All the systems for 6.0 seem unappealing. Bioware you need to pay attention.

[Lhancelot]

Many times you cant control the cause, but can still control the effect, though.

 

Well there's also many times when you can't control the cause nor the effect. Human nature and all, you got to take that into consideration. It's not reasonable to expect everyone to react and behave exactly the same as you do.

 

Most people don't respond well to spontaneous or disorganized, last second alterations, etc. It definitely isn't beneficial for a studio to appear to be scrambling around at the last bit of time trying to tweak or improve stuff in an update of this size.

 

Now, am I glad they seemingly are responding to feedback now? Well optically it appears better than not communicating and being apathetic to player concerns BUT I'd rather not see players on this rollercoaster ride of emotions due to what appears to be poor gameplay design choices that will come with 6.0.

 

I mean they only make things harder on themselves. Why even be in this predicament in the first place?

[damonskye]

Now, am I glad they seemingly are responding to feedback now? Well optically it appears better than not communicating and being apathetic to player concerns BUT I'd rather not see players on this rollercoaster ride of emotions due to what appears to be poor gameplay design choices that will come with 6.0.

 

Do you play other MMO games?

 

Because it is always the same story in every one of them. Decisions are made behind the scenes, and everyone cries foul, that players are being ignored. So they start publicly testing things, and everyone cries foul, it's not exactly like everyone wants it to be. So then developers communicate their intentions, and everyone cries foul, because they think they can do it better. At the end of the day, it's all a load of crying and frustration, and developers just want to go back into the box and work on the game without public input. Who can blame them?

 

It is a vicious cycle, but it's the truth.

 

The trouble is that so many people forget it's JUST a game. Admittedly, one people enjoy, but it's still just a game. And forums are populated by vast *minorities* of those players anyway, so you only hear the loudest voices in the room.

Edited September 12, 2019 by damonskye

[ElZaguero]

Do you play other MMO games?

 

Because it is always the same story in every one of them. Decisions are made behind the scenes, and everyone cries foul, that players are being ignored. So they start publicly testing things, and everyone cries foul, it's not exactly like everyone wants it to be. So then developers communicate their intentions, and everyone cries foul, because they think they can do it better. At the end of the day, it's all a load of crying and frustration, and developers just want to go back into the box and work on the game without public input. Who can blame them?

 

It is a vicious cycle, but it's the truth.

 

The trouble is that so many people forget it's JUST a game. Admittedly, one people enjoy, but it's still just a game. And forums are populated by vast *minorities* of those players anyway, so you only hear the loudest voices in the room.

 

That tired old "it's just a game" excuse has zero relevance to this discussion. And your comment, "everyone cries foul, it's not exactly like everyone wants it to be" is also disingenuous. This isn't a case of crying because it's not exactly what we want. It is a case of us having told BW for years that there is too much RNG in the gearing process, and them responding by doubling down on heavy RNG in the gearing process, and that implemented badly.

 

I have played a metric ton of online games, going back to Anarchy Online in 2001, and there is truth in what you say about this being typical, but that doesn't make it right.

[ZionHalcyon]

That tired old "it's just a game" excuse has zero relevance to this discussion. And your comment, "everyone cries foul, it's not exactly like everyone wants it to be" is also disingenuous. This isn't a case of crying because it's not exactly what we want. It is a case of us having told BW for years that there is too much RNG in the gearing process, and them responding by doubling down on heavy RNG in the gearing process, and that implemented badly.

 

I have played a metric ton of online games, going back to Anarchy Online in 2001, and there is truth in what you say about this being typical, but that doesn't make it right.

 

You may not like what he said, but he is 100% right.

[Balameb]

Sorry, but no.

 

I came to this thread as a PLAYER OF THIS GAME who has just as much right to be here as you. Not once have I been high and mighty. I've been very respectful of other people's opinions.

 

The rest of your statement is silly. Of course it's RNG. There's always going to be RNG. But it'll be easier to make your own gear, you're going to get so much gear that you'll be scrapping 90% of it, and they're making more changes to the PTS next week.

 

And I ask, yet again, if you get all the gear you want in the first few days, then what is your next course of action? It is obvious to me, and to others, that GEAR is not the end all of 6.0, but rather, GEAR CUSTOMIZATION is. We will all likely have full sets of gear on our main characters very quickly, with choice and customization of play style to follow. That is, after all, what horizontal progression *means*.

 

Now can we please stop attacking each other with nonsense like this? We all have a right to be here, and we all have a right to our opinions.

I never said you do not have a right to be here, if i gave that impression I apologize. You have every right and its perfectly fine if you are really happy.

I'm just poiting (as in response to "What am I missing? I can't WAIT for this expansion to hit.") that you have opinions that consider almost facts (as in "I still cannot figure out why in the world people aren't happy") and your base is false or misguided info (*). Take this bit:

But it'll be easier to make your own gear

Really? And you call my statements silly? Have you seen the gearing system for 6.0? Or are you just thinking in the stream/flowchart? Even with announced potential changes they are not even close to a sustainable crafting system.

 

Don't get me wrong, i was happy with that stream, i'm happy they are listening to feedback. But they are still missing some "key" points and that will keep people debating these things and not completely happy.

