Next tier only available from crafting? Guess I'm quitting unless BOLSTER IS CAPPED

[jimmorrisson]

... already suffered through 5.0 - 5.9 and the debacle of rng crates and severe grind. I quit for a year after 5.0 came out because of how terrible it was. I came back after you made some adjustments but it is still a bad system.

 

The new augments are terrible enough. Releasing difficult to obtain gear levels that require difficult to gain materials is not content. I'm not going to try and spend 30 hours a week times how many alts to get them to have best gear to compete in pvp.

 

...

 

Did the fact you had to merge servers not register? Does the fact that the merged servers now have less population than harbinger did by itself a little over year ago not give you a hint about player dissatisfaction?

 

...

 

Pvp players had 208 gear with expertise whereas pve players would try and get 216 or even 220 gear, for example in the 4.0 era.

 

... I warned you in closed 5.0 beta in 2016 and you ignored me.

The mass exodus over q1 2017 proved me correct.

Reformatted and edited for emphasis - I agree with all of this and would add the intentionally overly complex gearing system added shortly thereafter:

 

The Unassembled Component system which features a not-currency "unassembled components" which alongside earning lottery crates, involves the player to run back and forth between rooms to upgrade gear.

 

I posted suggestions on how to streamline the current system here and here. However here we are two years later still raging against a anti-player system which by now should be clear to all is "working as intended".

Edited September 26, 2018 by jimmorrisson

[Totemdancer]

Overwatch has a horrendous grind that tries to burn you out and make you buy things, but it's exclusively for chances at shiny things that don't give you any game-mechanics advantages, just social ones.

 

Maybe the PvP part of this game should work like that?

 

Yes I agree, swtor would be better if it worked like that. Overwatch has no gear. It is totally skill based pvp.

[Totemdancer]

I would add a third compromise choice:

 

3. Cosmetic gear, titles, decos, etc. and a currency like UC's that are only useful in PvE encounters. The implication being that people enter WZ's with same Ilvl, but PvE-ers still have incentives to participate and feel rewarded. Tis a compromise, albeit imperfect since it doesn't resolve the AFK incentive problem.

 

Dasty

 

Yes, that could work.

[DenariusJay]

I used to adopt the opinion that some gear grind in pvp was okay. But that was back in 4.0 when getting a full set of 208 pvp gear was very very doable.

 

The new system since 5.0 isn't good for PvP'rs. Either put bolster at the max cap so everyone is even or reintroduce pvp gear again that is insanely easy to farm like in 4.0 (this would probably make lowbies and midbies bustling again)

[Totemdancer]

I used to adopt the opinion that some gear grind in pvp was okay. But that was back in 4.0 when getting a full set of 208 pvp gear was very very doable.

 

The new system since 5.0 isn't good for PvP'rs. Either put bolster at the max cap so everyone is even or reintroduce pvp gear again that is insanely easy to farm like in 4.0 (this would probably make lowbies and midbies bustling again)

 

This is what I think as well

[omaan]

Yes, that could work.

 

Yes it would be nice if they stop forcing us to play different types of content they want us to play by putting gearing behind it and just put cosmetics in pve to make incentives to play it. But wait they spend their resources only for cartel market's cosmetics and obviously they aren't going to provide any cosmetics for doing game content. Thats why they are using gear instead of cosmetics to make people play what devs want.

Edited September 26, 2018 by omaan

[Liquor]

dedicated pvp players will do ops to gain the gear day 1. cycling all their toons through the operations to gain the mats. in a couple weeks time, all their pvp toons will be min/maxed in T5 gear. I plan on doing this, and I have no complaints about it. Gear doesnt make a player good in PvP.

 

others will lag behind and only complain.

 

been like this since day 1. nothing is different with the T5 gear system coming to us.

 

knowing how to work bolster and use it to your advantage while under geared does have its advantages. but knowing the maps, specs, and abilities of your character and the enemy is more important than T5 gear.

 

remember when bolster was 150 rated gear? and all the complaints about it then? bolster was above the max gear rating in the game. gear didnt matter in PvP - yet the same players that complain about T5 gear complained then . . .

 

or when naked PvP was better than geared PVP? I members, you memberz?

