252/258 Gearing System not viable for Casual/PvP players

[Totemdancer]

I just posted on this in the PTS thread. I honestly am at a loss for any supporting logic -- really trying to restrain myself from thinking this is intentional attempt to sabotage the game (this of course makes no logical sense, but when totally illogical decisions are made continuously, it's hard to think otherwise).

 

To be clear, the gear being introduced is intentionally--by devs own admission--meant for end-game PvE. As far as that goes, the process seems not too bad, and may even be re-invigorating for hardcore PvErs, while totally avoided for the more casual PvE players.

 

But this gear, which has nothing to do with PvP will now come in and create an even bigger gear gap in PvP. The disadvantages CANNOT be avoided for the "casual" PvPer and there will be no credible way for the casual PvPer to earn this gear through PvP. Just slaughter after slaughter after slaughter in a long, needless slog (since, again, the gear isn't meant for, or meaningfully earned by, PvP).

 

The easy (and obvious) solution here would have been to bolster PvP to BiS (258) for this round. This checks all the boxes: 1) hardcore PvErs have new gear path, 2) casual PvErs can stay away, 3) hardcore PvPers can continue with ranked, etc. without worrying about gear not meant to be acquired through PvP, and 4) casual PvPers can try to keep up without worrying about being undergeared. But alas, the opposite was done (for now at least) and the decision was made to "bolster" not even to 252, but to the intentionally-obsolete 248 tier???

 

I just can't...

 

Couldn’t have said it better,

The posts on reddit about this change are no where near as polite as your post. There is a lot of outrage and upvoting.

[Totemdancer]

This is what i expected actually. They obviously count 252 to be like 246, so they're not going to just give it to you.

 

Not saying i think its right. I think adding gear at this stage in the game is pointless at best, is potentially self destructive at worst, and idiotic any way around it. Couple that with the inevitable BW lack of bug identification in spite of pts and throw in a few ninja nerfs/changes we aren't important enough to know about and you have the BW recipe for "success".

 

It’s just another nail in the pvp coffin and will have a flow on affect to the whole game.

You have to seriously start questioning Biowares logic towards the health and continuance of this game. One bad decision or indecision after another. Poor communication or lack of communication.

If this was any other business it would be bankrupt. It’s illogical to think they would be purposefully sabotaging the game to fail, but that’s exactly what its looked like since 5.0. This just the looks like latest attempt to shut the game quicker.

The post game commentary from ex swtor staff is going to be a real eye opener. I can’t imagine they all think so illogical. Some of them must see what’s happening and just aren’t able to get the powers that be to listen.

[mrphstar]

We've been over this ad nauseaum. MMO = many players on line at one time. NOT mandatory grouping. There isn't a single heroic in this game that isn't soloable right now.

 

Making things that *can* be grouped is great; forcing it is not. And sure, they can try again to force grouping, and it will end up like all their other attempts at it.

 

Macrobinoculars/Seeker Droid: People either abandon the quests at the group part or don't play it at all

Aurora Cannon: Had to be tuned to solo players because people weren't playing it.

Iokath Op: Sits in many players' mission logs because they cannot get rid of it, never to be played.

Oricon Ops: Abandoned by many if not most players.

 

nobody forces anyone to do the new heroics either. feel free to abandon them as well.

 

however, if you wanna play endgame group content and wanna have the gear for it, you gotta play the heroics. but people playing endgame content wont have any trouble with grouping up for the heroics anyway. people who do, dont need them anyway.

 

whats the point of this new outrage again?

 

 

It’s just another nail in the pvp coffin and will have a flow on affect to the whole game.

You have to seriously start questioning Biowares logic towards the health and continuance of this game. One bad decision or indecision after another. Poor communication or lack of communication.

If this was any other business it would be bankrupt. It’s illogical to think they would be purposefully sabotaging the game to fail, but that’s exactly what its looked like since 5.0. This just the looks like latest attempt to shut the game quicker.

The post game commentary from ex swtor staff is going to be a real eye opener. I can’t imagine they all think so illogical. Some of them must see what’s happening and just aren’t able to get the powers that be to listen.

 

every new patch, every new gear stage same thing, people crying, threatening to quit. 10% of them actualy do, rest is still here, waiting for the next patch to rant about. yet, this game is on for 6 years, counting.

Edited October 30, 2018 by mrphstar

[Totemdancer]

 

every new patch, every new gear stage same thing, people crying, threatening to quit. 10% of them actualy do, rest is still here, waiting for the next patch to rant about. yet, this game is on for 6 years, counting.

 

And that is why we only have 2 US servers and people already asking for mergers.

Every time Bioware make a massive mistake, they lose more than the normal amount.

This is another massive mistake and will cause more to people leave.

