Make Mirror classes actual mirrors

[Setarcos]

Thank you OP! Concur that Bioware needs to fix this. The sooner the better to bring back balance between the two sides.

[trklol]

Bump this everyday Edited January 1, 2012 by trklol

[bobbys]

BH unload operates better then full auto, although I need more elaboration on that.

 

No electrocute doesn't do anything when your resolve bar goes into effect. You don't know what you're talking about.

 

Just for sake of conversation, you have to fill your resolve bar to the max, for it to go into effect. The bar changes from purple to white and trickles down back to zero, during this stage you are immune to CC.

 

Unload does take push back if you get hit. You have valid points but half of this stuff you didn't even confirm before posting. If you don't check your facts, then yeah you pretty much don't know what you're talking about.

 

Also, Mortar Volley animations may not sync up as well as death from above, but the trooper actually gets all of his damage ticks off before the completion of the animation. This is actually an biased towards REPUBLIC, not to mention it's not super obvious like the BH version which everyone stuns. I've played a Trooper to 30 and BH to 50, Troopers have the advantage in that regard when it comes to that ability.

Edited January 1, 2012 by bobbys

[Darren_Kitlor]

/fail OP

 

If you don't understand that some abilities will be better and some worse, I'm not sure that mirroring will help you.

 

OP is the type who'd like rock-paper-scissors nerfed into rock, rock, rock.

[Kellindell]

/fail OP

 

If you don't understand that some abilities will be better and some worse, I'm not sure that mirroring will help you.

 

OP is the type who'd like rock-paper-scissors nerfed into rock, rock, rock.

 

Another ignorant post.

 

This isnt about some abilities being better then others, this is about the same abilities not being the same.

 

Im guessing you are another person who doesnt understand what a mirror is, its been explained a million times but I guess ill do it again.

 

Smugglers and Troopers have similar abilities, but smuggler and trooper are two different classes, so having different abilities is obviously the point otherwise just have one class.

 

Smuggler and Imperial Agent however are the same class. Different skin/animations but the same class. Some people think this game has 16 classes, it doesnt. It has 8.

 

When all the abilities of the Imperial Agent work better then those of the smuggler for one reason or another, that is called imbalance.

 

Add to the fact that every single difference mentioned in this thread favors one faction and that their is no give and take it points even harder to imbalance.

 

When an MMO puts factional PvP into the game they have two choices.

1)Mirror the classes, and make everything exactly the same on both sides

 

2)Make different classes for each faction, and hope they can find a way to balance it out.

 

 

Bioware went with number 1, but since they put all these pretty animations into the game it created a loophole no game has seen before because each side has different animations.

 

I just find it suspect that the animations all favor Sith, giving them a distinct advantage similar to WoW racials that bioware said they werent going to do. They essentially found a way to invisibly buff ONE faction.

 

Im guessing you read alot of terms on forums and dont know what they mean, because you also misused the Rock paper scissors analogy. This isnt about rock rock rock.

 

If it were, id say make smugglers the same as troopers. That is what that means.

 

This is about one side having Sharp Kitchen shears, and the other side having those plastic dulled out crayola kids scissors.

[Kellindell]

My main is republic commando and jedi sage, but dammit if everybody and their brother didn't tell me how awesome the imperial agent and bounty hunter storylines are, so I rolled one just for the story, and now I'm playing imperial more than my republic main and loving it. It was peer pressure!

 

But yeah, after playing on republic for so long before my switch, Its pretty amazing how many people are playing imp. Fleet is always full, groups always forming. But you gotta wait for a PvP queue, and its lots of huttball, etc.

 

Overall I think it is more fun on the PvP side to be republic, thats for sure.

 

I would been happy to roll republic if everything about the faction wasn't unappealing. A couple of my guildies even rolled republic for the last beta build, we wanted to hang ourselves.

 

 

No thanks.

 

The jedi consular quests so far have been kinda like what you described so far though, a bit underwhelming.

 

It's really sad how much more interesting the Imperial class stories are. I was convinced I would play Republic, and beta tested Republic the first 2 wipes, and then gave Imps a try.

 

My husband, and I were blown away by the engaging stories for imps.

