The PVP community has spoken...how does Keith respond?

[Ghost_Spectre]

You're welcome. I hate it when people try deflect from the truth, in this case your analogy of Coke vs BW decision-making process.

 

I've heard this statement before, "You cannot gear up your toons through CXP boxes with 248 gear. Really? I have 3 melee tanks. 2 Juggs and 1 Guardian lvl 70 tanks. My main is fully equipped with all 248 and 236 augments. I obtained all my gear via CXP. Conversely, I have geared up my two remaining tanks with 248 gear for the right side including mainhand and off-hand. I can provide a screenshot for proof for those naysayers. It is possible. Why did I do that? I'm the only one left...well...I was we now have 4 people in both (light/dark). I've not been able to raid until recently when I put 3 of my toons in a guild I was invited to join by one of my viewers.

 

This the path BW should've followed. No changes to gearing. They want to make it possible to craft, so be it. They want those mats for come from bosses in NiM GOTM? So be it. However, not allowing me to exchange all my legendary 248 shells for 258 is really disheartening and stupid. Neither of my mains can participate in NiM now. I have 12 fully skilled crafters I cannot use because I have not access to the mats. And, I'm not going to drop a few hundred dollars on the crap shoot that is the CM to sell stuff on GTN to raise money for mats I know are going to cost more than 242 augments at their current level for one item.

 

With these change, they've essentially slammed the door shut on me to participate in NiM ops because they've force capped my gear with these change. Luckily for me, I've been able to keep my displeasure known to some extent to my twitch viewers when this discussion comes up. LOL

Edited November 1, 2018 by Ghost_Spectre

[Lhancelot]

If people choose to leave over a small update that admittedly wasnt intended for them, they were likely already on their way out and looking for something to blame it on.

 

This could be true in some circumstances but you can't make sweeping generalizations like this because people sitting on the fence so-to-speak could go either way.

 

The fact of the matter is there are always fringe players who are not full-on fanatical zealots that support a game no matter what, and for these players it is the game's responsibility to give them reasons to stay and continue to play.

 

If the game fails to give players incentives to play, well, obviously the players will leave.

 

By shrinking and marginalizing how you can effectively gear on SWTOR they are reducing how appealing the game is to a wider group of players. It's not difficult to understand this will hurt the game's population.

 

imo it's not a small update, the incoming changes are actually quite game-changing.

[olagatonjedi]

You're welcome. I hate it when people try deflect from the truth, in this case your analogy of Coke vs BW decision-making process.

 

I've heard this statement before, "You cannot gear up your toons through CXP boxes with 248 gear. Really? I have 3 melee tanks. 2 Juggs and 1 Guardian lvl 70 tanks. My main is fully equipped with all 248 and 236 augments. I obtained all my gear via CXP. Conversely, I have geared up my two remaining tanks with 248 gear for the right side including mainhand and off-hand. I can provide a screenshot for proof for those naysayers. It is possible. Why did I do that? I'm the only one left...well...I was we now have 4 people in both (light/dark). I've not been able to raid until recently when I put 3 of my toons in a guild I was invited to join by one of my viewers.

 

This the path BW should've followed. No changes to gearing. They want to make it possible to craft, so be it. They want those mats for come from bosses in NiM GOTM? So be it. However, not allowing me to exchange all my legendary 248 shells for 258 is really disheartening and stupid. Neither of my mains can participate in NiM now. I have 12 fully skilled crafters I cannot use because I have not access to the mats. And, I'm not going to drop a few hundred dollars on the crap shoot that is the CM to sell stuff on GTN to raise money for mats I know are going to cost more than 242 augments at their current level for one item.

 

With these change, they've essentially slammed the door shut on me to participate in NiM ops because they've force capped my gear with these change. Luckily for me, I've been able to keep my displeasure known to some extent to my twitch viewers when this discussion comes up. LOL

It sounds like you dont grasp their intentions.

 

If someone tells you they will give someone a million dollars if they catch a deep sea animal, but they dont automatically give you a boat, scuba gear and a wespon, it is safe to presume that its not intended to be easy, not intended for most people, and not intended to be the same as the city's local monthly contest that even kids can participate in and win.

