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252/258 Gearing System not viable for Casual/PvP players


Mantlers

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How did I know this would happen? Is it because I'm fabulously brilliant? Well, yes, but I digress. <<takes sip from martini -- well, it is a day ending in 'y' after all and it's 3 p..m. on the West Coast>> :rak_04:

 

As soon as it was announced that bolster was going up, these threads would turn into a "bolster must be BiS" fest.

 

Prepare to be disappointed. BW has always had the view that there should still be a gear progression element in PvP. Keith flat out repeated it again last year.

 

They know the arguments on both sides. None of us can stop you from changing this into a full-fledged Bolster should be BIS thread, but can't you at least be happy that Andryah elicited a response that bolster is at least going up? The irony is that Andryah has LLOONNGGGG advocated that bolster should be BiS. I happen to disagree, and side completely with BW on this one -- hence the reason I support bolster going to 252.

 

As it is six levels below BiS now, I think that it is a pretty good guideline to suggest moving forward. Alternatively, we can continue to have the exact same bolster debate that has gone on ad nauseum for decades in MMORPGs (note: Overwatch, Fortnite, various MOBA's are not MMORPGs). But for you to say "it doesn't mean anything" is hyperbolic and simply mathematically incorrect.

 

Give a mouse a cookie...

 

Dasty

 

What? I don't think bolster should be BiS. I wouldn't be mad if it was, but that's why I'm not happy with the new gear grind. Because I don't expect bolster to be BiS. I haven't been advocating for that at all. I was just saying that bolster being increased to, say, 252 (which is way more likely than 258+) isn't going to resolve any of my concerns with the gear because that doesn't help gearing for ranked PvP at all. Which is what I care about.

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As soon as it was announced that bolster was going up, these threads would turn into a "bolster must be BiS" fest.

Don't paint everyone with that brush, you're making a mess on the floor.

 

I, for one, am happy that Musco commented that bolster is going up, and have no expectations that it will be BiS. I would hazard a guess that many other people that have been arguing about the 5.10 gearing feel similarly.

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What? I don't think bolster should be BiS. I wouldn't be mad if it was, but that's why I'm not happy with the new gear grind. Because I don't expect bolster to be BiS. I haven't been advocating for that at all. I was just saying that bolster being increased to, say, 252 (which is way more likely than 258+) isn't going to resolve any of my concerns with the gear because that doesn't help gearing for ranked PvP at all. Which is what I care about.

 

My apologies, I misinterpreted your post given the phrasing you used.

 

Dasty

Edited by Jdast
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Dear Keith + Bioware Team,

 

I implore you to consider implementing an alternative gearing system for the PvP community, to your proposed 252/258 gear. I'm going to keep the reasons why this hurts us (BADLY) in a concise list below:

 

1. Many PvPers don't do PvE. Obtaining the means to gear up through a PvE gearing system is forcing people to participate in an aspect of the game they may not enjoy in order to grind gear.

 

2. You are penalising the Casual player: The Data Crystals you mention are obtainable for "Casual" players by doing the weeklies on multiple characters and then transfer over the mods via legacy - will Casual players really have the time to do weeklies on multiple characters? And at an ever increasing cost of UC? This doesn't sound Casual to me. Believe it or not, some of us have jobs and families and lives outside of the game, playing recreationally in our spare time.

 

3. The Craft option: How about crafters that are PvPers? Are they now supposed to be able to jump into a Gods MM and to obtain mats? This isn't realistic for many (even hardcore PvE'ers struggle with this ops) and nor should you expect a PvP player to need to do PvE in order to get mats for crafting.

 

4. Market creation: This will create a hyper-inflated market for mats, held in the hands of the MM PvE community who will be able to charge whatever they want. At least with T-ranked, anyone can give it a go and still eventually be rewarded without too much complexity.

 

In summary, you've made it astoundingly difficult and not enjoyable for PvPers like myself and many others to obtain high end gear. Some of us are still trying to gear alts in 248....

 

There was nothing wrong with the old 204/208 system for PvP - it was in fact perfect and put everyone on the same level playing field. Take a look at what they're doing in GW2 where they essentially make skill and not gear, the focus for PvP. Thanks for listening.

 

Kind Regards,

 

Loyal + Casual PvP Player that is hanging in here all these years despite many bad decisions by Bioware.

