All the systems for 6.0 seem unappealing. Bioware you need to pay attention.

[Totemdancer]

I played to about level 15 and stopped. Every problem I remembered from vanilla was there. It was just as bad as I remembered it being. GOD AWFUL poorly implemented nonsensical poorly thought out game mechanics, LACK of necessary quality of life features like group finder, quest information (which means that every tom dick and harry was running around with a quest mod because as it turns out almost all people want that information), complete lack of anything to do at end game if you didn't want to either raid or pvp (and the pvp is completely imbalanced poop) basically everything. A game that is a mile wide but an inch deep since you can only interact with the game at the most superficial and pointless level by killing meaningless respawns.

 

The only improved change was the lack of feeling of needing to rush rush rush. WoW just became way too busy with each new expansion to the point where there were 8 billion things you feel you needed to do every day in order to avoid missing out but most of them were double plus unfun. "Another turtle made it to the water".

 

Trixxie’s over there playing and can’t post here now. I’ve run into her a few time and had a blast doing the quests. The catch is to get the correct addons to make things easier. My HUD looks nearly the same as my swtor setup. And people want to help and are friendly. People wait and rarely ninja you. It’s a totally different experience.

[Rion_Starkiller]

I tried WoW like 10 years ago and loaded into some area with no story or background. The first questgiver I see wants me to go collect wolf pelts. I was like "yeah, AND?" So I never logged in again.

 

Good luck in WoW classic, Trixxie. I like this giant turd of a thread you dropped as you left the game

Edited September 13, 2019 by Rion_Starkiller

[Raansu]

I tried WoW like 10 years ago and loaded into some area with no story or background. The first guy I see wants me to go collect wolf pelts. I was like "yeah, AND?"

 

So I never logged in again. Good luck in WoW classic, Trixxie. I like this giant turd of a thread you dropped as you left the game

 

That's how mmo's were like back then. There was no hand holding story, just the lore and world.

[Darev]

That's how mmo's were like back then. There was no hand holding story, just the lore and world.

 

My first MMO was Star Wars Galaxies. Whatever story WOW had, we didn't even have that. Pick what you wanted to be, use up your skill points, and just kill stuff. Find a trainer...rinse/repeat. Oh...and the first time you got doctor buffs you felt invincible.

[Rolodome]

My first MMO was Star Wars Galaxies. Whatever story WOW had, we didn't even have that. Pick what you wanted to be, use up your skill points, and just kill stuff. Find a trainer...rinse/repeat. Oh...and the first time you got doctor buffs you felt invincible.

I remember spending something like 20-30 minutes (could have been more) just getting to a POI area with a group. We were all on foot. It felt like an adventure.

[Darev]

First problem is expecting major overhauls from PTS feedback. That is unrealistic, even over a 6 month period of time. And opening PTS more than 6 months ahead diminishes the playerbase that is on Live, which hurts the actual game. PTS is for minor tweaks WITHIN the already established system they have invested the past year+ developing. And you should also understand that in an MMO-type game, ecosystems have crossover, so overhauls to one system can greatly affect other ecosystems within the game, which is precisely why PTS feedback implementation is limited to tweaks. Especially at this stage in SWTORs life, given the fixed amount of resources.

 

I completely agree with everything you typed out here.

 

 

The "grind" part of a loot system needs to serve its purpose. completley agree.

 

And it needs to be a different version than recently implemented, to prevent stagnation disagree. However, I guess we would need to know what you meant, specifically (as in how far into the past does "recently" mean), to dig into that more.

 

 

6.0 gearing really reminds me of gearing from 1-50, where you literally just acquired gear as you levelled up and truthfully equipped any and all gear that was an upgrade, regardless of stats. I'm pretty sure we remember that differently. Getting tank or healer gear instead of DPS is not an upgrade. Getting Aim gear instead of Cunning gear was not an upgrade.

 

Think of 6.0 as a refresh, NOT as a continuation of what your used to. You will not go into 6.0 as an end-game player, no matter how many achievements you have. You will need to work towards it, just like you did before. I think you mean a reboot here.

