plan is called RPG.

Explain the relevance please, since you quoted me.

[Rion_Starkiller]

If a person is simple, then you could say he lacks substance. If he lacks substance, then he prefers simple reasoning.

 

Absolutely not liking excessive random happenings.

 

Sorry sir, we only have chocolate OR vanilla ice cream. Mixing flavors is not allowed either.

[Lscarlet]

As Cambridge Dictionary states 'repetition' involves 'doing ... the same thing several times, especially in a way that is boring'. At some point, and depending on perception for every person, excesive repetition could end subverting a game into a kind of work, not exactly the idea of enjoyment but repetitive boring tasks. This is not subjective. Similar it's appliable to randomness, which accordingly to Cambridge Dictionary, makes 'happenings, done, or chosen by chance rather than according to a plan'. RPG involves process of structured decision-making and excess of randomness it's against that basic concept. Edited October 4, 2019 by Lscarlet

[MikeCobalt]

This answer is pure demagogy.

 

Being pragmatist this subject is resumed as follows:

...

2nd.- When the eternal grinding process turns into a work... It's like subverting a game into a kind of work it's not really the idea of enjoyment.

3rd.- Almost all the game mechanics are intended to make cash. I can understand this, up to a certain limit. Overstepping the mark it's not generally a good idea.

4th.- Abusing RNG it's abusing player patience. It works until it stops working and the player/payer flees.

....

 

Basicly it seems that 6.0 turns a game into a work. Most of people likes to play&enjoy but not to work in repetitive tasks day after day. Abuse of RNG and temporarity are the key factors to turn a game into such work. I'll test, watch and act accordingly, willing to spend my money in a game not in a work <- As many other players will do.

 

*Grinding*, shouldn't be the Purpose of the game. The adventures are the purpose, grinding is just a sideline players can choose for whatever reasons. *Lscarlet your 2nd point immediately reminded me of "ArchAge" with all of its "Work" and "Labor" system (Uughhhh). As I've said many times before I don't Grind and when it starts seeming like "Work" and the thrill is over.. I stop and play something else.

 

If the *Grind becomes a higher influence then the Fun I don't play. *Grinding for the purpose of small inconsequential gains is pointless (work) and when the story content starts requiring too much *Grinding* it becomes pointless and boring, who wants to pay for that? Now it seems SWTOR is turning farther away from story and single players and more into the group like every other internet game, why would I pay for a game that suits to others more then myself?

I don't feel Compelled to have the best gear in the game and it really wouldn't matter much if I did have it.

 

Requiring players to grind longer and longer will not make them stay online longer, infact quite the opposite, If I see the destination (Best Gear) is longer then I want, I wont even start. I'm a story player I didn't change before when the systems tried to enforce group and or PVP, I have much less inclination to change now. SWTOR opened with the Class Stories and still those are considered SWTOR best asset (despite the Coin to avoid them infavor of the Zakuul Failure) so now continuing to change the games direction will only drive away more players, those that have already decided against or left will never have the dedication (or Forgiveness) as the long timers or founders.