So... apparently this game isn't the only one who had post-launch issues...

[Niil]

You most certainly implied it with the statement as shown...

 

Actually you were being bashed because your points were fallacies. You were dismissing people's claim of having a problem based on your personal experience when it's proven that there is an issue.

 

What relevance is there in stating that it was proven that there was an issue, if you weren't trying to imply that I described the contrary?

 

While I find this is probably going to be diversionary I'll go with it. Communication is two ways, and for the sake of clarification I'll address it. In the first post in the other thread I read of yours, you dismissed people's issues and proceeded to tell everyone that neither you nor your guildies had issues with it. As my statement implied to you that I was driving home the point that you stated the problem didn't exist, it was more to make the point that your supporting argument didn't hold weight, nor was it relevant with the myriad of videos proving the issue. Thus, your subjective experience has no value in the discussion. So we're back to the simple point that you dismissed people's complaints. You wrote numerous posts in response to people, in various ways, dismissing their claims.

 

He was implying that WoW did not have the log-in issue, and I do believe he made reference to it by quoting my post..

 

and the following response...

 

He quoted my post and said, "this" issue. If he was making reference to the responsiveness issue, then he should have clearly stated, "the responsiveness" issue, otherwise it just looks like he was referring to my post.

 

The entire thread was about the responsiveness issue. It was some random person posting that hadn't participated in the conversation up til that point.

 

You (to someone entirely different): If I do recall correctly, people had issues logging in to WoW for a number of weeks before the issues were resolved. The game came out like nine days ago, of course there will be bugs, errors, glitches, etc. You can't expect a PERFECT game when it was JUST released. No game has ever been perfect on launch; not one. That being said, this game is the closest to perfection I've ever seen in terms of an MMORPG launch.

 

Him(random post in the thread, hasn't posted in the thread since): Note: WoW and EQ didn't have this issue and it was one of their reasons for a long success

 

Now, as someone who was reading through the conversation and hadn't responded to anything (nor have I yet in that thread), I read that and thought about it. I was at the release of all those other games. Surprisingly enough, I didn't have this issue in other games thinking back. I had latency. I had login queues. I had servers being down for extended periods of time. I had server lag (loot lag/etc). But I've never experienced an issue similar to this. Okay, moving on... and suddenly you post a list of problems WoW had like it matters. You're missing the point.

 

I never once "condescended" anybody, but rather tried to bring light to the fact that patience is a virtue. The game has been out nine days. I could understand if it were two months, but... wow.

 

What difference does it make how long the game has been out? People are venting their frustration with their play experience. That doesn't mean they expect immediate results. That doesn't mean they expect Bioware to dump $50 million into new servers and magically the issues will go away. They're just pissed off and frustrated that they're playing a game and having problems because of something outside their control, and they're complaining to the people that do have control over it. And, since you've made the point several times that the thread was in the wrong place...a community manager or whatever their title is recreated the thread in the general forum for them. It was put there by Bioware. Please stop condescending to people, again. You're not an authority figure on the subject.

 

And, my question is, "How many people were in the beta?". The reason I ask is simply because an individual at one point made reference to this issue during the beta. Perhaps they (Bioware) believed that it would be corrected in the final version of the game, and they were unsure of its source? Perhaps they thought it may have been a minor server issue? Who knows? It's hard to say. I'd like to see the complaint threads during the BETA testing, please. I'd be interested to see them.

 

Who cares? That was a post made by someone else that isn't involved in this debate. And it's not the same person as the one above that said, "EQ and WoW didn't have this problem...."

 

 

Seem like they're points to me. I've been involved in a lot of logical debates in my time.

 

 

Lol @ you people thinking your voices will be heard in a forum irrelevant to the game's developments.

 

Sure, that's a point.

 

Really? It never bothered me on PVP! Lol. Maybe it's an issue with your computer(s), but honestly, it has never bothered me very much in PvP.

 

Also, the only ones QQing about this are the ones on the forums. I never heard any complaints from anybody else in-game. xD

 

There was, in total, one post of yours that I didn't see as condescending and chock full of fallacies. I only went back to page 131 though.