 

The trooper one was the best, I thought, for republic, but the JK story was a bore fest.

 

 

 

 

 

This is something else id like to bring up.

 

I hear this all the time, and ive been watching my wife level a consular and going inside her story quests and man its drab.

 

Also, currently she has one companion that hates whenever she takes the light side option, and another companion who hates whenever she uses Jedi powers. Why are these her companions?

 

This is another reason Sith is kind of buffed over Empire, its very obvious sith side got the better story writers as this is something people are constantly talking about, and its having people move over to Sith just to "try" the story and they end up staying.

 

From what I gather the only good story is smuggler, and that is statistically the least player class.

 

Bioware appears to have an obvious favorite, and it has created an uninteresting under dog faction, and that isnt fair to the people who have wanted to be republic all along, and are slogging through pvp right now.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Kellindell

[darkapocrypha]

Don't know if it was mentioned (kind of in a hurry), but the IA's explosive probe, and the scoundrel's sabotage charge are also different. In favor of the IA, of course :-P

The IA's skill happens immediately, which means you can charge up ambush or snipe, and right as it finishes cast explosive probe, and the probe will detonate from the ambush/snipe. Basically in you do a crap load of burst damage.

 

With the smuggler, there is actually travel time on the sabotage charge, so it's impossible to do the same combo, and requires a 3rd shot to detonate it.

 

I enjoy playing both classes, but the IA has a clear advantage in burst damage here.

[biowareftw]

IE Dirty Kick and Project and the sith mirrors, im not sure what else exists, but mirrors need to be actual mirrors, or one side gets an advantage.

 

The IA version of dirty kick does not stop the movement of the IA using it, but dirty kick does. When you use dirty kick as a smuggler, it roots you in place to perform the animation This may seem like a little thing, but when you are trying to stop a huttball runner, or kick someone as you run through them to back blast someone... it makes a huge difference in a twitch based class.

 

Not to mention, its just not fair. Mirrors should be mirrors, dont go the WAR route and make mirror classes that are only 80% mirrors. We saw how that worked out with the KOTBS mirror and its spirit damage procs.

 

Project has a travel time, the sith equivalent does not. Again this is a huge advantage for the sith side even if you think it is just something small, it isnt. Think about running in huttball. A guy may cross the goal line before that project that would have killed him reaches him, where as a Sith would have finished him off.

 

PvP is about squeezing out every little bit of everything you can to beat your opponent. Right now the Sith Empire has a few advantages over republic, and although may seem small, nothing is small when it comes to PvP.

 

 

Also while you are at it, take a look at electrocute. From what I gather from reading and doing actual PvP, nothing stops this ability. It stuns people with full resolve bars, it pulls people out of cover, and when a scoundrel blows dodge (for you WoW players its cloak of shadows) it still lands. In fact, i was playing my scoundrel who had a full resolve bar and dodge up, and I got stunned by electrocute.

 

Force stun definitely doesnt do any of that.

 

Leading up to the game several of the Devs talked about how awesome the Sith Empire was, and how they would be playing Sith. And now look at these discrepancies, look at the numbers of sith VS reps on PvP servers and the discussions people are having about the pop imbalance and how open world is becoming insane and people are rerolling sith etc...

 

And then think about how this exact same thing happened in WoW when some of the Devs went public and said they played horde.

 

When is a faction based video games developers NOT going to repeat this mistake.

 

Is the fact that sith are favored necessarily true? No, not 100% irrefutable. But the fact is the Devs are creating that impression, and we all know perception is reality to the masses.

 

Lets bring the classes in line before this whole thing spirals out of control, aside from the fact that it is just the right thing to do.

 

Edit-

 

I want people to realize this isnt about all classes being the same, this is about the fact that their are 8 classes in this game, not 16. Gunslinger and Sniper are one class, not two. Scoundrel and operative are the same class, Sage and Sorcerer are the same class.

 

Logistically these classes should be the same so their is balance between factions.

 

This is about factional balance, NOT CLASS BALANCE.

 

Its not about Sorcerers being the same as bounty hunters, its about sorcerers being the same as sage, and Knights being the same as warriors.