 

Haven't heard you crying about the Ranked PvP only mat. Guess you'll have to get dirty in pve, the same way pve players have had to deal with ranked for the last year.

 

Live with it.

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Haven't heard you crying about the Ranked PvP only mat. Guess you'll have to get dirty in pve, the same way pve players have had to deal with ranked for the last year.

 

Live with it.

 

Or quit when forced to partake in activities on a game you don't enjoy. Personally I find that the best route, but w/e.

 

I guess people will suffer through anything when they lose focus why they originally began doing something no matter how awful it gets. Guess it's an addiction, can't blame them totally.

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This is an intended change, yes. There are other changes surrounding it though you may not have yet experienced. Basically rep for Osuss looks like this:

 

  • Individual tokens reward less than before.
  • You can more consistently get rep tokens from content, ex: the world bosses regularly drop tokens.
  • The weekly cap for Ossus reputation is higher than other reps.

This re-balance of rep is meant to allow players who play a lot to earn more rep than they could before while also removing the situation where a player ends up with tokens in their inventory they can't even use. Definitely let us know your thoughts on this change as you are playing.

 

-eric

 

 

So basically, the grind will be much longer and boring because weeklies etc won’t cap your rep. You will have to go grind twice as much content to get the same amount of rep.

 

Yay, more grind....

Edited by Totemdancer
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The new system is not viable for anybody. The daily restrictions will make it take over a year to gain a full set of gear. A useless waste of time and resources.

 

one year?? so what do you need a new set for, if you play 1 hour a month anyway?

 

Or quit when forced to partake in activities on a game you don't enjoy. Personally I find that the best route, but w/e.

 

I guess people will suffer through anything when they lose focus why they originally began doing something no matter how awful it gets. Guess it's an addiction, can't blame them totally.

 

its not about addiction, its about not being a whiny lil girl about everything.

 

first reaction of PVP players after new bolster was announced? No not "great, thank you", more like: "It better be BiS or I quit".

 

getting tired of this com......

Edited by mrphstar
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6.0 is likely a year away Dasty...

 

I refuse to believe they will let SWTOR go on for THREE YEARS without a major expansion. I just refuse, a team of professionalists wouldn't let that happen, just no. By the end of 2019, even the greatest expansion ever won't save the game ('cause it will already be close to death). They have to know it.

 

...

 

R.. right? :rak_frown:

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It is possible that they don’t want to put the main hands and offhands on the vendors yet because they don’t want people testing the balance changes in all difficulties of the op with 258 MH/OH which would throw off their data.

 

Didn’t I read a post that said there was a special pts vendor and you are able to get all the best gear to do the actual ops testing in?

 

You can’t really test the difficulties properly if people can’t test in the best gear.

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My personal belief on the MH / OH not being available yet is that you will be able to buy them with MWS but...(isn't there always a but...:rak_03:)

 

It will require higher reputation levels with Ossus. So everyone is clear, I have ZERO actual evidence to support this view but my curiosity was piqued by what Charles meant during the Cantina when he said...

 

"There will be reputation breakpoints."

 

Look, from the perspective of BW, they want Ossus to be an active, thriving hub. They also know that MH / OH will be the most sought after items.

 

Dasty

 

Let’s hope your prediction is correct and the weapons aren’t locked behind play/pay wall.

Edited by Totemdancer
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Or quit when forced to partake in activities on a game you don't enjoy.

 

This is what concerns me the most about the 5.10 gearing system, it will drive people away regardless of how good it is because they hate change.

Which means they need to make it less controversial and easier to obtain for pvpers or we will lose even more people than the few who leave because they hate change.

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I refuse to believe they will let SWTOR go on for THREE YEARS without a major expansion. I just refuse, a team of professionalists wouldn't let that happen, just no. By the end of 2019, even the greatest expansion ever won't save the game ('cause it will already be close to death). They have to know it.

 

...

 

R.. right? :rak_frown:

 

Know, care, have control of??

 

It’s hard to say what’s goes on in that office. There have been so many bad decisions come out of that office, that it makes you wonder if “they do know it” or even get it it half the time.

I’m pretty sure some of them don’t get it. If they did, the game wouldn’t be in the condition it currently is.

