Sith Marauders, you are not a tank!

[thenerdma]

"Taunting mobs off of me to offtank them"

 

gg marauders dont have taunt, u suck

[Greystonez]

loljiggitylol

[REiiGN]

As a Marauder, I get it. Hell, I did just this a few times while first playing because guess what... I never played WoW. Or any other MMO like this. I get it though and basically it's a spreadsheet game. Can't really run away from that as it makes sense. However, there are a crap load of Marauders playing this game. This is basically their first 'toon'. Like me, I'll ride this Mara out then switch to something else until I've played every class.

 

Only thing I ask is that you not nerd rage on people playing this game. This game has brought in waaaay more people than who would regularly play an MMO because of the pure fact that it's Star Wars. This isn't a galaxy everyone is unfamiliar with.

 

People who like and play WoW are butting heads with those who want KOTOR 3 but has these group things that help them level up a good bit.

 

People getting mad because someone is pissing in your Flashpoint cereal, a flashpoint that becomes obsolete in a few level gains.

[FarVision]

This discussion is really about Pugs not guild groups, I don't tank the same in a guild group because I know my healers and dps are all capable I'll pull 2-3 groups together and let the dps handle all the light mobs while they're trying to chase me. I wouldn't even consider doing this in a pug.

 

Likewise If I mark targets in a guild group there is no discussion about what to do. We already know fire is the burn target, bullseye is the cc and 2nd target, shield is my taunt target and last to be killed.

 

 

I am the only one that I have played with, on my server, who has ever used the Mark system, out of my 17 levels of Smuggler, 18 levels of Inquisitor, and 12 levels of Warrior. Guild and Pug, since release on the 20th.

 

I don't think anyone except you and I have ever right-clicked on a portrait to see what's all in there.

 

It's kind of disheartening. I have ran into TONS of kids for whom this is their first MMO. Has there seriously not been anything out since WoW release? It's been something like six years, right?

 

NO one knows how to play!

 

This tank / DPS agro management stuff is really basic 101 stuff.

 

No one pans the camera. No one pays attention to what's going on. Warriors just mash buttons no matter what else is going on, and if you have a healer in the group, it's open season to run to the next enemy the millisecond you get out of combat.

 

On my Inq, who does have some healing specced - in a pug, I will tell them exactly what I want them to do. If the non-guild newb starts running off - I just stand there and watch. Lessons do have to be taught to these kids! (sorry for being bossy)

[KungFuTurtle]

On this Thread, I did have a question and I'm hoping someone can help. This is my first MMO so some of it is still kinda new to me, I want to do Sith Marauder cause I like the idea of dealing damage legitimately, not just cause I can't do anything else. But my problem is I hate dying so fast haha. Is there any way I can kinda get a balance or through a Juggernaut? Or do I just have to buckle down and deal with it? Any advise greatly appreciated

[ekimmak]

Use your defensive cooldowns. Cloak of Pain is a brilliant cooldown if you ensure that you'll take damage throughout the whole thing.

[jkuhl]

As a Marauder, if I force charge before the tank does, its because I expect that I can handle whatever I'm fighting on my own. Trash, or whatnot. Like in the Czerka normals, those are so damn easy that I just really don't give a crap.

 

And if I die, its my own damn fault.

 

However, in harder content, yes, after playing WoW for a long time, I've learned to wait for the tank. And I'll never force charge a boss or any elite I don't think I can handle, and I'll never do it when the group isn't ready.

[Maudril]

Immortal jugs do have problems gaining back aggro without the use of AOE taunt and saber reflect. So someone pulling for a jugtank is really making their job a lot harder, especially at low levels.

[Bryanseven]

It is mathematically impossible to any dps to pull agro from a mob the jug is focusing on, taunt takes whatever amount of hate that the top dps player has accrued and ads a multiplier to it to redirect agro to the tank.

 

Bad tanks do not taunt and so lose agro. Dps can initiate a fight before the tank is ready and that sucks, or possibly kite a mob pretty far away from a tank, but that is what intercede is for, and all dps have a threat wipe to take care of accidentally pulling and UNFOCUSED mob away from the tank, for marauders it is camouflage. Low level tanks do not have the tools to tank very well but low level flashpoints etc shouldn't require them.

[CaraExas]

my complaints while tanking and having a dps who thinks they can off tank.

1) pulling the mob. you just made my job harder. i can get and hold that aggro, but its gonna take me longer and you just screwed my whole plan over.