 

BW isnt failing with this decision. The community is failing at understanding its purpose.

[olagatonjedi]

This could be true in some circumstances but you can't make sweeping generalizations like this because people sitting on the fence so-to-speak could go either way.

 

The fact of the matter is there are always fringe players who are not full-on fanatical zealots that support a game no matter what, and for these players it is the game's responsibility to give them reasons to stay and continue to play.

Exactly what they are doing. Those fringe players DO include nim players, crafters, and rich players, right? I havent seen much content for them, but plenty for just about every other population.

 

If this was a large update intended for everyone, i would agree the system isnt ideal for that purpose, but its not.

Edited November 1, 2018 by olagatonjedi

[Lhancelot]

BW isnt failing with this decision. The community is failing at understanding its purpose.

 

I'd be curious to hear their explanation as to what these changes are supposed to accomplish, because I have read what changes they plan to make but no real discussion on their part as to why.

 

Have they really done that, and if so can someone show me a link to an article they wrote, post they created, or video where they explain why they want to create another gear grind? One that involves raiding as the main component to getting gears/mats for gears?

 

People are theorizing why but I have not seen anything from the actual game designers explaining this.

[KendraP]

I'd be curious to hear their explanation as to what these changes are supposed to accomplish, because I have read what changes they plan to make but no real discussion on their part as to why.

 

Have they really done that, and if so can someone show me a link to an article they wrote, post they created, or video where they explain why they want to create another gear grind? One that involves raiding as the main component to getting gears/mats for gears?

 

People are theorizing why but I have not seen anything from the actual game designers explaining this.

 

We will never know, because they will never see the need to explain any of their decisions. They just assume we will stick around no matter what, which seems abysmally stupid considering how many people they have run off with bad decisions in the past.

[Ghost_Spectre]

It sounds like you dont grasp their intentions.

 

If someone tells you they will give someone a million dollars if they catch a deep sea animal, but they dont automatically give you a boat, scuba gear and a wespon, it is safe to presume that its not intended to be easy, not intended for most people, and not intended to be the same as the city's local monthly contest that even kids can participate in and win.

 

BW isnt failing with this decision. The community is failing at understanding its purpose.

 

So, it your mind's eye, it is okay for them to put this out that puts barriers and isolates the gaming community? That's its okay for a very select few to have access to gear in a very short period of time, while the rest will spend upwards to a year attempting to do the same (allowing for a maximum time period) and others (PVP centric, no PVE at all) who have to fight through facing players who PVP and participate in NiM ops with said gear and relive this issue again. Especially now that they my or are bolstering to 242 and 236 (augs). That's okay with you?

 

Yes, I fully grasp their intentions. I've seen this before. It is the sole reason I quit playing Blade and Soul after reaching max level of gear that took me 9 months to complete. Only to have them make all that work worthless with new gear and new method to obtain it...more gear and tools hidden behind their PVP wall. It is not possible for me to compete in PvP with the poor latency issues I have otherwise, I'd stayed with the game. This is why I have called BW's new system a Korean style grind fest.

 

This is exactly how they do it. BW is doing the same, but with a different method. The latter forces players into situations that they don't want to be in and, at the end of the day, more than likely will leave the game. Where you here for Update 1.2? Did you enjoy seeing ghost towns made of all planets and fleet? Not saying this is the case; however, BW never learns from these mistakes, ever. If you think so, how about 5.0 companion nerf? 5.8 Conquest changes, 5.9 blanket tank nerf. There's plenty more. Hopefully, you get my point.

 

It also means I cannot join someone's team needing a pug, because I don't have a required number of geared slots of 258/242 they want to participate. This is fair? For everyone? Or is it just beneficial to the smallest community within SWTOR's community? This does not promote inclusiveness that they have spoken to a number of times over the last half of a decade.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Ghost_Spectre

[Toraak]

It sounds like you dont grasp their intentions.

 

If someone tells you they will give someone a million dollars if they catch a deep sea animal, but they dont automatically give you a boat, scuba gear and a wespon, it is safe to presume that its not intended to be easy, not intended for most people, and not intended to be the same as the city's local monthly contest that even kids can participate in and win.

