SWTOR, Learn From ESO!

[Mournblood]

This is a very common tactic in gaming forums. When denigrating one studio, you puff up and put another studio on a pedestal as the god to be worshipped by all players... I guess as some sore of credibility contrast. It's disingenuous and deceptive.

 

In reality every studio steps in it at times, they just do it in different ways. They are all flawed in my experience, and players need to learn the quirks about each studio and adapt to it.. because it's unlikely to change. If you cannot adapt to the shortcomings of any given studio.. best to just not take part in their products and services.

 

This entire thread, which I don't think you bothered to read, isn't about Bethesda, nor is it about criticizing Bioware to make another studio look good. In my first post here, for example, I mention CDPR, but it wasn't as a contrast or a comparison to Bioware. I was instead contrasting genres - RPGs vs MMOs - and how I think that MMOs are ultimately doomed to failure. I base that conclusion on the experience of playing 10 different MMOs over nearly two decades.

 

To your point, however, I stated as much in my post that "all MMOs are fundamentally flawed and perhaps ill-suited for a cross-demographic of players". SWTOR's shortcomings have as much to do with bad development decisions as it does the stranglehold that EA has on their resources. ESO nearly failed when it was launched, but that studio decided to re-invest to fix it instead of abandoning it. While they are doing much better now, there are still huge criticisms with ESO like the paywall for microtransactions. Bethesda doesn't do MMOs (Fallout 76 notwithstanding), but anyone who's played any of their games knows that their QA department is virtually non-existent evidenced by the ridiculous amount of bugs that get released with each of their games. I can therefore only imagine the problems that are going to crush their first attempt to MMO-ize Fallout (which for the record, I think is a very bad decision on their part).

 

The bottom line here, and really the point of the OP, is that players love this game despite its many flaws and failures. They WANT to see it succeed, even though the reality is that this game is one step away from maintenance mode, and is essentially on borrowed time. For my part, and after subscribing to this game for nearly 6 years, I'm leaving the game with some fond memories intact before the axe falls. But I'm not going to another MMO (SWTOR was my 10th). Instead I'm going to stick with RPGs going forward, which for me at least is a far more rewarding and less frustrating experience that isn't subject to all the influences and pressures that MMOs suffer. It might be hubris, but there's wisdom in that decision that I think more players could benefit from.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Mournblood

[kodrac]

A studio that develops Anthem (a AAA title with huge influx of resources) gets scraps...thats rich. It is this game that gets scraps, by whatever "genius" individual's decision. This is why we cant have nice things.

 

What are we getting at SWTOR? Scraps. Dragon Age? Scraps. Mass Effect? Scraps. But Anthem... whoa, hold the phone. Like I said. Too many fingers in too many pies. Only focusing on that next maybe great, maybe not so great pie. Compared to Zenimax which has ESO and... ESO. And they're focusing on... wait for it... ESO. Which of these games is doing well? ESO. Notice a trend yet?

Edited October 9, 2018 by kodrac

[Rion_Starkiller]

Isn't DA4 the "next big thing" after Anthem? I could be wrong, but that was my impression

[FlameYOL]

Isn't DA4 the "next big thing" after Anthem? I could be wrong, but that was my impression

 

It is, according to a post Mr.Hudson did on the Bioware site they're working one ME and DA related things, for the former I think they mean the last ME novel and not a new game, at least now in the near future. For DA though? I'm betting it'll be their next project after Anthem launches, I wouldn't expect to hear anything about it until after Anthem's launch though.

[kodrac]

It is, according to a post Mr.Hudson did on the Bioware site they're working one ME and DA related things, for the former I think they mean the last ME novel and not a new game, at least now in the near future. For DA though? I'm betting it'll be their next project after Anthem launches, I wouldn't expect to hear anything about it until after Anthem's launch though.

 

Which means the focus will shift and all the other games in their portfolio will get scraps.... because EA.

[MandFlurry]

Oh my guess, you've never played a bethesda RPG at release, SKyrim, or any of the fallout games, or any of the Elder scroll Games at release?