2) not using your aggro dumps. you have a cloak. use it.

3) kill order, mine is to go from strong to weak, your is weak to strong. i see alot of rdps who get this. i dunno what attracts alot of idiots to mdps classes to were they dont understand this simple concept. ill hold their attention. just kill them while i hit the biggest guy.

4) adds...kill them for godsake. i see more dps not kill adds and only focusing on the elite or boss and not the trash that randomly pop up then i care to count. biggest example of this is the HK-41 fight where everyone is going after the adds.

5) if a silver strength mob get lose off my attention because we are fighting a huge group, dont stop what you are doing just to ***** in chat. take the dmg and kill it, the healer will cover you. (yes this has happened to me before)

6) dont kite. there is no for you too.

 

i find maras/sents can be a huge pain in the ***. ive seen some good ones that do great work that let the tank do their thing. but a majority of them are tards.

however. sin dps specs can be the utter worst. i pull the entire mob, they force speed up, i get in a couple of attacks, bam all gone with an overload. annoying as hell.

 

with all that. i have a veng jugg and a mara in addition to my tank. i dont like to piss off the tank, because they can make the whole run a real pain in the *** if they want to. and it turns into 4 people mindlessly ************ at each other.

 

also ive seen some really bad tanks. one jugg tank i saw switched to shii cho before a pull, and only spammed his basic attack. and wouldnt pull threat or guard because he didnt want to "get hit and die".

[AncientJensaarai]

Brilliantly put. I'm a marauder player and any time I end up in a FP with another marauder I know what is going to happen.

 

My only issue is that a lot of Jugg players aren't very good. They have no situational awareness and think that because they are Juggs that they can charge in down a hallway before clarifying if the healer is ready, or if his DPS is for that matter. I've seen a Jugg get annihilated just because of his incompetence and it cost the group (He Leroy Jenkins'd it.)

 

Not only is this a message to you 14 year-old ***** who think that the Marauder is some transcendent deity that can one-shot same level Elites, this also goes out to you 18 year-old idiots who have no idea how tanking works.

 

Leave SWTOR to us 16 year-olds and adults who actually know how to play.

[AlestarVagen]

A lot of good points in this thread but just to say I tried leveling the playing field here it goes: Ive played both classes and learned respectively that 1. tanking is a lot of work and 2. so is being a mdps.

The Tank using his taunts should easily be able to pull the agro of any mob in a fp, if he cant beat out a marauders agro within 5-7 seconds (especially if the marauder waits to enter) then you seriously need to rethink your playing style. As far as marauders who think they can tank in some essence they can, if its a normal, silver and sometimes even a gold (depending on the situation) but it should only be used if the tank is seriously in trouble and the healer isn't doing their job. Other than that situation a marauder should be obliterating any weaker enemies while the tank distracts the big guys, once hes done that then by all means rape the elite.

[Beeteel]

Marauders work in burst damage, we build up rage and then unleash the rage in strong heavy attacks and that's kinda the point of the class however I always go in after the tank and if there is multiple enemies I always go for the weakest first so that I can build up rage and hate on a weakling that'll be gone in a few seconds before unleashing on the elite or the boss which works well.

 

The DPS job is to put out DPS, not burst. U are confusing PvE for PvP which is all about burst. I used to pull aggro from the tank as a Mara, even on elites. Until I realised I dps like a PvPer. U will do just as much dmg even if u unload your rage in a steady stream instead of building up and bursting. But then again, other mmos have made life easy for DPS. Its time DPSers start working for it or get punished like Tanks and heals

[AngusFTW]

yes we are!

[Spamfritter]

It should be common sense, but doesn't seem to be.

 

I have been leveling as a Sith Juggernaut specced as Immortal, I level as a tank, and I do flashpoints as a tank. My whole role and intent is to tank, which is why I chose juggernaut at level 10 and not marauder.

 

I am starting to see a trend in flashpoint when there is a marauder player, where they believe that they are also a tank. Taunting mobs off of me to offtank them, starting the pulls themselves, even on bosses...

 

Lets set the record straight, you are not a tank. You are a melee dps class. Please don't get offended. That is your role. Leave the tanking to the Juggernauts, the powertechs, and the assassins.

 

If you want to off tank a mob in aoe pulls of weak and strong mobs, go ahead, thats fine. But when it comes to elites and bosses, your putting too much strain on the healer, and making it harder for the "real" tank.