Edited by Totemdancer
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one year?? so what do you need a new set for, if you play 1 hour a month anyway?

 

 

 

its not about addiction, its about not being a whiny lil girl about everything.

 

first reaction of PVP players after new bolster was announced? No not "great, thank you", more like: "It better be BiS or I quit".

 

getting tired of this com......

 

lots of broad strokes being applied in your post. When people criticize something, it's not being a "whiny little girl" it's called not agreeing with whatever is being criticized.

 

People have explained in great detail their reasons for not liking the proposed changes incoming, and seeing zero response has been given by BW/EA I personally am done discussing it.

 

I see some people want to place blame on "PVPers" for some of the awful changes BW has implemented such as the RNG crates etc, and the irony of this misplaced blame is that 5.0 patch alone caused more PVPers to drop the game than any update before and after 5.0.

 

You can call PVPers "whiny lil girls" all you want, that's fine but don't expect those same people to thank BW for any of the changes they have made that were good for PVP. The fact is the majority of large game changes have had negative impacts on PVP, not positive.

 

If anything BW should be thanking any of the PVPers left for sticking around as long as they have. In fact not just PVPers but all types of gamers that still play swtor deserve not just a thanks, but a lot more.

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This is what concerns me the most about the 5.10 gearing system, it will drive people away regardless of how good it is because they hate change.

Which means they need to make it less controversial and easier to obtain for pvpers or we will lose even more people than the few who leave because they hate change.

 

Just view the track record, the history of the game. I mean it's just ridiculous. They don't even learn from their own mistakes. It's amazing to me.

 

It's hard to believe they aren't deliberately trying to narrow their playerbase down even more. Every large patch that they implement creates resentment and pushes people off the game.

 

Seriously, it's tragically comical if not purposeful.

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Just view the track record, the history of the game. I mean it's just ridiculous. They don't even learn from their own mistakes. It's amazing to me.

 

It's hard to believe they aren't deliberately trying to narrow their playerbase down even more. Every large patch that they implement creates resentment and pushes people off the game.

 

Seriously, it's tragically comical if not purposeful.

 

Yeah, I’m constantly questioning their collective sanity. It’s like all logic goes out the window when they all sit in a room together.

 

Most of the mistakes they have been making since 5.0 are the same ones that failed in the early years of the game. It’s like they don’t know their own games history and it’s ground hog day.

 

Now we are going back again to pre 2.2 again with more of the same gearing systems that failed then too,

 

How hard is it to look back at the best gearing systems theyve had in the history of the game and reintroducing them.

People might even come back to the game if they did that. Wouldn’t that be a novel idea? Make a gearing system to bring people back and not drive them away.

 

Easiest solution :

Bring back the pvp gearing system we had during 4.x

Bring back the pve raid gearing we had during 4.x ??

Add crafting 254 gear lvl with out bonus stats.

Edited by Totemdancer
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lots of broad strokes being applied in your post. When people criticize something, it's not being a "whiny little girl" it's called not agreeing with whatever is being criticized.

 

People have explained in great detail their reasons for not liking the proposed changes incoming, and seeing zero response has been given by BW/EA I personally am done discussing it.

 

I see some people want to place blame on "PVPers" for some of the awful changes BW has implemented such as the RNG crates etc, and the irony of this misplaced blame is that 5.0 patch alone caused more PVPers to drop the game than any update before and after 5.0.

 

You can call PVPers "whiny lil girls" all you want, that's fine but don't expect those same people to thank BW for any of the changes they have made that were good for PVP. The fact is the majority of large game changes have had negative impacts on PVP, not positive.

 

If anything BW should be thanking any of the PVPers left for sticking around as long as they have. In fact not just PVPers but all types of gamers that still play swtor deserve not just a thanks, but a lot more.

 

funny that you mention it...

its just my personal experience over the years, that it is always the same group of people crying for changes, the changes come, and the find new things to cry about. and most of these crys were not reasonable at all, like this topic i.e. you prove them wrong, they ignore you or assume you dont know what you are talking about, since you dont fulltime pvp and therefor your math has to be wrong etc.

 

and no, its not criticism if you just cry about everything based on personal intentions(faster gearing for pvp i.e.) without providing any reasonable solution.

 

in the meanwhile the changes they cried for not only didnt pleaae them (how could they), but made things worse for everyone, like class changes etc.

