General consensus of 6.0 as it stands now (9/24/19)

[Lhancelot]

SWTOR is less RNG than life, and therefore less gambling than life, and therefore these 6.0 changes are easily more tolerable when taken in context.

 

Can't compare life to the game, totally non-applicable in this case regarding RNG. Games are for enjoyment, fun, RNG facet to life isn't created/crafted by devs like the game is.

[Lscarlet]

Lhancelot apart from that and as a side comment... life it's basically decission-making like RPG is. Good/Bad luck is heavily forged by decissions. Too often many people try to evade responsability about their decissions, claiming that good/bad luck is the main responsible of their lives. But we do not live in a quantum scale were randomness is general rule, we live and play in a macroscopic scale where decisions are cruzial. Edited October 4, 2019 by Lscarlet

[Lhancelot]

But we do not live in a quantum scale were randomness is general rule, we live and play in a macroscopic scale where decisions are cruzial.

 

I agree. I just had to point out his analogy was poor. I am sad too, I generally love analogies.

[olagatonjedi]

As Cambridge Dictionary states 'repetition' involves 'doing ... the same thing several times, especially in a way that is boring'. At some point, and depending on perception for every person, excesive repetition could end subverting a game into a kind of work, not exactly the idea of enjoyment but repetitive boring tasks. This is not subjective. Similar it's appliable to randomness, which accordingly to Cambridge Dictionary, makes 'happenings, done, or chosen by chance rather than according to a plan'. RPG involves process of structured decision-making and excess of randomness it's against that basic concept.

Work vs fun, good idea vs bad idea, and abuse are not only relative from person to person, but subjective as well. I never said grinding or repetition was subjective.

[olagatonjedi]

Can't compare life to the game, totally non-applicable in this case regarding RNG. Games are for enjoyment, fun, RNG facet to life isn't created/crafted by devs like the game is.

Sure it is. Some jobs, some lifestyles.....the list goes on and on how someone else can dictate, randomly, how enjoyable something is to you. Life is full of RNG-based events and personalities that affect day to day. Very much like swtor, as swtor IS a mimic of life, in essence, that you control an avatar in a world with the same type of opportunities, rules, economies, etc.

[OlBuzzard]

The following is just my opinion. I do not have specific statistics to properly support these statements. However IMO... they do reflect a certain truth of what is taking place.

 

1. The General Consensus of 6.0: Is not favorable for many players. The exact number or specific impact on the game is undetermined at this time.

 

2. The RNG debate will never be resolved. That aspect is evidently in SWTOR to stay … the overwhelming community feedback notwithstanding.

 

My apologies … some people might like RNG.. but a committee of ONE does not constitute a majority. It should be noted that I do NOT pretend to speak for everyone with regard to the matter of the success of RNG. That said it does not take a rocket scientist (*** note) to figure out the number of players who are requesting that at the very least RNG be removed from vendors when purchasing gear .. or mods related to gear.

 

3. Crafting … Those who enjoy this will find it difficult at best. I'm not certain if this is due to the large number of players who have accounts with the maximum number of alts and have a VERY LARGE number of companions making items on a large scale. I can only imagine how this affects the mega guilds ! (YIKES !!)

 

There are several other issues … but frankly I've been on that lake all day (had a blast I might add) … And just tying this out is simply not any fun any more !! It seems pointless in fact !

 

As for the development team... they KNOW where they want to go with the game. I get that !

 

I guess the bottom line is this: BW... when you are done with your game (6.0 version) … I'll see what shakes out. Then I WILL DECIDE … what to do next. It's just that simple.

 

No brag … no threat... just fact !

 

If someone thinks I'm getting all tied up in knots inside over this … think again !! That just means I'll be spending more time at the office !!

 

http://www.gamblerbassboats.com/

 

Edited: (***Note) … forgot to add .. my apologies to my friends in RL who really ARE rocket scientists !

Edited October 5, 2019 by OlBuzzard

[Tsillah]

1. The General Consensus of 6.0: Is not favorable for many players. The exact number or specific impact on the game is undetermined at this time.

This comment makes no sense at all. It either is the general consensus or not. You can't say it is the general consensus, then refer to many players and then say it's undetermined.

The truth simply is that we see a number of negative comments on the PTS forum and some spread over unto here. There is no telling whether that even remotely constitutes to a general consensus because we do not know how many people they represent.