 

Marauders don't have a taunt. If you lose agro to a Marauder during the fight it's because either the Marauder is really good at doing damage or your really bad at holding agro. The first one is an issue normally early on in a fight as Juggernaut tanks do have a slight ramp up to building agro and a Carnage Marauder can do a ridiculous amount of damage in very short order which generates a massive amount of threat. This problem is compounded by bad Juggernauts who basically start their rotations with sundering assault which builds virtually no threat.

 

Unfortunately this game kind of teaches players to do that while leveling so they can get more going than their basic attacks. A Juggernaut at the level cap, properly spec'ed will never need to do that. Enrage is to be used first as it's an instant cast. Sundering Assault needs to be as far down in the rotation as possible.

 

A good Marauder will likely need a guard over other classes in a flashpoint or operation a lot of the time. Especially Carnage Marauders as they can front load their fury stacks and just unleash hell in their opener and during their burst phases. Some tanks ***** that the Marauder doesn't use force camo on cool down, and I think they are wrong for it. Having both a Juggernaut tank and a Marauder I can tell you that I use Force Camo as a defensive cool down for it's damage reduction primarily. I do not want to have to cycle it because a bad tank can't hold agro. If you know what your doing as a tank, I shouldn't need that. (After all I don't require / need this from Marauders I run with while I'm tanking and I don't have a problem.)

 

Starting pulls is something we can get impatient with. Some tanks feel like they've got to wait for saber throw to come off cool down before each trash pull. That's a bad tank and if I don't think I'll die doing it, I'll pull on the Marauder. I won't excuse the pulling on bosses as that is something I don't like as a tank either. I go pretty fast pulling mobs on my tank so your issues with them pulling first most of the time aren't something I have to deal with.

[JediMasterKroush]

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I like having a marauder around when I'm tank for a group. Because it makes my job easier.

 

This is just my interpretation of the Tank's job, and that is to keep the big mobs (Elites and higher) off the DPS and healers. Weaker mobs can be burned down by the DPS and then after that's done, the DPS jumps in and the big mobs are then burned down faster. However, it's my job, as a tank, to keep the big shots off the healer and dps.

 

FPs and Ops are all about teamwork, and everyone has a role. A tank shouldn't have to hold ALL the mobs aggro, only the heavy hitters, since we have the most HP and the heaviest armor. This allows the DPS to burn down trash mobs quickly, then jump in on the big hitters.

 

A marauder/sentinel can unleash some heavy damage and take down trash mobs with no problem, especially if teamed with a good ranged dps like a sorcerer/sage, sniper/gunslinger, or dps specced trooper/bounty hunter. (I forget what those classes are.)

 

There are times that I, as a tank, have been grateful to have a marauder in the party, and I'm going to reference a couple of battles in "Boarding Party". First instance is the Jedi Master with the two healers. The Marauder was able to help burn down those two healers, meaning that battle wasn't as long as it could have been. The second one is the last battle of the fp, with the 4 elites. As a tank, it's a good thing to have a marauder around to burn down THAT healer as well, so it can't keep healing the other mobs we're trying to burn down.

 

Anyway, that's just my 2 creds worth.

 

later

Edited December 6, 2013 by JediMasterKroush
forgot a point or 2

[YanksfanJP]

It is mathematically impossible to any dps to pull agro from a mob the jug is focusing on, taunt takes whatever amount of hate that the top dps player has accrued and ads a multiplier to it to redirect agro to the tank.

 

Bad tanks do not taunt and so lose agro. Dps can initiate a fight before the tank is ready and that sucks, or possibly kite a mob pretty far away from a tank, but that is what intercede is for, and all dps have a threat wipe to take care of accidentally pulling and UNFOCUSED mob away from the tank, for marauders it is camouflage. Low level tanks do not have the tools to tank very well but low level flashpoints etc shouldn't require them.

 

Bad tanks pull with taunt. You get no aggro since there is no top player, and then when a dps pulls off you, your taunt is on cooldown so you can't get the mob back.

 

Can't begin to count how many times I've seen an idiot tank do that.

