Make Mirror classes actual mirrors

[ChaoslegionX]

Holy **** how is this post still going kill it already.

[SeloDaoC]

Holy **** how is this post still going kill it already.

 

Becouse its one of the most important topics on the forum?

[ErrantMercenary]

Maybe because you post is clearly biased against the empire and has some falsehoods in it. There are a few discrepancies that benefit the republic. Not a lot, but you turned your own post from well crafted points, to a crusade against empire players (or whining about being republic). Either way, you sabotaged a dev coming here. Which is sad, because the rest of your post warrants it.

 

The quotes at the bottom of the post notwithstanding, find the informational inaccuracies presented by Kelindell.

 

I mean this seriously. This is the best thread on the PvP forum right now, and every grievance listed (I might add that the first problem listed favors the Republic), is easily verifiable with in game testing. He's even provided video proof in most cases. The fact that hte majority of the advantages fall the Empire's way doesn't make Kelindell biased, it makes the game biased, and that's the issue he's trying to address, regardless of which faction he plays for. Silence on all but I think two of these issues is getting deafening.

[Kellindell]

One thing that people forget is that my post has multiple purposes.

 

One of them is showing the actual discrepancies between the factions which are so overly glaring its unreal.

 

One of the other functions is to show the devs the perception they have created through action, inaction, and pro empire comments made in interviews. Top that off with the silence in this thread, and you get the quotes I added to the bottom of the post.

 

Those quotes serve a very specific function.

[Kellindell]

I'm sure it's been said, but Electrocute most certainly does suffer from LoS, facing, and Resolve.

 

I will remove it from the OP then, i have no evidence either way, but at this point I havent re-experienced my problems with it that I had in beta or the games beginning, so maybe it was broken and got fixed, maybe it was a resolve issue, I dont know.

But a few empire players have said its not like that, and I have reduplicated the moment in at least 2 weeks.

[Kellindell]

Please point out the falsehoods, I am more then willing to discuss them and if its proven they are false or the overwhelming majority states they are false, ill get rid of them.

[sithgrizley]

Terrible thread full of whining, misinformation and outright lies. Not to mention people trying to argue an advantage on both sides of a point.

 

The turret firing timing for one instance. From everything I've seen the way it works is every X seconds all 3 turrets and polled and the shields are deducted from both ships according to the number of opposing guns controlled. This does mean that, say X = 10, you can capture a turret and it can do nothing for 9.9 seconds and the enemy can cap it and it can fire .1 seconds later. That's uniform, no side advantage. I can tell you that I've seen republic capture the guns and get shots off essentially immediately and empire 'lazy gunners'. It's possible it's lag related, but it seems to just be the way the guns are polled. Whining about it is just stupid.

 

Project vs Shock. Instant vs flight time. If you need to interrupt a cap Shock is better. If you want to burst hard then Project is better. The damage spike for say Project -> Pebble Tossing is much larger than Shock -> Lightning. For obvious reasons if your opponent hasn't died or capped in that flight time the higher burst of project is much better. FYI, if something is launched with project and you go out of LoS you are still hit by the damage, not sure about vanish but I see no reason why it would be different.

 

Etc, Etc. From what I can tell the Republic attracted all of the whining kids and the Empire the people who enjoy their (admittedly better) story lines and the people are serious about PvP and raiding.

 

OP, you're so biased it hurts. It's apparent enough that your entire thread can and should be discounted. Ever wonder why Bioware ignores you? You come off as a whining fanboi not as someone trying to present and objective view. Take a look at the post about the difference in mirror abilities you linked earlier. That was written much more objectively and gave a concise summary and concrete numbers to back it up. You've posted nothing but whining.

 

PS. Mostly I posted to give the thread a 0 star ranking.

Edited February 2, 2012 by sithgrizley

[Dhagaz]

no..gravround does its animation, then maks a "bonk" sound, the bonk is the damage

 

my grav has 1,4 sec cast time with alacrity etc, but the skill dont do any dmage until like 2 seconds.

 

i can however, move after 1.4 seconds and the damage wil still be done after 2 seconds, but i cant use another skill.

 

grav round actually have a 2 second cast time, and not 1.5 seconds, was a bit surprised when testing it the other day.

 

i wouldnt be surprised, if a bh can start casting a new tracer after that 1,5 sec cast is up.

 

maybe that is why tracer seems more spammy? would be nice i anyone with a bh could try it, that would be a HUGE imbalance

 

 

as for mv vs dfa its been said so many times

 

About Grav Round... I don't know about any "Bonk" sound.. I just know I see you cast it... I get hit... damage ticks. I can't Fraps it cause I don't have the program to do it. I can say that I've seen others that frap and the ability seems to dmg while animating not at the end. We agree to disagree.