2. The RNG debate will never be resolved. That aspect is evidently in SWTOR to stay … the overwhelming community feedback notwithstanding.

I'm not sure how overwhelming the community feedback has been because I feel that most of the community has not been on the PTS nor do they come to the forums in general.

 

There certainly is criticism and it may be valid but I find it hard to decide whether it is valid or not because from the complaints it's hard to get a good picture from what is going on on the PTS. What we get presented here are mostly opinions and adjectives that are personal judgements. The problem is that I get a sense that a number of people are unhappy about something but it's so vague I cannot tell why.

 

Sure, I don't like RNG either but what is ok and what is too much? What is an acceptable amount? What are the alternatives? etc. Without that information it's just not possible for me to lend any creedence to these posts. I would like to but I can't. You are right, people will have different opinions so it will never be resolved but I do have to wonder if people are seeing things on the PTS and take them out of context and let their emotions speak more than their reason. So I'll wait till the 22nd and then decide whether I like the set up or not, because I'm certainly not getting enough information here.

 

And I don't want to go to the PTS because I don't like playing new content before it's out. But I do put question marks with the complaints and how easily some people believe them. In general that is, not specifically directed at you

[OlBuzzard]

This comment makes no sense at all. It either is the general consensus or not. You can't say it is the general consensus, then refer to many players and then say it's undetermined.

The truth simply is that we see a number of negative comments on the PTS forum and some spread over unto here. There is no telling whether that even remotely constitutes to a general consensus because we do not know how many people they represent.

 

I'm not sure how overwhelming the community feedback has been because I feel that most of the community has not been on the PTS nor do they come to the forums in general.

 

There certainly is criticism and it may be valid but I find it hard to decide whether it is valid or not because from the complaints it's hard to get a good picture from what is going on on the PTS. What we get presented here are mostly opinions and adjectives that are personal judgements. The problem is that I get a sense that a number of people are unhappy about something but it's so vague I cannot tell why.

 

Sure, I don't like RNG either but what is ok and what is too much? What is an acceptable amount? What are the alternatives? etc. Without that information it's just not possible for me to lend any creedence to these posts. I would like to but I can't. You are right, people will have different opinions so it will never be resolved but I do have to wonder if people are seeing things on the PTS and take them out of context and let their emotions speak more than their reason. So I'll wait till the 22nd and then decide whether I like the set up or not, because I'm certainly not getting enough information here.

 

And I don't want to go to the PTS because I don't like playing new content before it's out. But I do put question marks with the complaints and how easily some people believe them. In general that is, not specifically directed at you

 

Hey … that's cool !

 

Let me try to do better:

1. Changes in the game. As with any new XP of just about any MMO there are always changes. However... with this one there have been a number of players with an axe to grind against "solo" players. Since before KotFE … it's been there. With a number of decisions made by BW... (cutting the 8 individual class stories down to one main story being one of the biggies) .. a lot of this was decided to be the fault of BW catering to the solo players. IMO it was not !! Many of those types of decisions were made to help streamline the cost of production. Let's face it … one story instead of 8 … much cheaper ! And there were some other changes … But frankly I don't want to bore anyone with a history lesson.

 

At any rate one changes that is coming will be the difficulty level will be change significantly. Some will like it … and others will not. the BEST solution SHOULD HAVE BEEN to allow the choice of "Story / Veteran or Master mode... but no one know exactly how this new system will work. What I can tell you is that those who hate the "solo" player modes are applauding it … and those who prefer solo mode are concerned.

 

No I do not have specific numbers right now. That was my point. It's a crap shoot at best as to where this will end up. IMO... that's yet another gamble on the games future.

 

2. RNG: Frankly every MMO has this to some degree. My personal dislike over the entire matter boils down to the VENDORS ! IMO... that should be straight forward. NO RNG. Here are the items... Here is what we are charging.. And a player simply earns (whatever the going currency is) and pays for them. The rest being RNG is something that will never be resolved IMO.

 

Vendors: suppliers of parts or goods for an agreed upon price. Not pay a price .. throw the dice and see what you get !

 

At any rate. I do hope this helps a tad more. And … yes this is my opinion. When the time comes... and 6.0 drops I will play the game. I will make the determination as to whether or not the game is worth playing any longer.

 

BTW.. it should also be noted that if you and I still disagree... That's cool. I'm not going to be offended ! Having multiple opinions (as long as we show respect to each other) … helps make the community a better one.