 

BW isnt failing with this decision. The community is failing at understanding its purpose.

 

to be blunt, the community understands clearly, and from everything i've seen on these forums are telling BW outright that they believe BW is outright wrong. The community has had access to BiS gear since 4.0 that has been easy to get. 4.0 had the Highlighted HM's that gave out BiS gear. When 5.0 came out BW put in the grind for GC, and many people hated it (including me at the start). It wasn't until 5.2 when UC's came out and they started buffing the amount of CXP we got for various activities (including the bugged dailies), and the Operation drops they put back in that the GC system became good. After 5.2 came out gearing alts became viable again. I know I have full 248 gear on 10 different characters.

 

Now this new system comes out, and it appears the people on the forums at least who do not do NiM content regardless if it's due to player skill, or lack of interest in NiM are saying the alternative way of gearing will be to much of a grind to waste time on.

 

If people feel it a waste of time to do a grind, then they'll spend less time in game, or decide to drop subscriptions altogether. I will keep subscribing personally, but ignore 258's completely.

 

I know for myself I will not bother with the 258 gear on my main because I will NEVER go through Kotfe/kotet on that character. I will not lose my original companions. I understand I could in theory skip them and go to the daily area, however I will not because it'll then autocomplete both expansions and the Alerts after that.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Toraak

[olagatonjedi]

I'd be curious to hear their explanation as to what these changes are supposed to accomplish, because I have read what changes they plan to make but no real discussion on their part as to why.

 

Have they really done that, and if so can someone show me a link to an article they wrote, post they created, or video where they explain why they want to create another gear grind? One that involves raiding as the main component to getting gears/mats for gears?

 

People are theorizing why but I have not seen anything from the actual game designers explaining this.

I doubt they will ever come out and directly say what their complete intentions are for this update because they also dont want to minimize the effort or minimize the next big update. There is a clous hovering over swtor that is 6.0 and new gear with possible level change for everyone, so its obvious to me that the intention is to appeal to those smaller populations that i mentioned already. This has been the trend for a couple years now, and is a continuation of such. Story, pvp, strongholds, raiders, nim raiders, CM market, flashpoints - all of these populations have been given something in recent memory that benefits them. Those updates dont necessarily benefit players who choose to limit themselves to one aspect, but they get theirs when its their turn. If they decide to play more content, they will get more updates, obviously.

[olagatonjedi]

We will never know, because they will never see the need to explain any of their decisions. They just assume we will stick around no matter what, which seems abysmally stupid considering how many people they have run off with bad decisions in the past.

I dont believe they are assuming anything. They are likely sticking to the plan they originally set out to accomplish, seeing it through instead of dropping it at the first sign of malcontent like previous devs. They will never make everyone haply at all times, including you and I, but when they put together a comprehensive list of everything they've added (like they did last year), it shows how widespread and plentiful the new content was. Its my belief that a lot of the malcontent thats expressed is due to short memories, and casually tossing aside other updates that didnt impact each specific players interests. It doesnt mean content wasnt peovided though.

[olagatonjedi]

So, it your mind's eye, it is okay for them to put this out that puts barriers and isolates the gaming community? That's its okay for a very select few to have access to gear in a very short period of time, while the rest will spend upwards to a year attempting to do the same (allowing for a maximum time period) and others (PVP centric, no PVE at all) who have to fight through facing players who PVP and participate in NiM ops with said gear and relive this issue again. Especially now that they my or are bolstering to 242 and 236 (augs). That's okay with you?

Spoken like someone who is not part of a minority group. NIM players, multi-faceted players, and to some extent crafters have ALWAYS had an advantage of potentially getting gear faster than others. Whether they chose to or not is up to each individual. They took away the incentive to do NIM content by introducing CXP crates, so i view this as giving these players a short-term advantage again, without breaking the whole system. When only NIM players could flaunt BIS gear, it was a broken and underutilized system because it was extremely limiting AND went on for YEARS. This update is not going to last for more than a few months (i give it a year max before a new, universal gear accumulating system arrives that will be much more friendly to everyone). And remember, nothing in this game is being changed to require the new gear, an oft forgotten fact.