We can’t afford people to leave or there won’t be anyone to pay the bills.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Totemdancer

[IoNonSoEVero]

nobody forces anyone to do the new heroics either. feel free to abandon them as well.

 

however, if you wanna play endgame group content and wanna have the gear for it, you gotta play the heroics. but people playing endgame content wont have any trouble with grouping up for the heroics anyway. people who do, dont need them anyway.

 

whats the point of this new outrage again?

 

Actually it's far more likely that most players will walk away, the same way they did with every other attempt at forced grouping.

 

Making a large chunk of new content unplayable for solo players isn't a brilliant idea, but Bioware seems to be a bit short on those lately.

[ultimarb]

Actually it's far more likely that most players will walk away, the same way they did with every other attempt at forced grouping.

 

Making a large chunk of new content unplayable for solo players isn't a brilliant idea, but Bioware seems to be a bit short on those lately.

 

As this is an mmo there is accually a need of group content. and if it is available for solo too, it is coming alongside with a reduce of difficulty for a group, which is a major aspect that a good amount of group players are bored.

So please dont be so selfish and ask for every mission or activity to be completed solo. just accept one time that there are quests and activities that cant be done on your own. there are still a good amount of quest which can be done solo.

[IoNonSoEVero]

As this is an mmo there is accually a need of group content. and if it is available for solo too, it is coming alongside with a reduce of difficulty for a group, which is a major aspect that a good amount of group players are bored.

So please dont be so selfish and ask for every mission or activity to be completed solo. just accept one time that there are quests and activities that cant be done on your own. there are still a good amount of quest which can be done solo.

 

It's not selfish to ask for heroics, which have been soloable for quite some time, to continue be that way. Without those, there's really nothing left for solo players in the new content except one run-through of a story that is shaping up to be subpar. People won't stick around for that.

 

I'll also point out AGAIN that at least one of the PTS heroics is so overtuned that **groups** can't do them right now.

[Totemdancer]

It's not selfish to ask for heroics, which have been soloable for quite some time, to continue be that way. Without those, there's really nothing left for solo players in the new content except one run-through of a story that is shaping up to be subpar. People won't stick around for that.

 

I'll also point out AGAIN that at least one of the PTS heroics is so overtuned that **groups** can't do them right now.

 

I dont see why they couldn’t make a story mode for all the group stuff so that solo people can do it.

It would be no different to how you have SM for Tyron and Koriban incursions. Just give them and massively OP healing droid and dial back some mechanics and damage and boss health.

The rewards obviously shouldn’t be great for doing it that way and should be about the same for doing any chapters.

 

The only arguments I can see for not doing it, would be the time it takes Bioware to make all those adjustments, which takes away time for doing other things. Or another might be people not bothering to group to do the content and less people end up playing in groups.

[IoNonSoEVero]

I dont see why they couldn’t make a story mode for all the group stuff so that solo people can do it.

It would be no different to how you have SM for Tyron and Koriban incursions. Just give them and massively OP healing droid and dial back some mechanics and damage and boss health.

The rewards obviously shouldn’t be great for doing it that way and should be about the same for doing any chapters.

 

The only arguments I can see for not doing it, would be the time it takes Bioware to make all those adjustments, which takes away time for doing other things. Or another might be people not bothering to group to do the content and less people end up playing in groups.

 

ITA, but I don't even know if that would be necessary for heroics. If they were tuned for level 70 and 230ish, the way KOTFE is, and the mobs were timed correctly (the problem for one of them), they could be soloable with a companion like any other heroic.

 

For me, the concern is also how they might be tuning the new content overall. Up until now I'd been thinking the gear would be an issue for people who wanted to play PvP or GftM,. Since I don't do that content, I don't need to worry about the 252/258 gear. But if they're tuning heroics to that, or to 242/8, it becomes an issue for story/solo players too.

[Sareeph]

It's not selfish to ask for heroics, which have been soloable for quite some time, to continue be that way. Without those, there's really nothing left for solo players in the new content except one run-through of a story that is shaping up to be subpar. People won't stick around for that.

 

I'll also point out AGAIN that at least one of the PTS heroics is so overtuned that **groups** can't do them right now.

 

Except that never before have the Heroics been part of BiS gearing. It has been reported that now you will be able to get shards for Masterwork armor from doing those Heroics.

[phalczen]

I am disappointed in the current plans for increasing Bolster to 248. I would like to know exactly what the intended philosophy design is for 252 gear, 258 gear, and what the pathways are intended to be.