 

As someone said, you cannot spec out of what animations do to you, nothing changes this. And as it stands right now, it seems sith have all the better animations that lead to better and faster usage of abilities.

 

So right now here is the list as I see it so far.

 

BH unload operates better then full auto, although I need more elaboration on that.

 

BH Death from Above does its damage more immediately then mortar volley and thus is harder to avoid. if you watch Trooper PvP videos you can actually see how often mortar volley doesnt do any damage because of this, I just didnt realize this was the reason.

 

SI shock does its damage immediately leading to better on demand burst, where as project as more of an RP animation and a travel time.

 

Smuggler Dirty kick stops the forward movement OF THE SMUGGLER, where as the IA version does not stop the forward movement of the IA. In other words, when a smuggler uses dirty kick it roots them in place, this is not so for IA's.

 

IA flash bang is on a 60 seconds CD, smugglers is on a 90 second CD. Otherwise the skills are exactly the same. So why does one class get a shorter cooldown on the exact same skill?

 

Edit-

 

Here is the full auto issue

 

 

 

 

Edit-

IA backstab happens instantly where as the smuggler back blast requires the animation of pulling out a shotgun, leveling it, blasting it and putting it away.

 

Was blown away that flash grenade and flash bang have not been made to have the same cooldown. 30 second advantage on a CC is just silly. Have bug reported this for last week.

[Arayk]

So right now here is the list as I see it so far.

 

BH unload operates better then full auto, although I need more elaboration on that.

 

BH Death from Above does its damage more immediately then mortar volley and thus is harder to avoid. if you watch Trooper PvP videos you can actually see how often mortar volley doesnt do any damage because of this, I just didnt realize this was the reason.

 

SI shock does its damage immediately leading to better on demand burst, where as project as more of an RP animation and a travel time.

 

Smuggler Dirty kick stops the forward movement OF THE SMUGGLER, where as the IA version does not stop the forward movement of the IA. In other words, when a smuggler uses dirty kick it roots them in place, this is not so for IA's.

 

IA flash bang is on a 60 seconds CD, smugglers is on a 90 second CD. Otherwise the skills are exactly the same. So why does one class get a shorter cooldown on the exact same skill?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Yeah totally unbalanced, especially the ******** unload versus full auto complaint. The reason someone wasn't seeing push back was because there is a talent in the arsenal/gunnery tree to prevent that. Also BH unload is based around accuracy where the trooper unload does full weapon damage. Meaning I have to hit with my offhand weapon to do my 30% extra damage, where the trooper gets to hit for 30% extra damage because he has an autocannon. So generally the troopers does more damage. Also tracer missile has a travel time as opposed to the gravity round which dosen't, heatseeker missle has a travel time as well. Yes it's minuscule but so are half the things the op is talking about.

 

 

Death from above as opposed to mortar is silly, they aren't different played both classes to 20 used the ability plenty of times, mortar just dosen't look as cool.

[Kellindell]

Anyone else a little mad this wasnt mentioned once in the PvP update that is incoming?

[Kellindell]

Bump this everyday

 

Seriously, it keeps getting pushed down.

 

I need people to subscribe to this thread and rate it so it gets stars and stays towards the top.

[Cameirus]

Commando grenades Vs merc missiles.

 

Seriously try healing on both...kolto bomb, by the time it hits everyone has moved, much easier with missile.

 

Stock strike, takes ages to activate, rocket punch is instant (which is not only a useful close in ability, its also a knockback...)

 

Smuggler - damm cant remember the name "sticky bomb"? = travel time as opposed to the IA probe droid thingy.

 

 

 

Were the republic animation makers even in the office half the time, the quality differntial is apalling.

[Kellindell]

Already touched on the Probe VS sab charge.

 

Can you get into more detail about the Kolto bomb equivalent please?

[Sneakymcstab]

IA backstab happens instantly where as the smuggler back blast requires the animation of pulling out a shotgun, leveling it, blasting it and putting it away.

 

That's actually false, the damage happens before the animation is over.

[Wheldrake]

Oh my god the advanced classes are NOT true mirrors. They are mechanically the same but there are small differences that give the Sith a major advantage in PVP, and I suspect even in PVE which allows them to level faster, and thus piss off all the republic whiners that they dont want to be in PVP combat with such higher levels.