 

EDIT... and yes I have been on PTS. Not too much yesterday (was at the "office" all day. And today we have guests for the evening !

Edited October 6, 2019 by OlBuzzard

[Tsillah]

Hey … that's cool !

 

Let me try to do better:

1. Changes in the game. As with any new XP of just about any MMO there are always changes. However... with this one there have been a number of players with an axe to grind against "solo" players. Since before KotFE … it's been there. With a number of decisions made by BW... (cutting the 8 individual class stories down to one main story being one of the biggies) .. a lot of this was decided to be the fault of BW catering to the solo players. IMO it was not !! Many of those types of decisions were made to help streamline the cost of production. Let's face it … one story instead of 8 … much cheaper ! And there were some other changes … But frankly I don't want to bore anyone with a history lesson.

 

At any rate one changes that is coming will be the difficulty level will be change significantly. Some will like it … and others will not. the BEST solution should have been to allow the choice of "Story / Veteran or Master mode... but no one know exactly how this new system will work. What I can tell you is that those who hate the "solo" player modes are applauding it … and those who prefer solo mode are concerned.

 

No I do not have specific numbers right now. That was my point. It's a crap shoot at best as to where this will end up. IMO... that's yet another gamble on the games future.

That's actually a very good point you make here. There is of course the situation that started with 4.0 and their announcement beforehand about what was coming that was a real blow to the community that is into group content. No new ops, raising all the old ops to the max level and nerfing SM were things that made a lot of people unhappy and understandably so. Then 5.0 after with GC, particularly as it was introduced almost was the final nail in the coffin for SWTOR I think. It certainly lead to server merges.

 

In any case, some people do indeed blame solo players or as you say have an axe to grind with them. I think that's an error in thinking by those people because the problem, as I see it, was never the solo players but how BW handled the whole situation and banked on one group rather than still offereing a broader experience in the new content.

 

We all know that 4.0 brought back many players but we also know it backfired soon after. But BW has proven to be very resistant to change and always react very late, which only aggravates matters. I can't blame BW for making mistakes in general, that always happens, but I do blame them for making certain avoidable mistakes and indeed taking way too long to react to big issues.

 

What 5.0 with GC did wrong, among other things, is that it was meant as a one-size-fits-all solution. BW have tried since 4.0 to bring different types of players together in content that has a little something for everybody. Sadly, they never realised that then also means that this content has a lot of something for nobody as well. So it ended up being a one-size-fits-no-one situation. This actually continued throughout Nathema. Those last 3 FPs (Umbara, Copero and Nathema) also tried to combine the effects of story, group content and daily activities into one but that was not what people asked for. I mean they tried before that with Iokath but then made a new type of dailies that nobody wanted and it wasn't that nice of a place for various reasons.

 

That was the big gain of Ossus. It was an explorable place with dailies, WBs, an Ops boss and the place looks amazing too. For example Nathema looks great too but I would've spent a LOT more time there if it had been an explorable planet and not an FP. Of course Ossus did have the mistake of adding new, superfluous gear tiers (252, 258) that completely made the GC boxes and raid loot utterly useless. That's the sort of mistake I do blame BW for because how could you not figure out that it would do that? Ossus can be done just fine with 230 gear and you even get 232 green gear just in case and then you can gain better gear than any operation essentially. But again that's hardly the fault of solo players but rather BW not thinking some of their decisions through.

 

My view has always been that this is not the fault of solo players in fact but how BW tried to combine the different playstyles rather than making content for all of them. People really need to stop blaming solo players for mistakes BW made. Although I also think that there are solo players that should be more reasonable in the sense that you cannot expect the same rewards for none or a lot less of the same effort. The problem since 5.0 is that more difficult content is not rewarded fairly and that is a problem.

 

It seems that they are doing different things now with different set bonuses but I do not have a clear idea yet of which activities give you what. I saw references on the PTS forum to the Dxun ops dropping fixed tokens so that is a step forward for max level raiding and also references that certain craftable sets are not available elsewhere. It may be costly in the new crafting but if it's the only way to get certain things it might make sense. I don't know yet but I could see that. We'll see when it comes out and I'm sure that BW will want to tweak a lot still after release.

 

2. RNG: Frankly every MMO has this to some degree. My personal dislike over the entire matter boils down to the VENDORS ! IMO... that should be straight forward. NO RNG. Here are the items... Here is what we are charging.. And a player simply earns (whatever the going currency is) and pays for them. The rest being RNG is something that will never be resolved IMO.