 

like, take this summer. pvp players were crying for pvp patches for years, they get a big one, leaving all PVE players without any content for almost a year.

2 months later, they find new things why this game is unplayable for them. yet, they are still here. why even listen to them in first place, if it has exactly zero effect.

Edited by mrphstar
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Didn’t I read a post that said there was a special pts vendor and you are able to get all the best gear to do the actual ops testing in?

 

You can’t really test the difficulties properly if people can’t test in the best gear.

 

No. There is now a vendor that has 252 gear on Odessen, and on the previous version of PTS there was a vendor on Odessen that had 248 gear.

 

If the components to craft 258 gear only drop in MM GOTM, the devs would never be able to balance the encounter for a group that is in a mix of 248 - 258 gear, which is how every other MM op was designed (assuming that players would, as they progressed, be in a mix of gear ratings.)

 

So yeah, that's exactly the way to test the difficulties. Very few teams hit the enrage timer on MM Tyth, if any, without Crystals and in only 248 gear. As they increase their supply of Masterwork Shards through doing dailies when they are not raiding, and Unassembled Components from GSF, PVP, and disintegrating crates they earn, they will acquire some 252 and 258 pieces, which over time will increase the # of teams able to clear Tyth, and then the cycle begins anew. MM Izax on the other hand, when it is re-tuned (it was already tuned for a group with 248 and 240 augments in its VM form) may need an average item rating much closer to 258 but that's to be expected.

 

We don't know exactly what "Forgotten Something" Tyth will drop, which will of course determine which pieces can be crafted first. There are some missing gear slots, Dulfy's info reveals that the same Forgotten somethings will be used in several different types of gear pieces, but even with the re-use that leaves some slots uncovered. For example, no boss in GOTM drops Belts, Boots, or Gloves, and Dulfy's info says Forgotten Bindings will be used in making the Belts/Boots/Gloves. So, its unclear where these Bindings will drop from. The implants and earpiece are also unaccounted for, as are their associated "Forgotten Curio."

 

The point is, MM ops groups will not have 258 gear on the first day because no one will have any Masterwork Shards yet, and before you even say it, yes, I know there will be people with tons of UCs stockpiled but whether that will translate into an entire suit on day 1 is highly doubtful due to the weekly cap on conversion of UCs to MWS.

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Yeah, I’m constantly questioning their collective sanity. It’s like all logic goes out the window when they all sit in a room together.

 

Seems a bit absurd to me to be so negative and down on the studio and the game AND continue to give them your money.

 

Seriously... why not play something that is more suited to your exclusive choice to only PvP (and it is your choice... nobody forces you to deliberately exclude other content)?

 

Easiest solution :

Bring back the pvp gearing system we had during 4.x

Bring back the pve raid gearing we had during 4.x ??

Add crafting 254 gear lvl with out bonus stats.

 

This is not the easiest set of solutions, merely the set that fits your personal narrative and bias. The easiest solution for you "I only play PvP, play competitively only, and refuse to touch any other part of the game" crowd is actually to just remove gear from the PvP equation entirely. But you would be unhappy with this as well I am sure.

 

Here's an even better thought.. maybe the studio should just ban 258 gear from PvP entirely. That solves all your arguments as an exclusive PvPer about different players "having some sort of advantage" over you because they choose to play more of the game then you do. Then you can shift your complaints to having UCs and nothing to spend them on.

 

Personally, I think you have been unhappy with the game for years, will continue to be unhappy with it for as long as you continue to play, and will accept no personal responsibility that your personal choices as to how you play and what you play is in fact a factor in your unhappiness. It's classic deflection going on here... thinking everything a studio does is wrong, is a personal affront to you, and that you bear no responsibility for your own choices to limit what you play.. and then complain that the studio puts things outside of your chosen limitations of reach.

Edited by Andryah
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lots of broad strokes being applied in your post. When people criticize something, it's not being a "whiny little girl" it's called not agreeing with whatever is being criticized.

 

People have explained in great detail their reasons for not liking the proposed changes incoming, and seeing zero response has been given by BW/EA I personally am done discussing it.

 

] /snip all the pejorative drama ]

 

 

Save it. Very few players, even PvPers, are buying your dramatic performance on this topic.