 

Go play a Sith Sorc. ,and then play a SAGE and come back here and tell me they are the exact same. I have done it, and I know that they arent the same. They work the same for the most part. Sith tools are better for PVP hands down. Maybe it was meant to be that way. If so Bioware should come out and say that. Everyone knows Sith tend to be more powerful. I mean they dont call it the dark side for nothing!

 

One fix would be allow people who are LIGHT or Dark to access certain powers or have certain modifiers to their powers, but this would make most people run to the dark side. Unless lightside got signficant special abilities.

If I had any input in creating this game I would have given everyone the same abilities, and only certain ones would show up based on your alignment. Or you lose light site points for using a dark ability.... This would obviously make the game alot more complicated but it would allow both sides to wield the same powers.

 

Or just change the small differences between the classes so they match up identically. Holy crap could you imagine if TK throw had a root... That would be nasty!

[Fumouffu]

I didn't know about this. These are such amateur mistakes.

 

This is what's bugging me. These are silly noon mistakes. Pvping is the only thing that keeps me playing a game, job, all that jazz means I don't over like I used to when I was 20. The argument that its a new Mmmm release isn't valid. Mmo release is oldhat for the industry now and these arnt bugs, they are clear imbalances in design. If they want to be longterm, then you can't ignore pvping. Too many people just wont put up with it. Its actually far more important than over endgame as far as a mass draw.

[CelesWylder]

/bump

[Vastian]

Did not read whole thread. So if it was said, sorry.

 

A prominent game developer once said: balance is boring.

[sildoor]

Wake up bump!

[OMGToast]

the OP is right.

 

hes saying to keep the class mirrors unique in that, lets say for example, a warrior does not have similar moves a sorc has.

 

what he is saying is that between the faction mirrors, lets say shadow vs assassin, there are issues with balancing.

 

empire side animations are faster and more effective to the classes causing. republic animations are often longer and the damage is not always instant whereas sith abilities are faster and damage quicker.

 

THE DAMAGE RATIOS ARE THE SAME BUT THE ANIMATIONS ARE NOT (thus causing imbalance)

 

if any of your have taken pvp serious at a high level before then you would agree that a 1 second delay on a ability can completely ruin a game.

[RealAeiouy]

How about they just allow us to join a guild screw the faction perspective and allow guilds to PvP other guilds.

 

Actually I'm being serious, and then you don't have to worry about what Faction has what.

 

 

Because that makes zero sense in star wars.

 

Also I am against mirror classes being identical.

[ZeroGravitySE]

/5star

[Senefera]

Project definitely have damage synced with the animation and not with the cast itself.

 

I am a healer, so it is my main burst. When I duel the only other thing that does damage is Weakened Mind, a very tiny DoT. If my target is low on health I will win the duel as Project lands, not as I cast. If we are both low on health and use an ability at the same time I will loose the duel since Project is busy hanging in the air, looking pretty.

 

In PvP I have failed to interrupt many people capping doors/turrets because of this animation time. I have failed to burst down healers before they got that heal off. I very rarely land a killing blow as the target will be dead by the time Project lands.

 

I like the animation, and the delay doesn't bother me that much. What bothers me is that Sith have it instant, which is very unfair. Project does hit quite hard, and as someone mentioned; in PvP every single second counts.

[Torleen]

Lots of great data added to this argument in this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=136053

 

Some highlights here:

 

Actually the Operative has a number of advantages over the Scoundrel:

 

Operative Abilities in Red, Scoundrel Abilities in Blue

 

Accomplished Doctor vs Accomplished Sawbones - Critical healing bonus is 10%/20%/30% on Operative whereas 5%/10%/15% on Scoundrel

Flash Bang vs Flash Grenade - Flash Bang has a 60 second CD while Flash Grenade, the Scoundrel version has a 90 second CD

Debilitate vs Dirty Kick - Debilitate can be used on the move while Dirty Kick forces you to stop.