[dreadpirateandy]

One difference is that a lot of MMO's in the past had more technical limitations than now.

 

There is simply no excuse for the lack of polish and bugs in the game, some of them are known long ago in the beta.

I might as well compare SWTOR to EQ if we go down that road but last time I checked it's almost 2012.

 

Technology being marginally more advanced than it was a few years ago isn't a reason to bash the game and it certainly isn't evidence that the game should be better.

 

Polish and bugs have absolutely nothing to do with simple advances in technology. I dare you to even try to connect those two with rational/logical thoughts. Unless our technology is cyborg AI computer programmers who never make mistakes, you're going to have a real hard time of it.

 

As far as limitations go.... 1, if you can name a single technological limitation in SWTOR that should have been directly solved by any technological advancement in the last 5 years, I will eat my hat. 2, some kid banging away at his keyboard, playing internet technology expert, is not really convincing. Maybe if you give some kind of evidence instead of whining, you'd get a better response.

[Adam_Nox]

um, you linked to a topic that was 4 years after WoW's release. How does that mean or prove ANYTHING?

[Niil]

On top of that, the Devs aren't going to be "reading this". Instead, they'll be looking at the Customer Service forum!

 

Lol @ you people thinking your voices will be heard in a forum irrelevant to the game's developments.

 

 

This issue is under active investigation.

 

The complication is that there are actually a number of different issues with very different causes and potential resolutions lumped together in this thread.

 

All we can say for now is 'we are actively working on the topic of character responsiveness'.

 

Ironic, eh? That's from page 123 of the other thread.

[Umbral]

Keep in mind that WoW had very nasty issues even after their first month.

Only one really, and that was the lag problem when too many people were fighting in one place like Terran Mill/ Southshore.

 

The thing is, with most mmo gamers bugs in a recently released mmo aren't as big an issue as lack of content and lack of desired features are. When gamers say we want x feature, and the company says no pretty consistently, well then why would gamers stick around?

 

It's human nature in dealing with any product, and for most potential customers for SWTOR, it's just another product. us fanbois and others think that's just terrible, but that's reality, and we shouldn't bury our heads in the sand ignoring that reality. Neither should the companies making the game.

 

"I'm sampling your product. Your product is lacking the features I want in this particular kind of product. Are you planning on making those features available with your product? NO? Ok, well I'll go put my money into a product that is giving me, or will give me, the features I want in this kind of product."

 

Pretty basic stuff. Which is why it just completely boggles the mind when, for example, you read a representative of BW tell a huge number of potential long term customers that are asking for a LFD tool "WE believe xxxxxxxx, so WE won't be adding one in the foreseeable future."

 

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot less than a week after your game is released. :confused:

[nsaucdiv]

I played Anarchy Online at launch.

 

 

This, this, a thousand times this. I've said it again and I'll say it again, AO had hands down the worst launch I've ever been a participant in. Although I did come to enjoy the hell out of the game eventually. TOR's launch was a downright glorious experience by comparison. Which doesn't mean it was anywhere close to perfect.

 

Though for the record, I'm enjoying TOR thoroughly despite the frustrating bugs, and have no real issues with the launch itself.

[dreadpirateandy]

Ironic, eh? That's from page 123 of the other thread.

 

So what you're saying.....is that being dramatic and throwing my arm over my eyes while swooning about how we're being ignored, woe is us, I hate my life is....the *wrong* way to do things?

 

And that we should be realistic and actually listen to what BW is telling us instead of writing off their posts as nonsense meant to quiet us down while turning right around and clamoring for more responses?

 

But....that makes too much sense! The butthurt and anti-fanboys will never agree to that!

[Norsmeang]

What makes you think that the launch problems that TOR is experiencing are the same that WoW experienced?

 

Oh, that's right, you just assumed and pulled that out of....nowhere.

 

1. A problem that you see in-game can have hundreds or thousands of different causes underneath the surface. The cause and solution are anything but the same as those seen 7 years ago. So yea, maybe they can prevent some problems that would have arisen 7 years ago. But these are not those problems.

 

2. Welcome to the internet. It has bugs. If you want a bug-free game, go play checkers. If you want to join the real world and be realistic, then sit your noisy butt down and be patient like everyone else.