 

You want it so you can quickly and easily gear all your many alts in 258s. You have said so in the discussions about the new gear. You are bent that you will have to actually work for BiS for your alts (which is something that is practically universal across MMOs where BiS is concerned). Good luck with whatever MMO you end up landing in.. because it's going to be essentially the same OR worse.

Edited by Andryah
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No. There is now a vendor that has 252 gear on Odessen, and on the previous version of PTS there was a vendor on Odessen that had 248 gear.

 

If the components to craft 258 gear only drop in MM GOTM, the devs would never be able to balance the encounter for a group that is in a mix of 248 - 258 gear, which is how every other MM op was designed (assuming that players would, as they progressed, be in a mix of gear ratings.)

 

So yeah, that's exactly the way to test the difficulties. Very few teams hit the enrage timer on MM Tyth, if any, without Crystals and in only 248 gear. As they increase their supply of Masterwork Shards through doing dailies when they are not raiding, and Unassembled Components from GSF, PVP, and disintegrating crates they earn, they will acquire some 252 and 258 pieces, which over time will increase the # of teams able to clear Tyth, and then the cycle begins anew. MM Izax on the other hand, when it is re-tuned (it was already tuned for a group with 248 and 240 augments in its VM form) may need an average item rating much closer to 258 but that's to be expected.

 

We don't know exactly what "Forgotten Something" Tyth will drop, which will of course determine which pieces can be crafted first. There are some missing gear slots, Dulfy's info reveals that the same Forgotten somethings will be used in several different types of gear pieces, but even with the re-use that leaves some slots uncovered. For example, no boss in GOTM drops Belts, Boots, or Gloves, and Dulfy's info says Forgotten Bindings will be used in making the Belts/Boots/Gloves. So, its unclear where these Bindings will drop from. The implants and earpiece are also unaccounted for, as are their associated "Forgotten Curio."

 

The point is, MM ops groups will not have 258 gear on the first day because no one will have any Masterwork Shards yet, and before you even say it, yes, I know there will be people with tons of UCs stockpiled but whether that will translate into an entire suit on day 1 is highly doubtful due to the weekly cap on conversion of UCs to MWS.

 

^^ Quote worthy.

 

A sane and patient set of comments from phalczen.....

 

.... in an otherwise insane series of demands and rants by what appears to be a rather small faction within the PvP player base. A player special interest group that (as was pointed out in earlier discussions by someone else... where only ~10% of PvP players are even playing in 248s this far in to 5.x) wants what it wants and to hell with any other player demographic, AND flies in the face of all conventional logic and wisdom where MMOs and BiS are discussed together.

 

Probably a waste of time though.. because the intractable who essentially want their gear for little or no time or effort are not listening.. only condemning every comment by every player that does not fit their personal narrative.

Edited by Andryah
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Save it. Very few players, even PvPers, are buying your dramatic performance on this topic.

 

You want it so you can quickly and easily gear all your many alts in 258s. You have said so in the discussions about the new gear. You are bent that you will have to actually work for BiS for your alts (which is something that is practically universal across MMOs where BiS is concerned). Good luck with whatever MMO you end up landing in.. because it's going to be essentially the same OR worse.

 

I feel like you are simplifying the issues I have with SWTOR and the changes they have made/are making but no reason for me to try to change the narrative you have created in your mind of me and what it is I want/don't want for this game.

 

That being said, the design goals of SWTOR have changed, essentially the carpet has been ripped out from under our feet. I find the changes unacceptable and the direction the game is going in not for me. Whether these changes on SWTOR are "universal" or not for MMOs, it doesn't matter to me. Key word is "me" in all of this.

 

I do find the present gear grind awful, I do find it uninspiring, I despise heavy reliance on RNG for gearing and I put my money where my mouth is: I dropped my sub. It's not as simple as me just wanting to get BiS for all my alts quickly and easily, that's not the full truth of why I am unhappy with SWTOR.

 

Maybe that will matter more to them, me dropping my sub but I doubt it. And that's fine. it's a game, and when a game becomes work and a chore, or NOT fun it's time to stop playing it. Not like it's the first time I have stopped playing SWTOR. I understand it is subjective what we like/dislike and I probably have vented emotionally a bit lately but I am past that point now.