 

.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Liquor

[Totemdancer]

dedicated pvp players will do ops to gain the gear day 1. cycling all their toons through the operations to gain the mats. in a couple weeks time, all their pvp toons will be min/maxed in T5 gear. I plan on doing this, and I have no complaints about it. Gear doesnt make a player good in PvP.

 

others will lag behind and only complain.

 

been like this since day 1. nothing is different with the T5 gear system coming to us.

 

knowing how to work bolster and use it to your advantage while under geared does have its advantages. but knowing the maps, specs, and abilities of your character and the enemy is more important than T5 gear.

 

remember when bolster was 150 rated gear? and all the complaints about it then? bolster was above the max gear rating in the game. gear didnt matter in PvP - yet the same players that complain about T5 gear complained then . . .

 

or when naked PvP was better than geared PVP? I members, you memberz?

 

.

 

I’ll quit the game before I have to do that.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I members, you memberz?

 

I never noticed, because I'm not an min-maxer who would find out that.

 

I never understood, by the way, why there has always have to be a "z" if one wants to sound "cool".

[Rion_Starkiller]

I never noticed, because I'm not an min-maxer who would find out that.

 

I never understood, by the way, why there has always have to be a "z" if one wants to sound "cool".

 

I could be wrong, but I think it's a Savanna Nix accent from Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Liquor]

I never noticed, because I'm not an min-maxer who would find out that.

 

I never understood, by the way, why there has always have to be a "z" if one wants to sound "cool".

 

I could be wrong, but I think it's a Savanna Nix accent from Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.

 

south park reference...

 

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

 

lots of crappers in min/max that are bad. then you have those still in 308's working those 248's to death.

class knowledge is more important than gear. but gear is still key,

ranked. you will need to be geared. it matters more than when in regs.

[Kissakias]

i think i read somewhere that they will remove the bolster from PVE

cant remove bolster of pvp (and it was from start and is in all mmos that have unleveled arenas and WZs) simply coz cant compet a lvl 20 or 50 with a 70.

crafting is good, since they dont have many devs for story or anything more content, IF they cancel the PVE bolster ist logical to make the next tier hard to obtain, since the new tier full set will make very easier the hard FPs and the HM OPs and they will make the NiM OPs a bit available to all.

[Kissakias]

south park reference...

 

lots of crappers in min/max that are bad. then you have those still in 308's working those 248's to death.

class knowledge is more important than gear. but gear is still key,

ranked. you will need to be geared. it matters more than when in regs.

 

those that have very lower lvl armor and win, they cheat big time, and change your sign, opers are overpowered, saber holders are.

[thomasgtott]

south park reference...

 

 

 

lots of crappers in min/max that are bad. then you have those still in 308's working those 248's to death.

class knowledge is more important than gear. but gear is still key,

ranked. you will need to be geared. it matters more than when in regs.

 

The whole "skill beats gear" argument is nonsense. Some players know when to use dcd's better, and how to escape better so skill differences are in the margins, but we're all pushing the same buttons and it's a numbers game.

 

If getting competitive gear starts requiring a 20hr-a-week grind or impossible-to-get mats, well, I have a life and other things to do.

Edited September 29, 2018 by thomasgtott

[Totemdancer]

The whole "skill beats gear" argument is nonsense. Some players know when to use dcd's better, and how to escape better so skill differences are in the margins, but we're all pushing the same buttons and it's a numbers game.

 

If getting competitive gear starts requiring a 20hr-a-week grind or impossible-to-get mats, well, I have a life and other things to do.

 

All things being equal and gear matters. But things are never equal.

That doesn’t mean you don’t need the best gear because you will come up against people who are as good as you or better and if they have better gear it is an automatic win for them and that’s no fun for you.

I hate losing an encounter just because they had better gear. It makes me not want to play.

 

As for competitive gear. I wish it took 20 hours a week. At the moment it take about 3 months to gear playing 40 hours a week in pvp. That’s assuming you’re a new player with no Alts and not enough credit to buy boost.

Bioware don’t seem to understand that people have lives outside of this game or that they don’t want to come home from work to another job. People play video game for fun, not to grind to grind gear with stale and repetitive content.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Kiesu]

As for competitive gear. I wish it took 20 hours a week. At the moment it take about 3 months to gear playing 40 hours a week in pvp. That’s assuming you’re a new player with no Alts and not enough credit to buy boost.