 

Why would they do this? Because ALL MMOs, especially ones needing an infusion to population, need to equalize their playerbase. The elitism will be set back to 0. The newbie wont look so newbie-ish. Everyone has an opportunity to start from ground zero and progress on even ground. Its plain as day that this is whats happening. I played through one "NGE" already. If 6.0 turns out to be an equivalent to that, and it probably won't, but what you described is exactly what the NGE for SWG was...many more players will leave than they get new first timers.

 

And as far as the RNG of it failing - it worked in the past, in original SWTOR, to get the game to this point in the first place. Again, we remember differently. SWTOR NEVER had a 100% RNG loot (generation) system as was presented to us on PTS recently. NEVER.

 

The complaining honestly sounds like people cant get out of their comfort zone because they are so used to being in the state they are currently in - having control. If you were spending $175/month for a company car/unlimited gas/insurance and then they took the insurance away but kept the fee the same, wouldn't you be upset? The sudden changing of rules for no apparent reason irritates many people in life.

 

 

Again, Ossus was better for a variety of reasons. More free time to do whatever you wanted. 6.0 is just taking a different approach, but that time doing what you wanted will lean more towards doing it in game, rather than on another game. Makes sense from a business standpoint.

That is a gamble they're taking. You could end up playing the game with a LOT fewer people around. Edited September 13, 2019 by Darev

[Darev]

I remember spending something like 20-30 minutes (could have been more) just getting to a POI area with a group. We were all on foot. It felt like an adventure.

 

One of my favorite character bios I read was early in the game, before Mounts, and went something like this:

 

"Don't like my prices? it's not like I had to walk 1/2 way across Dathomir to find a good spot to hand gather resources while fighting off rancors and nightsisters to get the resources to make what I sell. Oh wait...I did have to do that"

Edited September 13, 2019 by Darev

[Totemdancer]

My first MMO was Star Wars Galaxies. Whatever story WOW had, we didn't even have that. Pick what you wanted to be, use up your skill points, and just kill stuff. Find a trainer...rinse/repeat. Oh...and the first time you got doctor buffs you felt invincible.

 

My first real MMO experience was original WoW.

What I like about this WoW classic is loading into the first start areas and there are tons of people doing the same. Everyone helps each other. Straight away you notice a different culture and relaxed attitude compared to swtor. People are there for fun and not feel like they are working a second job

If you go to a main city there are people who craft for you and some just give away stuff. I helped one guy out with a quest and he mailed me a couple of bags and some gear as a thank you (totally unexpected)

People form easy groups in areas that have harder to kill mobs to do some quests. You can explore more and relax if you want by fishing, cooking, farming (so much more relaxing than swtor) and crafting, progression is fun and random gear drops are nice. When I go my first green at level 5 I was so excited and getting a bag drop at level 4 was mind blowing.

No Cartel coin rubbish to open stuff like bank tabs or bag slots (bags). You progress as you want or craft, trade or give away stuff you don’t want.

There is RNG but it’s less painful and you have a distinct progression or grind if you want a certain look. Gear drops a fairly fast rate and you have no lockouts if you want to grind all day or all week.

Some of the systems can seem primitive compared to standard swtor. But there is usually an addon you can get to do what you need and it makes some things even better than swtor. (Even with a game system dated from 15 years ago).

I respect that WoW isn’t for everyone because of it’s old school feel. But it sure is a fun break from my second job (swtor)

Edited September 13, 2019 by Totemdancer

[OlBuzzard]

1

…

2

…

3

…

4

…

5

…

6

…

7

…

8

…

9

…

10

…

Breathe in …. slowly … Breathe out … slowly !

 

Nothing changes.

 

Breathe in … slowly … Breathe out … slowly !

 

Patience !

 

Breathe in … slowly .. Breathe out … slowly !!

 

All that disillusionment .. disappointment and misdirected bitterness !! Such sadness !! Such eagerness to divide and ruin

 

Breathe in … slowly … Breathe out … slowly !!

 

But why ? And for whom ?

 

Breathe in … slowly .. Breathe out … slowly !!

 

To what end ?

 

Change ?

 

Endurance ?

 

Lasting creativity and genuine growth ?

 

…

 

Nah ! Me ? I think I'll just be patient.. wait until this time next week and see what develops.