 

What I will say is if others enjoy the direction the game appears to be heading, that's cool. It just doesn't fit how I like to play, nor will these changes improve the game for me. Better I prepare for the fall now, and bail out sooner than later. hence i lost inspiration to play, and took the necessary steps to express my displeasure to BW and EA by dropping my sub which has been active and running non-stop for 6+ years.

 

As for your opinion on MMOs, I have to agree the MMO market is sparse right now. I tried WOW, and piddle around a tad there but as in the past I never really could get far into it. It just never sucks me in like SWTOR once did and WAR, Everquest, EQ2 too. Who knows, maybe one of the newer games will end up being decent! Guess when the time comes I will find out.

 

And who knows? Maybe in the future I will come back to play SWTOR and it will have gone in a direction that I find enjoyable again.

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And who knows? Maybe in the future I will come back to play SWTOR and it will have gone in a direction that I find enjoyable again.

 

Come back two weeks after 6.0 drops and you can gear all your alts in the new 264 green random drops people are dumping on the GTNs for 20K each. That solves your problem in a manner in which you appear to prefer... essentially free gear. :)

 

Me.. I am simply going to continue to enjoy the game and play the game because I understand the new 252/258 gear is simply a time and effort trap that the non-critical thinking player will believe they simply must have because it is there. When 6.0 drops.. I will do exactly what I, and my guild, did when 5.0 dropped ---> ignore the poorly deployed method of grinding crates for gear.. and instead equip all characters in the newest craftables (which will likely be 270s, san set bonus, and very easy to craft from day one).. then begin work on building a guild factory to bring everyone's mains to BiS (which will likely begin at 280) and even backfill some alts that are played as secondary mains.

Edited by Andryah
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^^ Quote worthy.

 

A sane and patient set of comments from phalczen.....

 

.... in an otherwise insane series of demands and rants by what appears to be a rather small faction within the PvP player base. A player special interest group that (as was pointed out in earlier discussions by someone else... where only ~10% of PvP players are even playing in 248s this far in to 5.x) wants what it wants and to hell with any other player demographic, AND flies in the face of all conventional logic and wisdom where MMOs and BiS are discussed together.

 

Probably a waste of time though.. because the intractable who essentially want their gear for little or no time or effort are not listening.. only condemning every comment by every player that does not fit their personal narrative.

 

When you agree with it, it's "sane" and "patient" and when you disagree with a post it's "trolling" or "pejorative." Basically you insult the ones you don't agree with and compliment the ones you do. Not really a very constructive way to hold discussions imo.

 

You can support the decisions BW makes with the gear changes over the last few years, but one thing that is no coincidence is the player base is dropping. I find it hard to believe these changes have nothing to do with this. Pretty sure they are connected.

 

My opinion is you are going to see more erosion of the player base after the gearing changes are made if they add more grind and make it harder to gear alts. This pattern has occurred every time they have added more gear grind whether it was with RNG or other methods to slow up gearing.

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My opinion is you are going to see more erosion of the player base after the gearing changes are made if they add more grind and make it harder to gear alts. This pattern has occurred every time they have added more gear grind whether it was with RNG or other methods to slow up gearing.

 

Ignoring and refusing to even quote your attempt at bait in the first two paragraphs ....

 

One thing we can probably agree on I believe.. we do not accept each other opinions as valid. ;)

 

The difference between us being.. you are quiting over this new gear, and I am not (I'll just ignore it and play on). Different approaches by different players in an MMO to a challenge ... who would have thought?

Edited by Andryah
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Ignoring and refusing to even quote your attempt at bait in the first two paragraphs ....

 

One thing we can probably agree on I believe.. we do not accept each other opinions as valid. ;)

 

The difference between us being.. you are quiting over this new gear, and I am not (I'll just ignore it and play on). Different approaches by different players in an MMO to a challenge ... who would have thought?

 

Andryah, what exactly do you do in game?

 

I've read many of your posts and from what I can gleam you don't do progression PVE and you sparsely pvp (only if your friends ask/force you to, if I recall correctly).

 

I know you enjoy playing the GTN and I think you enjoy decorating, maybe running through the story, or do casual group content?

 

I'm genuinely curious because you seem to have a lot of opinions on the changes to gearing and yet nothing you mention doing in game has any reliance on having decent gear, much less BIS gear.

Edited by alexsamma
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