 

Its nice they have listened to feedback and change some things. Will they continue to listen and change when needed? Time will tell, but people should still voice what they think.

 

 

(*) Maybe not your intention but i did find your first post here, with those particular opening and closing quotes and the way you responded as to have a clear understanding as a High and migthy actitude. And considering how other people responded to you, i probably was not the only one to think that way.

 

What I think is the Players need to stay off of pts and cool down for a week.

 

They are making changes based on player feedback next week. Instead of getting the panties all in a twist yeah, let's see what they come back with and then test it. And give the constant hand-wringing a rest until then.

You are probably right. I actually was writing less but sometimes some debates make me dive in again.

 

And i just saw they decided to make some of the changes (the direct vendors), so probably more testing tonight.

[damonskye]

Really? And you call my statements silly? Have you seen the gearing system for 6.0? Or are you just thinking in the stream/flowchart? Even with announced potential changes they are not even close to a sustainable crafting system.

 

Easier for those of us who don't push master mode ops. It's near impossible for me to craft the best gear in the game currently, unless I do all of that.

 

You HAVE to remember that there are a ton of different ways people play the game. I go back to my earlier statement: there are usually more people on Tython or Korriban than on the fleets. People level new characters, they do random veteran FPs (I'd say "or uprisings" but I genuinely don't know anyone who still does them)

 

I still am sticking to my guns that 6.0 is a better system than currently live in the game. Yeah, there's RNG... you're never going to lose RNG. And every single statement from the developers and Musco have reinforced that belief.

[Damask_Rose]

Easier for those of us who don't push master mode ops. It's near impossible for me to craft the best gear in the game currently, unless I do all of that.

 

You HAVE to remember that there are a ton of different ways people play the game. I go back to my earlier statement: there are usually more people on Tython or Korriban than on the fleets. People level new characters, they do random veteran FPs (I'd say "or uprisings" but I genuinely don't know anyone who still does them)

 

I still am sticking to my guns that 6.0 is a better system than currently live in the game. Yeah, there's RNG... you're never going to lose RNG. And every single statement from the developers and Musco have reinforced that belief.

 

As a very casual player, the current system has been worked out to be nearly perfect for me. By doing any content I want I can earn crates to get third from best tier of gear either through RNG or upgrading with UCs. If I can take the boredom I can go to Ossus and get second from best tier of gear without touching group content, and if I want I can buy my way to top tier gear. I can also easily craft decent augments and kits on my own.

 

As things currently stand on the PTS it's going to take significantly longer to gear my toons to a comparable level. Right now gearing on the PTS is confusing and frustrating. It is convoluted and NOTHING is intuitive. Even the most basic crafting is awful! Unless there are significant changes I will be running around in crap greens for eternity. Will next weeks tweaks make things better than they are now? Undoubtedly. Will they have the whole system worked out by launch? Very unlikely. They have a long way to go before the new gearing system is anywhere close to being as good as we have now.

[MikeCobalt]

I would be alot more excited waiting for 6.0 if these gearing issues didn't keep coming up. Every time it seems that one issue is discussed its either disliked or later turns out to be even worse. Yes BW has made some changes seemingly from PTS and other feedback but other issues (Crafting, Mod's, etc.) come out as still not acceptable or its even worse then already thought. Hard to be anxious and excited when the news is not good (Despite the nice Pictures).

[damonskye]

As a very casual player, the current system has been worked out to be nearly perfect for me. By doing any content I want I can earn crates to get third from best tier of gear either through RNG or upgrading with UCs. If I can take the boredom I can go to Ossus and get second from best tier of gear without touching group content, and if I want I can buy my way to top tier gear. I can also easily craft decent augments and kits on my own.

 

Disagree completely. As a fellow very casual player, I've found it incredibly difficult to get better gear until I hit CXP level 300 on a character, and even then it's a crap shoot.

 

In the new system, you'll be able to get the best gear by doing ANYTHING you want, it will just take a bit longer than the other methods.

 

As things currently stand on the PTS it's going to take significantly longer to gear my toons to a comparable level. Right now gearing on the PTS is confusing and frustrating. It is convoluted and NOTHING is intuitive. Even the most basic crafting is awful! Unless there are significant changes I will be running around in crap greens for eternity. Will next weeks tweaks make things better than they are now? Undoubtedly. Will they have the whole system worked out by launch? Very unlikely. They have a long way to go before the new gearing system is anywhere close to being as good as we have now.

 

The point I've been trying to make for several pages is this:

 

1. The communicated intention of the developers is that it will be easier than ever to get great gear.

 

2. The PTS is up so players can communicate whether the rate needs to be increased or lowered.

 

3. Most importantly, the level of gear is going to eventually take a back seat to horizontal progression, i.e. getting the specific tactical stuff you want so you can play your way.

 

I *still* don't think people should panic. I've not seen the level of feedback requested by the developers & Eric Musco to this degree in YEARS. They obviously want to get it right. More than once they've acknowledged that they've heard player complaint loud and clear.

 

If after late October it's all a mess, then yes, I'll be happy to say I was wrong and join the rest of you in my dissatisfaction. But right now, no. The PTS is there for feedback, and that's all fine and good. I just don't think "everything is wrong" is the right avenue for that feedback, and this thread started with "everything is wrong."