 

Vendors: suppliers of parts or goods for an agreed upon price. Not pay a price .. throw the dice and see what you get !

 

At any rate. I do hope this helps a tad more. And … yes this is my opinion. When the time comes... and 6.0 drops I will play the game. I will make the determination as to whether or not the game is worth playing any longer.

 

BTW.. it should also be noted that if you and I still disagree... That's cool. I'm not going to be offended ! Having multiple opinions (as long as we show respect to each other) … helps make the community a better one.

 

EDIT... and yes I have been on PTS. Not too much yesterday (was at the "office" all day. And today we have guests for the evening !

Yeah I'm not a fan of the RNG style vendors either. It feels a bit like Diablo 3 but this is not that type of game. I am a firm believer in having pathways that have a clear goal that you can work towards.

 

Now apologies if I am too direct sometimes but the respect is mutual and I salute you for picking this up as you did

 

What you'll likely find is that I don't have a problem with people having a different opinion but rather how they present it. I really do not respond well to people claiming to know what everybody or most people want. That's why this general consensus bit annoys me. I also hate it when people say "I hate this because it sucks" and then fail to explain WHY it sucks.

 

You just said that you don't like vendors giving you RNG stuff and prefer specific pieces. I agree but even if I didn't I can see that reasoning. I also can see in this example that someone might say the opposite and say they like the RNG because they enjoy that element and don't want to gear up too quickly. I might not agree with that view but at least it's a fair view that explains where they are coming from.

 

So thanks again for being a good sport towards my perhaps direct reply. I am in the same boat as you are. I will decide after it comes out whether this will hold my interest or not. I quite a couple of years ago and came back (against my own expectations) to see what 6.0 would bring because I do like a number of things they are doing, but I am not convinced yet I will be back to stay for longer. I hope so, but 6.0 has some things to prove to me.

 

I can really understand that people do not like things they see on the PTS and that's totally cool. I just wish they explained more about the WHY You just did and it made total sense to me. What can I say?

[MikeCobalt]

Vendors: suppliers of parts or goods for an agreed upon price. Not pay a price .. throw the dice and see what you get !

 

Hahahaha... Not a F'ing chance. Like those Crates in the Cartel Market, Pay alot of money, get alot of trash (Jawa Junk) some ok items, a few kinda good, and maybe a good item.. Maybe. the Only thing for certain, you have no control or idea what your getting. I stopped buying those *Lonngg ago and never will again, Big waste of money. If I'm going to a Vendor its because I want to buy something, I know exactly what that item is and to just pay for it outright means I've decided I don't want to wait to *Grind and Grind and still Grind more waiting for that to Appear when it does (RNG). Spending money is one thing instead of playing for it, this makes even just spending the money is as much a waste or worse then more grinding for Miscellaneous (RNG).

[Lscarlet]

As reference: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=968846&page=4

- difficulty increased so soloing flashpoints much harder to imposible

You mean soloing veteran FPs? That's a good thing then. There are plenty of solo FPs and group content, for some reason, is meant for groups. I see no issue there.

 

I also hate it when people say "I hate this because it sucks" and then fail to explain WHY it sucks

 

I'll just take one point as an example...

 

For achievement hunting purposes (there are people who likes achievement hunting) this is clearly NOT fair: 'difficulty increased so soloing flashpoints much harder to imposible'. ¿Why? Because achievements will NOT reflect in wich state of the game those achievements were earned, if in a earlier/easier season of the game or in a later/harder season of the game. For those coming too late it will be unfairly harder, for those who got them earlier they will reflect achievements (but truly not deserved).

Edited October 6, 2019 by Lscarlet

[olagatonjedi]

I'll just take one point as an example...

 

For achievement hunting purposes (there are people who likes achievement hunting) this is clearly NOT fair: 'difficulty increased so soloing flashpoints much harder to imposible'. ¿Why? Because achievements will NOT reflect in wich state of the game those achievements were earned, if in a earlier/easier season of the game or in a later/harder season of the game. For those coming too late it will be unfairly harder, for those who got them earlier they will reflect achievements (but truly not deserved).

How do you accurately measure whats deserved and whats not?