 

3. Do you have any idea how much $130 million is with regards to a modern video game, an MMO, an RPG, a game with tons and tons of employees and big name actors working on it, a game that needs a full-time support staff just to make it run? No, you don't. Go play internet accountant somewhere else.

I didn't say TOR had a bad launch, in fact it was quite smooth for me personally but there are some glaring bugs that could and should of been fixed before the game was released.

 

It's understandable if bioware had a deadline and wanted the game out before xmas but it shouldn't be plagued with annoying bugs like not being able to see chat in party or guild is a shining example of this. Social interaction is a very large part of this game and simply not being able to communicate cripples in game experiences.

 

I'm not about to 'quit', I'm optimistic that the issues with the game will be fixed but I hope it's sooner rather than later.

[LtDanomg]

Wish everybody realized most mmos have had worse launches. WAY worse.

 

A few of the MMO's to come out this year have had pretty smooth launches.

 

Good god, I remember when Planetside, WoW, SWG, and CoH came out. Ahhh the memories.

[GalacticKegger]

Ya, STO's launch was horrific. Logging in the first couple months after release was a crap shoot. They fixed a lot of problems during the closing months of beta, but the release was still nearly unplayable. Ships often wouldn't turn and when they did lag warp prevented them from straightening out - a genuine issue when your ship is your avatar 90% of the time. Away team adventures were 10 minute exercizes in artifact gathering and mobs were blinking in/out and floating sideways constantly. Some quests were uncompletable as dev kept over/undercorrecting their difficulty levels for almost a year.

 

The biggest disappointment though was how an advertised Star Trek galaxy PvE exploration adventure game turned out to be PvP centric. PvE was an afterthought. The game has improved somewhat in recent months since Cryptic released a quest sandbox to the end user community. But it's still mostly ship avatar's beating up on each other.

 

However, the game did come with a semi-customizable UI and a kick butt character generator. Ooo baby ah...

Edited December 29, 2011 by GalacticKegger

[Theodwulf]

Perhaps I do NOT understand your argument, maybe I just built a straw-man.

 

WoW had a bad launch in 2004, THUS TOR is entitled to a bad launch in 2011.

 

Or

 

WoW had a bad launch in 2004, TOR's launch was not as bad, THUS TOR is a great game.

 

 

 

I am not sure which is more absurd, your arguments or the fact that you think you have made valid arguments.

 

The condition of WoW is irrelevent to the condition of TOR. As my Parents used to say "They don't live in this house". I do NOT play WoW! I am not giving Money to WoW! I realy do NOT care what the condtion of WoW was in the past (or in the present for that matter). If you mention WoW in your argument , your argument is NOT relevent to this game as they have no connection.

[Niil]

So what you're saying.....is that being dramatic and throwing my arm over my eyes while swooning about how we're being ignored, woe is us, I hate my life is....the *wrong* way to do things?

 

And that we should be realistic and actually listen to what BW is telling us instead of writing off their posts as nonsense meant to quiet us down while turning right around and clamoring for more responses?

 

But....that makes too much sense! The butthurt and anti-fanboys will never agree to that!

 

Who are you and why do I care?

 

I think what I'm saying is, someone coming in and telling everyone that the problem is their computer, and launches are always bad, and they should stop whining, that they don't have an issue and no one in their guild does either, and that a developer will never respond to them in the general forum (when a Bioware employee recreated the thread in said forum) ...is wrong.

 

But as far as you...I don't know you, haven't read anything from you prior to this, have no idea why you're responding and being overly dramatic to me like I give a ****.

[Raximillian]

This launch was really smooth. Game works pretty well. Sure it has issues, but nothing gamebreaking for me so far. I was at WoW launch, and while it was not the apocalypse either, it did have quite a bit of issues.

[Swirly]

Well it's too bad competition was stiff so wow could suck at launch and get by but ToR does not have the pleasure.