 

Accomplished Doctor:

http://www.torhead.com/ability/86nQ9PR

 

Accomplished Sawbones:

http://www.torhead.com/ability/gjPW4oM

 

Flash Bang:

http://www.torhead.com/ability/f5R2qsF

 

Flash Grenade:

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fT8pWgj

 

This is how it is in-game as well, you can easily check.

 

There are a lot of other problems linked to this, and I do somewhat agree with the attitude of he OP when suspecting that there is some form of favoritism.

 

I work in advertising, and I knew from watching the "Decieved" trailer the Empire was going to be the over populated faction right away. Trailers should not matter but they do, I watched as more and more of my friends wanted to play Empire, including people who were hardcore Rebels in SWG as each trailer came out. In "Decieved" the imperials flat out roll the Republic. In "Hope" in order to defeat Malgus Satele spends the whole fight getting her arse stomped and only with the intervention of the trooper does she even survive. Let alone win. Then in the last trailer who's name escapes me Satele's master does ok for a while and then gets outright destroyed by Malgus.

 

From a marketing perspective, if they wanted people to play Republic, they failed. Hard.

 

Meanwhile, aesthetically the imperial classes look and feel much more interesting. I have had all sorts of trouble getting friends to join our faction because everything just looks cooler on the other side.

 

I am hardcore Rebel and Republic and will not be changing that, but in the meantime PVP is suffering hardcore. At first I thought it was just going to be a population issue but the very real math here is making what I suspected just from analyzing the advertising all the more apparent.

 

Some of these glaring differences are like "Wait... how did they REALLY think that would be ok? a THIRTY SECOND difference on a cooldown? Really?"

 

It creates situations where the trailers are directly reflective of what PVP ends up being like.

[biowareftw]

Lots of great data added to this argument in this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=136053

 

Some highlights here:

 

 

 

 

 

There are a lot of other problems linked to this, and I do somewhat agree with the attitude of he OP when suspecting that there is some form of favoritism.

 

I work in advertising, and I knew from watching the "Decieved" trailer the Empire was going to be the over populated faction right away. Trailers should not matter but they do, I watched as more and more of my friends wanted to play Empire, including people who were hardcore Rebels in SWG as each trailer came out. In "Decieved" the imperials flat out roll the Republic. In "Hope" in order to defeat Malgus Satele spends the whole fight getting her arse stomped and only with the intervention of the trooper does she even survive. Let alone win. Then in the last trailer who's name escapes me Satele's master does ok for a while and then gets outright destroyed by Malgus.

 

From a marketing perspective, if they wanted people to play Republic, they failed. Hard.

 

Meanwhile, aesthetically the imperial classes look and feel much more interesting. I have had all sorts of trouble getting friends to join our faction because everything just looks cooler on the other side.

 

I am hardcore Rebel and Republic and will not be changing that, but in the meantime PVP is suffering hardcore. At first I thought it was just going to be a population issue but the very real math here is making what I suspected just from analyzing the advertising all the more apparent.

 

Some of these glaring differences are like "Wait... how did they REALLY think that would be ok? a THIRTY SECOND difference on a cooldown? Really?"

 

It creates situations where the trailers are directly reflective of what PVP ends up being like.

 

Things that need changed immediately.

 

Aoe dot heals on sorc in madness tree not in balance tree. Take away any advantage the lightning tree has on republic since NOONE PVPS WITH THAT SPEC ANYWAYS.

 

90 second cooldown on flash grenade 60 on flash bang. Simply no excuse for this.

 

Heal crit bonus on scoundrel and IA needs to be same. Again simply no excuse for this. IT screws over a Smuggler healer in pve and pvp.

 

Project needs the same instant dmg as it's mirror or the mirror needs the delay. Why? Because it is used to reveal people from stealth and stop flag caps. It IS a big deal.

 

How things like this are even in the game amaze me. It isn't enough to screw one faction over on animations but they need stupid stuff like this in the game?

 

I bug reported this stuff last week. There is literally no excuse for a mirror class that is already worse in every way because of animations to be screwed over further with 30 seconds added to their CC. I was shocked that this wasn't patched on Tuesday.

 

What do they have to change? 1 line of code to make cooldowns and abilities the same? It is a JOKE that the cooldown timer and crit bonus differences were not hotfixed a day after release. To be honest? It never should have made it out of beta.