 

I used to play an Arsenal Spec'ed BH, but dumped it cause I hated how static it felt to me. Tracer is the bread and butter of that build because in order to hit with any real punch you need 5 Heat (ups damage of Heat Seeker) and or 4 Tracer Locks (ups damage of Rail Shot). This was over three weeks ago since I switched to my current build but while I was Arsenal Spec I had to stay for the full cast time to get the damage from Tracer. If I moved before the channel was done it stopped and I would have to recast.

 

MV vs DFA we have to agree to disagree. My Missiles do not normally tick damage until I'm airborn. as I've stated before I've noticed a glitch (recently) that kept me grounded while the Salvos fired, but even then there was a brief pause before the first Salvo.

[savionen]

Terrible thread full of whining, misinformation and outright lies. Not to mention people trying to argue an advantage on both sides of a point.

 

The turret firing timing for one instance. From everything I've seen the way it works is every X seconds all 3 turrets and polled and the shields are deducted from both ships according to the number of opposing guns controlled. This does mean that, say X = 10, you can capture a turret and it can do nothing for 9.9 seconds and the enemy can cap it and it can fire .1 seconds later. That's uniform, no side advantage. I can tell you that I've seen republic capture the guns and get shots off essentially immediately and empire 'lazy gunners'. It's possible it's lag related, but it seems to just be the way the guns are polled. Whining about it is just stupid.

 

Project vs Shock. Instant vs flight time. If you need to interrupt a cap Shock is better. If you want to burst hard then Project is better. The damage spike for say Project -> Pebble Tossing is much larger than Shock -> Lightning. For obvious reasons if your opponent hasn't died or capped in that flight time the higher burst of project is much better. FYI, if something is launched with project and you go out of LoS you are still hit by the damage, not sure about vanish but I see no reason why it would be different.

 

Etc, Etc. From what I can tell the Republic attracted all of the whining kids and the Empire the people who enjoy their (admittedly better) story lines and the people are serious about PvP and raiding.

 

OP, you're so biased it hurts. It's apparent enough that your entire thread can and should be discounted. Ever wonder why Bioware ignores you? You come off as a whining fanboi not as someone trying to present and objective view. Take a look at the post about the difference in mirror abilities you linked earlier. That was written much more objectively and gave a concise summary and concrete numbers to back it up. You've posted nothing but whining.

 

PS. Mostly I posted to give the thread a 0 star ranking.

 

Turrets:

You are wrong. The Republic one has a 5-10 second delay before firing. The Empire version does damage IMMEDIATELY. I've capped the Republic side 5 seconds before Empire capped theirs and we were still lower on points.

 

Project vs Shock

If somebody vanishes project does not hit them. Happens all the time. Floating spinning boulder ahoy.

 

The delayed burst also isn't that great since they can get off a heal while waiting that extra 1.5 seconds. Also anyone would know that the burst is coming, they should see a big red flag with they see a rock floating in the air for 1.5 seconds.

 

Inquisitor's knockback is also instant, whereas the consular's is not. The consular version is terrible for anything that requires precision.

 

In summation you don't know what you're talking about.

[Kellindell]

Thanks for getting to it before me. I love people who come in and just spout off a bunch of hate with no proof, claiming we have no proof despite having a ton of it.

 

"Everything ive seen..." if you watched the videos in this thread alone that statement wouldnt hold true.

[Aidank]

Turrets in Alderaan fire faster for Sith then they do for the republic.

Video proof

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w-vC...ature=youtu.be

Actually it isn't sith specific, it's the turret on the snowy side that gives the extra tick, and it's just that. One tick. If the republic gets the turret then they also get the extra tick.

 

 

-Purple Lightsabers are easier for sith to obtain.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=245930

This is completely subjective, the sith get purple pvp sabers republic gets cyan. Personally I think cyan looks better but you can't call it factional imbalance just because you like purple more than cyan.

 

-Sith Story lines are better/more polished

 

Granted this may be "opinion" but the amount of people who have this opinion is overwhelming.

Again, it's subjective. I liked my smuggler story line a whole lot more than my sith inquisitor storyline.

 

-Fleet VS Fleet

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=249099

Again, subjective, I think the empire's fleet is way too flashy, and gets annoying after a few days hanging around in there. Not to mention fountain the republic gets is very nice looking.

 

Class Differences

 

Smuggler/ Imperial Agent

 

-Smuggler Dirty Kick roots the smuggler in place when it is used, the Imperial Agent mirror Debilitate does not root you in place making it more versatile in PvP which requires mobility.

Running and jumping does not fix this issue, you still get rooted mid air and fall to the ground, you do not use RL physics and travel through the opponent. Not that it matters, one class shouldnt need to use work arounds to be equal with their mirror.

I play a smuggler, the root is quite negligible.