 

In the mean time … I'm still looking for a new office:

 

http://www.bassboatcentral.com/Gamblerpics/Basson2.jpg

[Totemdancer]

In the mean time … I'm still looking for a new office:

 

http://www.bassboatcentral.com/Gamblerpics/Basson2.jpg

 

Do you have to RNG on the size, colour and motor

[Darev]

The new vendors were taken off PTS between yesterday and today.

 

Now I'm doing the CZ198 +10 heroics to see if they adjusted the gear drops out in the "world"

[steveerkcanjerk]

First problem is expecting major overhauls from PTS feedback. That is unrealistic, even over a 6 month period of time. And opening PTS more than 6 months ahead diminishes the playerbase that is on Live, which hurts the actual game. PTS is for minor tweaks WITHIN the already established system they have invested the past year+ developing. And you should also understand that in an MMO-type game, ecosystems have crossover, so overhauls to one system can greatly affect other ecosystems within the game, which is precisely why PTS feedback implementation is limited to tweaks. Especially at this stage in SWTORs life, given the fixed amount of resources.

 

 

The "grind" part of a loot system needs to serve its purpose. And it needs to be a different version than recently implemented, to prevent stagnation. 6.0 gearing really reminds me of gearing from 1-50, where you literally just acquired gear as you levelled up and truthfully equipped any and all gear that was an upgrade, regardless of stats. Think of 6.0 as a refresh, NOT as a continuation of what your used to. You will not go into 6.0 as an end-game player, no matter how many achievements you have. You will need to work towards it, just like you did before.

 

Why would they do this? Because ALL MMOs, especially ones needing an infusion to population, need to equalize their playerbase. The elitism will be set back to 0. The newbie wont look so newbie-ish. Everyone has an opportunity to start from ground zero and progress on even ground. Its plain as day that this is whats happening.

 

And as far as the RNG of it failing - it worked in the past, in original SWTOR, to get the game to this point in the first place. The complaining honestly sounds like people cant get out of their comfort zone because they are so used to being in the state they are currently in - having control.

 

 

Again, Ossus was better for a variety of reasons. More free time to do whatever you wanted. 6.0 is just taking a different approach, but that time doing what you wanted will lean more towards doing it in game, rather than on another game. Makes sense from a business standpoint.

 

Misses the point. Of course when an expansion rolls out people need to be set to ground zero. That is no the issue that people are having with the update. The issue is how they are acquiring gear, grinds don't have to be rng. Old swtor changed its gearing because players literally left in max exodus with battlemaster packs after just a few months. So the devs changed and it took time to get in your ranked gear and best in slot raid gear but it was a fun path that didn't give you random rewards. Players should be able to gear by participating in either pvp, pve content at a decent pace. Currently as it stands on the pts weeklies are the primary way to get a good amount of comms or fragments. Not to mention there is guarantee for your stat role. You are taking control out of the player. I have seen games make changes on pts that are quite significant but often give players access 6 or more months out. Like I said i agree there needs to be a grind but they could actually design a progression system going from x to y to z. Going back to an unsuccessful method of gearing from the past is really dumb to put in kind words. There is nothing wrong with giving players control. That is the strangest argument i have ever seen. What makes sense from a business perceptive is keeping people subbed. We are not asking for the world, we just want the gameplay loop to reward the player, if i wanted to gamble with my time I would go play blackjack in vegas not pop on tor.

[Lhancelot]

if i wanted to gamble with my time I would go play blackjack in vegas not pop on tor.

 

Exactly this. ^

 

RNG works when the loot or gear RNG is attached to is something special or rare, that makes it worth doing RNG lol. Gambling time away for something is only worth it when the reward truly is special or the RNG activity is really fun.

 

The RNG gearing system SWTOR continues to use isn't dropping rare special items, nor is the gearing system fun at all. it's more of a chore and adding RNG to the chore makes it an even worse slog.

 

Attaching RNG to progression gears isn't adding an element of "woohoo I got it finally!", instead it just adds tons of frustration and resentment with a feeling of time being wasted.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Lhancelot

[olagatonjedi]

Misses the point. Of course when an expansion rolls out people need to be set to ground zero. That is no the issue that people are having with the update. The issue is how they are acquiring gear, grinds don't have to be rng.