Edited September 13, 2019 by damonskye

[Damask_Rose]

Disagree completely. As a fellow very casual player, I've found it incredibly difficult to get better gear until I hit CXP level 300 on a character, and even then it's a crap shoot.

 

In the new system, you'll be able to get the best gear by doing ANYTHING you want, it will just take a bit longer than the other methods.

 

You are using your UCs wrong then. You can buy the upgrades you need from vendors. Up until Ossus we already could get the best gear by doing ANYTHING we want, but without being completely RNG dependent.

 

The point I've been trying to make for several pages is this:

 

1. The communicated intention of the developers is that it will be easier than ever to get great gear.

 

2. The PTS is up so players can communicate whether the rate needs to be increased or lowered.

 

3. Most importantly, the level of gear is going to eventually take a back seat to horizontal progression, i.e. getting the specific tactical stuff you want so you can play your way.

 

I *still* don't think people should panic. I've not seen the level of feedback requested by the developers & Eric Musco to this degree in YEARS. They obviously want to get it right. More than once they've acknowledged that they've heard player complaint loud and clear.

 

If after late October it's all a mess, then yes, I'll be happy to say I was wrong and join the rest of you in my dissatisfaction. But right now, no. The PTS is there for feedback, and that's all fine and good. I just don't think "everything is wrong" is the right avenue for that feedback, and this thread started with "everything is wrong."

 

1. What the "communicated intention" was is not what we've gotten so far. People are basing options on personal observations of what has made it to the PTS. When the next version goes live, people will then give options on those changes. However, basing options on what the developers say their intent is, is never wise. On more than one occasion what the developers said was the intention of a change was the exact opposite of the result of a change.

 

2. People are giving their feedback on the PTS This thread was a summary of that feedback so a larger portion of the population would be aware of what was going on and go test things for themselves and add their voices to the feedback. And if you read read those threads, the feedback isn't "everything is wrong." It's specific feedback according to each threads' focus.

 

3. I don't like needing a spreadsheet and links to theory crafting websites for gearing, so this is not a win for me. Tossing some amplifiers onto gear would have been more than enough horizontal progression for my tastes.

 

No one is panicking. People are expressing dissatisfaction and annoyance at how badly the system has being playing out on the PTS so far which is what the PTS is for: to express options on the new systems, good or bad. We know from past experience that Eric and Co. saying they've heard our complaints does not in any way, shape or from mean they will adjust things accordingly.

 

It is better to give feedback on the proposed gearing changes now and to encourage more people check out the PTS and give their feedback to get changes made before launch. If 6.0 launches badly the game will suffer for it.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Damask_Rose

[Darev]

Easier for those of us who don't push master mode ops. It's near impossible for me to craft the best gear in the game currently, unless I do all of that.

 

You HAVE to remember that there are a ton of different ways people play the game. I go back to my earlier statement: there are usually more people on Tython or Korriban than on the fleets. People level new characters, they do random veteran FPs (I'd say "or uprisings" but I genuinely don't know anyone who still does them)

 

I still am sticking to my guns that 6.0 is a better system than currently live in the game. Yeah, there's RNG... you're never going to lose RNG. And every single statement from the developers and Musco have reinforced that belief.

 

This isn't the point of the thread, or your point, but the fact that there are "more people on Tython or Korriban than on the fleets" is a very bad thing in my mind. It means the low levels of the game are more fun than the higher levels of the game.

 

Honestly...they are.

140 alts later I'd still rather go through the starter planets than do group content at the high levels of the game.

 

 

I just feel it's the wrong argument to try to advance your point of view.

[Darev]

What I think is the Players need to stay off of pts and cool down for a week.

 

They are making changes based on player feedback next week. Instead of getting the panties all in a twist yeah, let's see what they come back with and then test it. And give the constant hand-wringing a rest until then.

 

That's kind of what I've been doing.

May not seem like it...but I've been quiet in these threads compared to what I have WANTED to post.

[Darev]

People complained about Ossus loot system when it came out. Now they are singing the praises of the Ossus system. The playerbase will never make up their mind because they dont look farther than their own immediate needs and issues. And they always think the grass is greener without a true understanding of the core 4 rules of loot systems.

 

I remember players complaining about the grind to get the loot, not the loot system.

 

The Ossus system actually works out really well for me, I noticed that right away when it was on PTS.

 

This system...the loot system, as initially implemented on PTS, sucked. And it's going to be a long grind from 270 to 306 if they keep the 2 level increments for gear.

[jimmorrisson]

People complained about Ossus loot system when it came out. Now they are singing the praises of the Ossus system.

I'd disagree with this. In fact people I know that once played the game a lot now have gone to WOW thanks to the Ossus grind and boredom of doing it.

 

My pals are solo players mostly that enjoyed PVP. To gear up they had to shovel Ossus down their throats for months to gear their main when it got time to gear their alts they quit.

 

Maybe for NIM raiders or whatever it is PVE players call themselves, gearing aint so bad but for others not raiding it appears Ossus isn't much fun at all. You only can repeat a small amount of content so much before you get sick of it.