 

-The smuggler Sab Charge has a very long animation and travel time to get onto the opponent where the IA explosive probe drops down instantly. This allows for quicker and more controlled burst from the IA, as well as tying up less time into an animation that could be used doing other things.

This doesn't matter at all, they both detonate on any damage, and go off regardless of whether the animation has finished. The animation makes absolutely no difference.

 

The animation of back blast takes much longer to happen, which much like Sab charge ties the smuggler up in an animation, which also means the damage is not applied as quickly giving the opponent more time to react, or use a heal or defensive cooldown. The IA version is a very quick and instant knife stab.

This is actually one of the main reasons I chose a smuggler, The animation does delay, but it has no effect on the global cooldown. This lets you chain a 3k back blast with a 2.5k sucker punch for 5.5k bursts that can't be healed inbetween, it's actually a major advantage.

 

-Operative Hot injector graphic stays with the player, the scoundrel HoT does not. This allows a player to monitor their heals on large groups simply by looking at them, where as a scoundrel has to click on them and look at their buffs, find his heal and see if it needs to be reapplied. That sort of searching in PvP can lose fights.

Admittedly can be annoying, but hardly that big of a deal.

 

 

I

nquisitor and Consular

 

-Project has a travel time to do damage to its target where Shock does not.

 

Video Proof

 

Some will argue this gives the Consular an advantage. It doesnt. In several instances where you want on demand damage, its simply inferior. Trying to kill someone before crossing the goal in huttball, killing someone casting a heal, killing someone on the run trying to gain line of sight etc... Instant on demand damage will always win.

That being said, it doesnt matter if both abilities become like shock, or both become like project, they are supposed to be the same and they are not,

No, it doesn't It definitely gives the consular the advantage. Burst damage always tops steady damage, this is why back blast is such an advantage, as a healer and a dps alike it is much much harder to heal through burst. And project will go through line of sight if it's casted before the character is around a corner.

 

**If you shock a Operative/Scoundrel or Assassin/Shadow while they are restealthing it will pull them out. But if a project is in mid air and they stealth or vanish, it will not.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Why3t...1&feature=plcp

 

 

Go to around 3:13 you will see a Consular start a project up and the operative never even enters combat and uses vanish, the operative just uses normal restealth and the project does nothing.

 

If that was an SI using shock, they would have prevented the IA from restealthing.

No, it wouldn't have. I've shocked people vanishing before and it's never pulled them out, I don't understand where you got that idea.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raja_Asenn

Assassins get a purple swirl visual effect when Exploit Weakness procs, Shadows don't get a visual effect when Find Weakness procs.

 

It's a big deal. Looking for a tiny green icon with a lightsaber on it in a sea of other tiny green icons with a lightsaber on it is painful.

I'm pretty sure this doesn't constitute a "big deal"

 

And just to add, the sith knockback, overload takes longer to perform than the consular's version, which is actually a really big deal especially in huttball where the extra quarter of a second is the difference between being knocked into the pit or staying on the catwalk.

 

Just pointed out what's wrong with your post, I don't play a merc or sent so I can't comment on the other stuff, but seeing as how you're intentionally making this seem far more one sided than it actually is and distorting or just plain leaving out important information makes me question how accurate that is as well.

[Kyleneari]

I'm just throwing this in there...and please correct me if I'm wrong, but Sorcerer whirlwind is the mirror to force lift, correct? If so, why does force lift heal your target (for a lot I might add) and whirlwind does not. Just wondering, in PvP that really sucks. Edited February 3, 2012 by Kyleneari

[Aidank]

I'm just throwing this in there...and please correct me if I'm wrong, but Sorcerer whirlwind is the mirror to force lift, correct? If so, why does force lift heal your target (for a lot I might add) and whirlwind does not. Just wondering

 

It's cyclone, and cyclone heals strong & elite targets as well. Neither heals targets in pvp.

[Lacressian]

It's cyclone, and cyclone heals strong & elite targets as well. Neither heals targets in pvp.

 

Just to add as well as bump the thread.

 

Force Lift is bugged in so many ways atm lol. When you CC a person with it, for the duration of the CC that player gets 80% or so damage reduction FLAT. No matter what you throw at him - kinetic, elemental, internal whatever, it gets reduced by 80%.

[lnknprk]

As a Commando I agree with mirrors not being mirrors. If their intent was to have differences, fine, but they've lead us to believe that it's supposed to be mirrors with no side having an advantage. I can ignore the ammo vs heat, but DFoA vs MV is just crazy. Things like that should be top priority for Bioware to fix. You just can't advertise them as mirrors when they are not. Bioware didn't add racial abilities for this reason I assume, but yet here we still have the problem where one class is better than it's "mirror."

 

I've personally seen the Alderaan Turret issue. We capped east, held them off west and mid for a bit, then they capped west. We were still fighting over mid, and somehow they were in the lead even though we had capped a turret first.