[Mannic]

You know, there was a time when automobiles were notoriously unreliable and where families had to carefully plan whether or not they should attempt to drive more than maybe 10 miles or so in one. They had to be meticulously maintained and even then would still have problems. To start them they had to be manually cranked, they couldn't be driven up steep hillsl without stalling because they had gravity-feed fuel pumps, and the tires were always going flat. They also weren't very powerful and were more like motorized carriages than what we think of as automobiles today.

 

If somebody released a Model-T today, they wouldn't be able to fall back on the argument that the early automobiles were notoriously unreliable. The industry has advanced to the point where both cars and MMO's are far more reliable, and part of the reason for that is by both learning from and avoiding the mistakes of the past, as well as better technology on the main.

 

Sorry, but using bad launches of prior games to justify failure in TOR is pathetic. If you bought a new cell phone today and it kept disconnecting 20 times a day like the original cell phones did and only could acquire a signal in major urban areas, you'd be pissed and want your money back. Things progress, yes... even MMO's.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Mannic

[Sinister-Sith]

While I find this is probably going to be diversionary I'll go with it. Communication is two ways, and for the sake of clarification I'll address it. In the first post in the other thread I read of yours, you dismissed people's issues and proceeded to tell everyone that neither you nor your guildies had issues with it. As my statement implied to you that I was driving home the point that you stated the problem didn't exist, it was more to make the point that your supporting argument didn't hold weight, nor was it relevant with the myriad of videos proving the issue. Thus, your subjective experience has no value in the discussion. So we're back to the simple point that you dismissed people's complaints. You wrote numerous posts in response to people, in various ways, dismissing their claims.

 

Did I ever once say that I didn't acknowledge that there was an issue?

 

The entire thread was about the responsiveness issue. It was some random person posting that hadn't participated in the conversation up til that point.

 

You (to someone entirely different): If I do recall correctly, people had issues logging in to WoW for a number of weeks before the issues were resolved. The game came out like nine days ago, of course there will be bugs, errors, glitches, etc. You can't expect a PERFECT game when it was JUST released. No game has ever been perfect on launch; not one. That being said, this game is the closest to perfection I've ever seen in terms of an MMORPG launch.

 

Him(random post in the thread, hasn't posted in the thread since): Note: WoW and EQ didn't have this issue and it was one of their reasons for a long success

 

Now, as someone who was reading through the conversation and hadn't responded to anything (nor have I yet in that thread), I read that and thought about it. I was at the release of all those other games. Surprisingly enough, I didn't have this issue in other games thinking back. I had latency. I had login queues. I had servers being down for extended periods of time. I had server lag (loot lag/etc). But I've never experienced an issue similar to this. Okay, moving on... and suddenly you post a list of problems WoW had like it matters. You're missing the point.

Not missing a point at all, in fact, the entire point of my posts was to bring light to the notion that ALL newly released games have their issues; some different than others, and that we just need to have PATIENCE!

 

Also... WoW did have a similar issue back in May...

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489949371

 

What difference does it make how long the game has been out? People are venting their frustration with their play experience. That doesn't mean they expect immediate results. That doesn't mean they expect Bioware to dump $50 million into new servers and magically the issues will go away. They're just pissed off and frustrated that they're playing a game and having problems because of something outside their control, and they're complaining to the people that do have control over it. And, since you've made the point several times that the thread was in the wrong place...a community manager or whatever their title is recreated the thread in the general forum for them. It was put there by Bioware. Please stop condescending to people, again. You're not an authority figure on the subject.

And I did, indeed, make reference to the fact that they occasionally gander over to different forums, but Customer Service is the major cream of the crop.

 

In MY opinion, this is hardly something to get angry about so angry about... People need to have patience, like I have been saying time and time again. They're only going to get to it when they can. They're working like dogs.

 

 

 

Who cares? That was a post made by someone else that isn't involved in this debate. And it's not the same person as the one above that said, "EQ and WoW didn't have this problem...."

 

There was, in total, one post of yours that I didn't see as condescending and chock full of fallacies. I only went back to page 131 though.

Not quite sure what you're getting at, because the one that I quoted was, indeed, "Ryzerion" who said that EQ and WOW didn't have such problems.

 

[deneeve]

Read what users had to say about the WoW launch here...