[OlBuzzard]

That's actually a very good point you make here. There is of course the situation that started with 4.0 and their announcement beforehand about what was coming that was a real blow to the community that is into group content. No new ops, raising all the old ops to the max level and nerfing SM were things that made a lot of people unhappy and understandably so. Then 5.0 after with GC, particularly as it was introduced almost was the final nail in the coffin for SWTOR I think. It certainly lead to server merges.

 

In any case, some people do indeed blame solo players or as you say have an axe to grind with them. I think that's an error in thinking by those people because the problem, as I see it, was never the solo players but how BW handled the whole situation and banked on one group rather than still offereing a broader experience in the new content.

 

We all know that 4.0 brought back many players but we also know it backfired soon after. But BW has proven to be very resistant to change and always react very late, which only aggravates matters. I can't blame BW for making mistakes in general, that always happens, but I do blame them for making certain avoidable mistakes and indeed taking way too long to react to big issues.

 

What 5.0 with GC did wrong, among other things, is that it was meant as a one-size-fits-all solution. BW have tried since 4.0 to bring different types of players together in content that has a little something for everybody. Sadly, they never realised that then also means that this content has a lot of something for nobody as well. So it ended up being a one-size-fits-no-one situation. This actually continued throughout Nathema. Those last 3 FPs (Umbara, Copero and Nathema) also tried to combine the effects of story, group content and daily activities into one but that was not what people asked for. I mean they tried before that with Iokath but then made a new type of dailies that nobody wanted and it wasn't that nice of a place for various reasons.

 

That was the big gain of Ossus. It was an explorable place with dailies, WBs, an Ops boss and the place looks amazing too. For example Nathema looks great too but I would've spent a LOT more time there if it had been an explorable planet and not an FP. Of course Ossus did have the mistake of adding new, superfluous gear tiers (252, 258) that completely made the GC boxes and raid loot utterly useless. That's the sort of mistake I do blame BW for because how could you not figure out that it would do that? Ossus can be done just fine with 230 gear and you even get 232 green gear just in case and then you can gain better gear than any operation essentially. But again that's hardly the fault of solo players but rather BW not thinking some of their decisions through.

 

My view has always been that this is not the fault of solo players in fact but how BW tried to combine the different playstyles rather than making content for all of them. People really need to stop blaming solo players for mistakes BW made. Although I also think that there are solo players that should be more reasonable in the sense that you cannot expect the same rewards for none or a lot less of the same effort. The problem since 5.0 is that more difficult content is not rewarded fairly and that is a problem.

 

It seems that they are doing different things now with different set bonuses but I do not have a clear idea yet of which activities give you what. I saw references on the PTS forum to the Dxun ops dropping fixed tokens so that is a step forward for max level raiding and also references that certain craftable sets are not available elsewhere. It may be costly in the new crafting but if it's the only way to get certain things it might make sense. I don't know yet but I could see that. We'll see when it comes out and I'm sure that BW will want to tweak a lot still after release.

 

 

Yeah I'm not a fan of the RNG style vendors either. It feels a bit like Diablo 3 but this is not that type of game. I am a firm believer in having pathways that have a clear goal that you can work towards.

 

Now apologies if I am too direct sometimes but the respect is mutual and I salute you for picking this up as you did

 

What you'll likely find is that I don't have a problem with people having a different opinion but rather how they present it. I really do not respond well to people claiming to know what everybody or most people want. That's why this general consensus bit annoys me. I also hate it when people say "I hate this because it sucks" and then fail to explain WHY it sucks.

 

You just said that you don't like vendors giving you RNG stuff and prefer specific pieces. I agree but even if I didn't I can see that reasoning. I also can see in this example that someone might say the opposite and say they like the RNG because they enjoy that element and don't want to gear up too quickly. I might not agree with that view but at least it's a fair view that explains where they are coming from.

 

So thanks again for being a good sport towards my perhaps direct reply. I am in the same boat as you are. I will decide after it comes out whether this will hold my interest or not. I quite a couple of years ago and came back (against my own expectations) to see what 6.0 would bring because I do like a number of things they are doing, but I am not convinced yet I will be back to stay for longer. I hope so, but 6.0 has some things to prove to me.

 

I can really understand that people do not like things they see on the PTS and that's totally cool. I just wish they explained more about the WHY You just did and it made total sense to me. What can I say?

 

Very well said … And I totally agree !

 

Respect to you !!