• We know there is a crafting pathway for 258, but not 252. It is resource-intensive, and requires materials from many content areas including but not limited to MM GOTM
  
• We know there is a pathway to 258 but not 252 involving masterwork shards, and this pathway also includes unassembled components, which appears to be the intended pathway for exclusive pvp'ers or pve'ers unable to complete MM GOTM
  
• We know that 252 gear can come from Tier 4 crates, along with the CMTs and MWS needed for the above pathways
  
• This appears to be improved from the initial teasers of the roadmap a few months ago
  
• There is an effective throttling mechanism on acquiring 258 gear. Crafting materials will be scarce, expensive, and spent on self and raid team members before being sold on the GTN at incredible prices. There is also a "diminishing returns" effect on conversion of UC to MWS. And, as of the current PTS, MH/OH are not available. So, there are mechanisms in place designed to slow down this gear acquisition.
  

Maybe those two throttling mechanisms will be sufficient to make 258 geared players in pvp extremely rare so as not to be a problem. That "maybe" by itself though is not justification to make Bolster so low, in my view. So what is the Developer intent? Are MWS and 252 pieces intended to be so fruitful as to obviate the need for Bolster to be any higher than 248? Are UC drops going to be increased such that PvPers or wide-variety content players will have ready access to the gear with sufficient grinding?

 

Are 252 and 258 gear meant to be achievable by everyone with sufficient but extensive effort, or are they meant to be only feasibly gained by dedicated MM GOTM players, who will be unlikely to enter PvP? Because as it appears now, it is neither faster/easier for MM GOTM to gain this gear by any of the pathways I describe above, nor is it totally fair for pvp'ers who may encounter this gear, even if rarely. What is the true design intent/philosophy?

[Sareeph]

Are 252 and 258 gear meant to be achievable by everyone with sufficient but extensive effort, or are they meant to be only feasibly gained by dedicated MM GOTM players, who will be unlikely to enter PvP? Because as it appears now, it is neither faster/easier for MM GOTM to gain this gear by any of the pathways I describe above, nor is it totally fair for pvp'ers who may encounter this gear, even if rarely. What is the true design intent/philosophy?

 

As stated in the Livestreams, the gear is for doing (Like it used to be) MM(NiM) content. Fortunately it will be available at a slower pace for those that choose to not participate in that content (unlike before).

[mrphstar]

I dont see why they couldn’t make a story mode for all the group stuff so that solo people can do it.

It would be no different to how you have SM for Tyron and Koriban incursions. Just give them and massively OP healing droid and dial back some mechanics and damage and boss health.

The rewards obviously shouldn’t be great for doing it that way and should be about the same for doing any chapters.

 

The only arguments I can see for not doing it, would be the time it takes Bioware to make all those adjustments, which takes away time for doing other things. Or another might be people not bothering to group to do the content and less people end up playing in groups.

 

thats the same logic as asking for a solo-OP mode.

lets just give all players 7 god-droids to run OPs by themselfs, and while we are at it, remove all mechanics, why bother with them.

 

a f*** it, remove the bosses as well. since you already managed to enter the area: here's your loot crate with full BiS gear!

 

its literaly discriminating against solo players that they have to slowly grind CXP instead of running OPs to get the 236/242 shells.

 

is this the matrix? am i missing something? whats up with some peoples attitude nowadays to demand everything for free instead of actualy playing the game and taking the challenges??!

 

if you dont wanna play the game anymore, just stop it. move on, try to find a better game that fits your expectations, thats fine.

 

but no, you stay here, keep playing, cry for changes everytime a patch is released, saying thats it now, you would leave, and than go on and still play to repeat the process all along. allthough you spend more time complaining about how bad every dicision of BW was, than actualy playing the game, ruining the game for other people.

 

someone mentioned addiction.....now THATS what I call addiction.

[KendraP]

As stated in the Livestreams, the gear is for doing (Like it used to be) MM(NiM) content. Fortunately it will be available at a slower pace for those that choose to not participate in that content (unlike before).

 

And when it "used to be" this way, they had completely seperate pvp gear, with its own (much faster) grind from 204 to 208 (granted this wasnt really much of a grind).

 

Thus PvE granted you no benefit in PvP, and thus the outcry from PvPers.

 

I'm not even saying bring back PvP gear (though honestly it would seem to be the "best" option in terms of customization, optimization, and bolster explotation prevention; it is also another grind that has to be done and then requires you to haul 2 sets of gear per toon - ups and downs).

 

I'm fine if they want the best gear to he dropped in NiM though I'd prefer it to be all NiM (but thats purely hypothetical as I don't have 8 people with the time to commit to NiM prog). We just (at this point philosophically) do not like the concept of PvEers jumping into PvP with an innate advantage (however small and insignificant it may seem).

 

thats the same logic as asking for a solo-OP mode.

lets just give all players 7 god-droids to run OPs by themselfs, and while we are at it, remove all mechanics, why bother with them.

I mean there's a story/solo mode for what is in HM one of the most difficult bosses in the game - revan. Not that I particularly sympathize with people asking for solo mode of other ops, but i assume this is what they're pointing to precedent wise.