Bioware don’t seem to understand that people have lives outside of this game or that they don’t want to come home from work to another job. People play video game for fun, not to grind to grind gear with stale and repetitive content.

I know what you mean. The gear grind is currently easiest for raiders, and the hardest for PVPers. If one is looking to gear strictly trough PVP they're out of luck, it's such a slow slog I'd be already gone too if I wouldn't also be a raider. The gearing difference in speed is staggering between the two, it's like night and day. I'm still confused how they managed to make PVP so unrewarding.

 

Lowbie PVP is even worse, it grants next to nothing now, and the XP rewards are so small lvling trough just pvp takes like 10x longer than just doing whatever solo or fp content. When we still had PVP gear, we got rewarded tokens to buy endgame gear with. Now those tokens are gone and they didn't replace those rewards with anything, they're just missing. I like lowbie/midbie PVP but holy damn there is no point doing those either atm, you're just losing on time.

[fatsi]

While I am not into PVP so much, it is easy to imagine PVPers anger for all these gearfests. I am actually surprised PVPers did not ALL leave after 240 augments were introduced. PVP is never FAIR when you have to be super rich to aim high. (...since they can't all start nim progression.)

 

Yet, If I remember right, Eric said they MAY make expertise return, but I assume it would take half a year (optimistic guy here) so the game would have lost a lot of PVPers by then anyway.

 

 

Still, I am just going to offer my easy suggestion here.

 

Make an additional inventory tab just for PVP which is to get active ONLY IN WARZONES. Make it so that you can't put anything beyond 242s in this tab. Ta da!! Problem solved!

 

 

To the OP: "Capping" the bolster? Like how? Make it bolster all dps to (let's say) 1900 alactrity and critical ratings. OK, but what happens if for example, it is ideal for the x spec of y class to have 1600 alacrity and 1900 critical while it is ideal for the y spec of the z class to have nearly 1900 for both? Because, the last I checked, ideal stats for all classes of all disciplines were different. Wouldn't this cause certain classes to be favoured?

[Totemdancer]

Lowbie PVP is even worse, it grants next to nothing now, and the XP rewards are so small lvling trough just pvp takes like 10x longer than just doing whatever solo or fp content. When we still had PVP gear, we got rewarded tokens to buy endgame gear with. Now those tokens are gone and they didn't replace those rewards with anything, they're just missing. I like lowbie/midbie PVP but holy damn there is no point doing those either atm, you're just losing on time.

 

I see this too. I use to only level my pvp Alts in pvp so that I knew them inside and out by the time I got to level 65.

I would also be able to get enough med packs using the Comms and have Comms to buy the gear when I reached level 65.

I hardly see anyone in lowbie pvp anymore. The removal of rewards and slow XP is not enticing for people who need credits, XP or want to work towards gearing a level 70 character. Your time is better spent speed leveling to 70 and then starting to grind gear.

The way Bioware have approached pvp since 5.0 has really dimished the over all quality of players because people don’t learn their classes properly or how to pvp with them. Then Bioware make the problem even worse by removing any requirements to play ranked and encourage everyone to play it, even the newly minted level 70 players who’ve never pvped before. Not only has regular pvp been degraded significantly, but ranked is now worse than the quality of regular pvp before 5.0.

I’ve seen a few threads in the last few months calling for Bioware to do something. It seemed most people who posted supported the ideas presented in the threads. There have even been call outs on twitch asking Bioware to do something, but they are completely ignoring the subject and we cannot even get a comment from them. They obviously want the problem and topic to disappear because it’s against their gear grind model.

It’s become apparent to me and other people I’ve discussed this with, that Bioware honestly have no interest in the quality of pvp or players enjoyment of it. All they want is numbers in level 70 pvp to gear grind and have faster pops. What they don’t realise is this is having a negative affect on participation because people aren’t having fun playing in the low skill and gear grind environment they’ve created. More and more pvpers are leaving the game and they think they can keep us playing if they throw in bad match making, a Hutt Ball map and keep us grinding gear without addressing the bugs, the dysnc, the faulty matchmaking system or improving player enjoyment in regs and ranks.