 

[/salute]

 

IMO... even if we had differing opinions.. ( we don't for whatever its worth) .. we sit down and sort things out !! At the end of the day (even if we disagree somewhat ) … we can still be friends and respect each other !!

[OlBuzzard]

Hahahaha... Not a F'ing chance. Like those Crates in the Cartel Market, Pay alot of money, get alot of trash (Jawa Junk) some ok items, a few kinda good, and maybe a good item.. Maybe. the Only thing for certain, you have no control or idea what your getting. I stopped buying those *Lonngg ago and never will again, Big waste of money. If I'm going to a Vendor its because I want to buy something, I know exactly what that item is and to just pay for it outright means I've decided I don't want to wait to *Grind and Grind and still Grind more waiting for that to Appear when it does (RNG). Spending money is one thing instead of playing for it, this makes even just spending the money is as much a waste or worse then more grinding for Miscellaneous (RNG).

 

IMO... the whole point of going to a "VENDOR" is to purchase a specific item. RNG for "vendor items that are for sale" ?? That's a total contradiction in and of itself !

 

EDIT: Maybe what is needed are two SEPERATE "Vendors" .. one is located on Nar Shaddaa and it's out right RNG. The price is the same ? ( maybe … maybe not) .. but it's strictly RNG. Everyone who does business with that location know exactly what it is ! the other is located in plain view at another specified location. Earn the (current currency) .. and buy stuff for a specific price. IMO... Problem solved ! The players can choose.

Edited October 6, 2019 by OlBuzzard

[Lscarlet]

How do you accurately measure whats deserved and whats not?

 

¿Truly you didn't understood my example? It was easy enough...

 

If difficulty it's increased in solo flashpoints from 6.0 update, then ALL achievements related to flashpoints earned from 6.0 will be earned with certain increased degree of difficulty while ALL achievements related to flashpoints prior to 6.0 have been earned in an easier mode

 

 

These all achievements will not reflect the same effort and dedication because those earned from 6.0 will have an extra degree of difficulty. But those players earning these achievements will get the same recognition than those who earned them prior to 6.0 in an easier status.

 

Please don't tell me that you can't understand and accept that fact.

 

And this is only one reasoned criticism to one of the changes that 6.0 will bring to us. There is much more.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Lscarlet

[Darev]

Sure it is. Some jobs, some lifestyles.....the list goes on and on how someone else can dictate, randomly, how enjoyable something is to you. Life is full of RNG-based events and personalities that affect day to day. Very much like swtor, as swtor IS a mimic of life, in essence, that you control an avatar in a world with the same type of opportunities, rules, economies, etc.

 

Wow, really?

 

I think this is the most off the wall comment I've seen from you...and there have been some way out there statements from you in the past.

[olagatonjedi]

¿Truly you didn't understood my example? It was easy enough...

 

If difficulty it's increased in solo flashpoints from 6.0 update, then ALL achievements related to flashpoints earned from 6.0 will be earned with certain increased degree of difficulty while ALL achievements related to flashpoints prior to 6.0 have been earned in an easier mode

 

 

These all achievements will not reflect the same effort and dedication because those earned from 6.0 will have an extra degree of difficulty. But those players earning these achievements will get the same recognition than those who earned them prior to 6.0 in an easier status.

 

Please don't tell me that you can't understand and accept that fact.

 

And this is only one reasoned criticism to one of the changes that 6.0 will bring to us. There is much more.

But you still wont know if an older player beat it in 3.x AND 6.x anyways, so does it really matter? Achievements in swtor reflect conpletion of the achievements, but they have never indicated to what degree the player has achieved them (i.e purchase vs self completion vs what era vs grouped/soloed).

[olagatonjedi]

Wow, really?

 

I think this is the most off the wall comment I've seen from you...and there have been some way out there statements from you in the past.

Care to elaborate?

[Lscarlet]

Wow, really?

 

I think this is the most off the wall comment I've seen from you...and there have been some way out there statements from you in the past.

 

If some people love randomness, we should suggest pure randomness to be applied to the limit.. Then all highest tier gearing being available to all players randomly in any content from level 1. But no, some people don't want such randomness, they want specifically an amount of random to be aplied only to a certain type of players. It's curious...