They dont have to be RNG, but that doesnt mean it shouldn't be, sometimes. Its not your cup of tea? Thanks for your input. Tally 1 for non-RNG, or perhaps tally 1 for RNG if you keep paying and/or playing. Again, your vote/voice is only worth 1, the same as all of us, per account.

[OlBuzzard]

Do you have to RNG on the size, colour and motor

 

Depends on the availability of said office with the following specifications:

1. Used at a price I'm willing to pay.

2. A color scheme that I would prefer

3. OL: 20' to 20'6" FG with nice GC finish ( no GC cracks or other structural deficiencies or difficulties)

4. DC (no exceptions)

5. Lowrance HDS 12 or 16 (either one)

6. Hydraulic steering

7. Dual locking RB

8. Dual airyated LW

9 Forward Butt seat w/ std. hydraulic pedestal / rear std. seat w/std. hydraulic pedestal

9. Nominally functional with the following motor(s)

A. Merc 225 - 250 HP OBM ( based on mfg. recommendations and HP limits) with SS prop (pitch : TBD depending upon mfg. specs.)

B. 12" JP as suggested per MFG specifications only.

C. 96 # / 24VDC TM w/ iP system and 3 bank SS charging system. [note: new designed TM may need to be secured separately]

 

10. Dual tandem axle trailer (must be original release with boat). W/swing away tongue. No exceptions.

 

Must be clean and fully operational and still as originally released from the manufacture(s).

 

(catch my drift)

 

Besides an attempt to defect original point of my quoted post .. I thought it might be fun to post some of the things what we REALLY ARE looking at.

 

Also: brands are

Bass Cat

Champion

Gambler

 

All of which I will be watching for to be in original manufactures specifications and in good condition.

 

Yeah … I know … but there must be a little fun along the way. Otherwise what's the point.

 

[Damask_Rose]

The "grind" part of a loot system needs to serve its purpose. And it needs to be a different version than recently implemented, to prevent stagnation. 6.0 gearing really reminds me of gearing from 1-50, where you literally just acquired gear as you levelled up and truthfully equipped any and all gear that was an upgrade, regardless of stats. Think of 6.0 as a refresh, NOT as a continuation of what your used to. You will not go into 6.0 as an end-game player, no matter how many achievements you have. You will need to work towards it, just like you did before.

 

Apparently you geared differently in vanilla than I did. I payed attention to stats. The only people I knew who didn't were completely new to MMOs and had no idea what they were doing.

 

And as far as the RNG of it failing - it worked in the past, in original SWTOR, to get the game to this point in the first place. The complaining honestly sounds like people cant get out of their comfort zone because they are so used to being in the state they are currently in - having control.

 

You seem to have forgotten that in original SWtOR there were gear vendors on every planet. There were mod vendors for every few levels. Quests and heroics gave specific gear rewards tailored to your advanced class. Flashpoints had focused drops. If you did the content available, as it came available, you were kept at a good gear level for your level with the correct stats. There was very little need to EVER rely on RNG loot until you got into the end game loot bag debacle.

 

 

Again, Ossus was better for a variety of reasons. More free time to do whatever you wanted. 6.0 is just taking a different approach, but that time doing what you wanted will lean more towards doing it in game, rather than on another game. Makes sense from a business standpoint.

 

Your perception of the benefits of Ossus don't mesh with mine. For me, Ossus was a boring time sink that left me no time to do anything else but Ossus until I was so sick of it I rarely logged in. It was a crushing disappointment that Dantooine mobs didn't have the same loot profile so I couldn't even work on the world drop armor sets while doing fresher content. We would have been much better off with more tiers of Galactic Command in it's final iteration. Change for change's sake is not a sound development paradigm.

[olagatonjedi]

Apparently you geared differently in vanilla than I did. I payed attention to stats. The only people I knew who didn't were completely new to MMOs and had no idea what they were doing.

Or normal players that could complete content easily even with random gear slapped together until the end game. There was no need to organize gear from 1-50.