[terminova]

Its very strange. And yes ive projected dead bodies, but never invisible ones. From a RP stand point it doesnt even make sense. You can see through the force when blind, and fight while blind. An entire eyeless race exists because of this.

 

Even if the guy vanished, you would still be able to use the force to direct the debris at him.

 

I don't believe that would be the case against another Force user. Sure, you'd know they were there, but not necessarily where they were. Unless you were Yoda, maybe.

[greviouz]

Terrible thread full of whining, misinformation and outright lies. Not to mention people trying to argue an advantage on both sides of a point.

 

The turret firing timing for one instance. From everything I've seen the way it works is every X seconds all 3 turrets and polled and the shields are deducted from both ships according to the number of opposing guns controlled. This does mean that, say X = 10, you can capture a turret and it can do nothing for 9.9 seconds and the enemy can cap it and it can fire .1 seconds later. That's uniform, no side advantage. I can tell you that I've seen republic capture the guns and get shots off essentially immediately and empire 'lazy gunners'. It's possible it's lag related, but it seems to just be the way the guns are polled. Whining about it is just stupid.

 

Project vs Shock. Instant vs flight time. If you need to interrupt a cap Shock is better. If you want to burst hard then Project is better. The damage spike for say Project -> Pebble Tossing is much larger than Shock -> Lightning. For obvious reasons if your opponent hasn't died or capped in that flight time the higher burst of project is much better. FYI, if something is launched with project and you go out of LoS you are still hit by the damage, not sure about vanish but I see no reason why it would be different.

 

Etc, Etc. From what I can tell the Republic attracted all of the whining kids and the Empire the people who enjoy their (admittedly better) story lines and the people are serious about PvP and raiding.

 

OP, you're so biased it hurts. It's apparent enough that your entire thread can and should be discounted. Ever wonder why Bioware ignores you? You come off as a whining fanboi not as someone trying to present and objective view. Take a look at the post about the difference in mirror abilities you linked earlier. That was written much more objectively and gave a concise summary and concrete numbers to back it up. You've posted nothing but whining.

 

PS. Mostly I posted to give the thread a 0 star ranking.

 

 

typical empire/sith fanboy attitude that thinks everything is fine cause it doesnt affect the faction he plays on.

 

Come with something Constructive and somewhat fact based and we might take you serious kid

[PanderBeers]

word - i like the diversity in animations, but the technical bits should be equal

 

glad they fixed the slow on jedi knights to move up to 9 seconds... just don't know why it took a month into release to realize this

 

3/4 balance team

1/4 beta testers

[Kellindell]

word - i like the diversity in animations, but the technical bits should be equal

 

glad they fixed the slow on jedi knights to move up to 9 seconds... just don't know why it took a month into release to realize this

 

3/4 balance team

1/4 beta testers

 

Like I said, its nice they brought these things in line (Flashbang and Freezing Force). But it illustrates a bigger issue. They still have only addressed and changed things that had a hard number problem.

 

They still are not addressing any of these "Hidden issue"

 

The only hidden issue they addressed was the one thing republic had in favor of sith, the extra initial tick on Salvation. That was already addressed and fixed to bring it in line with Sith, yet all of these funky animation and other problems still persist, and we are at 80 pages and no dev response.

[Kellindell]

I heard this belongs at the top.

[Kellindell]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=268956

 

 

Another thread to watch.

 

We as a community need to keep as many of these threads bumped to the top to the point where the entire first page of the PvP forums is nothing but this until the devs are forced to respond.

[Kellindell]

I guess that is becouse the Empire side wasent the one that benefited from it

 

That is the point im making.

 

Pointed out on forums (something that favors republic) WHAM fixed immediately and gets a dev response.

 

80 page thread clearly and concisely pointing out the enormous amount of things favoring imperials...

 

No dice.

[Atlerik]

Being a republic trooper player, all I can say is:

 

Word.

 

This really has to be looked into and fixed asap.

[worsin]

WoW started out with different skills and classes on each side and realized it didnt work when your doing ranked matches. Now if you notice you can be a paladin on Horde and a Shaman on Alliance.

 

Why SWTOR didnt learn from Blizzards mistakes ill never know.

 

Rookie mistake now that a billion dollar company has paved the way for them essentially.

[Jugglenaut]

I've played Commando DPS and Mercenary DPS in warzones and there is a huge difference, the Commando is my main, he was higher level and really well equipped, but was awful in PvP. The Mercenary, who I haven't even bothered to get used to the skills of too much and isn't that well equipped, can hold his own very well in PvP.

 

More attacks before Ammo runs out

 

More damage dealt also I've noticed

 

Much faster fire rate.

 

Able to take more damage.

 

Thats from experience playing as both.