Edited October 6, 2019 by Lscarlet

[TrixxieTriss]

That's actually a very good point you make here. There is of course the situation that started with 4.0 and their announcement beforehand about what was coming that was a real blow to the community that is into group content. No new ops, raising all the old ops to the max level and nerfing SM were things that made a lot of people unhappy and understandably so. Then 5.0 after with GC, particularly as it was introduced almost was the final nail in the coffin for SWTOR I think. It certainly lead to server merges.

 

In any case, some people do indeed blame solo players or as you say have an axe to grind with them. I think that's an error in thinking by those people because the problem, as I see it, was never the solo players but how BW handled the whole situation and banked on one group rather than still offereing a broader experience in the new content.

 

We all know that 4.0 brought back many players but we also know it backfired soon after. But BW has proven to be very resistant to change and always react very late, which only aggravates matters. I can't blame BW for making mistakes in general, that always happens, but I do blame them for making certain avoidable mistakes and indeed taking way too long to react to big issues.

 

What 5.0 with GC did wrong, among other things, is that it was meant as a one-size-fits-all solution. BW have tried since 4.0 to bring different types of players together in content that has a little something for everybody. Sadly, they never realised that then also means that this content has a lot of something for nobody as well. So it ended up being a one-size-fits-no-one situation. This actually continued throughout Nathema. Those last 3 FPs (Umbara, Copero and Nathema) also tried to combine the effects of story, group content and daily activities into one but that was not what people asked for. I mean they tried before that with Iokath but then made a new type of dailies that nobody wanted and it wasn't that nice of a place for various reasons.

 

That was the big gain of Ossus. It was an explorable place with dailies, WBs, an Ops boss and the place looks amazing too. For example Nathema looks great too but I would've spent a LOT more time there if it had been an explorable planet and not an FP. Of course Ossus did have the mistake of adding new, superfluous gear tiers (252, 258) that completely made the GC boxes and raid loot utterly useless. That's the sort of mistake I do blame BW for because how could you not figure out that it would do that? Ossus can be done just fine with 230 gear and you even get 232 green gear just in case and then you can gain better gear than any operation essentially. But again that's hardly the fault of solo players but rather BW not thinking some of their decisions through.

 

My view has always been that this is not the fault of solo players in fact but how BW tried to combine the different playstyles rather than making content for all of them. People really need to stop blaming solo players for mistakes BW made. Although I also think that there are solo players that should be more reasonable in the sense that you cannot expect the same rewards for none or a lot less of the same effort. The problem since 5.0 is that more difficult content is not rewarded fairly and that is a problem.

 

It seems that they are doing different things now with different set bonuses but I do not have a clear idea yet of which activities give you what. I saw references on the PTS forum to the Dxun ops dropping fixed tokens so that is a step forward for max level raiding and also references that certain craftable sets are not available elsewhere. It may be costly in the new crafting but if it's the only way to get certain things it might make sense. I don't know yet but I could see that. We'll see when it comes out and I'm sure that BW will want to tweak a lot still after release.

 

 

Yeah I'm not a fan of the RNG style vendors either. It feels a bit like Diablo 3 but this is not that type of game. I am a firm believer in having pathways that have a clear goal that you can work towards.

 

Now apologies if I am too direct sometimes but the respect is mutual and I salute you for picking this up as you did

 

What you'll likely find is that I don't have a problem with people having a different opinion but rather how they present it. I really do not respond well to people claiming to know what everybody or most people want. That's why this general consensus bit annoys me. I also hate it when people say "I hate this because it sucks" and then fail to explain WHY it sucks.

 

You just said that you don't like vendors giving you RNG stuff and prefer specific pieces. I agree but even if I didn't I can see that reasoning. I also can see in this example that someone might say the opposite and say they like the RNG because they enjoy that element and don't want to gear up too quickly. I might not agree with that view but at least it's a fair view that explains where they are coming from.

 

So thanks again for being a good sport towards my perhaps direct reply. I am in the same boat as you are. I will decide after it comes out whether this will hold my interest or not. I quite a couple of years ago and came back (against my own expectations) to see what 6.0 would bring because I do like a number of things they are doing, but I am not convinced yet I will be back to stay for longer. I hope so, but 6.0 has some things to prove to me.

 

I can really understand that people do not like things they see on the PTS and that's totally cool. I just wish they explained more about the WHY You just did and it made total sense to me. What can I say?

 

Agree with Buzz, well written.

 

It’s not the solo players fault or group players fault when Bioware decide to go one way or another. The blame falls squarely on Bioware deciding to do it.