 

Why do you think there are community made patches to fix crap in their games. Not saying doesnt happen to other studios. But my god the a-s-s kissing of Bethesda is strong in this thread.

 

What the Hell are you talking about?? Now your bs'ing about what i have done as far as actual jobs and beta work. Stop ur Bs. Because you can have Opinions, but DONT Ever present a persons life as fact, when you know Nothing that you are talking about, and you sure as hell as don't know me.

 

Don't post BS.

[Lium]

And if you visit the ESO forums, it is nothing but complaining. As it is here, as it is on the WoW forums, and as it is on the FFXIV forums.

 

You probably notice a pattern.

[Raansu]

Too bad I can't get into ESO. The combat, animations, the skill system....everything about it just irks me, which sucks since I love the ES games.

[Andryah]

This entire thread, which I don't think you bothered to read, isn't about Bethesda, nor is it about criticizing Bioware to make another studio look good. In my first post here, for example, I mention CDPR, but it wasn't as a contrast or a comparison to Bioware. I was instead contrasting genres - RPGs vs MMOs - and how I think that MMOs are ultimately doomed to failure. I base that conclusion on the experience of playing 10 different MMOs over nearly two decades.

 

Oh I have read the thread.. every word of it.

 

And my comment stands.... because in spite of your view of the threads purpose (and I don't disagree on that... only on the way it was presented in a studio vs studio format) ... others quickly made the vanilla move to plow Bioware and puff up Bethesda. In point of fact.. from a purely customer centric point of view... all gaming studios suck in one manner or another... none of them walk on water and like it or not.. they all want money from you... one way or the other. But you would not know this by how the narratives get played out in discussion topics like this. Generally speaking.. in any gaming forum.. the incumbent studio is dirt and every other studio is golden. I have even seen MMO players move from MMO forum to MMO forum (using the same exact forum name) and simply shifing their narrative to attack the incumbent studio and puff up the competitors. It's almost like it is some sort of game to be played in and of itself.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Andryah

[ImmortalLowlife]

Too bad I can't get into ESO. The combat, animations, the skill system....everything about it just irks me, which sucks since I love the ES games.

 

I've thought about trying ESO, but I'm not really an MMO/gotta group for everything type of gamer. That's why I've never bothered with WoW or any other mmo. I like single player games, or games I can enjoy solo at my own pace, and everything I've heard tells me that isn't what ESO is.

 

I'm subbed here because it's star wars..... point blank period. I enjoy what this game offers so I stay subbed. Even when the devs focus is on stuff I don't play, I stay subbed to support the game. 7yrs later I still enjoy playing the vanilla stories. Could this game do better with content updates? DEFINITELY... but I'll hang around anyway because I'm still having fun. That's what it's all about.... fun. Your mileage may vary.

Edited October 10, 2018 by ImmortalLowlife

[Mournblood]

Oh I have read the thread.. every word of it.

 

And my comment stands.... because in spite of your view of the threads purpose (and I don't disagree on that... only on the way it was presented in a studio vs studio format) ... others quickly made the vanilla move to plow Bioware and puff up Bethesda. In point of fact.. from a purely customer centric point of view... all gaming studios suck in one manner or another... none of them walk on water and like it or not.. they all want money from you... one way or the other. But you would not know this by how the narratives get played out in discussion topics like this. Generally speaking.. in any gaming forum.. the incumbent studio is dirt and every other studio is golden. I have even seen MMO players move from MMO forum to MMO forum (using the same exact forum name) and simply shifing their narrative to attack the incumbent studio and puff up the competitors. It's almost like it is some sort of game to be played in and of itself.

 

I wouldn't know what people do on other MMO forums, so I can't comment on that. But your original post seemed a bit generalized and defensive. Upon clarification, I see your point that you were only calling out those who were specifically putting Bethesda on a pedestal, and similarly premised arguments. But whether or not the format of the OP lent itself to this, you admitted you understood the purpose of the OP, which was to say that he/she wants to see this game succeed, and was merely using the success story of another MMO as an example of how that might come true for this game. It's obviously wishful thinking, but you can't fault the OP for that.