 

Ossus is only preferable now due to 6.0

[MikeCobalt]

Ossus is only preferable now due to 6.0

 

So Very true. It sucked (Ossus method), only now we're finding a system that ****'s even more so; by *Default Ossus becomes better then.... . Neither are good, one is just "Not as as bad as the other". I do *Hope it pans out the feedback is constructive to the final structure we find when "Onslaught" goes live because every-time I see a new picture or think of how my characters stories will evolve, I keep thinking about these issues (Gearing the most) that darkens the entire thought.

[Jdast]

So come join me on my pleasure barge on Nar Shaddaa! I'm still chillin' and swillin' in my Alderaanian Nectar splash pool!

 

TL-DR: Zion was right three pages ago. Patience until the new PTS patch is released.

 

Query: How do a Hutt's panties get bunched up? How does a Hutt wear panties (or in my case, a speedo)? Oh, the enigma and mystery. Just like, how does a Hutt ride a bicycle or ice skate?

 

Dasty

Edited September 13, 2019 by Jdast

[Totemdancer]

Query: How do a Hutt's panties get bunched up?

Dasty

 

It takes a strong women to bunch up a Hutt’s panties

[Jdast]

It takes a strong women to bunch up a Hutt’s panties

 

Well played Totem. Well played. (Some may think sarcasm given my posting history. Wrong. I can admit when I got burned.)

 

/respect

 

Totem 1 - Dasty 0

 

 

Hugs,

 

Dasty

Edited September 13, 2019 by Jdast

[steveerkcanjerk]

First of all please read all i am about to say, it is going to be as well thought out as I can make it and all works together.

 

1. The defense of hurry up and wait till it comes out does not work when a PTS exists. In the past bioware has been told various changes that needed to made and they don't make it. This ranges from gearing as we see now, to class balance. Or they give us access to pts way to late to make actual overhauls. As someone who works as a developer and actual understands how to code etc. I know how long it can take to rework something and 2 months ain't it to rework a gearing system so don't expect that to change.

 

2. I agree that an mmo needs to be have a method of progressing or gearing that takes longer then a week or a day. But RNG is not the answer to that. What RNG is at the end of the day, is a lazy cop out system so that the devs don't need to make you an actual progression system. Even destiny learned this lesson by giving quests that directly gave you exotic weapons. Especially when adding 19 tiers of gear. The devs here are not stupid and know what they are doing. There is a reason why the crafting reqs were so damn high because they wanted to funnel players into the rng. This is the 3rd time bioware has tried this, first with battlemaster packs, then with command crates, now with this. I really thought we had moved past this but it seems to creep in again. What they should do is design a progression system around 19 tiers that will take you time. This can be from doing dailies ---> flashpoints---> raids. This is a simple one but the idea is that you do things in a reasonable amount of time. Alot of us have more then 1 character keep that in mind.

 

3. Everyone's game needs to be a respected. By that I mean pvp/pvers/rpers. These often make up the 3 pillars of players with a bunch of sub communities in them. I would safely say most pvpers don't play pvp to gear. They play it to fight other players. Putting a ridiculous gear grind infront of them layered in rng and heavy amount of weekly lockouts is not going to make their experience better. But it still needs a gearing progression that allows for various builds to be used so not everyone is cookie cutter. For example alacrity build vs crit/power build. Pvers are alot more open to a gear grind but still prefer it not to be rng. A simple example would be like before but everyday they should be able to log in and raid and know exactly what they are getting. When a raid group goes in they know X boss is gonna drop legs or mainhand. There is no cross your fingers. You still need to go through tiers of gear. Rpers are a bit trickier really that comes down to giving good quality tools in chat boxes or emotes, new outfits etc. Those should also be included. All of this can be done in an expansion.

 

4. The issues with ossus and yes i know more then 10 people that left because of this update was the mobile gaming like features we are starting to see. The weekly lockouts, were crap. We literally finished everything on tuesday and said well we will comeback next week do the dailies, our gods run, and wb's. Those were the most effcient ways to gear making the rest of the game near worthless to do. So yes after we all hit 258 by artificially being slowed down by lockouts we left the game unsubbed. And for fyi I have never unsubbed from this game since early access. To say that it has no effect on the pop it does, we literally went to play other mmos. Everyday needs to be meaningful progression not finish everything and get locked out. And it seems they are doubling down on this in 6.0 with weeklies being the biggest reward givers and everything else being so minuscule it is not worth doing. Or you can grind all day and pray you not only get the right pieces but a good roll on its stats.

 

5. If you want us to grind give us stuff worth grinding for. IDK how many swg players there are here but remember mando armor. I know it was tough to get cause i did (and again on legends emulator recently) but man was it cool to get. Or doing faction invasion to get the marine armor set. We didn't mind doing a grind for those things because they were cool. they were not just numbers. That is the issue with tor's grind as well besides the rng and lockouts and content drought it is this right here. At the end of the day we are grinding for stat boosts nothing more. No cool armor to show off to your friends, no cool weapon tuning, no cool weapon or flair. Nothing cool to grind for. Just numbers that will be reset in a few months or extended like in 5.0.