 

Players blaming other players for Bioware changes or decisions is ridiculous if you ask me. But blaming Bioware for making a decision that affects player group x over player group y is reasonable. Just as long as people aren’t blaming the other player group and direct criticism at Bioware and leave the player groups out of it.

 

It reminds me of the early days of swtor when the pve Raiders would rage and blame pvpers if classes were balanced better (based on Bioware’s own internal targets) or if pvpers got content and raiders didn’t, the outrage at pvpers and toxicity on the fleet was out of control sometimes. Especially when pvpers for nothing new for 3 years.

Now it’s mostly solo players vs group players and pvpers (funny how they are mostly on the same side unless class balance is involved

 

Bioware make all the decisions based on what they think will make them more money. My problem with them isn’t that.

It’s them making the same mistakes over and over gain (that they say they learnt from at the time) and alienating parts of the player base with actual changes to their game play. I dont just mean not adding new content, I mean them actually changing something that doesn’t need changing or will alienate players if they do change it to accomodate new players or another player group at the expense of another.

 

They’ve made some really dumb mistakes because they don’t listen to or better yet, don’t understand the players feed back (lost in translation because it’s not open two way discussion??). They are still doing the same thing with 6.0. Everyone, but one person (Oleg), whose tested and provided real feed back on the pts, have told them things they flat out refuse to change or are ignoring. These are some of the same things they’ve even tried to do in the past that have failed.

 

Who knows what Bioware decide will make them more money? What I do know is as funding has been pulled from the game over the years, they try to cut costs to make more profit each year at the expense of losing players (customers). Which from a normal business perspective seems ludicrous and goes against all business models I’ve ever been involved with.

 

But I’m not in the gaming industry, so I’ve no idea what makes the most sense, I do know that the really successful games seem to have the reverse business model to Bioware. Other game companies actually keep investing more money and trying to build more loyalty from their players and hopefully grow or stablise the player numbers after launch, Bioware just shed players, reduce costs, shed players, reduce costs and shed more players.

 

Add that business model to them also not understanding the “whole” player base and making the same mistakes over and again, is why we have so few servers.

[Darev]

If some people love randomness, we should suggest pure randomness to be applied to the limit.. Then all highest tier gearing being available to all players randomly in any content from level 1. But no, some people don't want such randomness, they want specifically an amount of random to be aplied only to a certain type of players. It's curious...

 

Are you demonstrating randomness with this comment? That's the only way it even starts to make sense to me, viewed through that lens.

 

Really not sure what you're trying to say.

[Lscarlet]

But you still wont know if an older player beat it in 3.x AND 6.x anyways, so does it really matter? Achievements in swtor reflect conpletion of the achievements, but they have never indicated to what degree the player has achieved them (i.e purchase vs self completion vs what era vs grouped/soloed).

 

Yes it really matters, because in any case it will be unfair since the players who get them from 6.0 will confront an increased level of difficulty.

[TrixxieTriss]

But you still wont know if an older player beat it in 3.x AND 6.x anyways, so does it really matter? Achievements in swtor reflect conpletion of the achievements, but they have never indicated to what degree the player has achieved them (i.e purchase vs self completion vs what era vs grouped/soloed).

 

OMG, I never thought this would happen, but for the very first time, I have to legitimately agree with Oleg.

( and I’m not even playing Oleg RNG )

[Darev]

Care to elaborate?

 

Sure it is. Some jobs, some lifestyles.....the list goes on and on how someone else can dictate, randomly, how enjoyable something is to you. Life is full of RNG-based events and personalities that affect day to day. Very much like swtor, as swtor IS a mimic of life, in essence, that you control an avatar in a world with the same type of opportunities, rules, economies, etc.

 

As I read it you're comparing real life to a video game. The "same type of opportunities, rules, economies, etc" comment is what baffles me.

 

By that logic you should either be put in jail / executed when you go around killing random npc's / civilians in game....because that's what happens in real life. For the game to mimic real life, the consequences have to be the same, or at least similar. they aren't.

 

I'll give you just one example of where the game is nothing like real life.

 

You can create your character from any specific starter planet. You can control gender, appearance, which faction you belong to.

 

In life, that's 100% RNG

[Darev]

OMG, I never thought this would happen, but for the very first time, I have to legitimately agree with Oleg.

( and I’m not even playing Oleg RNG )

 

In playing whatever game he plays, this is the nut that the blind squirrel found.