 

http://vnboards.ign.com/world_of_warcraft_general_board/b19789/107608654/p1

 

 

 

 

 

Just continue reading, and you will find that WoW had a great NUMBER of issues post-launch.

 

Also to further reinforce my statement regarding the log in issues...

 

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=93823

 

I am not worried, nor do I fear about TOR's fate. As you can see, the website in itself is irrelevant to both games, but the post is about WoW's launch... so, you can see that I'm not the only one who experienced that issue at launch. xD

 

 

I hate when people bring up crap like this. It's so freakin irrelevant. WoW is a 7 year old game and came out basically in a different era. The mmo scene was drastically different as was the technology. If WoW came out in the same manner today it would fail miserably. You CANNOT compare a game launching now to then. Compare it to Rift or some other recent game if you absolutely must compare (though I think the whole thing is silly). On the whole, ToR's launch was ok. Wasn't spectacular, but it wasn't a disaster. No mmos out there have completely flawless launches. There will be bumps. Just depends on how you handle the bumps.

[eojs]

I'm a prophet.

 

Indeed it appears that you are.

[dreadpirateandy]

Who are you and why do I care?

 

I think what I'm saying is, someone coming in and telling everyone that the problem is their computer, and launches are always bad, and they should stop whining, that they don't have an issue and no one in their guild does either, and that a developer will never respond to them in the general forum (when a Bioware employee recreated the thread in said forum) ...is wrong.

 

But as far as you...I don't know you, haven't read anything from you prior to this, have no idea why you're responding and being overly dramatic to me like I give a .

 

I was actually being facetious and agreeing with you that people are being overly dramatic and there is proof that BW is looking into issues that they're complaining about.

 

That being said, this is a public forum where anyone may post. I'm not sure why you're so surprised that someone replied to you, but if you'd like a private platform I'm sure your sticky pad and pencil will work.

[Sinister-Sith]

I hate when people bring up crap like this. It's so freakin irrelevant. WoW is a 7 year old game and came out basically in a different era. The mmo scene was drastically different as was the technology. If WoW came out in the same manner today it would fail miserably. You CANNOT compare a game launching now to then. Compare it to Rift or some other recent game if you absolutely must compare (though I think the whole thing is silly). On the whole, ToR's launch was ok. Wasn't spectacular, but it wasn't a disaster. No mmos out there have completely flawless launches. There will be bumps. Just depends on how you handle the bumps.

Really? well, then how come this seven year old game is having similar issues to this game who has only been out nine days?

 

Spell Queue Lag

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2661067372

 

Latency/Spell Casting Issues

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2548996258

 

Another thread on spell cast lag...

http://woweuarchive.yg.com/thread.html?topicId=12424323910&sid=1

[LtDanomg]

Perhaps I do NOT understand your argument, maybe I just built a straw-man.

 

WoW had a bad launch in 2004, THUS TOR is entitled to a bad launch in 2011.

 

Or

 

WoW had a bad launch in 2004, TOR's launch was not as bad, THUS TOR is a great game.

 

 

 

I am not sure which is more absurd, your arguments or the fact that you think you have made valid arguments.

 

The condition of WoW is irrelevent to the condition of TOR. As my Parents used to say "They don't live in this house". I do NOT play WoW! I am not giving Money to WoW! I realy do NOT care what the condtion of WoW was in the past (or in the present for that matter). If you mention WoW in your argument , your argument is NOT relevent to this game as they have no connection.

 

 

MMO launches are quite an undertaking. Lots of people flooding servers all at once. If you buy too many servers and don't have enough players that continue to play, you go out of business. Sp typically, you spend the first few days / hours not really being able to play. The Old Republic had a pretty great launch. The longest queue I've had to wait in has been about 30 minutes. Fortunate server choice for me I suppose.

 

I'm not defending the person you're responding to, as I didn't even bother to read their post. But when people toss out the old "WoW's been in development for blah blah blah" line...it's because others are typically comparing SWTOR to WoW. In Blizzard's case, they've been around longer. So they've had a great deal of time to get the core stable, and then add fluff. People are (not always, mind you)complaining about fluff.