 

a f*** it, remove the bosses as well. since you already managed to enter the area: here's your loot crate with full BiS gear!

Obvious exaggeration I'm not going to waste time countering.

 

its literaly discriminating against solo players that they have to slowly grind CXP instead of running OPs to get the 236/242 shells.

When I was a solo player I couldnt give less of a crap what gear I had. I was one of the fools who took on the emperor with a T7 I hadn't touched gear wise since I got kira on coruscant. Gear was irrelevant outside of that extreme example (and I still managed to beat the emperor before i figured out the puzzle to get the gear for T7).

 

For pvpers gear is not irrelevant. And now that gear is shared, the grind is shared. Its the same basic philosophical argument I laid out above.

 

is this the matrix? am i missing something? whats up with some peoples attitude nowadays to demand everything for free instead of actualy playing the game and taking the challenges??!

 

See my above argument on NiM and gearing. There are plenty of people who PvP and are skill wise probably capable of NiM but cant or dont due to time, personnel, or personal reasons.

 

When gear was seperate, it didnt matter. PvE and PvP gearing are now linked, however; PvPers dont want to PvE to gear any more than PvEers want to PvP.

if you dont wanna play the game anymore, just stop it. move on, try to find a better game that fits your expectations, thats fine.

 

but no, you stay here, keep playing, cry for changes everytime a patch is released, saying thats it now, you would leave, and than go on and still play to repeat the process all along. allthough you spend more time complaining about how bad every dicision of BW was, than actualy playing the game, ruining the game for other people.

 

someone mentioned addiction.....now THATS what I call addiction.

 

I should think loyalty counts for something. I've been a paying subscriber in this gsme (with the exception of a couple days lapse between game time cards. Shouldn't my loyalty count for something? They have your unfortunate attitude of "well they're here spending money, thus they will continue to do so indefinitely."

 

This gear thing, provided its a pathetic an increase as I think, will not run me off by itself. Combine it with what I see potentially incoming with the guild v guild pvp and the potential for them to wreck conquest more, however, and it just might be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Edited October 30, 2018 by KendraP

[TUXs]

I just posted on this in the PTS thread. I honestly am at a loss for any supporting logic -- really trying to restrain myself from thinking this is intentional attempt to sabotage the game (this of course makes no logical sense, but when totally illogical decisions are made continuously, it's hard to think otherwise).

 

To be clear, the gear being introduced is intentionally--by devs own admission--meant for end-game PvE. As far as that goes, the process seems not too bad, and may even be re-invigorating for hardcore PvErs, while totally avoided for the more casual PvE players.

 

But this gear, which has nothing to do with PvP will now come in and create an even bigger gear gap in PvP. The disadvantages CANNOT be avoided for the "casual" PvPer and there will be no credible way for the casual PvPer to earn this gear through PvP. Just slaughter after slaughter after slaughter in a long, needless slog (since, again, the gear isn't meant for, or meaningfully earned by, PvP).

 

The easy (and obvious) solution here would have been to bolster PvP to BiS (258) for this round. This checks all the boxes: 1) hardcore PvErs have new gear path, 2) casual PvErs can stay away, 3) hardcore PvPers can continue with ranked, etc. without worrying about gear not meant to be acquired through PvP, and 4) casual PvPers can try to keep up without worrying about being undergeared. But alas, the opposite was done (for now at least) and the decision was made to "bolster" not even to 252, but to the intentionally-obsolete 248 tier???

 

I just can't...

I agree with everything you've said...it's shocking...

[Andryah]

Are 252 and 258 gear meant to be achievable by everyone with sufficient but extensive effort, or are they meant to be only feasibly gained by dedicated MM GOTM players, who will be unlikely to enter PvP? Because as it appears now, it is neither faster/easier for MM GOTM to gain this gear by any of the pathways I describe above, nor is it totally fair for pvp'ers who may encounter this gear, even if rarely. What is the true design intent/philosophy?

 

While I share your disappointment about bolster = 248 with 5.10 (mainly because it is simply a rinse and repeat approach by the studio when new gear releases, and I wish they would be a bit more creative in their approach)....

 

..... in most MMOs, including this one, NO... everyone is not meant to have BiS gear in an MMO. But everyone has generally the same access to it if they choose to... unless they self-choose to refuse to do the content needed to get said gear. A player will generally chase gear that is actually needed for what they play. Of course if it is almost free in terms of time and resources... every player will want it and will chase it.. even if they don't actually need it for actual game play. A big mistake by the studio back in 4.0 was making it pretty easy to get BiS gear for a long time.. and now when they try to claw back on BiS to make it more rarefied in game (the norm for MMOs by the way)... they have a revolt on their hands over it. This is precisely why a studio needs to be mindful, consistent, and persistent in how they provide the best gear in game.