 

These are just some of the reasons i think there is a big disconnect with players who are for or against the changes but RNG is not the answer. And I feel all these things culminate together building into dissatisfaction. Look i am no stranger to doomsday sayers since the first day of tor. I remember when my server became a wasteland of nothingness. I played through it till a few months ago were i unsubbed for the first time. Since 2011 they been taking my 14.99 cause i believed in them. And if you think people are not leaving the game you are wrong. my entire guild of 10-15 people are unsubbed (i recently resubbed to give bioware one last chance) and not playing tor anymore and we all want to. Star wars is our favorite universe to explore and be a part of. But if this expansion follows through with how its going about its gameplay looop and mechanics we are going to walk away, and other just like 5.0 will to. Maybe you are lucky enough to not have experienced this but it is really sad to watch players leave devoid of hope, it is one thing to be burnt out or tired of the game. It is another to be let down so many times be the reason you are walking away. This RNG progression system aint bringing pvpers back, it ain't bringing raiders back, and some rpers will even walk away. It so far based on pts looks like a misstep and i hope that they really are implementing true changes like they say they are or otherwise they gonna lose at least the 10 subs that i know of. These posts are a cry out for help to bioware not to personally attack them.

[LordDarrack]

First of all please read all i am about to say, it is going to be as well thought out as I can make it and all works together.

 

1. The defense of hurry up and wait till it comes out does not work when a PTS exists. In the past bioware has been told various changes that needed to made and they don't make it. This ranges from gearing as we see now, to class balance. Or they give us access to pts way to late to make actual overhauls. As someone who works as a developer and actual understands how to code etc. I know how long it can take to rework something and 2 months ain't it to rework a gearing system so don't expect that to change.

 

2. I agree that an mmo needs to be have a method of progressing or gearing that takes longer then a week or a day. But RNG is not the answer to that. What RNG is at the end of the day, is a lazy cop out system so that the devs don't need to make you an actual progression system. Even destiny learned this lesson by giving quests that directly gave you exotic weapons. Especially when adding 19 tiers of gear. The devs here are not stupid and know what they are doing. There is a reason why the crafting reqs were so damn high because they wanted to funnel players into the rng. This is the 3rd time bioware has tried this, first with battlemaster packs, then with command crates, now with this. I really thought we had moved past this but it seems to creep in again. What they should do is design a progression system around 19 tiers that will take you time. This can be from doing dailies ---> flashpoints---> raids. This is a simple one but the idea is that you do things in a reasonable amount of time. Alot of us have more then 1 character keep that in mind.

 

3. Everyone's game needs to be a respected. By that I mean pvp/pvers/rpers. These often make up the 3 pillars of players with a bunch of sub communities in them. I would safely say most pvpers don't play pvp to gear. They play it to fight other players. Putting a ridiculous gear grind infront of them layered in rng and heavy amount of weekly lockouts is not going to make their experience better. But it still needs a gearing progression that allows for various builds to be used so not everyone is cookie cutter. For example alacrity build vs crit/power build. Pvers are alot more open to a gear grind but still prefer it not to be rng. A simple example would be like before but everyday they should be able to log in and raid and know exactly what they are getting. When a raid group goes in they know X boss is gonna drop legs or mainhand. There is no cross your fingers. You still need to go through tiers of gear. Rpers are a bit trickier really that comes down to giving good quality tools in chat boxes or emotes, new outfits etc. Those should also be included. All of this can be done in an expansion.

 

4. The issues with ossus and yes i know more then 10 people that left because of this update was the mobile gaming like features we are starting to see. The weekly lockouts, were crap. We literally finished everything on tuesday and said well we will comeback next week do the dailies, our gods run, and wb's. Those were the most effcient ways to gear making the rest of the game near worthless to do. So yes after we all hit 258 by artificially being slowed down by lockouts we left the game unsubbed. And for fyi I have never unsubbed from this game since early access. To say that it has no effect on the pop it does, we literally went to play other mmos. Everyday needs to be meaningful progression not finish everything and get locked out. And it seems they are doubling down on this in 6.0 with weeklies being the biggest reward givers and everything else being so minuscule it is not worth doing. Or you can grind all day and pray you not only get the right pieces but a good roll on its stats.

 

5. If you want us to grind give us stuff worth grinding for. IDK how many swg players there are here but remember mando armor. I know it was tough to get cause i did (and again on legends emulator recently) but man was it cool to get. Or doing faction invasion to get the marine armor set. We didn't mind doing a grind for those things because they were cool. they were not just numbers. That is the issue with tor's grind as well besides the rng and lockouts and content drought it is this right here. At the end of the day we are grinding for stat boosts nothing more. No cool armor to show off to your friends, no cool weapon tuning, no cool weapon or flair. Nothing cool to grind for. Just numbers that will be reset in a few months or extended like in 5.0.