 

I would also point out that Bioware is indefensible in their failure to make this game more of a success. Yes, EA has choked the life out of that studio financially, but it was Bioware who sold their company to them in the first place. No one forced them to do that. And subsequent poor development decisions have only driven the game further into the ground. Again, I don't hate Bioware, and I too wished it had turned out differently, but as much as players may want to ignore the reality of it, the writing is on the wall for this game.

 

Which brings me back to my original point that this being my 10th MMO, the reoccurring theme in all of them that have come and gone, and some that are still lingering out there, is that MMOs seem to be a poor venue for consistent quality. There's simply too many competing interests, from the players to the developers to, in this case, the publisher. Along with a myriad of other problems that come with putting thousands of people together with very different views, maturity levels, and reduced social inhibitions thanks to internet anonymity. If you want unbroken immersion, in an unblemished story that is yours and yours alone, free of acerbity, and truly rewarding entertainment without all the frustration and disappointment that players so frequently encounter in an MMO, I think RPGs are the better way to go.

Edited October 10, 2018 by Mournblood

[kodrac]

I've thought about trying ESO, but I'm not really an MMO/gotta group for everything type of gamer. That's why I've never bothered with WoW or any other mmo. I like single player games, or games I can enjoy solo at my own pace, and everything I've heard tells me that isn't what ESO is.

 

You kidding? ESO is even more solo friendly than this game. It just has 3 faction stories for leveling instead of 8 class stories. All zone dungeons and world bosses can be soloed. Even a lot of the group dungeons can be soloed on the lowest difficulty level if you know what you're doing.

[Raansu]

I've thought about trying ESO, but I'm not really an MMO/gotta group for everything type of gamer. That's why I've never bothered with WoW or any other mmo. I like single player games, or games I can enjoy solo at my own pace, and everything I've heard tells me that isn't what ESO is.

 

I'm subbed here because it's star wars..... point blank period. I enjoy what this game offers so I stay subbed. Even when the devs focus is on stuff I don't play, I stay subbed to support the game. 7yrs later I still enjoy playing the vanilla stories. Could this game do better with content updates? DEFINITELY... but I'll hang around anyway because I'm still having fun. That's what it's all about.... fun. Your mileage may vary.

 

They level scaling now, so its super solo friendly. You can go to any zone regardless of your level and the enemies scale to you. That said, I don't think ESO is a bad game at all either, I just personally couldn't find a way to enjoy it.

[jimmorrisson]

And if you visit the ESO forums, it is nothing but complaining. As it is here, as it is on the WoW forums, and as it is on the FFXIV forums.

 

You probably notice a pattern.

 

ESO, WOW, FF14 are in-house titles.

 

SWTOR is a licensed brand, licensed under the Lucas-era no less. Licensing Star Wars was and probably still is costly. There is also that matter that Lucas-era Lucasfilm and Disney Lucasfilm have dramatically different ideas of what Star Wars is and what should be.

 

If the sun was not setting on this game the current gearing system would be gone and we would have 6.0 by now.

Edited October 11, 2018 by jimmorrisson

[Darth_Advent]

I'm ever more open to the theory that everything this game makes over a certain target is funneled into Anthem whilst the crew left at BA are doing their best with Papa EA's allowance money they get back for a budget. Every time I see a developer livestream I get this sense that they're painfully aware of their limitations and are resigned to their fate but still want to have a little bit of fun riding the rails of destiny. Doesn't mean that their best consists of great ideas or can't be lambasted, but they're under no delusions about getting anything resembling the support Zenimax gives ESO.

 

I'm mostly still around because I'm ponderously slow at video games. I'll futz around and smell the roses so much that it takes me 50 hours to finish games that people say should be a 20 hour experience max. I still haven't caught up all 8 characters I made to see the story from different dialog recognized perspectives, and I get dizzy thinking about the people who have run out of alt slots on multiple servers. If I weren't such a tortoise fond of scenic routes, though, I'd already be gone for lack of stuff to see. It doesn't surprise me at all that the pipeline of new content is just too sluggish for the average locust.