 

As for the every popular fairness/unfairness meme about anything in an MMO.. generally speaking... MMOs are over-run with player perceived "unfairness" so I think you need a more objective point of complaint. It appears that the studio is indeed doing something different then they teased out earlier about the gear being crafted only gear. And to that end.. they appear to be providing all the usual pathways they have in the past (which frankly is something most MMOs simply do not do). Is every path exactly equal and fair to another path? Depends.... depends on a lot of things other then simply the pathway itself. Different players with different resources (be it time, credits, materials, or tokens) for example.. gives one player an advantage over another player. Life inside an MMO is never completely fair... given the wide range of players and how they play the game.

 

That said... the studio choose a while back to homogenize gear between PvP and PvE through the removal of Expertise. While I think that was a good direction to go in for SWTOR... they failed to consider the very real component of PvP ---> gear wars.. where some players can and will aggressively chase new gear to give them some baked-in numerical advantage in an PvP engagement. They need to either resolve this consistent with homogenized gear, or go back to unique PvP gear.. which honestly.. I think would get almost as much pushback as we have today... because it is clear that PvPers do not want to grind for gear (even when the gear like what is coming in 5.10 can in fact be earned through PvP).

 

I personally believe the simplest solution in a homogenized gear environment as we have today is to make PvP bolstered to current BiS and be done with it. That is easy for them to do and moves PvP essentially to skill vs skill. But you know what.. when I discuss this idea in the forum.. there are always a handful of PvP-only players that like to gank me and demean my opinions through pejoratives. So I am not sure there is any actual solution that will please everyone. Happily.... ~90% of players in game today will never actually need this gear in the current state of the game. Some will want it.. even if they don't actually need it of course and that discussion is infinitely circular in trying to reason with them on this.. so not much point really.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

I should think loyalty counts for something. I've been a paying subscriber in this gsme (with the exception of a couple days lapse between game time cards. Shouldn't my loyalty count for something? They have your unfortunate attitude of "well they're here spending money, thus they will continue to do so indefinitely."

 

So... to extend your claim here beyond just you (MMOs are not made for individuals... but for broad audiences) ... you feel that as a long time subscriber you deserve easier access to BiS then say.... the newer player who has only been around for a year or so and is working to progress and mature a level capped character?

 

Here.. let me put your subscription history in context: you pay for a service to play that service. That is ALL a subscription entitles you to. There are no brownie points for being a long term subscriber in this MMO and in other MMOs where there are veteran award programs I have never seen them reward veterans with anything other then cosmetic or fun items, and maybe some booster potions... certainly not actual high end gear. Most such veteran reward programs are basically cosmetic bragging rights items... not unlike the often tossed around "Founder" title from old timers here at SWTOR.

 

Let's Segway a moment on the "I deserve" theme you have presented.... and look at the level 70 token you can buy on the CM. It grants a set of full 230 gear for a fresh level 70. Gear sufficient to play almost all of the game with ease.... but certainly nowhere near BiS... and that is a good thing. And note.. being a veteran of the game for years, or being brand new to the game.. the token works exactly the same.

 

I get the point you are trying to make.. but you are going about it completely wrong with this opinion you presented here.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Andryah

[phalczen]

As stated in the Livestreams, the gear is for doing (Like it used to be) MM(NiM) content. Fortunately it will be available at a slower pace for those that choose to not participate in that content (unlike before).

 

But that's not completely true, is it?

Do we know if the MM GOTM bosses actually drop unassembled Masterwork 258 tokens? There is no vendor which sells 258 gear for unassembled masterwork tokens.

 

If Unassembled Masterwork item rating 258 Tokens do not exist, then, based on all available information, I have to conclude that the ease, or speed, or convenience, or benefit, to gearing via MM GOTM is by the drop rate of the "Forgotten Something" crafting materials that are used to craft the gear.

 

The problem I have with this approach is that the CMT requirements are off the charts crazy, so as to make crafting NOT an easy, fast, convenient, or beneficial path to 258 gear for anyone, let alone MM GOTM raiders. We also don't know how many forgotten somethings drop per boss/per raid size, if they are guaranteed per boss, or how they will be distributed across five bosses for 12 types of gear.

 

So, that leads the discussion to the next pathway, Masterwork Shards. These can, apparently, come from:

• Tier 4 crates, at some low % chance
  
• conversion of Unassembled components, at a rising cost until a weekly reset
  
• pve content related to the Ossus Daily area
  

Do MWS come from MM GOTM bosses? If so, then I can see the design goal being fulfilled. If not, then it seems to me that the Devs have added this pathway for another reason. I want to know why, so that I can give the best feedback possible. It doesn't make crafting any easier. It does, however, provide a pathway for pvp'ers, or really anyone who lacks the ability to participate in MM GOTM.