 

These are just some of the reasons i think there is a big disconnect with players who are for or against the changes but RNG is not the answer. And I feel all these things culminate together building into dissatisfaction. Look i am no stranger to doomsday sayers since the first day of tor. I remember when my server became a wasteland of nothingness. I played through it till a few months ago were i unsubbed for the first time. Since 2011 they been taking my 14.99 cause i believed in them. And if you think people are not leaving the game you are wrong. my entire guild of 10-15 people are unsubbed (i recently resubbed to give bioware one last chance) and not playing tor anymore and we all want to. Star wars is our favorite universe to explore and be a part of. But if this expansion follows through with how its going about its gameplay looop and mechanics we are going to walk away, and other just like 5.0 will to. Maybe you are lucky enough to not have experienced this but it is really sad to watch players leave devoid of hope, it is one thing to be burnt out or tired of the game. It is another to be let down so many times be the reason you are walking away. This RNG progression system aint bringing pvpers back, it ain't bringing raiders back, and some rpers will even walk away. It so far based on pts looks like a misstep and i hope that they really are implementing true changes like they say they are or otherwise they gonna lose at least the 10 subs that i know of. These posts are a cry out for help to bioware not to personally attack them.

 

Without doubt one of the best posts ive ever read.

This is exactly how me and my bunch of mates who used to play this game 24/7 feel.

I haven't played since the disaster that was Ossus, it was boring, badly designed and not worth my time.

Although I'm still a loyal customer (fool more like) I am still a sub in the hope the game changes in 6.0, I check the boards and occasionally log in but my time is spent in ESO where gearing is an absolute blast not a grind.

 

If all this stuff goes live in 6.0 then that will be the final nail for me, if its a grind and not fun then why should I bother?

Shame its not a UK company, would love to put in a freedom of info request to see how badly the last patches hit their subs, looks like they are not learning.

 

Be safe

[Ellisande]

I’ve started playing WoW classic and even though it’s grindy in some parts and makes you work for stuff, the systems are not complicated and the game play is enjoyable. It’s why every server theyve so far released is full and why people are queuing to get into the game (some for 8 hours with 9000 people ahead of them in the queue , depending on time and region. I actually saw one screen shot where someone had 21,000 players ahead of them). In fact it’s so popular that the full retail version of WoW has become a ghost town and prices on the Auction house have plummeted.

 

Blizzard restrained themselves from opening extra servers, but have been forced to add about 20+ more because of demand. It’s even increased Blizzard stock prices https://www.wowhead.com/news=294755/activision-blizzard-stock-rises-after-classic-wow-launch

Of course some of this is hype and some people will leave, but I think it will be a year at least till they need to start merging any servers and at this point, they could probably open more and fill those up too.

 

There are now meme’s going around about the head of Blizzard saying to players at Blizzcon, “you think you do, but you don’t”.

He’s had to eat humble pie because he didn’t listen to what the players really want.

 

Now I’m not saying Bioware should release classic swtor, but they should actually listen to what players want instead of being a Ben “RNG is Exciting” Irving developer.

 

I played to about level 15 and stopped. Every problem I remembered from vanilla was there. It was just as bad as I remembered it being. GOD AWFUL poorly implemented nonsensical poorly thought out game mechanics, LACK of necessary quality of life features like group finder, quest information (which means that every tom dick and harry was running around with a quest mod because as it turns out almost all people want that information), complete lack of anything to do at end game if you didn't want to either raid or pvp (and the pvp is completely imbalanced poop) basically everything. A game that is a mile wide but an inch deep since you can only interact with the game at the most superficial and pointless level by killing meaningless respawns.

 

The only improved change was the lack of feeling of needing to rush rush rush. WoW just became way too busy with each new expansion to the point where there were 8 billion things you feel you needed to do every day in order to avoid missing out but most of them were double plus unfun. "Another turtle made it to the water".

Edited September 13, 2019 by Ellisande

[ZionHalcyon]

Honestly, this RNG debate reminds me a lot about an old Simpsons Halloween of Horror episode where the two aliens were pretending to be political opponents campaigning for President in front of a crowd:

 

Alien 1: Abortions for everyone!

Crowd: BOOOOO!

Alien 2: Abortions for no one!

Crowd: BOOOO!

Alien 1: Abortions for some, but not for others!

Crowd: YAY!!!!!!!

 

 

This RNG debate is a lot like that. That was a social commentary on how unrealistic and difficult it can be to cater to the masses, and how what ultimately ends up satiating the mob really doesn't change or improve anything no matter which perspective you take on a given debate - both sides lose and nothing actually changes because both sides remain completely inflexible, and yet are looking to a 3rd party (in the example, politicians, in our case, the developers) to "win" for "their side". And ultimately, neither side wins nothing, but both sides are happy just to perceive they haven't "lost".

 

Which means, bringing this to our RNG example, a complete gridlock - no chance for innovation, no chance for anything to improve, because catering to the masses makes one risk-adverse. Its why EA makes carbon copy games and rarely does anything inspiring, and same goes for other major publishers.

 

My point is, people need to be more flexible in their thinking rather than be absolutist.

 

We can agree the current system on PTS isn't working. But it doesn't mean it is all garbage. They are working on improving on it, and will have some changes next week. Rather than dig ones heels in, wait to see what changes are coming, and see how it plays.

 

Because what I am ultimately seeing is people digging in their heels and demanding the system be changed to what they want, without really being willing to see if the system changes that are being made are something they can live with, and having the patience and understanding that the feedback on PTS is being acted on, and therefore this is an organic process, making all the drawing of battle lines completely unnecessary and counter-productive to progress...

[olagatonjedi]

First of all please read all i am about to say, it is going to be as well thought out as I can make it and all works together.