For Bioware, it’s all about the holy grail of pop times. And that is the underlying problem with their whole approach and why pvp is failing to maintain players, quality and enjoyment.

This whole pvp of summer has been a massive waste of time if they don’t fix the underlying problems and I just don’t think they understand what they even are or they do and just don’t care. Plenty of feed back has been given to them on this forum, on reddit and on twitch channels like Snaves. Until they are willing to have a serious and honest discussion with the pvp player base, anything they do will continue to fail. And this is what’s going to happen if this proposed gearing system goes ahead in the manner theyve already said.

Crafting gear to pvp with is a pain, but trying to make pvp people play Master Mode Ops to get mats and schematics is just ludicrous. It will just hasten the death of pvp in the game as we will have another big exodus of part of the games player base, which in turn, hastens the demise of the game. Many people can see this happening, but for some reason Bioware can’t and it shows a complete lack of understanding players or what’s fun for us and a bit of arrogance on their part as well.

I have little faith in the direction Bioware are heading. I’ve been here since the start and seen all their blunders. The apathy I feel towards the game now reflects the apathy Bioware have towards player enjoyment. I’ve hardly logged in since the matchmaking changes because the system is terrible. I get no enjoyment playing in that environment and when I have logged in, there is hardly anyone on at that time. I’m seriously considering cancelling my sub for the first time in 7 years because I’ve gone from playing every day to playing once a week or not even that. If they add this proposed gearing system without pvpers in mind, I will be moving on.

[Totemdancer]

To the OP: "Capping" the bolster? Like how? Make it bolster all dps to (let's say) 1900 alactrity and critical ratings. OK, but what happens if for example, it is ideal for the x spec of y class to have 1600 alacrity and 1900 critical while it is ideal for the y spec of the z class to have nearly 1900 for both? Because, the last I checked, ideal stats for all classes of all disciplines were different. Wouldn't this cause certain classes to be favoured?

 

Bolster does not work that way.

Making Bolster the highest gear level or even above does not make everyone have the same stats.

You can still change your stats based on what gear you equip.

If you want more alacrity, you equip more alacrity with different enhancements or Augments or implants or ear.

That is how the current bolster system works.

It’s not based on class or spec. It’s based entirely on the gear you have equiped. The other stats are class bassed stats that are already in the game.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Totemdancer

[fatsi]

Bolster does not work that way.

Making Bolster the highest gear level or even above does not make everyone have the same stats.

You can still change your stats based on what gear you equip.

If you want more alacrity, you equip more alacrity with different enhancements or Augments or implants or ear.

That is how the current bolster system works.

It’s not based on class or spec. It’s based entirely on the gear you have equiped. The other stats are class bassed stats that are already in the game.

OK, sorry. I thought the gear above the bolster level were making the change.

[phalczen]

The gear grind is currently easiest for raiders, and the hardest for PVPers.

 

This isn't true. The gear grind is easiest for people who do a wide variety of content. If exclusive ground pvp'ers did just a little GSF, or planetary mission weeklies like CZ-198 and Ziost when its the daily bonus activity, or even Story Mode Gods from the Machine/Vet Mode Eternity Vault/Vet Mode Karagga's Palace, they would be have expanded access to CXP crates, CXP packs bound-to-legacy that can be traded to alts, unassembled Iokath tier 3 rating 242 tokens, and Unassembled Components. Just getting the 242 tokens themselves cuts the Unassembled Component cost for Gemini 248 pieces by nearly 60%. The skill hurdle for those three operations isn't so high for someone who knows their class well in pvp, and those three ops cover all 14 slots except for the implants. Besides, the only source of Lethal 52B mods, which is arguably BiS for tanks in pve or pvp, is command crates anyway, so regardless of playstyle, some supplementation by galactic command is required. If exclusive raiders did some pvp or some GSF, or even some flashpoints/uprsings, their supply of UCs and CMTs would be higher.

 

People can choose what they want to do, and what they enjoy, and some pvp'ers just don't enjoy KOTFE/KOTET chapters, or scripted raid encounters, or whatever. But people who play a variety of content in the game can and should gain gear from the system, as it exists now in 5.9.2b, more efficiently than those that choose one exclusive playstyle.