 

So, I'm ok with a pathway for non MM GOTM raiders being much harder. However, as it seems now, there are two important considerations:

1. With the crafting requirements being crazy, the MWS pathway actually seems to be the faster/easier/more convenient route for everyone, including MMGOTM raiders
   
2. If 258 gear is not scarce, the impact on pvp balance can become significant
   

 

So, I asked about the design philosophy because the plan to raise Bolster to only 248 with 236 augments (I presume overkill 236 augments) doesn't address, in my view, the concerns about pvp balance adequately. And, with the fastest pathway being anything but MM GOTM, it doesn't seem like the MM raiders get a benefit either. I mean, there will undoubtedly be other cosmetic drops, titles, and achievements for MM GOTM that we haven't seen yet, but the Devs have said several times in several media that they intend for MM GOTM and crafting to be the fastest pathway to 258. And regardless of what the Devs have openly said, the PvP'ers have some reasonable concerns with Bolster only being 248 with 236 augs.

[Khevar]

is this the matrix? am i missing something? whats up with some peoples attitude nowadays to demand everything for free instead of actualy playing the game and taking the challenges??!

Look, I get where you're coming from, and if we were talking about the pre 5.0 days of this game, I would probably agree with you.

 

Mainly because, prior to 5.0, PvE gear was only useful in PvE situations. It was terrible for PvP. And so, having BiS PvE gear was something could safely be gated behind extremely difficult content, or an extremely lengthy grind for those who didn't want to do extremely difficult content.

 

Now, when BW removed expertise, it allowed people to play both types of content without having to have separate gear sets. This is generally a good thing. But it does mean that making PvE gear difficult to obtain simultaneously means making PvP gear difficult to obtain.

 

And in my opinion, beating someone because your gear is better isn't as fun as beating someone because you're more skilled.

 

Let me re-quote your point above:

whats up with some peoples attitude nowadays to demand everything for free instead of actualy playing the game and taking the challenges??!

For one that primarily PvPs, fighting in warzones, et. al IS "actually playing the game". And fighting other players IS "taking the challenges"

 

Do you remember Recruit gear, given free to the player when they hit 50? Have you ever been in a warzone against players wearing recruit? I have. They melted like butter. It was as through one had turned the difficulty slider down to "EZ mode"

 

Now, I'm not going to lie, at first I did actually enjoy the extreme domination of an under geared player. But only up to a point. Generally speaking, it wasn't as fun as winning against a player that more evenly matched.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Khevar

[TUXs]

~90% of players in game today will never actually need this gear in the current state of the game. Some will want it.. even if they don't actually need it of course and that discussion is infinitely circular in trying to reason with them on this.. so not much point really.

Who are these people you think "need" the gear? Who is your 10%? The BEST players in the game? You think they need it? You think it's the players capable of actually doing NiM raids that "need" this gear? They need it the LEAST imo. NiM raiders don't die to lack of stats...they die to mechanics.

 

The people who "need" this gear most will never even have a shot at it. The people who "need" it most are struggling with HM content, not NiM content. This gear is being made available to the group of people who least need it.

[Andryah]

So, I asked about the design philosophy because the plan to raise Bolster to only 248 with 236 augments (I presume overkill 236 augments) doesn't address, in my view, the concerns about pvp balance adequately.

 

I agree that this is actually the one tangible gripe about the current gear plan (which we all have to keep in mind is not final yet)....

 

.... but in fairness, in earlier discussions just between PvPers on this new gear it was pointed out that a large majority of PvPers are not yet even in 248s... even though they have been available for over a year. That leads me to believe that the "gear war" component of the discussion about this new tier or gear is conflated... probably deliberately in order to try to plead for something along the lines of full 258s for X hours of PvP work (where some players feel X should not exceed something like 10-20 hours of game play.. ie a calendar week of game play)

 

Having chosen to homogenize gear between PvP and PvE a long time ago now.. I do believe the studio needs to come to grips with the negative impact to the PvP audience that basically just wants to do player on player gaming.. and just set bolster = current BiS for instanced PvP moving forward.

 

And, with the fastest pathway being anything but MM GOTM, it doesn't seem like the MM raiders get a benefit either. I mean, there will undoubtedly be other cosmetic drops, titles, and achievements for MM GOTM that we haven't seen yet, but the Devs have said several times in several media that they intend for MM GOTM and crafting to be the fastest pathway to 258. And regardless of what the Devs have openly said, the PvP'ers have some reasonable concerns with Bolster only being 248 with 236 augs.

 

That's not what they are saying today. So.. either they changed their mind (driven by vomit all over the forum by the non-crafting crowd), or they are simply not done yet tuning everything on PTS.

 

What I find odd is that players seem to want to move the narrative about the studio in two directions at their whim:

 

1) "you can't trust the studio for anything they say", and factor that into a healthy skepticism until you see something in the live game patch.