[Velarax]

I would be content with regular releases of Chapters. I would like, however, more multi-player options.

[Ardrossan]

You kidding? ESO is even more solo friendly than this game. It just has 3 faction stories for leveling instead of 8 class stories. All zone dungeons and world bosses can be soloed. Even a lot of the group dungeons can be soloed on the lowest difficulty level if you know what you're doing.

 

Good to know. Like immortal, I also am wary of MMOs that require a lot of grouping. I figured this game with its emphasis on story spoiled me for others that don't have that.

 

Do they use a lot of VAs or cutscenes? What's the story itself like comparable to swtor storytelling [in vanilla]? Is there a F2P option? Is it easier to run than swtor ie. the engine?

 

Unlike a lot of others here, I'm not in this game because it's star wars. If you want great storytelling, Star Wars has NEVER been the first place you should look. The stories turned out to be surprisingly good, but it was despite the IP, not because of it.

[FlameYOL]

Do they use a lot of VAs or cutscenes? What's the story itself like comparable to swtor storytelling [in vanilla]? Is there a F2P option? Is it easier to run than swtor ie. the engine?

 

I played ESO for a bit and it does have a ton of lore, The Elder Scrolls lore but still quite good lore. The cutscenes aren't like SWTOR however, once you click on a NPC you'll see him and have dialogue options but he'll just stand there and talk with the background behind him

. I haven't gotten very far though, I've only played it for like 10 hours and barely got out of one of the early-level zones. The game does not require a subscription, from what I remember reading back in the day you do have to buy the DLC however you can still apparently do endgame content without, you unlock the DLC if you subscribe but unlike SWTOR once your sub ends you lose access to them unless you bought them with crowns, ESO's version of CC, expansions need to be bought though even if you're a subscriber as well as the base game. Essentially it's a B2P game as opposed to subscription based like SWTOR, and the game is better optimized than SWTOR from my experience on it.

[Andryah]

I'm ever more open to the theory that everything this game makes over a certain target is funneled into Anthem whilst the crew left at BA are doing their best with Papa EA's allowance money they get back for a budget.

 

You are not exactly wrong here... but you are also not right, due to wrong assumptions on how companies actually fund operations.

 

How Corporations Work 101:

 

1) Development and ongoing support for a product or service is planned and funded via an annual operations budget (in advance of any revenue earned). It will generally be based on projected revenue vs target margin rates to establish a cost baseline for the operations budget. That cost baseline becomes the operations budget for the year and must fund all resources required for the product or service. This will typically get reviewed quarterly to adjust operations budget up or down as needed, depending on revenue actuals (ie: the difference above or below the plan).

 

2) Revenue is earned from sales of products/services (an MMO is largely a service) and gets rolled up quarterly and reported as gross revenue, and is then adjusted to net revenue based on generally accepted accounting rules, and is audited for compliance by an outside auditing firm. For a large company like EA, with many revenue streams, these are further aggregated at the top level for investor reporting (they may or may not break out specific revenue streams, and typically do not these days).

 

Hence.. there is NO actual revenue theft from one product or service to another in a large corporation like EA. All revenue rolls up to an aggregate and all cost plans are project or product/service specific based on what the company plans to do for the year (this is treated as an informed investment for an projected return). Both SWTOR and Anthem, and any other projects under way each have their own operations budget, is not directly peeled off from revenue like you believe. Anthem for example.. creates no revenue right now.. so it is a project development budget. SWTOR does generate revenue and hence it's budget is considered an operations budget not a project development budget. And you typically do not steal budget from one to fund another.... not in cash rich large holding companies.