 

You can argue all day long that X feature should already be in here and Y bug should have already been addressed...but it's kind of silly. Stating your opinion and desire for a fix/feature is a great way to show the developers what you'd like to see. But the rage we see is rather foolish. Adding a dungeon finder or what have you takes a back seat when you're running into show stopping issues.

 

It's all about priority and time. I think most people realize that. But yelling and contributing to the hivemind rage is far more fun.

[TKMaster]

You know, there was a time when automobiles were notoriously unreliable and where families had to carefully plan whether or not they should attempt to drive more than maybe 10 miles or so in one. They had to be meticulously maintained and even then would still have problems. To start them they had to be manually cranked, they couldn't be driven up steep hillsl without stalling because they had gravity-feed fuel pumps, and the tires were always going flat. They also weren't very powerful and were more like motorized carriages than what we think of as automobiles today.

 

If somebody released a Model-T today, they wouldn't be able to fall back on the argument that the early automobiles were notoriously unreliable. The industry has advanced to the point where both cars and MMO's are far more reliable, and part of the reason for that is by both learning from and avoiding the mistakes of the past, as well as better technology on the main.

 

Sorry, but using bad launches of prior games to justify failure in TOR is pathetic. If you bought a new cell phone today and it kept disconnecting 20 times a day like the original cell phones did and only could acquire a signal in major urban areas, you'd be pissed and want your money back. Things progress, yes... even MMO's.

 

And in 20 years MMO's will still be bugged and have problems at launch, thats the way it works, sorry, welcome to the genre. New design years for cars are horribly mared with defects, 2-3 years later the same model will be virtually flaw free and we've been producing automobiles for quite a while now.

 

Welcome to the real world, enjoy your stay.

[deneeve]

Really? well, then how come this seven year old game is having similar issues to this game who has only been out nine days?

 

Spell Queue Lag

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2661067372

 

Latency/Spell Casting Issues

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2548996258

 

Another thread on spell cast lag...

http://woweuarchive.yg.com/thread.html?topicId=12424323910&sid=1

 

You were talking about the launch, not bugs in general. No MMO is bug free. But talk comparing the launches is totally senseless.

[dreadpirateandy]

I hate when people bring up crap like this. It's so freakin irrelevant. WoW is a 7 year old game and came out basically in a different era. The mmo scene was drastically different as was the technology. If WoW came out in the same manner today it would fail miserably. You CANNOT compare a game launching now to then. Compare it to Rift or some other recent game if you absolutely must compare (though I think the whole thing is silly). On the whole, ToR's launch was ok. Wasn't spectacular, but it wasn't a disaster. No mmos out there have completely flawless launches. There will be bumps. Just depends on how you handle the bumps.

 

Oh yea? How was the technology different? Examples please?

 

I'll hurry this along. You won't give any examples because you have no experience to talk about the issue and anything you've said and will say amounts to nothing but babble from an basement IT "expert."

 

Someone said the following a few pages back:

 

I guess I just find it strange that people think that server tech has really changed since 2004. Sorry, but it's the same CPU, hard drive, memory thing with a network card that it was back then too. Sure, bits are faster or more parallel, but the hardware conceptually is essentially unchanged, and it's not like anyone has re-written TCP, UDP, or IPv4 lately. Once you're into software, ah well now you're comparing apples & oranges, because for sure Blizzard (to pick at random) didn't give Bioware their server network code. It will have been done from scratch with a smattering from WAR and any other MMO IPs EA owns at best.

 

You can stress test all you like, but there's no stress test like the real thing.

 

So unless you have additional information about some breakthrough new quantum computer component, perfect AI programmers, new TCP/UDP/IPv4 protocols that somehow no one else on earth is aware about yet are currently in-use at BW, I think you're wrong.

[Ryzerion]

OP...grow up....

 

A matter of fact this is a clear example of how ignorance is displayed not even the op but those siding with him and didn't even read what the ****(calm tone) he was saying in the other thread you guys are funny.

 

Yea...this is an logical community alright.

 

SWTOR fanboys talking about WoW fanboys you guys got issues, serious ones.

 

And people wonder why their MMORPGs go down hill after months.

 

Peace and take care.