 

1. The defense of hurry up and wait till it comes out does not work when a PTS exists. In the past bioware has been told various changes that needed to made and they don't make it. This ranges from gearing as we see now, to class balance. Or they give us access to pts way to late to make actual overhauls. As someone who works as a developer and actual understands how to code etc. I know how long it can take to rework something and 2 months ain't it to rework a gearing system so don't expect that to change.

First problem is expecting major overhauls from PTS feedback. That is unrealistic, even over a 6 month period of time. And opening PTS more than 6 months ahead diminishes the playerbase that is on Live, which hurts the actual game. PTS is for minor tweaks WITHIN the already established system they have invested the past year+ developing. And you should also understand that in an MMO-type game, ecosystems have crossover, so overhauls to one system can greatly affect other ecosystems within the game, which is precisely why PTS feedback implementation is limited to tweaks. Especially at this stage in SWTORs life, given the fixed amount of resources.

 

2. I agree that an mmo needs to be have a method of progressing or gearing that takes longer then a week or a day. But RNG is not the answer to that. What RNG is at the end of the day, is a lazy cop out system so that the devs don't need to make you an actual progression system. Even destiny learned this lesson by giving quests that directly gave you exotic weapons. Especially when adding 19 tiers of gear. The devs here are not stupid and know what they are doing. There is a reason why the crafting reqs were so damn high because they wanted to funnel players into the rng. This is the 3rd time bioware has tried this, first with battlemaster packs, then with command crates, now with this. I really thought we had moved past this but it seems to creep in again. What they should do is design a progression system around 19 tiers that will take you time. This can be from doing dailies ---> flashpoints---> raids. This is a simple one but the idea is that you do things in a reasonable amount of time. Alot of us have more then 1 character keep that in mind.

The "grind" part of a loot system needs to serve its purpose. And it needs to be a different version than recently implemented, to prevent stagnation. 6.0 gearing really reminds me of gearing from 1-50, where you literally just acquired gear as you levelled up and truthfully equipped any and all gear that was an upgrade, regardless of stats. Think of 6.0 as a refresh, NOT as a continuation of what your used to. You will not go into 6.0 as an end-game player, no matter how many achievements you have. You will need to work towards it, just like you did before.

 

Why would they do this? Because ALL MMOs, especially ones needing an infusion to population, need to equalize their playerbase. The elitism will be set back to 0. The newbie wont look so newbie-ish. Everyone has an opportunity to start from ground zero and progress on even ground. Its plain as day that this is whats happening.

 

And as far as the RNG of it failing - it worked in the past, in original SWTOR, to get the game to this point in the first place. The complaining honestly sounds like people cant get out of their comfort zone because they are so used to being in the state they are currently in - having control.

 

4. The issues with ossus and yes i know more then 10 people that left because of this update was the mobile gaming like features we are starting to see. The weekly lockouts, were crap. We literally finished everything on tuesday and said well we will comeback next week do the dailies, our gods run, and wb's. Those were the most effcient ways to gear making the rest of the game near worthless to do. So yes after we all hit 258 by artificially being slowed down by lockouts we left the game unsubbed. And for fyi I have never unsubbed from this game since early access. To say that it has no effect on the pop it does, we literally went to play other mmos. Everyday needs to be meaningful progression not finish everything and get locked out. And it seems they are doubling down on this in 6.0 with weeklies being the biggest reward givers and everything else being so minuscule it is not worth doing. Or you can grind all day and pray you not only get the right pieces but a good roll on its stats.

Again, Ossus was better for a variety of reasons. More free time to do whatever you wanted. 6.0 is just taking a different approach, but that time doing what you wanted will lean more towards doing it in game, rather than on another game. Makes sense from a business standpoint.

[Totemdancer]

First of all please read all i am about to say, it is going to be as well thought out as I can make it and all works together.

 

1. The defense of hurry up and wait till it comes out does not work when a PTS exists. In the past bioware has been told various changes that needed to made and they don't make it. This ranges from gearing as we see now, to class balance. Or they give us access to pts way to late to make actual overhauls. As someone who works as a developer and actual understands how to code etc. I know how long it can take to rework something and 2 months ain't it to rework a gearing system so don't expect that to change.

 

2. I agree that an mmo needs to be have a method of progressing or gearing that takes longer then a week or a day. But RNG is not the answer to that. What RNG is at the end of the day, is a lazy cop out system so that the devs don't need to make you an actual progression system. Even destiny learned this lesson by giving quests that directly gave you exotic weapons. Especially when adding 19 tiers of gear. The devs here are not stupid and know what they are doing. There is a reason why the crafting reqs were so damn high because they wanted to funnel players into the rng. This is the 3rd time bioware has tried this, first with battlemaster packs, then with command crates, now with this. I really thought we had moved past this but it seems to creep in again. What they should do is design a progression system around 19 tiers that will take you time. This can be from doing dailies ---> flashpoints---> raids. This is a simple one but the idea is that you do things in a reasonable amount of time. Alot of us have more then 1 character keep that in mind.