 

Yes, I fully grasp their intentions. I've seen this before. It is the sole reason I quit playing Blade and Soul after reaching max level of gear that took me 9 months to complete. Only to have them make all that work worthless with new gear and new method to obtain it...more gear and tools hidden behind their PVP wall. It is not possible for me to compete in PvP with the poor latency issues I have otherwise, I'd stayed with the game. This is why I have called BW's new system a Korean style grind fest.

You just described a classic MMO, my friend. Grind, gear, update, grind again, gear again, update. I think you may have unrealistic expectations.

[olagatonjedi]

Now this new system comes out, and it appears the people on the forums at least who do not do NiM content regardless if it's due to player skill, or lack of interest in NiM are saying the alternative way of gearing will be to much of a grind to waste time on.

 

If people feel it a waste of time to do a grind, then they'll spend less time in game, or decide to drop subscriptions altogether. I will keep subscribing personally, but ignore 258's completely.

If people that dont nim raid or have lots of money are going into this update expecting to gear out all their toons in 258s, they are going to be sorely disappointed - because their expectations are misplaced. If BW tells me their next update is going to focus on strongholds, im not going to expect to see a new raid. This is as obvious an example as you can make regarding the playerbase not understanding.

 

If the target population isnt you, and you dont plan to participate, then view it as no new update is coming until the next one that includes you. Just keep going about your business as though their is no update. Again, the challenge within the swtor world isnt getting harder, so technically there isnt even any update happening.

[Toraak]

If people that dont nim raid or have lots of money are going into this update expecting to gear out all their toons in 258s, they are going to be sorely disappointed - because their expectations are misplaced. If BW tells me their next update is going to focus on strongholds, im not going to expect to see a new raid. This is as obvious an example as you can make regarding the playerbase not understanding.

 

If the target population isnt you, and you dont plan to participate, then view it as no new update is coming until the next one that includes you. Just keep going about your business as though their is no update. Again, the challenge within the swtor world isnt getting harder, so technically there isnt even any update happening.

 

Except just because I do not NiM raid doesn't mean I should have to grind ten times more then NiM raiders.The grind should be the same for everyone. All new tiers of gear are for everyone at this stage of the game. Thinking otherwise is just silly. Just because someone doesn't need better gear doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to get it for all of the characters they play. The Days of NiM raiders getting the best gear went out the door a long time ago, especially since PvP, and PvE use the same gear now.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Toraak

[olagatonjedi]

Except just because I do not NiM raid doesn't mean I should have to grind ten times more then NiM raiders.The grind should be the same for everyone. All new tiers of gear are for everyone at this stage of the game. Thinking otherwise is just silly. Just because someone doesn't need better gear doesn't mean that they shouldn't be able to get it for all of the characters they play. The Days of NiM raiders getting the best gear went out the door a long time ago, especially since PvP, and PvE use the same gear now.

Sounds like you dont get it.

 

Based on the way BW is putting out this update, i would strongly believe that if you dont NIM raid, they dont want you to have the gear, at least not without going through many obstacles.

 

I should believe you have a better grasp on their intentions rather than concluding what their intentions are based on the information they have provided? Um ok. It doesnt take much to interpret their intentions if you step back a moment and look at the big picture. Ive been right in the past in reading them, despite heavy amounts of counter arguments, and im confident ill be right again with this.

Edited November 1, 2018 by olagatonjedi

[TUXs]

LOL this is true after my prolonged debate with him over conquest.

People really just need to stop replying to him...the forums would be better.

[Lhancelot]

People really just need to stop replying to him...the forums would be better.

 

As much as I disagree with him I still read his posts because sometimes a differing perspective can be enlightening, in different ways. I also consider the possibility his perspective is similar to those of the devs, and that makes it more interesting for me to read his posts. My ego prefers to find posts in agreement with my own, but it's good to stick my head out of the echo chamber sometimes.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Lhancelot

[Mournblood]

Sounds like you dont get it.

Ive never said they can do no wrong, but more often than not, as has been documented on these very forums, the general public doesnt understand much about the intricacies of business and/or mmos

 

Oh, we get it, Olag. You're just smarter than everyone else here. We are the

. Someday you'll succeed at ruling SWTOR. Edited November 1, 2018 by Mournblood

[KendraP]

People really just need to stop replying to him...the forums would be better.