 

You seem to have forgotten that in original SWtOR there were gear vendors on every planet. There were mod vendors for every few levels. Quests and heroics gave specific gear rewards tailored to your advanced class. Flashpoints had focused drops. If you did the content available, as it came available, you were kept at a good gear level for your level with the correct stats. There was very little need to EVER rely on RNG loot until you got into the end game loot bag debacle.

I didnt say it was all RNG, but the npcs did follow a similar system as 6.0.

 

Your perception of the benefits of Ossus don't mesh with mine. For me, Ossus was a boring time sink that left me no time to do anything else but Ossus until I was so sick of it I rarely logged in. It was a crushing disappointment that Dantooine mobs didn't have the same loot profile so I couldn't even work on the world drop armor sets while doing fresher content. We would have been much better off with more tiers of Galactic Command in it's final iteration. Change for change's sake is not a sound development paradigm.

Every loot system has an optimal way to approach it. Sounds as though you didnt catch on with Ossus. If it took more than 15 mins/toon/week, you didnt quite understand the path of least resistance to gear. After 15 mins, you had a choice to leave ossus or stay. If you stayed, it was of your own choice, not because the loot system forced you.

[Totemdancer]

Or normal players that could complete content easily even with random gear slapped together until the end game. There was no need to organize gear from 1-50.

 

In that you are partially incorrect. The game was harder than it is now and there was no level sync. You might have found it easy but not everyone did if they weren’t grouped or had the best gear for their level. Heroics needed 2 or more people and flash points at your level were hard if you didn’t have the right gear.

Slapping random gear together was probably the worst way to gear. The easiest way was to buy gear directly from the planet side vendors as you levelled or blue/purple items that were crafted or dropped from flash points. RNG played a very small part in the original gearing up.

At level 50 you could do an operation or flash points an know what gear was likely to drop for your class or spec. This was RNG, but minimal because there were only so many pieces. Later you had Comms to exchange for items.

This is what people refer to as progression gearing because it’s not RNG heavy to gear normally at a reasonably fast pace.

After years of trial and error, Bioware themselves acknowledged players didn’t want heavy RNG, especially pvpers. They wanted a reasonably fast and progression based gearing system that was laid out. In my humble opinion, 4.0 was the pinnacle of this gearing system. Then they threw it all out the window for a RNG heavy system that drove people from the game. They forgot all the lessons they had learned through trial and error.

Removing pvp gear from the equation after announcing in 3.3 that pvpers didn’t want heavy gear grind for a system that was heavy grind and required them to pve to gear drove a big portion of pvpers from the game.

5.0 becomes a non starter for many who hate RNG heavy grinding and not just pvpers. Ben left the game 3-4 months laters and Keith went about adjusting the system to basically make RNG supplemental to a progression based model. This actually brought some players back to the game and stopped others from leaving.

6.0 is announced and its “play your way”. Everyone is excited that 5.x gearing will be making an exit and expect a progression based system around what ever type of play type you do. Then the PTS drops and people take a backwards step when they realise Bioware haven’t learnt any of the lessons from the last 2-3 year and we have a mostly RNG heavy grind and progression is mostly non existent. Even the vendor is RNG. People are rightly upset about this because it’s not even a half way reasonable attempt at making an enjoyable gearing system. It’s like they went to maximum extreme on the first build to see what they could get away with. The PTS test feed back was all negative in that first gearing build. I didn’t read one post that said the system was fair or reasonable. Luckily Bioware have decided to really participate and listen to PTS feed back this time and are making adjustments.

What has me and I can see other people worried is will they have time to change the system enough to make it enjoyable for the masses and avoid another 5.0 disaster.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Totemdancer

[steveerkcanjerk]

In that you are partially incorrect. The game was harder than it is now and there was no level sync. You might have found it easy but not everyone did if they weren’t grouped or had the best gear for their level. Heroics needed 2 or more people and flash points at your level were hard if you didn’t have the right gear.

Slapping random gear together was probably the worst way to gear. The easiest way was to buy gear directly from the planet side vendors as you levelled or blue/purple items that were crafted or dropped from flash points. RNG played a very small part in the original gearing up.