 

Its important to note that the little information we do know about Tier 5 (only crafted, schematics and materials exclusive to MM ops) seems to break that paradigm, for every playstyle, not just exclusive pvp'ers.

[fatsi]

Its important to note that the little information we do know about Tier 5 (only crafted, schematics and materials exclusive to MM ops) seems to break that paradigm, for every playstyle, not just exclusive pvp'ers.

Still, gear is already a big problem for PVP. PVPers shouldn't be forced to grind for gear to have their fun. Simply because it gets UNFAIR. Now, with the new changes, ranked PVPers that are also hardcore raiders or that are also hyper-rich will get a huge advantage in ranked PVP. While gear makes little difference in regs, (since a lot of ppl like me ruin it anyway) even 1 rating makes a lot of difference among highly experienced PVPers, especially for those who aim for the top. My point is, it does change every playstyle, but it BREAKS PVP making it even more UNFAIR than it already is.

[Andryah]

Still, gear is already a big problem for PVP. PVPers shouldn't be forced to grind for gear to have their fun. Simply because it gets UNFAIR.

 

What?

 

MMOs are by definition grinds of one form or another (even if only for resources or in game currency) .. and why is it that PvPers should be immune from a grind.. but everyone else has to grind it out?

 

Note: I am an advocate for making gear a non-factor in PvP (for practical reasons, not out of some scheme of "fairness") .... but I find your statement to come across as very entitled. And I do not advocate for a PvP environment that is "fair". The very nature of PvP is unfair to a large extent because you will always encounter players who you are overmatched/undermatched in one manner or another. In fact.. PvPers will expend a lot of time trying to gain any possible advantage... no matter how small.. in their pursuit of PvP. Even the server side calculations for each combat cycle are unfair in your definition because the calculations apply RNG to a hard coded variability range/chance in offense of defense each cycle.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Andryah

[Kiesu]

This isn't true. The gear grind is easiest for people who do a wide variety of content.

No, just do hardmode ops with weeklies and you get the second highest tier gear tokens, run cxp boost and and you simultaneously get the most amount of command boxes and gear tokens simultaneously. You get more boxes by just doing hm ops than you wold spending the same amount of time doing any heroics, fps or pvp activities.

 

Ofc, when you have lockout from the weekly ops you gotta so something else, but if you haven't yet they're your best source of gear. If you lack UC you can do Nim ops, since those are pretty much the only things that drop there, just multiplied.

Ofc, if you don't have the skill or the group to do hm/nim content, then you're naturally not gonna get any of that, and need to look for other activities for loot.

 

Even weekly sm ops are a great source of cxp and grants you gear tokens to turn in, they're just lower tier and probably not desirable if you are maxed on command levels already.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Kiesu

[Toraak]

No, just do hardmode ops with weeklies and you get the second highest tier gear tokens, run cxp boost and and you simultaneously get the most amount of command boxes and gear tokens simultaneously. You get more boxes by just doing hm ops than you wold spending the same amount of time doing any heroics, fps or pvp activities.

 

Ofc, when you have lockout from the weekly ops you gotta so something else, but if you haven't yet they're your best source of gear. If you lack UC you can do Nim ops, since those are pretty much the only things that drop there, just multiplied.

Ofc, if you don't have the skill or the group to do hm/nim content, then you're naturally not gonna get any of that, and need to look for other activities for loot.

 

Even weekly sm ops are a great source of cxp and grants you gear tokens to turn in, they're just lower tier and probably not desirable if you are maxed on command levels already.

 

This is false. The reason why doing multiple types of content is the fastest way to gear is because doing HM EV/KP, and sm GoTM, and doing PvP or GSF is the fastest way of currently getting gear. Doing it this way makes the crates irrelevant, unless your specifically looking for the 52B mods, or the 52 tanking enhancements (high endurance enhancements). You get the 242 tokens from the Ops, then get UC's from either PvP or GSF to upgrade those from 242's to 248's. Obviously the implants you can't do this with from those operations listed, however it speeds up the gearing time. Gearing solely from one activity will definitely take you longer to gear, and I truly believe BW did it this way intentionally to get people to play more the one type of content.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Toraak