 

I'm not quite certain if he's trolling or actually convinced the devs walk on water.

[Lhancelot]

Oh, we get it, Olag. You're just smarter than everyone else here. We are the

. Someday you'll succeed at ruling SWTOR.

 

Pinky and the Brain will always have a special place in my heart, just like Ren and Stimpy too.

[Ghost_Spectre]

Spoken like someone who is not part of a minority group. NIM players, multi-faceted players, and to some extent crafters have ALWAYS had an advantage of potentially getting gear faster than others. Whether they chose to or not is up to each individual. They took away the incentive to do NIM content by introducing CXP crates, so i view this as giving these players a short-term advantage again, without breaking the whole system. When only NIM players could flaunt BIS gear, it was a broken and underutilized system because it was extremely limiting AND went on for YEARS. This update is not going to last for more than a few months (i give it a year max before a new, universal gear accumulating system arrives that will be much more friendly to everyone). And remember, nothing in this game is being changed to require the new gear, an oft forgotten fact.

 

 

You just described a classic MMO, my friend. Grind, gear, update, grind again, gear again, update. I think you may have unrealistic expectations.

 

Thus one reveals their limited knowledge of what constitutes the segmented population of a game, MMO or not. In truth, no matter what I say, how I say it, or bring undeniable empirical proof to support what I say, you will deflect, deny, and denounce everything I do say. It does not matter that I worked for a well-known gaming company that made big giant stompy 'mecha filled with diverse players. It does not matter that my experience in interacting with various segments of that game's population revealed how each one was unique in of itself. But, in your eyes, none of that matters because what you say is as if it came down from on high and thus anyone that disagrees with you and your agenda and narrative is completely wrong and less than intelligent as you indicated by "you do not grasp or understand." It must really be lonely at the top with your .001%.

[olagatonjedi]

Thus one reveals their limited knowledge of what constitutes the segmented population of a game, MMO or not. In truth, no matter what I say, how I say it, or bring undeniable empirical proof to support what I say, you will deflect, deny, and denounce everything I do say.

Truth be told, a very small percentage of posts on these foruns have any data, proof, or support to their claims, let alone it being undeniable. I am anxiously awaiting someone to provide a substantiated argument that BW is making poor decisions or dont know what they are doing. I guess i will continue waiting, too.

 

It does not matter that I worked for a well-known gaming company that made big giant stompy 'mecha filled with diverse players. It does not matter that my experience in interacting with various segments of that game's population revealed how each one was unique in of itself. But, in your eyes, none of that matters because what you say is as if it came down from on high and thus anyone that disagrees with you and your agenda and narrative is completely wrong and less than intelligent as you indicated by "you do not grasp or understand." It must really be lonely at the top with your .001%.

If what you say is true about your gaming and professional background, your posts dont reflect it. That makes me question the validity of your claims, or your understanding of the industry and the various segments included. But hey, its just my takeaway. People can work at McDonalds and still never know what goes into its production.

[olagatonjedi]

Oh, we get it, Olag. You're just smarter than everyone else here. We are the

. Someday you'll succeed at ruling SWTOR.

Ive never said im smarter. Perhaps i just understand how to look at things differently to understand different perspectives and draw a constructive conclusion instead of a hot take.

 

Again, though, your post is a perfect example of not understanding something/someone, and just looking at it as black or white instead of all the different shades of grey in between.

[KendraP]

Hmm strange there's no way any of us could be made aware of some of the reasoning behind their decisions. If only there was someone in charge of interfacing with the community, you know like a community manager! Oh wait... Edited November 2, 2018 by KendraP

[krosswong]

Hmm strange there's no way any of us could be made aware of some of the reasoning behind their decisions. If only there was someone in charge of interfacing with the community, you know like a community manager! Oh wait...

 

Bear in mind, the incompetence doesn't stop at musco...

[KendraP]

Oh, we get it, Olag. You're just smarter than everyone else here. We are the

. Someday you'll succeed at ruling SWTOR.

 

"Ruling" or "ruining"?