 

3. Everyone's game needs to be a respected. By that I mean pvp/pvers/rpers. These often make up the 3 pillars of players with a bunch of sub communities in them. I would safely say most pvpers don't play pvp to gear. They play it to fight other players. Putting a ridiculous gear grind infront of them layered in rng and heavy amount of weekly lockouts is not going to make their experience better. But it still needs a gearing progression that allows for various builds to be used so not everyone is cookie cutter. For example alacrity build vs crit/power build. Pvers are alot more open to a gear grind but still prefer it not to be rng. A simple example would be like before but everyday they should be able to log in and raid and know exactly what they are getting. When a raid group goes in they know X boss is gonna drop legs or mainhand. There is no cross your fingers. You still need to go through tiers of gear. Rpers are a bit trickier really that comes down to giving good quality tools in chat boxes or emotes, new outfits etc. Those should also be included. All of this can be done in an expansion.

 

4. The issues with ossus and yes i know more then 10 people that left because of this update was the mobile gaming like features we are starting to see. The weekly lockouts, were crap. We literally finished everything on tuesday and said well we will comeback next week do the dailies, our gods run, and wb's. Those were the most effcient ways to gear making the rest of the game near worthless to do. So yes after we all hit 258 by artificially being slowed down by lockouts we left the game unsubbed. And for fyi I have never unsubbed from this game since early access. To say that it has no effect on the pop it does, we literally went to play other mmos. Everyday needs to be meaningful progression not finish everything and get locked out. And it seems they are doubling down on this in 6.0 with weeklies being the biggest reward givers and everything else being so minuscule it is not worth doing. Or you can grind all day and pray you not only get the right pieces but a good roll on its stats.

 

5. If you want us to grind give us stuff worth grinding for. IDK how many swg players there are here but remember mando armor. I know it was tough to get cause i did (and again on legends emulator recently) but man was it cool to get. Or doing faction invasion to get the marine armor set. We didn't mind doing a grind for those things because they were cool. they were not just numbers. That is the issue with tor's grind as well besides the rng and lockouts and content drought it is this right here. At the end of the day we are grinding for stat boosts nothing more. No cool armor to show off to your friends, no cool weapon tuning, no cool weapon or flair. Nothing cool to grind for. Just numbers that will be reset in a few months or extended like in 5.0.

 

These are just some of the reasons i think there is a big disconnect with players who are for or against the changes but RNG is not the answer. And I feel all these things culminate together building into dissatisfaction. Look i am no stranger to doomsday sayers since the first day of tor. I remember when my server became a wasteland of nothingness. I played through it till a few months ago were i unsubbed for the first time. Since 2011 they been taking my 14.99 cause i believed in them. And if you think people are not leaving the game you are wrong. my entire guild of 10-15 people are unsubbed (i recently resubbed to give bioware one last chance) and not playing tor anymore and we all want to. Star wars is our favorite universe to explore and be a part of. But if this expansion follows through with how its going about its gameplay looop and mechanics we are going to walk away, and other just like 5.0 will to. Maybe you are lucky enough to not have experienced this but it is really sad to watch players leave devoid of hope, it is one thing to be burnt out or tired of the game. It is another to be let down so many times be the reason you are walking away. This RNG progression system aint bringing pvpers back, it ain't bringing raiders back, and some rpers will even walk away. It so far based on pts looks like a misstep and i hope that they really are implementing true changes like they say they are or otherwise they gonna lose at least the 10 subs that i know of. These posts are a cry out for help to bioware not to personally attack them.

 

Great post and well thought out.

[ZionHalcyon]

First problem is expecting major overhauls from PTS feedback. That is unrealistic, even over a 6 month period of time. And opening PTS more than 6 months ahead diminishes the playerbase that is on Live, which hurts the actual game. PTS is for minor tweaks WITHIN the already established system they have invested the past year+ developing. And you should also understand that in an MMO-type game, ecosystems have crossover, so overhauls to one system can greatly affect other ecosystems within the game, which is precisely why PTS feedback implementation is limited to tweaks. Especially at this stage in SWTORs life, given the fixed amount of resources.

 

 

The "grind" part of a loot system needs to serve its purpose. And it needs to be a different version than recently implemented, to prevent stagnation. 6.0 gearing really reminds me of gearing from 1-50, where you literally just acquired gear as you levelled up and truthfully equipped any and all gear that was an upgrade, regardless of stats. Think of 6.0 as a refresh, NOT as a continuation of what your used to. You will not go into 6.0 as an end-game player, no matter how many achievements you have. You will need to work towards it, just like you did before.

 

Why would they do this? Because ALL MMOs, especially ones needing an infusion to population, need to equalize their playerbase. The elitism will be set back to 0. The newbie wont look so newbie-ish. Everyone has an opportunity to start from ground zero and progress on even ground. Its plain as day that this is whats happening.

 

And as far as the RNG of it failing - it worked in the past, in original SWTOR, to get the game to this point in the first place. The complaining honestly sounds like people cant get out of their comfort zone because they are so used to being in the state they are currently in - having control.

 

 

Again, Ossus was better for a variety of reasons. More free time to do whatever you wanted. 6.0 is just taking a different approach, but that time doing what you wanted will lean more towards doing it in game, rather than on another game. Makes sense from a business standpoint.

 

Thank you for having the patience to type all that out. You nailed it.