 

2) "But.. but. the studio said XYZ.... so it must be true and we must hold them accountable to what they said."

 

You can't have it both ways. Personally, I take everything about unreleased content that ANY studio says... with large grains of salt.. because @#% can and does change with implementation.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Andryah

[KendraP]

So... to extend your claim here beyond just you (MMOs are not made for individuals... but for broad audiences) ... you feel that as a long time subscriber you deserve easier access to BiS then say.... the newer player who has only been around for a year or so and is working to progress and mature a level capped character?

 

Here.. let me put your subscription history in context: you pay for a service to play that service. That is ALL a subscription entitles you to. There are no brownie points for being a long term subscriber in this MMO and in other MMOs where there are veteran award programs I have never seen them reward veterans with anything other then cosmetic or fun items, and maybe some booster potions... certainly not actual high end gear. Most such veteran reward programs are basically cosmetic bragging rights items... not unlike the often tossed around "Founder" title from old timers here at SWTOR.

 

Let's Segway a moment on the "I deserve" theme you have presented.... and look at the level 70 token you can buy on the CM. It grants a set of full 230 gear for a fresh level 70. Gear sufficient to play almost all of the game with ease.... but certainly nowhere near BiS... and that is a good thing. And note.. being a veteran of the game for years, or being brand new to the game.. the token works exactly the same.

 

I get the point you are trying to make.. but you are going about it completely wrong with this opinion you presented here.

 

Read the point i replied to. The point was entirely about attitude. His is like it or don't; black or white. that pargraph had nothing to do with BiS

 

I'm saying there are shades of gray - there are many things I enjoy and that's why I keep paying... but they are consistently finding ways of killing everything I find to enjoy. Virtually every change they've made since january has done something to directly nerf my playstyle and the incoming changes do more of the same (and I'm far more worried about the other stuff to come than the BiS gearing).

 

Shouldn't they desire to keep me around rather than just assuming I'm going to be here whatever they do?

[Joonbeams]

.... but in fairness, in earlier discussions just between PvPers on this new gear it was pointed out that a large majority of PvPers are not yet even in 248s... even though they have been available for over a year. That leads me to believe that the "gear war" component of the discussion about this new tier or gear is conflated... probably deliberately in order to try to plead for something along the lines of full 258s for X hours of PvP work (where some players feel X should not exceed something like 10-20 hours of game play.. ie a calendar week of game play)

 

...

 

Just to be clear, the above isn’t an accurate analysis of the gripe, though I concede I’m not qualified to speak for every single player who’s griping (neither of us is). The problem with THIS tier as compared to even the last one is that PvP isn’t a viable means to obtain the gear — its expressly not for PvP (yes this may change) and PvP will be a totally inefficient way to obtain it. Had PvP been made a viable option for attaining this gear, I assure you that at least I (and I venture to say many others) would not be complaining about it.

 

I have never had full 248s. I have never had BiS gear other than during the 4.x comms system. However because my playstyle (90% PvP) was always s viable means to getting BiS gear in PVP (and, at various points in time, something to strive for), I never demanded complete BiS bolster. This case is totally different.

 

Lastly, that said, i do want to point out that I and NUMEROUS others have complained repeatedly about the problem with the current system as a means for gearing in PvP. It has already created a disparity for more casual players and many much stronger players have pointed this out, and even left as a result. So this creates a FURTHER gap and that’s a legit gripe...

[phalczen]

.... but in fairness, in earlier discussions just between PvPers on this new gear it was pointed out that a large majority of PvPers are not yet even in 248s... even though they have been available for over a year. That leads me to believe that the "gear war" component of the discussion about this new tier or gear is conflated... probably deliberately in order to try to plead for something along the lines of full 258s for X hours of PvP work (where some players feel X should not exceed something like 10-20 hours of game play.. ie a calendar week of game play)

 

I don't recall hearing this from the Devs, or reading it, but I could not stay for the full livestream. There are obviously extremes... people who mostly pvp, like Chuck from the BadFeeling Podcast, isn't even at CR 300 on his main sniper, whereas Verain, a GSF'er who has a ground mara, does so much GSF and so little ground stuff and has been at tier 4 for so long with so many UCs that he has had a full set of 248 for over a year. Yes there are people who want/expect full 258s for 10-20 hours of PvP, but I am not one of them, I think that number of people is a minority, and I don't have any reasonable expectation that the studio would cater to those anyway. I am pleasantly surprised the pathway outside of MM GOTM even exists, but I question why that pathway, on face value, is more palatable than actually doing the op, and I question why, in light of unified gear sets, Bolster is so low. I fully admit that the concern could be overstated: I don't think there is a profound danger of hordes of MM GOTM raiders invading unranked warzones or even group ranked and mopping the floor because of their 10 point gear gap. But, I don't think one can conclude that because people are very into end game top tier raiding that they are, by definition, unskilled at pvp. These players know the ins and outs of their abilities very well, and objectives in the current crop of warzones aren't so complicated that they couldn't figure it out. I have a hard time believing Beastfury doesn't do reasonably well in warzones when he chooses to go into them, or TcThief. Hottie seems to do just fine when she fills in on VM operations, despite being mostly a pvp'er. So, eventually, this gear will creep into pvp and it will be in the hands of skilled people, not noobs who got a 258 set handed to them for free. Whether that time point will be the week before 6.0, when it won't matter anymore, or in a month from now, when it could affect pvp balance for months, no one knows.