At level 50 you could do an operation or flash points an know what gear was likely to drop for your class or spec. This was RNG, but minimal because there were only so many pieces. Later you had Comms to exchange for items.

This is what people refer to as progression gearing because it’s not RNG heavy to gear normally at a reasonably fast pace.

After years of trial and error, Bioware themselves acknowledged players didn’t want heavy RNG, especially pvpers. They wanted a reasonably fast and progression based gearing system that was laid out. In my humble opinion, 4.0 was the pinnacle of this gearing system. Then they threw it all out the window for a RNG heavy system that drove people from the game. They forgot all the lessons they had learned through trial and error.

Removing pvp gear from the equation after announcing in 3.3 that pvpers didn’t want heavy gear grind for a system that was heavy grind and required them to pve to gear drove a big portion of pvpers from the game.

5.0 becomes a non starter for many who hate RNG heavy grinding and not just pvpers. Ben left the game 3-4 months laters and Keith went about adjusting the system to basically make RNG supplemental to a progression based model. This actually brought some players back to the game and stopped others from leaving.

6.0 is announced and its “play your way”. Everyone is excited that 5.x gearing will be making an exit and expect a progression based system around what ever type of play type you do. Then the PTS drops and people take a backwards step when they realise Bioware haven’t learnt any of the lessons from the last 2-3 year and we have a mostly RNG heavy grind and progression is mostly non existent. Even the vendor is RNG. People are rightly upset about this because it’s not even a half way reasonable attempt at making an enjoyable gearing system. It’s like they went to maximum extreme on the first build to see what they could get away with. The PTS test feed back was all negative in that first gearing build. I didn’t read one post that said the system was fair or reasonable. Luckily Bioware have decided to really participate and listen to PTS feed back this time and are making adjustments.

What has me and I can see other people worried is will they have time to change the system enough to make it enjoyable for the masses and avoid another 5.0 disaster.

 

This right here. RNG will have its place in mmos but it should be in the players favor. RNG does not equal progression. Progression implies as the word means going forward it is why it is called that. When you open up rng crates, with rng stats, with rng pieces there is good chance you are not progressing forward. Some of this stuff takes hours to do, I should get what i worked for. Thats all people are asking for. SWTOR has been there done that multiple times. This is not new or different.

[Balameb]

After years of trial and error, Bioware themselves acknowledged players didn’t want heavy RNG, especially pvpers. They wanted a reasonably fast and progression based gearing system that was laid out. In my humble opinion, 4.0 was the pinnacle of this gearing system.

I started playing SWTOR at the end of 4.0. The end game gearing was for me one of the selling points. I was in love with the idea of not needing to grind specific mobs/areas over an over again, instead just do missions and CHOOSE what i needed. And at that point i did little to no group content so higher tier currency was very rare for me, but i respected that.

Best gearing system. Ever.

[Damask_Rose]

I didnt say it was all RNG, but the npcs did follow a similar system as 6.0.

 

The pool of potential loot was significantly smaller. Pool size is very important when designing an RNG system. Having a 20% chance of getting something you need is very different from having a .2% chance of getting something you need. They are making some changes to improve the odds. We shall see next week if it is enough.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Damask_Rose

[Raansu]

Or normal players that could complete content easily even with random gear slapped together until the end game. There was no need to organize gear from 1-50.

 

Erm....no. Vanilla didn't have mastery stat. You had to actually pay attention and be properly geared, especially since a lot of classes didn't get their healing companions till way later. You couldn't just run around and one shot everything like you can now. If you were undergeared or even slightly underleveled a lot of the story quests mini boss fights would absolutely wreck you.

[olagatonjedi]

Erm....no. Vanilla didn't have mastery stat. You had to actually pay attention and be properly geared, especially since a lot of classes didn't get their healing companions till way later. You couldn't just run around and one shot everything like you can now. If you were undergeared or even slightly underleveled a lot of the story quests mini boss fights would absolutely wreck you.

The only truth from this is not having mastery.

[Raansu]

The only truth from this is not having mastery.

 

Your memory is just bad.

[Totemdancer]

The only truth from this is not having mastery.

 

Raansu is correct, I think your memory is a little faulty here. The game was much harder and stats and gearing did actually matter.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Totemdancer