 

What players here should be hoping for is that 6.0 is actually a bigger expac then normal in development (and as such takes longer to deploy) and would be it's own separate development budget above and beyond the normal operations costs to patch and maintain the game. Constraints on total human assets available in EA may play a role in this to some degree (as they would not necessarily hire talent for a one off project, unless they did not have the resources in house to begin with). This is called fungibility of resources, is very common in corporations today, and has nothing to do with operations cost or revenue per se. Of course this hope of a bigger expac may or may not pan out... only time will tell. Until then.. none of us have enough visibility into what EA is doing across all it's products and services. But it would be normal for them to invest more in products and services where they actually see upside growth potential. They may or may not see upside growth potential for SWTOR. Unlike Blizzard, which has a large part of it's revenue stream derived from WoW and hence must continue to develop it and milk it for all it is feasible to achieve...... SWTOR is a small part of EAs book of business... and always has been.

 

It would be interesting to see what EA actually believes the upside to SWTOR to be, and if they would invest to capture that upside. My guess.. given EA is not an MMO centric gaming company.... they are more pragmatic and reserved about investments in MMOs compared to Blizzard (which honestly would probably get miserably plowed by investors if WoW collapsed). EA does in fact give revelations (even if they lack details) in their investment reports as to where they see the best growth potential in their book of business... and it's NOT MMOs. They are chasing mobile gaming and non-MMO online gaming as their primary growth markets... and there is plenty of good analysis of the gaming markets to support this push by EA. From an investor perspective.. EA has actually been doing well in this respect. I know this does not please MMO players per se.. but it is what it is.

[Ardrossan]

I played ESO for a bit and it does have a ton of lore, The Elder Scrolls lore but still quite good lore. The cutscenes aren't like SWTOR however, once you click on a NPC you'll see him and have dialogue options but he'll just stand there and talk with the background behind him

. I haven't gotten very far though, I've only played it for like 10 hours and barely got out of one of the early-level zones. The game does not require a subscription, from what I remember reading back in the day you do have to buy the DLC however you can still apparently do endgame content without, you unlock the DLC if you subscribe but unlike SWTOR once your sub ends you lose access to them unless you bought them with crowns, ESO's version of CC, expansions need to be bought though even if you're a subscriber as well as the base game. Essentially it's a B2P game as opposed to subscription based like SWTOR, and the game is better optimized than SWTOR from my experience on it.

 

Thanks! Might give it a shot. Sub's ending this weekend till xmas anyway.

[Darth_Advent]

Nothing that actually contradicts the point

Bioware needs Anthem to be a success or the brand is getting the guillotine like so many other sacrifices in EA's mass grave of acquired development studios. Whether it's actively pilfering the budget of other games or other games' revenue are being invested in it at the expense of reinvesting in something like SWTOR is only important for pedantic douchebag scorecards. If TOR hadn't already been written off as a third string asset because EA expected to dethrone WoW then it might be getting a bigger budget for more revenue in the future but it's clear they'd rather not allocate resources to support TOR and bother competing with Zenimax or Blizzard on that front.

 

And while it makes sense for EA not to do so when their major income streams are elsewhere, that by no means implies they deserve credit or praise for understanding the marketplace (gamers). Their ridiculous stance on single-player games being dead and apparent belief that they can thumb their nose at sovereign states who want them to comply with regulations are just two recent examples of their benighted hubris.

[Floredon]

They might, if EA invested in SWTOR development. SWTOR has a skeleton crew. This is an upper management issue. Why do you think Ohlen and the doctors left?

[Mournblood]

Their ridiculous stance on single-player games being dead and apparent belief that they can thumb their nose at sovereign states who want them to comply with regulations are just two recent examples of their benighted hubris.

 

CDPR has certainly proven them wrong about single-player games. Bioware did too in the beginning when they were still Bioware and not this Borg drone they've become.

[Sarova]

to have a similar towing capacity to an F150 (ESO). Size matters...

I had to look that up. Now I want one! Sadly we Brits don't have that You're analogy was spot on though.

 

Money can't be learned though.

Exactly this. SWTOR will never be able to offer a similar gaming experience to what I've seen of ESO. It would take an entirely new game, but I don't think the investment is there.