[Tycoon]

I play a marauder and a jug tank. I can tell you, the tank sets the pace of the FP. Often you get tanks just sitting for 30 secs between fights on a normal flashpoint, making the flashpoint take forever! Also you get tanks who don't know the flashpoint and will just pull one group at a time, when the group can clearly handle multiple. When I see tanks like that I get annoyed and will pull addition groups, or set the pace myself as a marauder. Normal flashpoints are easy and boring, there is nothing wrong with mixing it up a bit. I also play a operative healer, and trust me, nothing is more boring than a healer. Im glad when things get difficult and a little stress is applied, it helps keep me awake... Edited December 7, 2013 by Tycoon

[Thryllth]

Playing all three of the trinity I find that the issue is usually not with the class but the player.

 

As a tank if your dps are pulling aggro on you single target after more than 10 seconds you are doing it wrong, in an aoe situation **** happens but st you should have all the tools you need.

 

As a dps if you can't keep your pants on long enough for the tank to pull pray I'm not tanking or healing because "You spanked it, you tank it". I wont heal you if I'm the healer and I wont taunt off you if I am tanking, I will pick it up when it aggros the healer after eating your face.

 

As a healer if your dps are doing this it is your call whether to heal them or not but if it annoys you when they do say something one time, then start handing out the repair bills.

 

Always remember

If the tank dies, blame the healer.

If the healer dies, blame the tank.

If the dps dies, they did something stupid.

[hvnlydeath]

I am getting shirt with this!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Always remember

If the tank dies, blame the healer.

If the healer dies, blame the tank.

If the dps dies, they did something stupid.

[that_Spartan_IV]

I've never once tried tanking, and I have a Sith Marauder as my main. Don't they show the roles for classes before you pick them?

[AbelNightroad]

My general rule of thumb: if the healer doesn't complain, I won't.

 

But at the same time, if I'm constantly dying because the healer is spending all their time healing the DPS that's taking the weaker mobs, something needs to change.

 

Granted, I don't have any experience tanking at endgame yet (still leveling my Juggernaut and Powertech), so this is just what I do while leveling FPs which can be rough to begin with as I don't have much of my kit as a Juggernaut. I also admit that WoW has warped my view of tanking to "I must have the attention of everything at all times" (which is super easy to do in WoW; sneeze on a target as a tank, it sticks to you the rest of the fight). I'm trying really hard to get out of that habit, but old habits die hard.

[Belunos]

The only thing you should really complain about is if a DPS tries to pull the group. Everything else is their fault, and you should leave them to their fate. I'm pretty experienced in DPS and heals, if I pull agro off a tank and it's a silver or less, that's fine. Just leave it, don't worry about chasing it, don't complain in the group. It's what I do, it's what I was made for, and if I bite off more than I can chew, let me die and suffer the consequences (I don't think I've ever died to this, save for when the tank goes down but that's a different story). If I'm a baddy I'll pull it too far for you to snap agro if I die, but then you just know you have a less experienced person and can decide accordingly.

 

Doing the initial pull, that's a whole other ball of wax. All that initial agro will default to whomever pulls, then the second on the list will be heals. Take two seconds to let them know that's a no-no (it could be their first group, after all), and if it happens again, why that's why they invited the kick button.

[znihilist]

Always remember

If the tank dies, blame the healer.

Or because the tank doesn't know the concept of gearing up or defensive CDs

If the healer dies, blame the tank.

Or perhaps the DPS let the healer eats the normal/strong adds and focusing on the Elites.

If the dps dies, they did something stupid.

 

Or because the tank doesn't tank and the healer doesn't heal.

 

More often than not, wipes happen because of the tank not doing his job properly.

(If that was meant as a joke, then wooooooooooooooooosh to me)

Edited December 11, 2013 by znihilist

[Targetboy]

Thanks to the last two posters, but I think you missed the point of this thread. I don't mind dps pulling aggro off of me, I can deal with that, Threatening Scream is great to taunt everything around me, and I switch targets to that mob and build up threat, easy.

 

I'm talking about marauders who believe they can tank, by pulling mobs away from my range, that I have to go chasing after the mob that they decided to off tank. Or pulling bosses on their own, and yelling at the healer for not healing them.

 

Here's the thing, you suck. My Mar can practically solo most flashpoints minus the bosses and larger pulls. Get better at pulling and keeping the pace moving.

 

I've actually spent a good deal of time keeping my gear updated with mk-9 augment slots with the current level augment. I usually have more health than your average tank by a fair amount. Most players neglect their stats. Hell the other day, I was literally in a fp where the tank had zero mods/enh/armoring. Thankfully my merc healer is geared and I carried the pos.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Targetboy