 

I think its somewhat incorrect to say that people who do MM GOTM don't need the 258 gear … because I think gear improvement iteratively, across the progression of the five bosses, is part of the determinant of success. Bosses who are tuned such that they can be farmed in 248 gear aren't MM-enough, but if Tyth can't be done in 248s then that could be a problem. So its not correct to say that MM GOTM raiders don't need 258 gear at all, but it is probably correct that they don't need 258 gear for the first few bosses. People's rotations aren't changing, Adrenals aren't changing, abilities aren't changing, etc. because we're not at a new level cap. So, skill level isn't what's being tested, at least not directly, as much as reducing errors. Tux and Kendra are right to say errors cost encounters, but its also true that a few points of stat difference could mean the difference between wiping or downing the boss, especially since Accuracy and Alacrity are now more or less fixed and Critical Rating (and therefore, RNG) contributes so much to the overall effectiveness of the player. I think this difference persists from teams struggling with Vet mode to teams working on MM.

[Jdast]

I share some of Phalczen's concerns about the goal of the system. Personally, I was an advocate of Bolster being 252.

 

If it does stay at 248 with Augments at 236 I think a reasonable compromise then would be to loosen the UC requirement a bit and increase the drop rate.

 

As others have pointed out, though, I don't see the complaint of PvPers for several inter-related reasons:

 

1) There is not a flood of BiS gear now in Warzones and there will be even less in 5.10 given the eye popping crafting requirements. I have yet to hear one counter-argument from the so-called and self-appointed Ambassadors of the PvP community who presume (incorrectly) to speak for everyone (note: ghost posting on alts on Reddit doesn't count).

 

2) The issue is one of parity. Right now it is reasonable to pretty EQUALLY (note: I did not say easily) get MWS regardless of casual PvE or PvP . In the case you have the event weekly of your preference, it would be higher: Again, for the record -- I said EQUALLY not EASILY.

 

a) for Pve-ers, you can complete the heroic weekly now in under an hour which is one MWS. Throw in UC's at just 1 purchase (per character) at 500, plus crate drops, plus alts and you'll be getting probably 4 to 5 MWS / week.

 

b) for PvP-ers, let's assume you don't do the PvE weekly and just PvP. The UCs are intentionally designed to drop more frequently given this route. Frankly, it will take someone like Way of the Warrior, who only plays one character last I heard, longer to gear up one character because of increasing costs and weekly cap (still unknown). For someone like myself (and many others), who has many alts, it will be much faster and synergistic (I assume I don't have to do the math, but briefly, 4 characters at 500 UCs a week vs. 1 character at 3000 or so -- pretty straightforward).

 

To the extent PvPers (ooh, am I an 'actual PvPer yet, where is my decoder ring! ) care about parity then this should alleviate some, but not all of their concerns.

 

Hence, I think the reasonable compromise is that if Bolster remains as stated, they should loosen the UC requirement / cost / drop rate or some combo. This does not address Tux's legit concern about how the current system does little to help the segment of players struggling in heroic Ops. I think they could loosen the overall MWS req a bit there too, but I'm still thinking on that one.

 

But bottom line: As of the current PTS, the crafting system is basically as horrific as being locked in a container and being forced to listen to the Kashyyk National Opera endlessly.

 

Dasty

 

P.S. Can we please end the trope that the more you PvP the more you are qualified to speak on the subject? Why? Well, the answer of course is William Stanley Jevons and ice cream. In the off chance you are unfamiliar with the work of Mr. Jevons, he is a famous economist from the 1800s who did path breaking work on marginal utility and its mathematical foundations.

 

So, let's use ice cream as an example. Why? Because ice cream is awesome unless you are lactose intolerant.

 

On a hot summer day, the first delicious ice cream cone is going to be awesome. Even the second one is going to be pretty good. But by the time you get to the 10th on the same day, the value you will attach to that 10th ice cream cone will be less.

 

The value added of your 1000th PvP + 1 is much lower than your 5th PvP match +1. Hence, marginal utility curves. This applies particularly to an understanding of the gearing system.

Edited October 30, 2018 by Jdast